Great read from Brad Oremland: NFL top 100 QBs of all time

[Surge89]

Fair enough we are just going have to differ on our opinions of Dungy. I would agree that Mora is not the best and for that matter Kubiak. But I just have a tough time looking the other way on a coach who resume, imo, is not that far off from BBs short of a ring for their respective coaching years till Dungy retired. And like I said at the top, imo, BBs and Dungy's resumes would look different in those years had '03 turned out different, or any other year were the colts were primed to win a SB, like '05 when folks pointed out that a lot of that loss fell on Dungy's shoulders, altho pitt was no pushover.

And for me there is nothing wrong in my book for given props to an all time great's coach. Indeed, every great QB on that list and especially the ones near the top had all time HOF coaches paired up with them. Its not like one of them was paired up with Brad Childress and he is given extra points for carrying Childress to the pantheon of the league. Every great QB needed a great coach.

Agreed.

Thank you for the discussion!

[amfootball]

Just because you can't win without good QB play doesn't mean that the QB can win without good support around him. Football is the ultimate team sport, regardless how important the QB position is. QBs don't win or lose games; teams do.

 

"QB wins" is nonsense.

I am not sure why you are trying to make this so black and white. Your first statement is WHY there is win/loss record for QBs. Their position influences the game the most. That does not mean they deserve 100 percent of the credit every time their team wins or loses but their play directly impacts the outcome of the game more than any other position in all of sports. Now if you want to talk about using a win/loss record as the only way to judge a QB than I would agree that would be a narrow view all things considered but it is still a factor in the process.

[amfootball]

Double post.

[amfootball]

Bill was on teams that won SBs or atleast playoff games that were quarterbacked by Testaverde, Kosar in his postprime, Simms, Hostetler, Bledsoe. It's not all Tom Brady. In fact, it's very little Tom Brady no matter how many bubbles that bursts.

As head coach of the Browns over five seasons, Bill benched Kosar as soon as he got there in 1991 and signed Testaverde and then released  Kosar at seasons end due to diminishing skills. He then coached Testaverde and made exactly two playoff games and won ONE with Testaverde as his QB beating the Bledsoe led Pats in the wild card round in 1994.

 

He was DC for all those other teams/QBs you listed and Parcells was head coach so you can give Bill credit for coaching up the D but not the Qbs or the direction of the team as that was all Parcells and the respective GMs.

 

As GM and HC and with Brady as his QB he has gone 21-8 with 4 titles and become the most success HC/QB duo in the history of the game.

[Gavin]

As head coach of the Browns over five seasons, Bill benched Kosar as soon as he got there in 1991 and signed Testaverde and them released  Kosar at seasons end due to diminishing skills. He then coached Testaverde and made exactly two playoff games and won ONE with Testaverde as his QB beating the Bledsoe led Pats in the wild card round in 1994.

 

He was DC for all those other teams/QBs you listed and Parcells was head coach so you can give Bill credit for coaching up the D but not the Qbs or the direction of the team as that was all Parcells and the respective GMs.

Coaches don't win football games. Football players that can execute do.

[amfootball]

Coaches don't win football games. Football players that can execute do.

I agree which is why I credit players more than coaches. That is not to say you don't need good coaching, you do, especially in football, but you have to have the players and the QB is paramount.

[Gavin]

I agree which is why I credit players more than coaches. That is not to say you don't need good coaching, you do, especially in football, but you have to have the players and the QB is paramount.

Coaches can definitely lose football games though...Example: mis-management of timeouts in crucial situations

[Shane Bond]

Coaches don't win football games. Football players that can execute do.

Coaches have the control to win football games by giving their players a chance to execute.

Ex: going for a fourth down vs punting.

[Gramz]

Coaches have the control to win football games by giving their players a chance to execute.

Ex: going for a fourth down vs punting.

Or sitting starters out of a game when a perfect season is on the line.

[Superman]

I am not sure why you are trying to make this so black and white. Your first statement is WHY there is win/loss record for QBs. Their position influences the game the most. That does not mean they deserve 100 percent of the credit every time their team wins or loses but their play directly impacts the outcome of the game more than any other position in all of sports. Now if you want to talk about using a win/loss record as the only way to judge a QB than I would agree that would be a narrow view all things considered but it is still a factor in the process.

 

No, it's actually NOT black and white, is my entire point. "QB wins" is a fallacy because it suggests that the outcome of the game rests entirely on the QB. The fact that the QB impacts the game more than any other player doesn't mean that the win/loss record should be fixed to the QB.

[BloodyChamp]

As head coach of the Browns over five seasons, Bill benched Kosar as soon as he got there in 1991 and signed Testaverde and then released Kosar at seasons end due to diminishing skills. He then coached Testaverde and made exactly two playoff games and won ONE with Testaverde as his QB beating the Bledsoe led Pats in the wild card round in 1994.

He was DC for all those other teams/QBs you listed and Parcells was head coach so you can give Bill credit for coaching up the D but not the Qbs or the direction of the team as that was all Parcells and the respective GMs.

As GM and HC and with Brady as his QB he has gone 21-8 with 4 titles and become the most success HC/QB duo in the history of the game.

Damage control city ^^^

I'm not saying Bill and Phil won a SB, period. I'm saying that Bill can coach and win without a star quarterback. His extensive history before Tom proves that. Spin it so that him not being the HC negates it all you want but it doen't negate it.

He was the DC. He had a huge hand in all of those teams in spite of the quarterbacks. Now he's a HC, a defensive minded one no less. That only gives more merit to his preNew England success, not take from it.

Meanwhile the only reason Cleveland didn't work out was because Art Modell went senile.

[Yehoodi]

Damage control city ^^^

I'm not saying Bill and Phil won a SB, period. I'm saying that Bill can coach and win without a star quarterback. His extensive history before Tom proves that. Spin it so that him not being the HC negates it all you want but it doen't negate it.

He was the DC. He had a huge hand in all of those teams in spite of the quarterbacks. Now he's a HC, a defensive minded one no less. That only gives more merit to his preNew England success, not take from it.

Meanwhile the only reason Cleveland didn't work out was because Art Modell went senile.

 

Interesting thoughts there BloodyChamp . . . perhaps we can play along too, just want to make sure I am following your line of thinking.

 

So outside of the Colts Coach Caldwell was the QB coach and OC for the Baltimore Ravens the year they won the SB and as head coach of the Detroit Lions help lead them to a 11-5 season and playoff berth.  Using that logic of yours what would an independent person who has no ties to the colts or pats think about Coach Caldwell's contribution to the colts when he was the head coach of the colts while Manning was under center in 2009 and 2010? 

[Superman]

Interesting thoughts there BloodyChamp . . . perhaps we can play along too, just want to make sure I am following your line of thinking.

 

So outside of the Colts Coach Caldwell was the QB coach and OC for the Baltimore Ravens the year they won the SB and as head coach of the Detroit Lions help lead them to a 11-5 season and playoff berth.  Using that logic of yours what would an independent person who has no ties to the colts or pats think about Coach Caldwell's contribution to the colts when he was the head coach of the colts while Manning was under center in 2009 and 2010? 

 

Why is that relevant? Why is an independent person more qualified? What's better, a biased but informed opinion, or an unbiased but uninformed opinion?

[BloodyChamp]

Interesting thoughts there BloodyChamp . . . perhaps we can play along too, just want to make sure I am following your line of thinking.

So outside of the Colts Coach Caldwell was the QB coach and OC for the Baltimore Ravens the year they won the SB and as head coach of the Detroit Lions help lead them to a 11-5 season and playoff berth. Using that logic of yours what would an independent person who has no ties to the colts or pats think about Coach Caldwell's contribution to the colts when he was the head coach of the colts while Manning was under center in 2009 and 2010?

Bill has been coaching in the NFL at 1 level or another for 36 years and the results have been pretty much the same. If I had to give an answer on based on a fraction of that time then I would merely guess that the 2014 Lions were a fluke. Teams like that coming off of a wild man coach usually do well for a year when a guy like Caldwell comes in. It rarely amounts to anything else though. Wade Phillips, Romeo Crennell, etc.

[amfootball]

Damage control city ^^^

I'm not saying Bill and Phil won a SB, period. I'm saying that Bill can coach and win without a star quarterback. His extensive history before Tom proves that. Spin it so that him not being the HC negates it all you want but it doen't negate it.

He was the DC. He had a huge hand in all of those teams in spite of the quarterbacks. Now he's a HC, a defensive minded one no less. That only gives more merit to his preNew England success, not take from it.

Meanwhile the only reason Cleveland didn't work out was because Art Modell went senile.

lol. Damage control.

 

Bill was a HC for 5 seasons and had a losing record with exactly one playoff win. With Brady he has become the best in the game and arguable the greatest of all time. End of story ... to be continued IF Bill continues coaching post-Brady.

[amfootball]

No, it's actually NOT black and white, is my entire point. "QB wins" is a fallacy because it suggests that the outcome of the game rests entirely on the QB. The fact that the QB impacts the game more than any other player doesn't mean that the win/loss record should be fixed to the QB.

I don't know anyone who views the W-L record like that. Anyone watching the game understands the QB does not control everything but his influence is greater than any other player in any other team sport and most factors into a team winning. Like I said, it is one factor of many when judging a QB.

[BloodyChamp]

lol. Damage control.

Bill was a HC for 5 seasons and had a losing record with exactly one playoff win. With Brady he has become the best in the game and arguable the greatest of all time. End of story ... to be continued IF Bill continues coaching post-Brady.

You mean like he continued coaching in 2008?

[amfootball]

If he doesn't I bet they don't go 11-5 without him like they did without somebody else.

Yeah, 11-5 and NO playoffs. If Bill is able to achieve even half of what he has with another QB which would be 4 trips to the SB and 2 rings, I will be the first to say that he and the Pats org is the best that has ever graced a football field ...

[BloodyChamp]

Yeah, 11-5 and NO playoffs. If Bill is able to achieve even half of what he has with another QB which would be 4 trips to the SB and 2 rings, I will be the first to say that he and the Pats org is the best that has ever graced a football field ...

He already has 2 additional rings and an additional trip to the SB...

[Superman]

I don't know anyone who views the W-L record like that. Anyone watching the game understands the QB does not control everything but his influence is greater than any other player in any other team sport and most factors into a team winning. Like I said, it is one factor of many when judging a QB.

 

People talk about QB win/loss records all the time, and it makes no sense.

 

Edit: "QB wins" is fixed to the QB. It's the only player who ever has a win/loss record talked about.

[Yehoodi]

Why is that relevant? Why is an independent person more qualified? What's better, a biased but informed opinion, or an unbiased but uninformed opinion?

 

How about an unbiased informed opinion?  How does that sound?  That is all that I was asking of him.  I did want to hear any fan hood hate for Coach Caldwell or any whining about timeouts or anything, just the raw numbers independent of any fan hood hurt about Coach Caldwell.  There are a lot of folks inside of Indiana that are not a fan of Caldwell even though he has had great success both in Indy and elsewhere.

 

The poster was talking about BB and his tenor with prior teams and his QBs, and as his theory goes as I see it, was BB has some level of success outside of coaching Brady and therefore one can say X about his ability as a coach.   And specifically with respect to BB having success with "average" QBs. 

 

As for BB and his coaching and QBs, he had Phil Simms (1st round pick, 7th overall) in New York, Bernie Kosar (1st round) and Vinny T. (first overall) in Cleveland, Bledsoe in NE (1st overall) and Vinny T again for one year with the Jets.  So basically for the nearly the entirety of his non Brady career BB has had either first overall QBs or first round picks, all of which have had success with BB and success outside of BB.

 

BB is a great coach and has helped out a great deal with the pats, no argument here.   But so has Caldwell.   That was my only point.  But there are some fans, like the ones that earlier in this thread tried to take down Dungy a notch, that think Caldwell is a buffoon or something.  I did not want to heard that side of things, but just the facts based on the results of what the coaches did, and when one looks at Caldwell one see success both at and outside of Indy.  But there will be some bias fans that will try to take down Caldwell, those are the ones I do not want to hear from as they are talking from hurt not analysis.  

[Yehoodi]

Bill has been coaching in the NFL at 1 level or another for 36 years and the results have been pretty much the same. If I had to give an answer on based on a fraction of that time then I would merely guess that the 2014 Lions were a fluke. Teams like that coming off of a wild man coach usually do well for a year when a guy like Caldwell comes in. It rarely amounts to anything else though. Wade Phillips, Romeo Crennell, etc.

 

Yes Bill has had success at other teams though out his career.  As I mentioned in my prior post to Superman, he has had the benefit of some solid QBs and not the average ones you think he coached with on a team.  Also he had Parcells with his tenor with the Giants, Pats and Jets.  When he was on his own in Cleveland he had both Kosar and Vinny T., and was not exactly ringing the bell, but he did help turn around that franchise. 

 

BB is a great coach and certainly helped out the pats and a good deal of Brady's success can be credited to BB, as with so many prior great having a great coach.

 

But I think a lot of folks here are not the biggest fans of Caldwell and Dungy, but when one looks at there respective resumes they had success at and outside Indy.   Its not like Brad Childress was coaching the colts and then never got a job after he left.  Although Caldwell coaching tenures is only about 10 years old he has had success both at Indy and two other teams since he left Indy. 

 

Now maybe Gary Kubiak sits on a different plane.

[Superman]

How about an unbiased informed opinion?  How does that sound?  That is all that I was asking of him.  I did want to hear any fan hood hate for Coach Caldwell or any whining about timeouts or anything, just the raw numbers independent of any fan hood hurt about Coach Caldwell.  There are a lot of folks inside of Indiana that are not a fan of Caldwell even though he has had great success both in Indy and elsewhere.

 

Yeah, an unbiased informed opinion would be great, but that's a higher standard that you originally asked for. No matter...

 

The truth is that it doesn't take a peer reviewed study to figure what kind of coach Jim Caldwell was with the Colts. I don't dislike him and wasn't part of the group that wanted him run out of town, but it's not hard to look at his body of work and determine that he was below average as a head coach. You scoff at the timeout criticism, but that speaks to his poor game management, and there are other examples. There's no reason to be dismissive of the opinion of Colts fans with regard to Jim Caldwell (and isn't Bloody Champ a Packers fan??), as if they don't know what they're talking about.

 

Most importantly, he spent two years as an assistant, working for a really well run organization and a well respected and successful head coach. Just because he was bad in Indy doesn't mean he's doomed to be bad forevermore. It stands to reason that he's a better coach now than he was three years ago, and there are plenty of guys about whom we could say that. 

 

In the context of this thread, it seems like a waste to spend more than 30 seconds on Jim Caldwell. If the question is whether he's even comparable to Belichick, we all know the answer to that.

[amfootball]

He already has 2 additional rings and an additional trip to the SB...

lol. Not as HC.

[Gramz]

Back to the #1 on this list.

Congratulations Peyton on your Espy award this evening. TD king.

[BloodyChamp]

lol. Not as HC.

And Brady didn't play on defense on all NE's top defenses, nor did he pick off Wilson. That washes his hands of those rings by your logic.

And he didn't coach. lol.

[BloodyChamp]

Yes Bill has had success at other teams though out his career. As I mentioned in my prior post to Superman, he has had the benefit of some solid QBs and not the average ones you think he coached with on a team. Also he had Parcells with his tenor with the Giants, Pats and Jets. When he was on his own in Cleveland he had both Kosar and Vinny T., and was not exactly ringing the bell, but he did help turn around that franchise.

BB is a great coach and certainly helped out the pats and a good deal of Brady's success can be credited to BB, as with so many prior great having a great coach.

But I think a lot of folks here are not the biggest fans of Caldwell and Dungy, but when one looks at there respective resumes they had success at and outside Indy. Its not like Brad Childress was coaching the colts and then never got a job after he left. Although Caldwell coaching tenures is only about 10 years old he has had success both at Indy and two other teams since he left Indy.

Now maybe Gary Kubiak sits on a different plane.

I think you know that you are downplaying Bill's influence and success. That's why you referred to those guys as first rounders. Jamarcus Russell, Christian Ponder and many other guys were first rounders. They're not in the HoF with all those guys not drafted in the 1st, or at all (yes there are undrafted HoF quarterbacks).

[Shane Bond]

lol. Damage control.

Bill was a HC for 5 seasons and had a losing record with exactly one playoff win. With Brady he has become the best in the game and arguable the greatest of all time. End of story ... to be continued IF Bill continues coaching post-Brady.

With the same Brady he didn't win a championship with a bad defense. But yeah, it's all Brady.

[AntonMcG]

I am not sure why you are trying to make this so black and white. Your first statement is WHY there is win/loss record for QBs. Their position influences the game the most. That does not mean they deserve 100 percent of the credit every time their team wins or loses but their play directly impacts the outcome of the game more than any other position in all of sports. Now if you want to talk about using a win/loss record as the only way to judge a QB than I would agree that would be a narrow view all things considered but it is still a factor in the process.

 

What an incredibly unfounded and silly comment.

 

But, what else would we expect from the Queen of Contradiction and Conjurer of Fallacies.

[dgambill]

Wow...that was an extensive and interesting read. While I don't agree with several of the rankings it does seem like the guy has good reasons for rating players as he did. I don't like doing rankings...its so subjective and across generations...almost impossible. Players careers are so dependent on so many factors...coaches, fellow players, defense, luck...so much could change things. In my opinion I like to say who were the greatest Qbs during their eras. Ala like Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning. Or Troy Aikmen, Brett Favre, and Steve Young. Or like Dan Marino, Joe Montana, and Warren Moon. Rank them however you like...they can all be close to considering greatest depending on personal preferences and opinions most are that close...but ranking all time it just doesn't make sense. It was an interesting read and he put a lot of good points and time into it...but no 2 people would ever rank a list the same....and I doubt if you took a majority of sports writers experts etc you would even get more than 20% to agree on who the best is....so these lists are POINTLESS except for clicks....and stiring discussion....leave the rankings off the list and I think you have an excellent read!

[Colts_Fan12]

I think it's pretty overrated myself to tell the truth. A lack of playoff success should not negate the stats and effort a player has. It's a team sport.

more people need to realize this.

[Colts_Fan12]

so why does andy dalton get so much hate when all hes done is go to the playoffs every year hes been in the league

well his stats still suck?

[Colts_Fan12]

And the worst thing... it feels like it's happening again...

I get the same feeling....

[Gavin]

well his stats still suck?

Not exactly, He threw a lot less last year then he did his previous year and was out AJ Green 3 games, He is a good QB, Just not elite

[Bubbz]

Dungy wasn't that great, and Caldwell was a bum

[CR91]

well his stats still suck?

 

his stats in his first three years are identical to peyton's first three years. try again

[Shane Bond]

so why does andy dalton get so much hate when all hes done is go to the playoffs every year hes been in the league

why are we talking about Andy dalton when we are discussing Peyton manning?.

are you comparing the two?. Do you believe they are the same?.

[CR91]

why are we talking about Andy dalton when we are discussing Peyton manning?.

are you comparing the two?. Do you believe they are the same?.

 

the topic was about how QB success in the playoffs is overrated yet dalton gets heat for not winning in the playoffs

[Shane Bond]

the topic was about how QB success in the playoffs is overrated yet dalton gets heat for not winning in the playoffs

You didn't answer the other questions

[CR91]

You didn't answer the other questions

 

because it doesnt have anything to do with peyton, I was just comparing his stats to prove the other poster wrong. if you wanna compare, peyton doesnt get blamed for his playoff loses. theres always an excuse. dalton gets thrown into the frying pan