Bills request to interview Pep Hamilton

[krunk]

I just can't see Pep as a head coach, he has much more of a coordinator type of feel to me.  

Kind of like each time Romeo Crennel tries to be a head coach. Just never works out, and I 

see Pep in the same light.  If he chooses to leave, he should do his best to have a good qb

in place.  If I were him I'd stay in Indy.

[Larry Horseman]

I see your point. You believe that any women or "minorities" cannot make it on their own achievements and potential.

Our president is mixed race, not fully white and not fully black-so much for white men running the show.

Affirmative action (and policies like the Rooney Rule) is insulting. Would Pep be interviewed because they think he's possibly good enough for the job or is it his ethnicity? Due to the Rooney Rule, we'll never know.

Like labels, do you? Let's label everyone and not allow one to make it on their own accords, or would you rather judge someone by their performance? Talk about regression.

I don't like labels but to pretend they don't exist because you don't like them isn't the answer. It has nothing to do with one's ability to get or do the job with or without assistance. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world where opportunities are equal so policies are needed.

[krunk]

Racism is a word that the media throws around without defining it or giving evidence of its existence in its claims.  The word means nothing anymore as it's used so flagrantly.  Ricker referred to the Civil Rights Act of 1964; at that time, this was a necessary piece of legislation to pass.  It is still effective but to indicate that more legislation is needed due to some unspecified claim is absurd.  If there is discrimination that is proven, there is enough legislation and policies to deal with it.  Claiming some "it happened or didn't happen due to racism" (whatever it may be) is a childish method of handling problems.  

 

Racism definitely has been a part of the American culture.  Does it exist in some circles?  yes, within all each ethnicity.  It is no longer "institutional" as the media would love to have you believe.  

 

To keep this discussion relating to the NFL, I'll refer back to the Rooney Rule.  Pep Hamilton, an offensive coordinator who may be interviewing for an HC job with the Bills.  Is he being interviewed because of his ethnicity or because what the GM perceives as his ability to coach a team?  Are they checking the Rooney box or do they have faith in Pep?  

 

 

What do you propose be done so that the hiring process is fair?  You're saying it should be based on merit alone which in theory is true, however it's already been proven in this league and other arenas that people are rejected from positions due to their skin color or other bogus criterion.   Also what leads you to make a statement of finality about institutional racism no longer existing?  What proof do you have that it no longer exists?

 

And I say this with a reminder to you that  out of 32 NFL teams in 2014 only 2 have Black head coaches(Steelers and Bucs) and one has a Hispanic coach(Ron Rivera/Carolina Panthers).  Despite the majority of all the players being non-white.

 

The disparity exists all the way down to the coordinator positions as well.

 

If you don't want to call it institutional racism that's fine, but we have to agree the numbers are very disproportionate.  And it's this way even after a policy has been put in place,  I wonder what the numbers would look like if no one had even addressed the subject previously?

[Robert Johnson]

This is dumb. They could just skip waiting for him or any other black candidate still in the playoffs and just "interview" any random black coach/coordinator who's team is no longer playing, if it were truly just about fulfilling the Rooney Rule

I won't comment any further about how I really feel about some of these comments. I'll just say it makes me wonder...

Not even worth responding to Canuckcolt,the only reason he comes here is to bash someone,whether it be a coach or a player

[Gavin]

What do you propose be done so that the hiring process is fair?  You're saying it should be based on merit alone which in theory is true, however it's already been proven in this league and other arenas that people are rejected from positions due to their skin color or other bogus criterion.   Also what leads you to make a statement of finality about institutional racism no longer existing?  What proof do you have that it no longer exists?

 

And I say this with a reminder to you that  out of 32 NFL teams in 2014 only 2 have Black head coaches(Steelers and Bucs) and one has a Hispanic coach(Ron Rivera/Carolina Panthers).  Despite the majority of all the players being non-white.

 

The disparity exists all the way down to the coordinator positions as well.

 

If you don't want to call it institutional racism that's fine, but we have to agree the numbers are very disproportionate.  And it's this way even after a policy has been put in place,  I wonder what the numbers would look like if no one had even addressed the subject previously?

There have been several black or other ethnic back ground coaches in the NFL over the years in multiple organizationa

 

Mike Singletary

Dennis Green

Herm Edwards

Tony Dungy

Lovie Smith

Fritz Pollard (1925)

Tom Flores

Art Shell

Ray Rhodes

Marvin Lewis

Romeo Crennel

Mike Tomlin

Emmit Thomas

Jim Caldwell

Raheem Morris

Perry Fewell

Leslie Frazier

Ron Rivera

Mel Tucker

 

Vince Lombardi himself was Italian

[NewColtsFan]

Not knocking Pep but other than the Rooney Rule why would a team want to interview him for a HC gig?

 

 

How about because he was the OC of the NFL's leading offense for roughly 80% of the season......

[NewColtsFan]

There have been several black or other ethnic back ground coaches in the NFL over the years in multiple organizationa

 

Mike Singletary

Dennis Green

Herm Edwards

Tony Dungy

Lovie Smith

Fritz Pollard (1925)

Tom Flores

Art Shell

Ray Rhodes

Marvin Lewis

Romeo Crennel

Mike Tomlin

Emmit Thomas

Jim Caldwell

Raheem Morris

Perry Fewell

Leslie Frazier

Ron Rivera

Mel Tucker

 

Vince Lombardi himself was Italian

 

The NFL's record of minorities in positions of power and authority is without question completely embarrassing.....

 

Your list -- while certainly not the complete list -- offers no comfort or political cover.

[jvan1973]

Buffalo isn't going to hire Pep Hamilton..

...Pep will eventually be a head coach but these are just warm up interviews for down the line when he really has a chnace

So the bills are wasting their time to interview pep to give him practice for another team he might get hired to at a later date? You realize that makes zero sense right?

[Gavin]

The NFL's record of minorities in positions of power and authority is without question completely embarrassing.....

 

Your list -- while certainly not the complete list -- offers no comfort or political cover.

No doubt racism exists in the NFL (Just like other organizations) but I certainly don't think that its throughout every owner in the NFL and that every owner in the NFL refuses to hire an ethnic coach to be their HC....Not to mention there are some owners in the NFL that are of almost all ethnic backgrounds

 

Arthur Blank-Jewish

Steve Bischiotti- Italian

Zygi Wilf-Jewish

Shahid Khan

Alex Spanos-Greek

Jim Irsay-Mom was Polish, Dad was Hungarian Jewish

 

There is a lot that goes into hiring a HC of any color, But no doubt racism does exist in some circles of the NFL but I don't see it as this broad wide sweeping epidemic throughout the entire NFL

[NewColtsFan]

No doubt racism exists in the NFL (Just like other organizations) but I certainly don't think that its throughout every owner in the NFL and that every owner in the NFL refuses to hire an ethnic coach to be their HC....Not to mention there are some owners in the NFL that are of almost all ethnic backgrounds

 

Arthur Blank-Jewish

Steve Bischiotti- Italian

Zygi Wilf-Jewish

Shahid Khan

Alex Spanos-Greek

Jim Irsay-Mom was Polish, Dad was Hungarian Jewish

 

There is a lot that goes into hiring a HC of any color, But no doubt racism does exist in some circles of the NFL but I don't see it as this broad wide sweeping epidemic throughout the entire NFL

 

There are several things to note in your post.

 

You're confusing race with ethnic background.   Those are not the same.   The people you list are white, except Kahn who I believe is Middle Eastern.

 

Second....    There's a difference between simple racism (I hate all people of color)  and institutionalized racism (I don't know or associate with many people of color.   I have nothing against them,  but I have no comfort level with them to the extent that I'm willing to turn my football team over to them)

 

Those are two different things.     I suspect there are very few out and out racist owners in American sports.

 

But I suspect most of these owners have had very few occasions to know people of color and get comfortable with them.   That leads to fewer interviews and fewer opportunities to be hired....

[GwinnettColt]

What do you propose be done so that the hiring process is fair?  You're saying it should be based on merit alone which in theory is true, however it's already been proven in this league and other arenas that people are rejected from positions due to their skin color or other bogus criterion.   Also what leads you to make a statement of finality about institutional racism no longer existing?  What proof do you have that it no longer exists?

 

And I say this with a reminder to you that  out of 32 NFL teams in 2014 only 2 have Black head coaches(Steelers and Bucs) and one has a Hispanic coach(Ron Rivera/Carolina Panthers).  Despite the majority of all the players being non-white.

 

The disparity exists all the way down to the coordinator positions as well.

 

If you don't want to call it institutional racism that's fine, but we have to agree the numbers are very disproportionate.  And it's this way even after a policy has been put in place,  I wonder what the numbers would look like if no one had even addressed the subject previously?

 

You forgot Marvin Lewis, Jim Caldwell.  In the past, we've had Hue Jackson, Dungy, Lovie Smith at Chicago to name a few.  In addition, disparity or not, there simply is not enough evidence that non-white coordinators or coaches candidates are passed over due solely to their "race."  

 

GM's want coaches who have the potential to win.  Jim Caldwell did well in Indy as HC and as OC in Baltimore; ideally we can assume that it was his merits that he was hired.  Now, Detroit may have considered him a "Rooney Rule" candidate or perhaps they did not (we'll never know).  The fact that this rule exists to put into question his candidacy as HC is insulting to Caldwell's achievements.

[GwinnettColt]

The NFL's record of minorities in positions of power and authority is without question completely embarrassing.....

 

Your list -- while certainly not the complete list -- offers no comfort or political cover.

 

Why is it embarrassing?  Did those coaches and coordinators (whoever they are) not deserve their positions or was it due to a policy put into place?  

 

Shall we fire all white coaches and hire non-white coaches based only on the fact that they are non-whites?   Or shall we base hiring on whether or not a GM and owner believe that a particular candidate can get wins, regardless of the candidate's ethnic background?

[JPFolks]

What do you propose be done so that the hiring process is fair?  You're saying it should be based on merit alone which in theory is true, however it's already been proven in this league and other arenas that people are rejected from positions due to their skin color or other bogus criterion.   Also what leads you to make a statement of finality about institutional racism no longer existing?  What proof do you have that it no longer exists?

 

And I say this with a reminder to you that  out of 32 NFL teams in 2014 only 2 have Black head coaches(Steelers and Bucs) and one has a Hispanic coach(Ron Rivera/Carolina Panthers).  Despite the majority of all the players being non-white.

 

The disparity exists all the way down to the coordinator positions as well.

 

If you don't want to call it institutional racism that's fine, but we have to agree the numbers are very disproportionate.  And it's this way even after a policy has been put in place,  I wonder what the numbers would look like if no one had even addressed the subject previously?

I don't care if they do or don't have a Rooney rule, but quotas would be a different thing.  After all, if we had quotas in all areas of the sport, a few more minorities would own teams and run them at all levels, but most of the current players would lose their jobs since if we're matching population % with how many of each need to be employed, then it no longer is about talent, but about race and thus most players would need to be white under a true quota system.  

 

The Rooney rule doesn't mean that a racist team will hire a black coach, only that they must talk to one (and in a few cases where a team really wanted a specific white coach, it seemed insulting to me to force them to find a black candidate who knew he was only filling a quota for them.  You can pass laws to fix racism but it is a folly because you can't legislate what is in someone's heart and head.  No amount of them will dent racism and may even make it worse.  But the Rooney rule does get some talented coordinators used to the process of interviewing and certainly would improve their chances at some point to get hired.  But is any race more or less deserving of a job based on the color of their skin?  It seems to be if the answer is yes, that is racism writ LARGE.  I prefer it to be like players... the best talent is on the field and it is far and away no aligned with the % of the race they belong to, but instead solely on their talent.  In the end, we need to encourage that sort of process where the best candidate wins.  The Rooney rule has its heart in the right place, but it is a step backwards if you want to live in a merit based world where race is irrelevant.  

 

As for Pep, I think his only problem is he doesn't have the personnel to make his system rock big time.  If we DID have a top notch line and running back, Pep's offense would blow away NFL marks and then some with Luck at the helm running it.  Even with a terrible line and no running backs that can get it done he's found success.  I sure would love to see him stay around long enough to put together at least an average line and average running back tandem and see how amazing the system could be.  But in criticism, I think sometimes he tries to force his system on players that simply can't handle it.  Like running 3 times and then trying a brilliantly designed but unsuccessful fake punt at Dallas.  Those three runs summed up why he takes so much heat from fans.  Sort of like a politician who has a great program in theory, but which doesn't work in the real world yet has the power to force it on us anyway to catastrophic ends.  That was the first series against Dallas in a nutshell.  

 

The real question is, does that mean we'll end up with Chud as OC? And if so, does anyone expect that to be an improvement? 

[GwinnettColt]

I don't like labels but to pretend they don't exist because you don't like them isn't the answer. It has nothing to do with one's ability to get or do the job with or without assistance. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world where opportunities are equal so policies are needed.

 

So you believe that due to one's "label," they won't be able to make it on their own so the government needs to make policies.  

[NewColtsFan]

Why is it embarrassing?  Did those coaches and coordinators (whoever they are) not deserve their positions or was it due to a policy put into place?  

 

Shall we fire all white coaches and hire non-white coaches based only on the fact that they are non-whites?   Or shall we base hiring on whether or not a GM and owner believe that a particular candidate can get wins, regardless of the candidate's ethnic background?

 

From my reading of your post,  you happen to believe that all the hiring of white head coaches and coordinators was simply a matter of them being the most qualified.    And the fact that candidates of color are having difficulty just getting interviewed,  to say nothing of actually get the job,  had nothing to do with race.

 

We disagree.

[GwinnettColt]

From my reading of your post,  you happen to believe that all the hiring of white head coaches and coordinators was simply a matter of them being the most qualified.    And the fact that candidates of color are having difficulty just getting interviewed,  to say nothing of actually get the job,  had nothing to do with race.

 

We disagree.

 

I would be in agreement with you if we were having this discussion 20 years ago.  However, it could very well be that the coach in place today is the one that the GM thought would win games.  I see no evidence otherwise.

[a06cc]

We need to keep Pep

[NewColtsFan]

I would be in agreement with you if we were having this discussion 20 years ago.  However, it could very well be that the coach in place today is the one that the GM thought would win games.  I see no evidence otherwise.

 

Of course the GM thought his hire would win games.

 

No GM in the history of sports thought his hired coach wouldn't win games.

 

But if you don't even interview a candidate of color, then that candidate has no chance of being hired.

 

And candidates simply weren't being interviewed.    And frankly even with the Rooney Rule,  the interviewing record isn't all that impressive.     And neither is the hiring...

[NFLfan]

Not knocking Pep but other than the Rooney Rule why would a team want to interview him for a HC gig?

I can't think of any other reason...just fulfilling league obligations.

Your comments are rather inane. As others have pointed out, Pep Hamilton is not the only black person or minority available to be interviewed. If the Bills are only interested in "fulfilling league obligations" and complying with the Rooney Rule, they can interview black coaches already on their coaching staff...like Pepper Johnson.

[YOUR GM]

I would be in agreement with you if we were having this discussion 20 years ago.  However, it could very well be that the coach in place today is the one that the GM thought would win games.  I see no evidence otherwise.

 

 

What is different about today than 20 years ago? Many of the same owners (or their heirs) are still in control of the same franchises, and are still giving "their guys" first dibs for any job openings they might have in the organization. Football, more than any other sport in american history, has an element of " the good ol' boys" to it. You still see it rampant even today. Head coaches and GMs often bring in "their guys" because they're most comfortable with that coordinator, position coach, etc, due to a certain level of familiarity, rather than searching for the most qualified individual. And if we're being completely honest,  "good ol boys" typically didn't look like Pep Hamilton or Mike Tomlin for the longest time. Those are just facts. You can ignore that component of business culture if it makes you feel more warm and fuzzy inside, but it still exists. 

 

Just because YOU don't see race -- which is insulting an insulting notion to begin with -- ( And If you'd like me to further elaborate why I feel that way, I'm more than willing to) doesn't mean that other people (particularly in a position of power) do not. Just because you haven't directly experienced the impact of institutionalized racism in your own life, doesn't mean it no longer exists. It's actually rather presumptuous on your end to think you can speak from a position of authority on this matter. These rules and mandates are here for a reason, and many of the same owners/their descendants who displayed discriminatory behavior towards minority candidates (inadvertent or not) in the past, are all still tied to those organizations at a significant capacity. As long as old money holds control of the business world, there is always a place for policies like the Rooney Rule. It's just a bi-product of the world we live in. If you don't like it, take it up with "the good ol' boys"  

[Nadine]

We have had to remove multiple political posts from this thread

It's not about the op anymore so I'm closing it