Fire Grigson?

[OLD FAN MAN]

I do think the obvious pick was Luck but there was a decision to be made.

Newsome, I am just saying, can you really expect more from a 5th round pick in his rookie yr?

I first said name 5 that are better then if you can name 10. That doesn't exactly put him at 10th. But are you saying that we should fire Grigson if he is the 7th(even 10th) best in the league because he isn't "special?" Not many people are "special."

just hoody and brady

[NewColtsFan]

If it was legitimately quantifiable and we could say without a doubt Grigson is the #10 GM than I may not fire him immediately but I am actively looking for a replacement.  Being the bottom of the top 33% is replaceable in my book ... you think "graduated in the top 1/3 of my class" is something someone puts on a resume to persuade someone to hire them?

 

You know what Grigson's resume says that most every other GM's resume DOESN'T say?

 

-- Made the playoffs his first three years as GM after tearing down the mess he inherited.

 

-- Went further in the playoffs each year than the year before.

 

Your attempts to make Grigson look like less than what he is are not persuasive....   

[esmort]

You know what Grigson's resume says that most every other GM's resume DOESN'T say?

 

-- Made the playoffs his first three years as GM after tearing down the mess he inherited.

 

-- Went further in the playoffs each year than the year before.

 

Your attempts to make Grigson look like less than what he is are not persuasive....   

 

Not trying to make him less than he is.  But, I also don't think he deserves the pedestal many are putting him on.

 

- As I have repeatedly said .... I DO NOT want him fired!

 

- I like a lot of the stuff he has done.

 

- I agree the team has accomplished a lot while he has been GM. 

 

With that said I think there also has to be some perspective ............... 

 

You know what most other GMs resumes also don't say .... QB: Andrew Luck .... I don't think it was all Luck of course Grigson gets some of the credit ... but that sure made things a lot easier.  As did playing in our division, I know people don't like to admit it, but it plays a role in making the post season. 

 

He has also made some pretty big mistakes ....

 

There are still many question marks on his ability to evaluate talent ....

 

If you want to go ahead and give him Executive of the Year now for the next few years feel free .... In my mind the jury is still out on his abilities as GM; and as I said before I believe this off season and draft will be what pushes him one way or the other in my mind. If you think pointing out his mistakes along with his accomplishments is unfair in some way that's your prerogative.

[bsteves]

There was a decision to be made and Irsay made it (he decided on Luck) before Grigson was hired (So no credit Grigson)

No, I didn't expect more from Newsome in his rookie year, he did decent ... but he is being over hyped and has not shown enough yet to help Grigson one way or the other.

You also limited the GMs to the last 3 years which makes for a difficult comparison, because there are some good GMs whose teams have had a couple down years ex. Jerry Reese

I don't have a specific ranking among GMs that I would base his firing on, if I thought he should be fired it would be based on "How do I think the Colts look after the 2015 season"

If it was legitimately quantifiable and we could say without a doubt Grigson is the #10 GM than I may not fire him immediately but I am actively looking for a replacement. Being the bottom of the top 33% is replaceable in my book ... you think "graduated in the top 1/3 of my class" is something someone puts on a resume to persuade someone to hire them?

I agree that Newsome might be overhyped but he's definitely a promising contributor.

I limited to the last 3 years because this is Grigsons first go at GM. There's no comparison to make before then. You brought up good Gms and down years so that also goes to show that a bad year doesn't exactly make a GM bad.

I agree that this upcoming year has a lot to say about Ryan Grigson but I haven't seen anything that says he won't make progress. He has helped this team progress each year. Each year may not have gone how he wanted but not every move is going to hit.

I have not seen enough to bring up the words "Grigson" and "fire" in the same sentence. What I do see is a spoiled fan base that looks to question every aspect of the team when we don't play at an elite level.

[a06cc]

Not trying to make him less than he is. But, I also don't think he deserves the pedestal many are putting him on.

- As I have repeatedly said .... I DO NOT want him fired!

- I like a lot of the stuff he has done.

- I agree the team has accomplished a lot while he has been GM.

With that said I think there also has to be some perspective ...............

You know what most other GMs resumes also don't say .... QB: Andrew Luck .... I don't think it was all Luck of course Grigson gets some of the credit ... but that sure made things a lot easier. As did playing in our division, I know people don't like to admit it, but it plays a role in making the post season.

He has also made some pretty big mistakes ....

There are still many question marks on his ability to evaluate talent ....

If you want to go ahead and give him Executive of the Year now for the next few years feel free .... In my mind the jury is still out on his abilities as GM; and as I said before I believe this off season and draft will be what pushes him one way or the other in my mind. If you think pointing out his mistakes along with his accomplishments is unfair in some way that's your prerogative.

This is what I agree with. Myself I've also said he doesn't deserve to be fire. I'm 50/50 on him because of his decision making. This was also why I made the Polian comparison.

[Modern]

Grigson needs to leave Browns players alone, don't trade for them or sign them.

[ruksak]

He's had great success and a few tremendous failures. To waste a 1st round pick is huge. To waste two in row? Well that's certainly pushing him to the edge of what's acceptable. 

 

I agree with what some others have said, that this upcoming draft is critical in evaluating him going forward. That first pick had better hit on something good. The probelem therein is, we need a pass rusher and he already blew it the last time he picked a pass rusher with the first pick. 

[BOTT]

It isn't?    Since when?

 

What is more important than a team's record?

No. Was Bill Polian doing a great good job as colts gm near the end? No he wasn't. That's why it galls me to hear talking heads say Polian was fired for one bad season. Sometimes you win because of person and sometimes you win despite of them. I'm not saying the Colts win despite Grigson, but he's been far from great,

[NewColtsFan]

No. Was Bill Polian doing a great good job as colts gm near the end? No he wasn't. That's why it galls me to hear talking heads say Polian was fired for one bad season. Sometimes you win because of person and sometimes you win despite of them. I'm not saying the Colts win despite Grigson, but he's been far from great,

 

Up until the last season,  Bill Polian was winning double digits every year.

 

He was doing a great job.    I'm not sure why this isn't acceptable to you,  but apparently it's not.

 

Irsay wanted to go in another direction.   He tired of (A) spending way more money on offense than defense,  and he tired of (B) a smaller faster defense rather than a bigger stronger defense.

 

Sometimes it's just time for a change.

 

But Polian was doing a great job.    I'm sorry you think otherwise....

 

The bottom line is the bottom line and wins are the bottom line.

[AntonMcG]

There was a decision to be made and Irsay made it (he decided on Luck) before Grigson was hired (So no credit Grigson)

 

No, I didn't expect more from Newsome in his rookie year, he did decent ... but he is being over hyped and has not shown enough yet to help Grigson one way or the other. 

 

You also limited the GMs to the last 3 years which makes for a difficult comparison, because there are some good GMs whose teams have had a couple down years ex. Jerry Reese

 

I don't have a specific ranking among GMs that I would base his firing on, if I thought he should be fired it would be based on "How do I think the Colts look after the 2015 season" 

 

If it was legitimately quantifiable and we could say without a doubt Grigson is the #10 GM than I may not fire him immediately but I am actively looking for a replacement.  Being the bottom of the top 33% is replaceable in my book ... you think "graduated in the top 1/3 of my class" is something someone puts on a resume to persuade someone to hire them?

 

At high school? No.

 

At Harvard? Yes.

 

The NFL is the highest level of the sport... the diligence is arguably as high or higher than any other sport in the world. There is very little room for error as you are in a highly competitive market... good GM's do not grow on trees. Grigson's performance thus far could have been better, but it could have been a whole lot worse.

 

He deserves another year.

[BOTT]

Up until the last season, Bill Polian was winning double digits every year.

He was doing a great job. I'm not sure why this isn't acceptable to you, but apparently it's not.

Irsay wanted to go in another direction. He tired of (A) spending way more money on offense than defense, and he tired of (B) a smaller faster defense rather than a bigger stronger defense.

Sometimes it's just time for a change.

But Polian was doing a great job. I'm sorry you think otherwise....

The bottom line is the bottom line and wins are the bottom line.

Polian was doing a poor job drafting....even he admits this. The talent on the Colts roster was getting older and going downhill. And this isn't hindsight, many on this forum were saying it at the time. Polian did well in Indy, but Manning was covering way too may holes near the end.

But hey, I guess Mark Sanchez can tell his detractors that he went to two straight afc championships, beat Brady and manning, and has a 4-1 road record in the playoffs because the bottom line in the bottom line.

[NewColtsFan]

Polian was doing a poor job drafting....even he admits this. The talent on the Colts roster was getting older and going downhill. And this isn't hindsight, many on this forum were saying it at the time. Polian did well in Indy, but Manning was covering way too may holes near the end.

But hey, I guess Mark Sanchez can tell his detractors that he went to two straight afc championships, beat Brady and manning, and has a 4-1 road record in the playoffs because the bottom line in the bottom line.

 

Right.......  because a Mark Sanchez comparison to Bill Polian is simply perfect.

 

Everyone uses those two in the same group.

 

Whatever......

[Dustin]

He was doing a great job.    I'm not sure why this isn't acceptable to you,  but apparently it's not.

 

, no he wasn't. He was awful his last 5 years. I mean, you weren't even a Colts fan then. 

 

Look at these drafts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_Colts_draft_history#2007_Draft

[BOTT]

Right.......  because a Mark Sanchez comparison to Bill Polian is simply perfect.

 

Everyone uses those two in the same group.

 

Whatever......

Fine, if you having nothing to say just respond with foolishness.....perfect.

[Jason_]

He's had great success and a few tremendous failures. To waste a 1st round pick is huge. To waste two in row? Well that's certainly pushing him to the edge of what's acceptable. 

 

I agree with what some others have said, that this upcoming draft is critical in evaluating him going forward. That first pick had better hit on something good. The probelem therein is, we need a pass rusher and he already blew it the last time he picked a pass rusher with the first pick. 

 

I agree.  He's had far more hits imo than misses, and just to clarify I'm not counting Werner as a miss yet.  He may never be a great pass rusher but he can still be a very good Sam backer in our defense.  No, that may not be what we were hoping to get from him, but still if he becomes a multi year starter then that's still pretty good value out of a late first round pick.  I'm definitely with you on the Trent trade.  I was never happy about trading a 1st for a RB.  Other than that though and possibly Landry, I can't think of any other really big misses.  DThomas didn't work out but it's not like he came with a note that suggested he would sustain a season ending injury in preseason 2 years in a row.

[NewColtsFan]

, no he wasn't. He was awful his last 5 years. I mean, you weren't even a Colts fan then. 

 

Look at these drafts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_Colts_draft_history#2007_Draft

 

 

I wasn't a Colts fan,  but I was an NFL fan.   And I know one thing that apparently you don't....

 

The Colts were winning.    And winning big.   Double-digits every year.

 

To be clear,  I've never once said it was a mistake to let Polian go.    It was time.    It was time for a change.   I've always said that.  And his late drafts were poor.    I've never said otherwise.

 

But through all the mistakes and problems his team continued to win.

 

And if you think it's only because of Peyton Manning,  then I don't know what to tell you....

 

 

 

Here's Polian's record....

 

 

1998 NFL AFC East 5th 3 13 0    

1999 NFL AFC East 1st 13 3 0 Lost Divisional Playoffs (Titans) 19–16 Edgerrin James (OROY)^[22]

2000 NFL AFC East 2nd 10 6 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Dolphins) 23–17 (OT)  

2001 NFL AFC East 4th 6 10 0    

2002 NFL AFC South 2nd 10 6 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Jets) 41–0  

2003 NFL AFC South 1st 12 4 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Broncos) 41–10

Won Divisional Playoffs (Chiefs) 38–31  Lost Conference Championship (Patriots) 24–14 Peyton Manning (MVP)^[23]

2004 NFL AFC South 1st 12 4 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Broncos) 49–24

Lost Divisional Playoffs (Patriots) 20–3 Peyton Manning (MVP, OPOY)^[23][24]

2005 NFL AFC South 1st 14 2 0 Lost Divisional Playoffs (Steelers) 21–18 Peyton Manning (WP MOY)^[25]

2006 NFL AFC South 1st 12 4 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Chiefs) 23–8

Won Divisional Playoffs (Ravens) 15–6

Won Conference Championship (Patriots) 38–34

Won Super Bowl XLI (4) (Bears) 29–17 Peyton Manning (SB MVP)^[26]

2007 NFL AFC South 1st 13 3 0 Lost Divisional Playoffs (Chargers) 28–24^[l]Bob Sanders (DPOY)^[27]

2008 NFL AFC South 2nd 12 4 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Chargers) 23–17 (OT) Peyton Manning (MVP)^[23]

2009 NFL AFC South 1st 14 2 0 Won Divisional Playoffs (Ravens) 20–3

Won Conference Championship (Jets) 30–17

Lost Super Bowl XLIV (Saints) 31–17 Peyton Manning (MVP)^[28]

2010 NFL AFC South 1st 10 6 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Jets) 17–16  

2011 NFL AFC South 4th 2 14 0    

2012 NFL AFC South 2nd 11 5 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Ravens) 24–9 Bruce Arians (COY)^[29]

2013 NFL AFC South 1st 11 5 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Chiefs) 45–44

Lost Divisional Playoffs (Patriots) 43–22  

2014 NFL AFC South 1st 11 5 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Bengals) 26–10

Won Divisional Playoffs (Broncos) 24–13

Lost Conference Championship (Patriots) 45–7      

[NewColtsFan]

Fine, if you having nothing to say just respond with foolishness.....perfect.

 

Foolishness?

 

Just look at your comments about Polian,  and that all-time classic that winning isn't a good way of determining if a GM is doing a good job.    Follow sports much?

 

THAT is among the dumbest things posted here in the nearly three years I've been here.   And that's saying something.

 

Congratulations.

[SilentHill]

Well, can someone tell me what a "good" GM's record should be in terms of hits/misses in the draft and free agency?  100%?  75%  50%?  Should it just be the record of the team?  Team progress?

 

We went from 2-14 and a laughing stock to the AFC championship in three years.  Progress no?

We've had three straight 11-5 marks.  Pretty good team record.

 

IMO, here's how he's done in the draft/FA:

 

Good:  Luck, TY, Moncrief, Mewhort, Allen, Fleener, Bradshaw, DQ, Vontae, Redding, Mike Adams, Waldon, Gosder (when healthy).

Bad:  TRich, Landry.

So-so:  Toler, Freeman, Chapman, Hughes, Jones, RJF,

Jury still out:  Newsome, Werner (IMO), Holmes.

 

I see no reason to fire him.  IMO, it shouldn't even be in the discussion (except for angry fans of course).

 

to be honest, we are still a laughing stock, after the AFC championship game.

[BOTT]

Foolishness?

 

Just look at your comments about Polian,  and that all-time classic that winning isn't a good way of determining if a GM is doing a good job.    Follow sports much?

 

THAT is among the dumbest things posted here in the nearly three years I've been here.   And that's saying something.

 

Congratulations.

I said Polian wasnt doing well near the end of his tenure here....WHICH HE HAS ADMITTED. Wow, I really crossed the line there.

And you are mis characterizing what I said. I said trotting out a teams record isn't proof he is doing well. It obviously figures into the equation....but having a QB like Luck gives him a tremendous leg up....which is why I quoted Polain earlier (which you ironically "liked").

But hey, go on with your typical "off the meds" rant.

[Dustin]

I wasn't a Colts fan,  but I was an NFL fan.   And I know one thing that apparently you don't....

 

The Colts were winning.    And winning big.   Double-digits every year.

 

To be clear,  I've never once said it was a mistake to let Polian go.    It was time.    It was time for a change.   I've always said that.  And his late drafts were poor.    I've never said otherwise.

 

But through all the mistakes and problems his team continued to win.

 

And if you think it's only because of Peyton Manning,  then I don't know what to tell you....

 

 

 

Here's Polian's record....

 

 

1998 NFL AFC East 5th 3 13 0    

1999 NFL AFC East 1st 13 3 0 Lost Divisional Playoffs (Titans) 19–16 Edgerrin James (OROY)^[22]

2000 NFL AFC East 2nd 10 6 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Dolphins) 23–17 (OT)  

2001 NFL AFC East 4th 6 10 0    

2002 NFL AFC South 2nd 10 6 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Jets) 41–0  

2003 NFL AFC South 1st 12 4 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Broncos) 41–10

Won Divisional Playoffs (Chiefs) 38–31  Lost Conference Championship (Patriots) 24–14 Peyton Manning (MVP)^[23]

2004 NFL AFC South 1st 12 4 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Broncos) 49–24

Lost Divisional Playoffs (Patriots) 20–3 Peyton Manning (MVP, OPOY)^[23][24]

2005 NFL AFC South 1st 14 2 0 Lost Divisional Playoffs (Steelers) 21–18 Peyton Manning (WP MOY)^[25]

2006 NFL AFC South 1st 12 4 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Chiefs) 23–8

Won Divisional Playoffs (Ravens) 15–6

Won Conference Championship (Patriots) 38–34

Won Super Bowl XLI (4) (Bears) 29–17 Peyton Manning (SB MVP)^[26]

2007 NFL AFC South 1st 13 3 0 Lost Divisional Playoffs (Chargers) 28–24^[l]Bob Sanders (DPOY)^[27]

2008 NFL AFC South 2nd 12 4 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Chargers) 23–17 (OT) Peyton Manning (MVP)^[23]

2009 NFL AFC South 1st 14 2 0 Won Divisional Playoffs (Ravens) 20–3

Won Conference Championship (Jets) 30–17

Lost Super Bowl XLIV (Saints) 31–17 Peyton Manning (MVP)^[28]

2010 NFL AFC South 1st 10 6 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Jets) 17–16  

2011 NFL AFC South 4th 2 14 0    

2012 NFL AFC South 2nd 11 5 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Ravens) 24–9 Bruce Arians (COY)^[29]

2013 NFL AFC South 1st 11 5 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Chiefs) 45–44

Lost Divisional Playoffs (Patriots) 43–22  

2014 NFL AFC South 1st 11 5 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Bengals) 26–10

Won Divisional Playoffs (Broncos) 24–13

Lost Conference Championship (Patriots) 45–7      

 

Polian was awful his last 5-6 years. Even he admitted it. He couldn't draft, and would rather hand over inflated contracts to his own players than sign free agents. 

[Superman]

to be honest, we are still a laughing stock, after the AFC championship game.

 

Only three teams can laugh at the Colts this year. Two of them are in the Super Bowl, and the other was very nearly in the Super Bowl. 

[NewColtsFan]

I said Polian wasnt doing well near the end of his tenure here....WHICH HE HAS ADMITTED. Wow, I really crossed the line there.

And you are mis characterizing what I said. I said trotting out a teams record isn't proof he is doing well. It obviously figures into the equation....but having a QB like Luck gives him a tremendous leg up....which is why I quoted Polain earlier (which you ironically "liked").

But hey, go on with your typical "off the meds" rant.

 

Your words.....   cutting and  pasting...

 

but trotting out a teams record isn't proof he is doing a swell job.

 

 

Winning is the most important thing.    Other areas are important,  but nothing trumps winning.

 

I've made many posts here saying it was time for Polian to go.    I've noted his late drafts were poor.   And putting his son in the position he did was bad and didn't work out.

 

Grigson has made plenty of mistakes.   And if he makes more of them, he'll eventually lose his job.   But after three years with each year better than the last his job is safe for now.   And the threads about firing Grigson are embarrassing.    Anyone who thinks Grigson or Pagano should be fired now simply don't know how running a football team works.

 

But, hey,  maybe that's just me on meds.....      

[Superman]

I wasn't a Colts fan,  but I was an NFL fan.   And I know one thing that apparently you don't....

 

The Colts were winning.    And winning big.   Double-digits every year.

 

Part of the reason the Colts fell off a cliff seemingly overnight is that the roster had been eroding for several years prior to 2011. It's part of the reason only a handful of his guys are still here (and two of them are specialists). His overall resume is very impressive, but when you really dig into his last 5-7 years here, you can see a ton of mistakes (both of commission and omission) that set this team back, and dug a very deep hole for Grigson to climb out of.

[BOTT]

Your words.....   cutting and  pasting...

 

but trotting out a teams record isn't proof he is doing a swell job.

 

 

Winning is the most important thing.    Other areas are important,  but nothing trumps winning.

 

I've made many posts here saying it was time for Polian to go.    I've noted his late drafts were poor.   And putting his son in the position he did was bad and didn't work out.

 

Grigson has made plenty of mistakes.   And if he makes more of them, he'll eventually lose his job.   But after three years with each year better than the last his job is safe for now.   And the threads about firing Grigson are embarrassing.    Anyone who thinks Grigson or Pagano should be fired now simply don't know how running a football team works.

 

But, hey,  maybe that's just me on meds.....      

Yes, and I stick by that statement. Just like I wouldn't use wins as the ONLY factor in determining QB success. I'm sorry, but it can be misleading and can mask mediocre performance. I think Grigson deserves another yr, but he has to pick up his game if he wants to have a long tenure.

[NewColtsFan]

Part of the reason the Colts fell off a cliff seemingly overnight is that the roster had been eroding for several years prior to 2011. It's part of the reason only a handful of his guys are still here (and two of them are specialists). His overall resume is very impressive, but when you really dig into his last 5-7 years here, you can see a ton of mistakes (both of commission and omission) that set this team back, and dug a very deep hole for Grigson to climb out of.

 

I'm aware of all of this.....   and I know he signed guys to long, big contracts that put us in the mess we were in in 2012.

 

As I've said in a number of posts both today, and since the day I arrived,  it was time for Polian to go.   A new voice, a new direction.     He made a number of mistakes and his drafts went south....

 

That said,  his team continued to win.    Throughout all the mistakes,  he found a way to keep the Colts winning.   And it was more than just Peyton Manning -- which I think is a complete fanboy view of what happened.

 

And winning is how people are judged in sports.....    it's the ultimate bottom line business and the Colts won.

 

Hey,  since I like Grigson so much,  I'm happy Polian was let go.   And I've noted in a number of posts the mistakes Grigson has made.    And if he makes more of them,  he'll find himself on the outside looking in.

 

But the idea of firing Grigson now is, again -- fanboy talk -- and an embarrassment.

[CanuckColt]

I'm aware of all of this.....   and I know he signed guys to long, big contracts that put us in the mess we were in in 2012.

 

As I've said in a number of posts both today, and since the day I arrived,  it was time for Polian to go.   A new voice, a new direction.     He made a number of mistakes and his drafts went south....

 

That said,  his team continued to win.    Throughout all the mistakes,  he found a way to keep the Colts winning.   And it was more than just Peyton Manning -- which I think is a complete fanboy view of what happened.

 

And winning is how people are judged in sports.....    it's the ultimate bottom line business and the Colts won.

 

Hey,  since I like Grigson so much,  I'm happy Polian was let go.   And I've noted in a number of posts the mistakes Grigson has made.    And if he makes more of them,  he'll find himself on the outside looking in.

 

But the idea of firing Grigson now is, again -- fanboy talk -- and an embarrassment.

Well said.  Right on!

[Superman]

I'm aware of all of this.....   and I know he signed guys to long, big contracts that put us in the mess we were in in 2012.

 

As I've said in a number of posts both today, and since the day I arrived,  it was time for Polian to go.   A new voice, a new direction.     He made a number of mistakes and his drafts went south....

 

That said,  his team continued to win.    Throughout all the mistakes,  he found a way to keep the Colts winning.   And it was more than just Peyton Manning -- which I think is a complete fanboy view of what happened.

 

And winning is how people are judged in sports.....    it's the ultimate bottom line business and the Colts won.

 

Hey,  since I like Grigson so much,  I'm happy Polian was let go.   And I've noted in a number of posts the mistakes Grigson has made.    And if he makes more of them,  he'll find himself on the outside looking in.

 

But the idea of firing Grigson now is, again -- fanboy talk -- and an embarrassment.

 

Without doing a complete post-mortem, the Polian firing was about more than just needing a change. He had put together bad rosters, starting with bad drafting, overpaid vets, and lack of willingness to bring in new talent. And whether that was him or his son, they were a package deal at that point, and needed to go. Not because the team was going to change dramatically, but because they hadn't done a good job. 

 

And no, it wasn't just Manning carrying the team by himself, in spite of everyone else; there were other good players here as well, that Polian should get credit for. But the overall roster had suffered, and that's solely on Polian.

 

Now, Grigson has had three years. We're not talking about a gradual decline, we're not talking about someone who is stuck in a rut that he dug out, or someone who has put the team in bad situations. So no, there's no reason, IMO, to be talking about getting rid of Grigson. But he does need to bring the heat this offseason. This is his team, his roster, his staff, entirely. This roster is a reflection of his ability to build a team.

 

But just to be clear, saying "the team was winning, therefore the GM must have been doing a good job" isn't analysis. It's a platitude. And in the case of Polian, particularly down the stretch, it doesn't hold up.

[NewColtsFan]

Yes, and I stick by that statement. Just like I wouldn't use wins as the ONLY factor in determining QB success. I'm sorry, but it can be misleading and can mask mediocre performance. I think Grigson deserves another yr, but he has to pick up his game if he wants to have a long tenure.

 

If you had simply said....     "winning is the most important aspect of the job,  but it's not the only aspect"  then you would've been fine.

 

But you're not happy with Grigson just as you weren't happy with Polian.    So, suddenly you trot out the nonsense about winning...   but trotting out a teams record isn't proof he is doing a swell job.

 

Downplaying the single most important aspect to a GM's job simply isn't a good argument.    And don't blame me for mis-characterizing.     You're only saying it because deep down you know how sill your argument looks.

 

Own it.    The problem is yours,  not mine.

[NewColtsFan]

Without doing a complete post-mortem, the Polian firing was about more than just needing a change. He had put together bad rosters, starting with bad drafting, overpaid vets, and lack of willingness to bring in new talent. And whether that was him or his son, they were a package deal at that point, and needed to go. Not because the team was going to change dramatically, but because they hadn't done a good job. 

 

And no, it wasn't just Manning carrying the team by himself, in spite of everyone else; there were other good players here as well, that Polian should get credit for. But the overall roster had suffered, and that's solely on Polian.

 

Now, Grigson has had three years. We're not talking about a gradual decline, we're not talking about someone who is stuck in a rut that he dug out, or someone who has put the team in bad situations. So no, there's no reason, IMO, to be talking about getting rid of Grigson. But he does need to bring the heat this offseason. This is his team, his roster, his staff, entirely. This roster is a reflection of his ability to build a team.

 

But just to be clear, saying "the team was winning, therefore the GM must have been doing a good job" isn't analysis. It's a platitude. And in the case of Polian, particularly down the stretch, it doesn't hold up.

 

Wow....   we seem to be missing one another.   I've repeatedly aknowledged all that you said.

 

But despite all the problems the Colts kept winning.    Now, maybe had he stayed, maybe had Irsay stuck by him,  maybe everything would've come unglued for years?    Who knows?    I don't know how fast Polian would've turned things around?  And no one else here does either.

 

But while he was here,  despite the roster that suffered and all the other mistakes that were made,  the Colts kept winning.   And that takes some serious GM skills to be making personnel mistakes the way he did in the draft and STILL keep winning.

 

If you think any old GM can make the level of mistakes that Polian made and still keep winning,  then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Winning is the top priority and Polian did more of that over a 10-12 year window than anyone.   He's got scoreboard all over this.

[Superman]

Wow....   we seem to be missing one another.   I've repeatedly aknowledged all that you said.

 

But despite all the problems the Colts kept winning.    Now, maybe had he stayed, maybe had Irsay stuck by him,  maybe everything would've come unglued for years?    Who knows?    I don't know how fast Polian would've turned things around?  And no one else here does either.

 

But while he was here,  despite the roster that suffered and all the other mistakes that were made,  the Colts kept winning.   And that takes some serious GM skills to be making personnel mistakes the way he did in the draft and STILL keep winning.

 

If you think any old GM can make the level of mistakes that Polian made and still keep winning,  then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Winning is the top priority and Polian did more of that over a 10-12 year window than anyone.   He's got scoreboard all over this.

 

Polian only deserves credit for the team continuing to win in that he drafted the playmakers that were on those rosters. But those guys had all been here for a long time, for the most part: Manning, Reggie, Addai, Mathis, Freeney, Sanders, Bethea, Clark, Garcon, Collie, etc. I'm sure I'm missing some, but for the most part, the core was all here in 2007. Garcon and Collie got on the field in 2009. There are a couple other guys, as well.

 

But the point is that Polian put that team together, then was content to just sit back and watch what happened. Like an ant farm. You do the work at the beginning, and the ants do the rest. He deserves credit for adding those guys, but they carried the team from 2007 on. His drafts produced little, he refused to use free agency, and the talent slowly began to erode. That's why the team went from 14-2 to 2-14 so quickly, so drastically. 

 

So I think where we're missing each other is that you're giving him credit for the wins, and I'm saying he had already started letting the team fall apart. That started as early as 2008, to be honest. All those games were won primarily on the backs of players he drafted in the early part of the decade, or before. Very little new blood, almost no top notch players, came in the building in his last five years. I don't think he showed skill in putting together a team that would keep winning. I think he showed complacency in putting together a team that collapsed in on itself in just two seasons.

[RockThatBlue]

You mean we haven't won a super bowl each year under pagano and grigson?

Faaaaaaaarrrrr everybody

[OLD FAN MAN]

I agree.  He's had far more hits imo than misses, and just to clarify I'm not counting Werner as a miss yet.  He may never be a great pass rusher but he can still be a very good Sam backer in our defense.  No, that may not be what we were hoping to get from him, but still if he becomes a multi year starter then that's still pretty good value out of a late first round pick.  I'm definitely with you on the Trent trade.  I was never happy about trading a 1st for a RB.  Other than that though and possibly Landry, I can't think of any other really big misses.  DThomas didn't work out but it's not like he came with a note that suggested he would sustain a season ending injury in preseason 2 years in a row.

what is wrong with a first for a rb? we got in the first , brown, addai, james, and faulk.not too bad I think I would take james and faulk any time in the first, it seems like this forums latest  in thing is don't take a rb in the first and everyone repeats it. glad the forum don't make our picks

[jvan1973]

newsome was picked in rd 5, brady and mathis were picked in the sixth, is he as good as either of them? could not see him in the pats game. invisible.

my god, you are trying to make a point about his success by comparing him to two of the best sixth round picks in the last 20 years. How is trent compared to the best 1st rounders ever taken. good grief

[esmort]

what is wrong with a first for a rb? we got in the first , brown, addai, james, and faulk.not too bad I think I would take james and faulk any time in the first, it seems like this forums latest  in thing is don't take a rb in the first and everyone repeats it. glad the forum don't make our picks

 

The league has totally changed since Faulk and James .... and I would argue that Brown was a waste of a 1st ... IMO Addai was not worth a 1st either.  League rules and trends have devalued the running back position and many top shelf RBs are found outside the 1st; even late and UDFA.  Serviceable RBs are also one of the easiest pieces to find as FAs mid-season. Using a 1st on a RB is a waste when we have so many other positions that need addressed.

[OLD FAN MAN]

The league has totally changed since Faulk and James .... and I would argue that Brown was a waste of a 1st ... IMO Addai was not worth a 1st either.  League rules and trends have devalued the running back position and many top shelf RBs are found outside the 1st; even late and UDFA.  Serviceable RBs are also one of the easiest pieces to find as FAs mid-season. Using a 1st on a RB is a waste when we have so many other positions that need addressed.

can we run the ball? I rest my case.

[jvan1973]

can we run the ball? I rest my case.

poor oline and worse backs will have that effect

[esmort]

can we run the ball? I rest my case.

 

Not effectively, but that had a lot to do with the OL.  Trent was a 1st round RB ... did he make our running game better? Better re-open the case!

[dudeski]

Don't be that guy....

why not

[ricker182]

You can't argue with results. From 2-14 to making it to the AFC Championship in a span of 3 years is successful.

[cm43sports]

Grigson needs to leave Browns players alone, don't trade for them or sign them.

D'Qwell Jackson and Mike Adams are both former Browns players and current Pro Bowlers. Also, for as much as you dislike Richardson, the year before he became a Colt, he was voted as a top 100 player by his peers albeit his stay in Indy has been a failure.