bpa

[OLD FAN MAN]

is it wiser for a gm to draft bpa when that position is filled and the pick sits on the bench until a space is available or draft bpa for a position of need who can start and upgrade and play now? did grigs make a good first?

[NewColtsFan]

is it wiser for a gm to draft bpa when that position is filled and the pick sits on the bench until a space is available or draft bpa for a position of need who can start and upgrade and play now?

 

What makes you think Dorsett will sit on the bench?

 

He'll be in on 3 and 4 WR sets....   and we run plenty of those...

[Bluefire4]

 This is an incompetent rhetorical question.

[csmopar]

Please Lord (or even a mod) make post like these stop....

[coltsdan]

What makes you think Dorsett will sit on the bench?

 

He'll be in on 3 and 4 WR sets....   and we run plenty of those..

look at donte.  didnt play until when last year?  

[coltsdan]

 This is an incompetent rhetorical question.

none of this is rhetorical

[coltsdan]

Please Lord (or even a mod) make post like these stop....

why?  its a good discussion, although pointless right now

[schwamm]

is it wiser for a gm to draft bpa when that position is filled and the pick sits on the bench until a space is available or draft bpa for a position of need who can start and upgrade and play now? did grigs make a good first?

So in an absolute and ideal world, the answer is always and in all ways: Yes, it is wiser to draft BPA. Doing so creates options that drafting for depth never will.

But GMs aren't really drafting BPA. They are drafting ABPA, or the player available that they anticipate will be the best. And history of the NFL tells us they are ALL wrong more than right. (And McShiper is wrong more often than the worst GM. And 99.99% of the most knowledgable fans are wrong more often than McShiper's worst efforts.)

[scooter4910]

Please Lord (or even a mod) make post like these stop....

Why? Because you disagree?

[jabbanobadda]

why?  its a good discussion, although pointless right now

I'm pretty sure this discussion is going on in about 10 other threads right now.

[jabbanobadda]

Why? Because you disagree?

Disagree with what? Wasn't it an either or question?

[coltsdan]

I'm pretty sure this discussion is going on in about 10 other threads right now.

i dont see any in the top 12 to this degree

[scooter4910]

is it wiser for a gm to draft bpa when that position is filled and the pick sits on the bench until a space is available or draft bpa for a position of need who can start and upgrade and play now? did grigs make a good first?

I don't think he did. Probably a great kid and an investment in our future but was he a need? Will he have as big an immediate impact as say a 1st round safety or lineman (D or L)? We have what 7-8 WR's now? Seems like wasted talent to me.

 

If the BPA was quarterback, punter or kicker would we have taken them? Probably not. So Grig's following his board is kind of a fluid process.

[scooter4910]

Disagree with what? Wasn't it an either or question?

He want's it to stop because he thinks a great pick. There are others (myself included) who think it was a waste of a draft pick.

 

PS, you folks click on the link then criticize the poster. Why not just steer clear of the post and let people do their own thing?

[schwamm]

I don't think he did. Probably a great kid and an investment in our future but was he a need? Will he have as big an immediate impact as say a 1st round safety or lineman (D or L)? We have what 7-8 WR's now? Seems like wasted talent to me.

If the BPA was quarterback, punter or kicker would we have taken them? Probably not. So Grig's following his board is kind of a fluid process.

I would suggest the fluid part is how the board is set up, not how it's followed. I say the same every year, but how a GM determines "best" is incredibly subjective, and I can guarantee need plays a part in how they structure their boards, even if only subconsciously.

[scooter4910]

I would suggest the fluid part is how the board is set up, not how it's followed. I say the same every year, but how a GM determines "best" is incredibly subjective, and I can guarantee need plays a part in how they structure their boards, even if only subconsciously.

That would then lead us to the million dollar question..does Grigs actually feel it was worth our first round pick to get another WR when we have so many other well know, documented, discussed, etc, etc, etc....needs? Obviously he does which kind of concerns me.

[Bobbycovert]

I don't think he did. Probably a great kid and an investment in our future but was he a need? Will he have as big an immediate impact as say a 1st round safety or lineman (D or L)? We have what 7-8 WR's now? Seems like wasted talent to me.

 

If the BPA was quarterback, punter or kicker would we have taken them? Probably not. So Grig's following his board is kind of a fluid process.

 

     No one really knows how much impact Dorsett will have. Personally I expect he'll have a much bigger impact than some of the posters here think.  Was WR an area of desperate need? No, but it was an area of need.  Teams adept at taking away TY seemed to give us fits last year.  It looked like we lacked dynamic playmakers at times.  If Dorsett can fill that role then this pick will have been well worth it.

 

     As for your question about taking another QB, Kicker, Punter... of course not.  Unlike the positions you listed, multiple WRs are on the field filling a role.  I think there is a difference between BPA and redundancy.

[schwamm]

That would then lead us to the million dollar question..does Grigs actually feel it was worth our first round pick to get another WR when we have so many other well know, documented, discussed, etc, etc, etc....needs? Obviously he does which kind of concerns me.

Me not so much. I am quite certain he has done a far better job than anyone on here could do, and far better than many on here suggest. I was surprised by the Dorsett pick (as I was when Wayne was drafted), but I'm excited to see what he can do.

[Smonroe]

is it wiser for a gm to draft bpa when that position is filled and the pick sits on the bench until a space is available or draft bpa for a position of need who can start and upgrade and play now? did grigs make a good first?

The latter. Yes, because our #1 will play.

[scooter4910]

Me not so much. I am quite certain he has done a far better job than anyone on here could do, and far better than many on here suggest. I was surprised by the Dorsett pick (as I was when Wayne was drafted), but I'm excited to see what he can do.

Year 1 - Andrew Luck (Grigs really had no input, decision already made)

Year 2 - Bjorn Werner

Year 3 - Trent Richardson

Year 4 - Phillip Dorsett

 

Ummm....yeah....not really sure this BPA thing is really working for us. Maybe we should try the need route instead.

[Bobbycovert]

Year 1 - Andrew Luck (Grigs really had no input, decision already made)

Year 2 - Bjorn Werner

Year 3 - Trent Richardson

Year 4 - Phillip Dorsett

 

Ummm....yeah....not really sure this BPA thing is really working for us. Maybe we should try the need route instead.

 

You are including Richardson and a rookie yet to play a snap in the NFL to critique Grigson's draft day strategy.  Makes a ton of sense.

[NewColtsFan]

look at donte.  didnt play until when last year?  

 

You could be right....

 

But,  I think Dorsett is a little more polished than Dante was coming out of Mississippi.

[C0lts088]

Dorsett will most likely return punts and kicks as if now, and I'm very certain there will be packages that will feature TY and Dorsett at the same time, possibly on the same side and let them both go loose...... They can both create havoc for the opponents safety especially when both running full speed at the safety.... Good luck to who ever that may be!

[schwamm]

Year 1 - Andrew Luck (Grigs really had no input, decision already made)

Year 2 - Bjorn Werner

Year 3 - Trent Richardson

Year 4 - Phillip Dorsett

Ummm....yeah....not really sure this BPA thing is really working for us. Maybe we should try the need route instead.

You're right. My bad. I thoughts drafts had more than one round, and I keep forgetting that all other GMs have been perfect in these one round drafts.

[C0lts088]

You could be right....

But, I think Dorsett is a little more polished than Dante was coming out of Mississippi.

I believe Dorsett is a more polished TY when first drafted.

[NewColtsFan]

Year 1 - Andrew Luck (Grigs really had no input, decision already made)

Year 2 - Bjorn Werner

Year 3 - Trent Richardson

Year 4 - Phillip Dorsett

 

Ummm....yeah....not really sure this BPA thing is really working for us. Maybe we should try the need route instead.

 

BPA is not applicable to a trade,  so you can cross Trent off your list.

 

And Dorsett is months away from showing what he can do,   so you can cross him off your list too.

[scooter4910]

You are including Richardson and a rookie yet to play a snap in the NFL to critique Grigson's draft day strategy.  Makes a ton of sense.

Ummm....we traded away our #1 for Richardson so he was our #1.

 

And frankly what has been saving us these last couple of years has been Luck which Grigs basically had nothing to do with.

[NewColtsFan]

Ummm....we traded away our #1 for Richardson so he was our #1.

 

And frankly what has been saving us these last couple of years has been Luck which Grigs basically had nothing to do with.

 

There are 53 players on a roster...

 

So,  even without Luck,  Grigson had a ton to do with building this roster....

 

And he's only 4-years in.....

 

In case you handn't noticed,  the Colts are a winning franchise.

[scooter4910]

BPA is not applicable to a trade,  so you can cross Trent off your list.

 

And Dorsett is months away from showing what he can do,   so you can cross him off your list too.

I'll have to disagree. If the Richardson trade wasn't the best player/transaction available why did we waste a first round pick on him?

[scooter4910]

There are 53 players on a roster...

 

So,  even without Luck,  Grigson had a ton to do with building this roster....

 

And he's only 4-years in.....

 

In case you handn't noticed,  the Colts are a winning franchise.

Winning record every year since 2002...most of them 12, 13, 14 season wins.

 

2011 2-14 Painter

2012 11-5 Luck

2013 11-5 Luck

2014 11-5 Luck

 

We are a winning franchise before but are we improving? We had better records with Dungy, Polian and Manning.

[Bobbycovert]

Ummm....we traded away our #1 for Richardson so he was our #1.

 

And frankly what has been saving us these last couple of years has been Luck which Grigs basically had nothing to do with.

 

No, we didn't have a round one pick because we traded it to Cleveland.  Like I said, BPA is a draft day strategy.  Using the result of a trade that occurred prior to draft day to debate BPA isn't terribly useful.  Was Richardson the BPA? At the time, he was the only player available.  Also remember that we had lost Ballard for the year and were uncomfortable asking Bradshaw to carry too much of the load.  The Richardson trade was the result of need more than anything else.

[Andrew Luck's Beard]

I'll have to disagree. If the Richardson trade wasn't the best player/transaction available why did we waste a first round pick on him?

First of all, that trade was at the beginning of the year, so how would we know who the 'best player available' at the time we were supposed to draft half a year away was going to be? Secondly, trading a first for You-Know-Who seemed to be a good deal for the Colts at that time, and could've even pushed us to a Super Bowl the past two years if You-Know-Who even somewhat resembled how he played in Cleveland and at 'Bama.

[scooter4910]

No, we didn't have a round one pick because we traded it to Cleveland.  Like I said, BPA is a draft day strategy.  Using the result of a trade that occurred prior to draft day to debate BPA isn't terribly useful.  Was Richardson the BPA? At the time, he was the only player available.  Also remember that we had lost Ballard for the year and were uncomfortable asking Bradshaw to carry too much of the load.  The Richardson trade was the result of need more than anything else.

You are correct...we didn't have a pick.....because we traded it.....for Richardson.

 

But that is semantics. Just because we didn't use the pick at the draft doesn't mean we didn't use the pick. We used our first round pick to acquire Richardson.

[wordofmouth]

I'll have to disagree. If the Richardson trade wasn't the best player/transaction available why did we waste a first round pick on him?

Actually, the Richardson trade was a classic example of the danger of "need" . If you remember, both Ballard and

Bradshaw where hurt and Grigson  approached the Browns from a position of weakness and ended up spending

a first rounder on him.

 

Also, to say that BPA available isn't working out for us, because the players you listed haven't played up to par doesn't really make sense. The argument against BPA would be the Hughes pick. Assuming he was the best player on the board, he never got a chance to develop properly because he was stuck behind two Hall of Famers.

If Werner ( the only one currently applicable to your argument ) turns out to be a disappointment it will be because his talent was misjudged not because we thought he as the BPA.

 

Edit: as was just pointed out, Bradshaw wasn't hurt yet.

[Bluefire4]

none of this is rhetorical

This question was posed to gain a response and make a statement, (as he already knew the answer to this incompetent question) which is the definition of a rhetorical question.

[NewColtsFan]

I'll have to disagree. If the Richardson trade wasn't the best player/transaction available why did we waste a first round pick on him?

 

You can disagree from now until the end of time....

 

But within the football world,  the term BPA is used in drafting,  NOT used in trading.   

 

We used a 1st round pick on Trent,  because we couldn't get him for a 2nd round.    If you stop and think about it,  other teams were offering a 2nd, and those teams were likely gong to draft higher,  so our 2nd round pick would not have gotten Trent.

 

The team figured the deal would be good,  and we'd be acquiring the 3rd overall player in the 2012 draft for a pick that would likely be around 26-30.    Doesn't seem too unreasonable.    No one predicted that Trent would be as terrible as he turned out to be.

[scooter4910]

First of all, that trade was at the beginning of the year, so how would we know who the 'best player available' at the time we were supposed to draft half a year away was going to be? Secondly, trading a first for You-Know-Who seemed to be a good deal for the Colts at that time, and could've even pushed us to a Super Bowl the past two years if You-Know-Who even somewhat resembled how he played in Cleveland and at 'Bama.

 

Best player available isn't only used at the draft. It's also used during free agency and during selection of the UDFA's.

[NewColtsFan]

Winning record every year since 2002...most of them 12, 13, 14 season wins.

 

2011 2-14 Painter

2012 11-5 Luck

2013 11-5 Luck

2014 11-5 Luck

 

We are a winning franchise before but are we improving? We had better records with Dungy, Polian and Manning.

 

The Colts gutted the roster in 2012 after the terrible 2011 season.     The team was old and badly structured, so we had to start again from scratch.

 

In 2012,  we had $40 Million in Dead Cap money,  that meant that on a normal payroll of $120 Million,  we could only pay out about $80 million in new salaries.

 

In 2013,   the team went one round further in the playoffs.

 

In 2014,  the team went one round further still in the playoffs.

 

So,  starting from the ground up,  we've gotten better every year.    Winning the Super Bowl is the hardest thing to do in team sports.    So, from 2-14 in 2011,  we've been in the playoffs all three years and gone further every year.

 

We're only four years into a complete rebuild.    These things take time.

[scooter4910]

You can disagree from now until the end of time....

 

But within the football world,  the term BPA is used in drafting,  NOT used in trading.   

 

We used a 1st round pick on Trent,  because we couldn't get him for a 2nd round.    If you stop and think about it,  other teams were offering a 2nd, and those teams were likely gong to draft higher,  so our 2nd round pick would not have gotten Trent.

 

The team figured the deal would be good,  and we'd be acquiring the 3rd overall player in the 2012 draft for a pick that would likely be around 26-30.    Doesn't seem too unreasonable.    No one predicted that Trent would be as terrible as he turned out to be.

The term means nothing..it's a tactic. Need vs BPA are just words, the GM is going to do whatever they want.

[wordofmouth]

Winning record every year since 2002...most of them 12, 13, 14 season wins.

 

2011 2-14 Painter

2012 11-5 Luck

2013 11-5 Luck

2014 11-5 Luck

 

We are a winning franchise before but are we improving? We had better records with Dungy, Polian and Manning.

Their records were better than almost every team in history.