9 AFCCG appearances vs 9 one and done's

[The Old Crow]

No. My point is Brady has become one of the greatest QBs of all time with wins AND stats. Flacco has yet to make a single pro bowl or throw for more than 25 TDs in any season in an era where all the rules favor the QB.

But you are telling me Ryan is better than Flacco as Joe's winning resume grows, while Ryan can't even win a weak NFC South. Flacco had a 27th ranked passing defense and still almost won again in NE , shredding your vaunted secondary for 4 touchdowns. Had it not been for our weak secondary , it would have been another victory. Peyton had 5 league MVP's vs Tom's 2, so using your logic of Ryan over Flacco, than Manning is better than Brady .

[amfootball]

But you are telling me Ryan is better than Flacco as Joe's winning resume grows, while Ryan can't even win a weak NFC South. Flacco had a 27th ranked passing defense and still almost won again in NE , shredding your vaunted secondary for 4 touchdowns. Had it not been for our weak secondary , it would have been another victory. Peyton had 5 league MVP's vs Tom's 2, so using your logic of Ryan over Flacco, than Manning is better than Brady .

Joe has one ring not three like Brady so stop with this comparison like Joe is somehow won par with Brady in terms of winning. He isn't. In the regular season or post season. At some point Joe has to have some regular seasons that are at least pro bowl worthy to be in the discussion among the better passers in the league. The fact that he doesn't and his team is still getting to the playoffs is more of a testament to the team around him and Ozzie than his play on the field.

[The Old Crow]

Joe has one ring not three like Brady so stop with this comparison like Joe is somehow won par with Brady in terms of winning. He isn't. In the regular season or post season. At some point Joe has to have some regular seasons that are at least pro bowl worthy to be in the discussion among the better passers in the league. The fact that he doesn't and his team is still getting to the playoffs is more of a testament to the team around him and Ozzie than his play on the field.

Look if you want to compare , Baltimore has six NFL Championships and Boston 3 , but who's counting ?

Now, and I will repeat this because you are so Brady- centric. My comparison is how you yourself have framed the Manning- Brady argument one way , and the Ryan - Flacco argument the other way using the same criteria. It is totally hypocritical. Every time I point this out, you bring up Brady- Flacco which I'm not comparing it to. Anyway Joe's only been in the league seven years. He has plenty more time to accomplish more. What , did you wake up on the wrong side of bed today ?

[amfootball]

Look if you want to compare , Baltimore has six NFL Championships and Boston 3 , but who's counting ?

Now, and I will repeat this because you are so Brady- centric. My comparison is how you yourself have framed the Manning- Brady argument one way , and the Ryan - Flacco argument the other way using the same criteria. It is totally hypocritical. Every time I point this out, you bring up Brady- Flacco which I'm not comparing it to. Anyway Joe's only been in the league seven years. He has plenty more time to accomplish more. What , did you wake up on the wrong side of bed today ?

So in your mind Flacco=Brady and Ryan=Manning. Good luck with that ...

[The Old Crow]

So in your mind Flacco=Brady and Ryan=Manning. Good luck with that ...

I wouldn't put it quite like that , but we are talking about one guy with slightly higher regular season stats, and one guy with more playoff success. Who do you pick ? I think I know who you pick, and you know darn well my comparison.

[amfootball]

I wouldn't put it quite like that , but we are talking about one guy with slightly higher regular season stats, and one guy with more playoff success. Who do you pick ? I think I know who you pick, and you know darn well my comparison.

Ryan has MUCH better stats. But yes, in a playoff game, I roll with Joe.

[The Old Crow]

Ryan has MUCH better stats. But yes, in a playoff game, I roll with Joe.

Manning 5 league MVP's to Tom's 2, just broke some of Tom's records last year, you get the drift... Playoffs I roll with Tom .

[amfootball]

Manning 5 league MVP's to Tom's 2, just broke some of Tom's records last year, you get the drift... Playoffs I roll with Tom .

I get what you are saying but the comparison of Brady and Manning is a real stretch with Flacco and Ryan. lol.

[The Old Crow]

I get what you are saying but the comparison of Brady and Manning is a real stretch with Flacco and Ryan. lol.

But it's totally true on a non elite scale. You are injecting the personalities in there , but the reasoning is the same. If all things are fairly equal, you take the QB with more playoff success in a comparison, right ?

[amfootball]

But it's totally true on a non elite scale. You are injecting the personalities in there , but the reasoning is the same. If all things are fairly equal, you take the QB with more playoff success in a comparison, right ?

I think the two QBs have to be closer outside of the playoffs though and this is where we disagree. As I said to you, Brady was a two time pro bowl QB during this 3 ring period. He was one of the top 3 QBs in his conference. As his career progressed he became one of the best of all time with league MVPs and historic seasons. Now, had Brady not morphed into a great passer and not be in the top 5 or top 3 of most passing categories all time then I would have to concur with Manning fans that Manning was better. I think Brady would have been viewed more along the likes of say Troy Aikman or Big Ben and that would be fair. But that is not who he became and not who he was even during the champ years when he was playing as one of the best QBs in the conference.

 

At some point, Joe has to be better than average for you to have a legit case over saying he is better than a Ryan or a Stafford. He was not even that good in the playoffs until 2012 so you really don't have that either. In many cases the Ravens won in spite of him. I do think he has the potential to be that guy and as you have said the Ravens are still rebuilding around him but right now he is not that guy.

[The Old Crow]

I think the two QBs have to be closer outside of the playoffs though and this is where we disagree. As I said to you, Brady was a two time pro bowl QB during this 3 ring period. He was one of the top 3 QBs in his conference. As his career progressed he became one of the best of all time with league MVPs and historic seasons. Now, had Brady not morphed into a great passer and not be in the top 5 or top 3 of most passing categories all time then I would have to concur with Manning fans that Manning was better. I think Brady would have been viewed more along the likes of say Troy Aikman or Big Ben and that would be fair. But that is not who he became and not who he was even during the champ years when he was playing as one of the best QBs in the conference.

At some point, Joe has to be better than average for you to have a legit case over saying he is better than a Ryan or a Stafford. He was not even that good in the playoffs until 2012 so you really don't have that either. In many cases the Ravens won in spite of him. I do think he has the potential to be that guy and as you have said the Ravens are still rebuilding around him but right now he is not that guy.

What has Ryan a accomplished ? He's 2 time pro bowl versus Joe 0, but Joe has a Super Bowl MVP, and 3 AFCCG appearances. Peyton has 14 pro bowls, to Tom's 10, and five league MVP's to Tom's 2. I'm using the same criteria you Patriots fans apply to Manning / Brady, to Ryan/ Flacco, and you guys conveniently don't see it. The Colts fans who argue for Manning would have more credibility in this argument.

[mahagga73]

lol. Yeah. We have been unbelievable spoiled the last decade and a half. Young folks think we have always been winners. No idea how much suffering we did for decades and decades. lol.

I can remember back when the Colts and Pats were the laughingstocks of the AFC, early 80's.

[mahagga73]

Matt Ryan is better than Flacco. Not Dalton, but Ryan, absolutely. Everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday.

And I have nothing against Joe Flacco.

No he isn't , lol. Look at Flacco s playoff stats. Ryan is choke city in t he playoffs. Playoffs are what matters. Flacco excels when it counts.

[JimJaime]

It is all about perception. For some this is a great achievement. I don't see it that way. The mighty Pats, the #1 seed and everyone's favorite to win it all, should have never been down by 14 points twice to a team that barely made it to the post-season.

I was showing it as why it's never been done before in the playoffs. And the Ravens are the Pats Kryptonite, so it was an amazing feat. IMO

[Superman]

No he isn't , lol. Look at Flacco s playoff stats. Ryan is choke city in t he playoffs. Playoffs are what matters. Flacco excels when it counts.

Ryan has never choked in the playoffs, and the playoffs aren't all that matters.

Flacco, however, did throw a pick on 2nd down last week that pretty much cost them the game, though.

[Superman]

What has Ryan a accomplished ? He's 2 time pro bowl versus Joe 0, but Joe has a Super Bowl MVP, and 3 AFCCG appearances. Peyton has 14 pro bowls, to Tom's 10, and five league MVP's to Tom's 2. I'm using the same criteria you Patriots fans apply to Manning / Brady, to Ryan/ Flacco, and you guys conveniently don't see it. The Colts fans who argue for Manning would have more credibility in this argument.

The Ravens have undoubtedly been more successful in the playoffs with Flacco, and he was exceptional in 2012 and for 7 quarters this year. Oh, and the AFCCG in 2011. Nothing against Flacco, who lately has been really good in the postseason. But that doesn't make him a better player.

You're right, this is a lot like the early years of the Manning v Brady debates. Ravens have a better defense and do better in the playoffs, Falcons have better passing weapons and Ryan has better stats.

For me, though, Ryan is a better passer. He carries his offense. He makes all the throws, he handles pressure and late game situations, and despite his team's woes lately, he's still productive and effective. And when his team straightens out, his efficiency and overall production will still be top notch.

[The Old Crow]

The Ravens have undoubtedly been more successful in the playoffs with Flacco, and he was exceptional in 2012 and for 7 quarters this year. Oh, and the AFCCG in 2011. Nothing against Flacco, who lately has been really good in the postseason. But that doesn't make him a better player.

You're right, this is a lot like the early years of the Manning v Brady debates. Ravens have a better defense and do better in the playoffs, Falcons have better passing weapons and Ryan has better stats.

For me, though, Ryan is a better passer. He carries his offense. He makes all the throws, he handles pressure and late game situations, and despite his team's woes lately, he's still productive and effective. And when his team straightens out, his efficiency and overall production will still be top notch.

I disagree about Ryan being better than Flacco, but at least your argument is consistent , whereas AM's is not. She always props Brady over Manning because of Championships and Playoff success , while refusing to give Flacco the same nod over Ryan. Even though I disagree with you, you are presenting a consistent statistically based argument. My opinion is both Ryan/ Flacco stats are close, but you have to go with Joe because of the playoffs and Super Bowl win. Another thing, the Ravens defense hasn't been good the last few years, just so you know. 17th when they won Super Bowl, and 27th in pass defense this year.

The other funny thing is when Flacco outplays Brady, it's because the Ravens defense is great, and theirs is weak, but when Brady wins, it's because he's a legend, never saying our defense is weaker than traditional Raven's defenses.

[The Old Crow]

Ryan has never choked in the playoffs, and the playoffs aren't all that matters.

Flacco, however, did throw a pick on 2nd down last week that pretty much cost them the game, though.

Matt Ryan 1 -4 in playoffs 9 TD's 7 INT's

Joe Flacco 10-5. 7 road wins. 25 TD's 10 INT's

You be the judge !

[mahagga73]

Matt Ryan 1 -4 in playoffs 9 TD's 7 INT's

Joe Flacco 10-5. 7 road wins. 25 TD's 10 INT's

You be the judge !

No contest.

[The Old Crow]

No contest.

Thanks, I'm with you !

[amfootball]

I disagree about Ryan being better than Flacco, but at least your argument is consistent , whereas AM's is not. She always props Brady over Manning because of Championships and Playoff success , while refusing to give Flacco the same nod over Ryan. Even though I disagree with you, you are presenting a consistent statistically based argument. My opinion is both Ryan/ Flacco stats are close, but you have to go with Joe because of the playoffs and Super Bowl win. Another thing, the Ravens defense hasn't been good the last few years, just so you know. 17th when they won Super Bowl, and 27th in pass defense this year.

The other funny thing is when Flacco outplays Brady, it's because the Ravens defense is great, and theirs is weak, but when Brady wins, it's because he's a legend, never saying our defense is weaker than traditional Raven's defenses.

I never propped Brady over Manning until he became an elite passer post 2006. Manning was unquestionably the better QB from 1998-2006 BUT again Brady was a pro bowl QB and one of the top QBs in his conference pretty much every season.

 

As Sueprman said, Ryan is statistically better and asked to do more. That was true of Brady post champ years as well. Still remains to be seen if Joe is that guy. But for the playoffs? No question, Flacco is better and more clutch and the guy I would want in Jan/Feb. In fairness though, Ryan has not had the team around him yet to get to the post season as often as Joe. Many more years for both to prove themselves further.

[-JJ-]

I never propped Brady over Manning until he became an elite passer post 2006. Manning was unquestionably the better QB from 1998-2006 BUT again Brady was a pro bowl QB and one of the top QBs in his conference pretty much every season.

 

As Sueprman said, Ryan is statistically better and asked to do more. That was true of Brady post champ years as well. Still remains to be seen if Joe is that guy. But for the playoffs? No question, Flacco is better and more clutch and the guy I would want in Jan/Feb. In fairness though, Ryan has not had the team around him yet to get to the post season as often as Joe. Many more years for both to prove themselves further.

Obvious typo but I did have to laugh at the inadvertent Freudian slip. Sue-pr-man

[SteelCityColt]

Obvious typo but I did have to laugh at the inadvertent Freudian slip. Sue-pr-man

It reads like the answer to a cryptic crossword clue

[The Old Crow]

I never propped Brady over Manning until he became an elite passer post 2006. Manning was unquestionably the better QB from 1998-2006 BUT again Brady was a pro bowl QB and one of the top QBs in his conference pretty much every season.

As Sueprman said, Ryan is statistically better and asked to do more. That was true of Brady post champ years as well. Still remains to be seen if Joe is that guy. But for the playoffs? No question, Flacco is better and more clutch and the guy I would want in Jan/Feb. In fairness though, Ryan has not had the team around him yet to get to the post season as often as Joe. Many more years for both to prove themselves further.

Ryan has had some good teams, better receivers , and a weaker division to work in that drives up his numbers.

[degjohn]

Brady never had excellent WR's till around 2007.  And no, Troy Brown is no Marvin Harrison or Reggie Wayne.  Brady never had a great TE till 2010 with Gronk.  Peyton had Clark who was excellent.  So you got Harrison, Wayne, Clark, 3 possible HOF'ers on the same team.  Not including all the other WR's the Colts had.  Polian set up a tool shed of offensive weapons for Peyton to choose from.

 

The Pats never had a dominant offense with dominant WR's till 2007 when they became more offense oriented. 

 

The Pats started gutting their defense in 2002-03 starting with Lawyer Miloy then later with Ty Law, Asante Samuel, Randall Gay when they started under valuing the secondary and bringing in guys off the street to play DB.

 

The Colts franchise built that team around Peyton in 1998 a good 3 and a half years before Brady took his first ever NFL snap in a regular season game as a backup QB in an emergency situation after the starter (Bledsoe) got injured.

 

Colts had better teams compared to the Brady era Pats in 2002, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009.  Brady was out during 2008.

 

Broncos with Peyton were better in 2012 and 2013 than the Pats were.

 

So 7 seasons between 2001 to 2014 Peyton was on better teams.

 

Peyton has been the MVP 5 times an NFL record.

 

Peyton had the greatest offense in the history of the NFL with the 2013 Broncos.

 

So Peyton only having won 1 super bowl after 17 years and 5 MVP's going 9 one and done's is not good.  That would be the equivalent of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant only winning one title.

 

And yes, Brady has done more with less through out more of his career than Peyton has.  And the Pats haven't had a strong defense since 2005.  They still have no pass rush as of the 2014 season.

 

There are obviously many ways to look at this and argue. I would say that Brady likely has come through a bit more than Manning. However, analysis of data do not indicate that Brady has been greatly better than Manning. They do however indicate that more often Brady likely had a better overall team. 

 

Nate Silver (the guy who has predicted elections correctly lately) analyzed expected wins vs. actual wins in postseason and concluded that Patriots with Brady have slightly overachieved while Manning teams have underachieved in relation to expected wins. Before this last weekend Brady was 18-8 vs. expected 16.8-9.2 wins. Manning is 11-13 with expected 13.2-10.8. See http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-clutch-postseason-quarterback-of-all-time-is-eli-manning/

 

I would argue Brady has been a bit fortunate whereas Manning has been a bit unfortunate. Brady's fortune includes having Belichick and vinateiri, the tuck rule game where they would have likely lost, the 2006 playoff game against Chargers where Brady threw interception down to scores in 4th quarter only for the Chargers guy have it stripped and go back to Patriots. More recently, Manning (88 yard td drive in 2012 playoffs) and Brady (this year) both led 4th quarter touchdown drives against Baltimore. Difference is Manning's Bronco teammates gave up a 70 yard hail mary to Flacco while Patriots intercepted Flacco as they were driving for potential game winning tie.  A bit of unfortunate for Manning included Vanderjagt missing two game winning or tying field goals in playoffs, Jim Caldwell calling Jets timeout in 2010 after Manning led a drive to take lead in game with about a minute left, worst starting field position avg. of any quarterback in history including 2009 super bowl (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/qb-postseason-drive-stats - quote: 'no one can take the crown for notoriously bad field position in the playoffs from Peyton Manning')

 

My argument is simply that the difference between Manning and Brady in playoffs is not as stark as people like to claim. It is a complex subject in which those who take the time to examine the data (and have the expertise - not me but people like those at 538 or Bill Barnwell at Grantland) come to a different conclusion than conventional wisdom would indicate. 

[-JJ-]

There are obviously many ways to look at this and argue. I would say that Brady likely has come through a bit more than Manning. However, analysis of data do not indicate that Brady has been greatly better than Manning. They do however indicate that more often Brady likely had a better overall team. 

 

Nate Silver (the guy who has predicted elections correctly lately) analyzed expected wins vs. actual wins in postseason and concluded that Patriots with Brady have slightly overachieved while Manning teams have underachieved in relation to expected wins. Before this last weekend Brady was 18-8 vs. expected 16.8-9.2 wins. Manning is 11-13 with expected 13.2-10.8. See http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-clutch-postseason-quarterback-of-all-time-is-eli-manning/

 

I would argue Brady has been a bit fortunate whereas Manning has been a bit unfortunate. Brady's fortune includes having Belichick and vinateiri, the tuck rule game where they would have likely lost, the 2006 playoff game against Chargers where Brady threw interception down to scores in 4th quarter only for the Chargers guy have it stripped and go back to Patriots. More recently, Manning (88 yard td drive in 2012 playoffs) and Brady (this year) both led 4th quarter touchdown drives against Baltimore. Difference is Manning's Bronco teammates gave up a 70 yard hail mary to Flacco while Patriots intercepted Flacco as they were driving for potential game winning tie.  A bit of unfortunate for Manning included Vanderjagt missing two game winning or tying field goals in playoffs, Jim Caldwell calling Jets timeout in 2010 after Manning led a drive to take lead in game with about a minute left, worst starting field position avg. of any quarterback in history including 2009 super bowl (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/qb-postseason-drive-stats - quote: 'no one can take the crown for notoriously bad field position in the playoffs from Peyton Manning')

 

My argument is simply that the difference between Manning and Brady in playoffs is not as stark as people like to claim. It is a complex subject in which those who take the time to examine the data (and have the expertise - not me but people like those at 538 or Bill Barnwell at Grantland) come to a different conclusion than conventional wisdom would indicate. 

Interesting stats from Nate.  Even if Fox news never believes him (political joke).

thx for posting

[SteelDragon]

Perhaps the biggest chasm between Brady and Manning was cemented this weekend. Brady achieved history by becoming the first QB in the history of the NFL to come back twice from being down 14 points and guiding the Pats to their 9th AFCCG appearance since he became the starter in 2001. He also has the most post-season wins at 19 in the history of the game and will go for #20 Sunday night.

 

Manning, on the other hand, lost in miserable fashion at home to a team he was favorite to beat for his 9th one and done. The next QB on the list with the most one and done's is Montana with four. So Manning has more than twice as many one and done's as any other QB in history and of course the most post-season losses at 13 in the history of the game.

Yes, Brady had played on some better teams and has had the benefit of a better braintrust. Do you think Manning would not have won 3 Superbowls if he had been a Patriot?

[da_pats_troll]

I can remember back when the Colts and Pats were the laughingstocks of the AFC, early 80's.

 

I think you are sugar coating that. I loved playing the colts then. We actually had a chance to get that 1 win!!!!

[MJS87]

All brady fans can do is post team accomplishments, that's all he has. W/o Belichick he's great, but probably not a HOFer. Honestly this argument was permanently ended when Brady's team went 11-5 without him and mannings went 2-14. It is a fact that Tom Brady provides your team with only a few more wins than Matt Cassel. Please...

[Colts_Fan12]

All cause of cheating haha

[MJS87]

You put peyton on those pats teams from 2001-now, all other personel being the same, they would be unstoppable. Brady has nearly always had a good defense to back him up, as well as the best coach ever. Peyton would've won 6-7 SBs on those teams where he wouldn't have been relied upon to do everything, like he was in indy.

[Dr. Guildo]

Let us not forget the x2 one team cheated when talking about records.

[ricker182]

Football is a team game through and through. It's proven every season.

Even when the Colts won, Manning wasn't anything special in the post season.

[mahagga73]

I think you are sugar coating that. I loved playing the colts then. We actually had a chance to get that 1 win!!!!

The Colts only 2 wins one season were the Patriots and I think it was the first and last games of the season. Grogan era, Mike Pagel.

[mahagga73]

The Colts only 2 wins one season were the Patriots and I think it was the first and last games of the season. Grogan era, Mike Pagel.Fifteen losses in between.

[-JJ-]

low - Mike Pagel- now there's a name from the past I had forgotten