LaVon Brazill suspended for 1 year.

[Superman]

Good piece, countering all the "double standard" talk: http://coltsauthority.com/2014-articles/suspending-the-double-standard.html

[SLILLINGTON10]

Um, which branch?  I have had Soldiers under my command fail drug tests and much of the time it takes 6 to 8 months just to have their packets processed for discharge... No jail, no loss of rank. Just booted from the service with an "Other Than Honorable" discharge.  Maybe thats just the reserve side of it tho.

I am Air Force. maybe we are just crazier than the rest. specially with Spice, a bunch of airmen tried it on the flightline and they all went to jail reduced to Airman Basic (E-1), extra duty while they finished the paperwork for their discharge.

[SLILLINGTON10]

You will not be stripped of rank or do time for weed. You will get a general discharge and lose some benefits though.

I think that depends on the Commander, i only know one person who didn't get stripped of rank and the whole nine yds, that was only cause he was brand new in the military and they gave him a failure to adapt discharge. but like i said earlier i am in the air force and we are a little overkill in those situations.

[NagelHausForge]

I am Air Force. maybe we are just crazier than the rest. specially with Spice, a bunch of airmen tried it on the flightline and they all went to jail reduced to Airman Basic (E-1), extra duty while they finished the paperwork for their discharge.

 

I think there is a difference between popping hot on a pi$$ test and actually using it while on duty or getting caught with the substance... Reporting to duty high is different than reporting to duty with trace elements of something in your system.  But again, different branches have different regs so perhaps the USAF is more strict that the USAR.

[GoColts8818]

There is no double standard here.  Irsay wasn't busted under the NFL's substance abuse policy for starters.  Yes Irsay's problem is clearly related to substance abuse and he needs to be punished but that is going to be subject to the NFL's personal conduct policy which is a completely different policy and has a completely different set of rules and punishments than the NFL's substance abuse policy.  One has a very strict set of guidelines for punishment while the other is much more open ended.  You can't compare the punishments from each with each other because the rules for policy on how to hand out punishment are completely different. 

 

Also Brazill has violated the substance abuse policy now three times.  Irsay, while he has had problems with abusing pain killers in the past, is violating the personal conduct policy for the first time.  If you want to compare the punishment that is being rumored for Irsay for violating the personal conduct policy it's going to be much harsher than what Brazill got the first time he violated the substance abuse policy as it should be.  My guess is that if Irsay ever gets to the point where he violates the personal conduct policy three times his punishment is going to be much harsher than what Brazill got for violating the substance abuse policy for a third time. 

 

Also here's the other major part to this the Colts aren't handing out the punishment in either of these situations the league is.  So no the Colts don't have a double standard.  If anyone does (and no one does) it's the league because they are handing out the punishment.  The only thing the Colts might do is release Brazill.  That will be Grigson and Pagano's call not Irsay's because Irsay keeps his nose out of those kinds of calls.  Neither Grigson or Pagano has the power to release Irsay and since Brazill has been given a second and now third chance wouldn't it be a double standard for them to cut Irsay without giving him a second chance even if they had that kind of power?  

 

The people talking about this and trying to play up the double standard part of this are one of the following, trying to stir something up because there isn't much football news going on right now or flat out hate Jim Irsay. 

 

Does Brazill have a problem?  Without knowing the man I'd say the signs point to yes.  Part of the NFL's program for violating the substance abuse policy is to make sure the league provide helps for those players.  So I hope Brazill takes advantage of the help the league is going to require of him.  To this point though he isn't. 

[GoColts8818]

I agree he should be cut loose. It can be all too easy for people to talk back 'n' forth about an ancillary player like Brazill. Imagine if Luck did this to us? 

 

So ...yeah. So long as it's a rule, the rule should be obeyed. I disagree that the penalty should be so severe, but it is what it is. 

I think it's the fact he's violated this now three times means it needs to be so severe.  The whole idea of punishment is to discourage people from repeating the behavior.  Clearly the first two times didn't discourage Brazill enough so it needs to be harsher. 

 

I can see your point that a year for smoking weed seems harsh when you look at just that fact but I guess the fact that he can't put down weed to play football seems like such a bad decision to me that it trumps how hard the punishment is.  Almost like if you are going to make that bad of a choice (and even if he has a problem he still has the choice to get the help he needs) you deserve whatever punishment you get. 

[jvan1973]

I think that depends on the Commander, i only know one person who didn't get stripped of rank and the whole nine yds, that was only cause he was brand new in the military and they gave him a failure to adapt discharge. but like i said earlier i am in the air force and we are a little overkill in those situations.

yeah, I've heard the AF is no joke on discipline

[Dark_Indy]

Funny you mention Blair White stats and Whalen's stats but then just a generic Gonzo was junk. In two years (7 starts 29 games) he had 94 receptions for 1,240 yards and 7 TDs on a team with Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Addai out of the backfield. Far from junk. Yes, he had injury problems, that is what I said. Collie was better than ok, Collie was leading the league in receptions and yards and still getting better every game before his career was derailed with concussion(s)

They are not all the same receiver. Blair White is the worst of the bunch, Whalen is far better than him, on about the same level as Gonzo but not nearly as good as Collie was pre-concussion. Whalen is a guy that, if given the opportunity, will get you 35-45 receptions a year, 450-600 yards and 4-5 tds. You really can't ask for much more than that out of a 3rd or 4th WR. Brazill had as yet shown the ability to produce at that level.

Griff Whalen hasn't even scored 5 career touchdowns and you are saying he will score that in a year? Ok man.

Griff Whalen had his opportunity this year. He got beat by Darick Rogers and Lavon Brazill. Yet he is going to be the savior of the back half of the Colts depth Chart? Not a chance. I will be surprised if he is even on the team next year if Nicks works out.

Fixed your post by the way.

[colts41]

are: 2nd person singular present and 1st, 2nd, 3rd person plural present of be.

 

our: relating to or belonging to us : made or done by us

 

I think you wanted to use the second...

 

Brazil = spit for brains!

I was typing fast sorry.

[Superman]

Griff Whalen hasn't even scored 5 career touchdowns and you are saying he will score that in a year? Ok man.

Griff Whalen had his opportunity this year. He got beat by Darick Rogers and Lavon Brazill. Yet he is going to be the savior of the back half of the Colts depth Chart? Not a chance. I will be surprised if he is even on the team next year if Nicks works out.

Fixed your post by the way.

Why is it so hard to believe that a player will get better from Year 1 to Year 2?

[Coffeedrinker]

Griff Whalen hasn't even scored 5 career touchdowns and you are saying he will score that in a year? Ok man.

Griff Whalen had his opportunity this year. He got beat by Darick Rogers and Lavon Brazill. Yet he is going to be the savior of the back half of the Colts depth Chart? Not a chance. I will be surprised if he is even on the team next year if Nicks works out.

Fixed your post by the way.

Nope, he scored 2 in 9 career games.

 

Not sure how he got beat by Rogers and Brazill, considering he started more games than either of them, caught more passes and had more first downs.

 

And no, you didn't fix my posts, you are incapable of fixing my posts.  His season, when he was leading the league in receptions and yards was derailed by the concussion.  He career was derailed by multiple concussions.  I stated exactly what I meant.

[Coffeedrinker]

Why is it so hard to believe that a player will get better from Year 1 to Year 2?

I'm guessing it's because he watched film on him and the film tells him that he can't improve.

[Dark_Indy]

Nope, he scored 2 in 9 career games.

 

Not sure how he got beat by Rogers and Brazill, considering he started more games than either of them, caught more passes and had more first downs.

 

And no, you didn't fix my posts, you are incapable of fixing my posts.  His season, when he was leading the league in receptions and yards was derailed by the concussion.  He career was derailed by multiple concussions.  I stated exactly what I meant.

 

You realize that both Da'Rick Rogers and LaVon Brazill scored as many touchdowns as Griff Whalen has in his entire career in one game, right? Actually it was the same game. 

 

How did he get beat by Brazill and Rogers? 

 

Brazill was suspended for four games last season, which is the only reason Whalen even sniffed the active roster. When Brazill came back, Whalen got cut and sent to the practice squad. When Reggie went down with his ACL injury, The Colts basically called everyone to the party to fill Reggie's void. Rogers was the first one called on there, and put up a 100 yard game and two touchdowns against the Cincinnati Bengals.

 

I simply don't think that Griff Whalen is that good. I've spent some time watching his film and there is talent there. I won't deny that, but compared to the other young receivers on our roster I also believe that his ceiling is much, much lower.

 

 

Starting with the Playoff Game against the Pats, Whalen had 5 receptions for 67 yards, which is not bad for his position on the depth chart, but LaVon Brazill had 2 receptions for 73 yards and 2 touchdowns. Da'Rick Rogers was held without a catch.

 

Playoff game against the Chiefs, In a game where TY Hilton got 13 receptions for over 200 yards, there wasn't a whole lot to go around, but Brazill gets 4 receptions for 54 yards, Whalen gets 2 for 26. Rogers had 1 reception for 46 yards.

 

Week 17 against the Jaguars in Indy, Hilton absorbed most of the receptions again, getting 11 for 155 yards so the pool is low after that. Whalen was #2 on the team with 4 receptions for 32 Yards and a TD. Rogers 2 for 20, Brazill 1 for 11.

 

Week 16 against the Chiefs in what was Whalen's best career game on tape. He fought hard for first downs and caught 7 passes for 80 yards, leading the team- Rogers 4 for 42, Brazill without a catch

 

Week 15 against the Texans, Whalen was 4 for 45 and a TD, Rogers 2 for 23, Brazill without a catch

 

Week 14 against the Cincinnati Bengals, Rogers got 6 for 107 and 2 TDs, Brazill 3 for 53 with two TDs. Griff Whalen had less catches than guys named Jack Doyle and Darrius Heyward-Bey.

 

Whalen is a pedestrian wide out. He went undrafted because of his lack of talent, not because of off the field issues like Da'Rick Rogers. This is a guy who has NEVER had 5 touchdowns in a season, including college, and NEVER had a 1,000 yard season, including college. 

 

Whalen has about an 80% chance of making the final roster this year, which I have no problem with. He will also be the number five or six wideout on the roster, which means that getting 500 yards will be quite the achievement for him. If I'm not mistaken, this is also Whalen's last year eligible for the Practice Squad, so next year we won't be able to stash him for a rainy day like we did in 2013. 

 

Right now, we are sitting on

 

Hilton

Nicks 

Wayne (Slot)

Rogers/Whalen/Moncrief

 

Also, don't forget that we have Fleener and Allen at TE, both of which have proven that they are reliable receiving options as well.

 

Frankly, Griff Whalen is getting the short end of the stick here. He won't be around next year unless something drastic happens, there just isn't enough room for someone of his caliber on the roster for four to five years.

[Coffeedrinker]

You realize that both Da'Rick Rogers and LaVon Brazill scored as many touchdowns as Griff Whalen has in his entire career in one game, right? Actually it was the same game. 

 

How did he get beat by Brazill and Rogers? 

 

Brazill was suspended for four games last season, which is the only reason Whalen even sniffed the active roster. When Brazill came back, Whalen got cut and sent to the practice squad. When Reggie went down with his ACL injury, The Colts basically called everyone to the party to fill Reggie's void. Rogers was the first one called on there, and put up a 100 yard game and two touchdowns against the Cincinnati Bengals.

 

I simply don't think that Griff Whalen is that good. I've spent some time watching his film and there is talent there. I won't deny that, but compared to the other young receivers on our roster I also believe that his ceiling is much, much lower.

 

 

Starting with the Playoff Game against the Pats, Whalen had 5 receptions for 67 yards, which is not bad for his position on the depth chart, but LaVon Brazill had 2 receptions for 73 yards and 2 touchdowns. Da'Rick Rogers was held without a catch.

 

Playoff game against the Chiefs, In a game where TY Hilton got 13 receptions for over 200 yards, there wasn't a whole lot to go around, but Brazill gets 4 receptions for 54 yards, Whalen gets 2 for 26. Rogers had 1 reception for 46 yards.

 

Week 17 against the Jaguars in Indy, Hilton absorbed most of the receptions again, getting 11 for 155 yards so the pool is low after that. Whalen was #2 on the team with 4 receptions for 32 Yards and a TD. Rogers 2 for 20, Brazill 1 for 11.

 

Week 16 against the Chiefs in what was Whalen's best career game on tape. He fought hard for first downs and caught 7 passes for 80 yards, leading the team- Rogers 4 for 42, Brazill without a catch

 

Week 15 against the Texans, Whalen was 4 for 45 and a TD, Rogers 2 for 23, Brazill without a catch

 

Week 14 against the Cincinnati Bengals, Rogers got 6 for 107 and 2 TDs, Brazill 3 for 53 with two TDs. Griff Whalen had less catches than guys named Jack Doyle and Darrius Heyward-Bey.

 

Whalen is a pedestrian wide out. He went undrafted because of his lack of talent, not because of off the field issues like Da'Rick Rogers. This is a guy who has NEVER had 5 touchdowns in a season, including college, and NEVER had a 1,000 yard season, including college. 

 

Whalen has about an 80% chance of making the final roster this year, which I have no problem with. He will also be the number five or six wideout on the roster, which means that getting 500 yards will be quite the achievement for him. If I'm not mistaken, this is also Whalen's last year eligible for the Practice Squad, so next year we won't be able to stash him for a rainy day like we did in 2013. 

 

Right now, we are sitting on

 

Hilton

Nicks 

Wayne (Slot)

Rogers/Whalen/Moncrief

 

Also, don't forget that we have Fleener and Allen at TE, both of which have proven that they are reliable receiving options as well.

 

Frankly, Griff Whalen is getting the short end of the stick here. He won't be around next year unless something drastic happens, there just isn't enough room for someone of his caliber on the roster for four to five years.

thanks for posting the game summaries and making my point that Whalen was better than Brazill and Rogers last year.  As far as Whalen being cut when Brazill came back that is true, it was a surprising move.  But it was also made by the same people who thought that DHB would replace Wayne after he went down and then stuck with him for too long.  That move by itself makes one question the people who made that decision.

 

But no, neither Rogers nor Brazill beat out Whalen.  Whalen was brought back because DHB was playing poorly and Brazill was showing he was not capable of stepping up.  Rogers has some good tools but he's had one good game and one good catch.  That is it.

[Dark_Indy]

thanks for posting the game summaries and making my point that Whalen was better than Brazill and Rogers last year.  As far as Whalen being cut when Brazill came back that is true, it was a surprising move.  But it was also made by the same people who thought that DHB would replace Wayne after he went down and then stuck with him for too long.  That move by itself makes one question the people who made that decision.

 

But no, neither Rogers nor Brazill beat out Whalen.  Whalen was brought back because DHB was playing poorly and Brazill was showing he was not capable of stepping up.  Rogers has some good tools but he's had one good game and one good catch.  That is it.

 

Nice dude- Stats you probably didn't even read "Hurr you prove my point"

 

Yeah, Darrius Heyward Bey had more yards than Griff Whalen last year, and actually caught more passes too, he even had more first downs. He was actually out performed by a guy with stone hands. Ouch. Trent Richardson had more receiving yards than Griff Whalen did. Another little nugget from the statline- Stanley Havili had more YAC than Griff Whalen did last year.

 

I just realized the silliness of arguing this point, because I know and you know that Whalen won't make this team next year unless something drastic happens.

[Coffeedrinker]

Nice dude- Stats you probably didn't even read "Hurr you prove my point"

 

Yeah, Darrius Heyward Bey had more yards than Griff Whalen last year, and actually caught more passes too, he even had more first downs. He was actually out performed by a guy with stone hands. Ouch. Trent Richardson had more receiving yards than Griff Whalen did. Another little nugget from the statline- Stanley Havili had more YAC than Griff Whalen did last year.

 

I just realized the silliness of arguing this point, because I know and you know that Whalen won't make this team next year unless something drastic happens.

Actually I read through all your game summaries and they proved that Whalen was better and more reliable than Brazill and Rogers.  Too bad you don't know how to read what you type.

 

Your points now about DHB and Havili's YAC really has no bearing on the conversation.

 

And I don't know that Whalen won't make the team next year and neither do you.  I do find it funny that you have to keep changing your argument when the previous one fails.  One would think if you were correct, you would not have to keep changing the criteria you use.

[Thewholefnshow28]

This is not that big of a loss at all as there were questions if he would even make the team.

 

Wayne, Nicks, and TJ are locks.  We spent a 3rd on Moncrief so he is making the roster.  So right there we have four WRs on the roster and we will only keep five or six on the roster. Rogers showed a lot of upside so he is going to make it.  That left either Brazil or Whalen and Whalen showed enough last season that he can be a dependable guy.

[BOTT]

Blair White's Career Stats through two seasons, technically only played one though. He recorded no receptions his second year. (He was undrafted, just like Whalen)

Receptions

36

Receiving yards

355

Receiving average

9.9

Receiving TDs

5

 

 

Griff Whalen's Career stats through his first two years, again technically only one season as his rookie season he was hampered by a foot injury. 

Receptions

24

Receiving yards

259

Receiving average

10.8

Receiving TDs

2

 

Whalen played on a team with ONE WR threat when Wayne went down and still couldn't rack up stats. White played with Garcon, Wayne and Clark. These two guys are a lot more similar than you think.

 

Gonzalez was junk. He missed one pass and hurt his knee in what, two consecutive years? Its bad when Bob Sanders has a better health record than you do. 

 

Collie was ok, but he suffered too many concussions. 

 

At the end of the day, they're all the same receiver. Wes Welker light.

All white guys look alike

[Coffeedrinker]

This is not that big of a loss at all as there were questions if he would even make the team.

 

Wayne, Nicks, and TJ are locks.  We spent a 3rd on Moncrief so he is making the roster.  So right there we have four WRs on the roster and we will only keep five or six on the roster. Rogers showed a lot of upside so he is going to make it.  That left either Brazil or Whalen and Whalen showed enough last season that he can be a dependable guy.

Two questions:

 

1.  Who is TJ ;)

2.  I think Rogers as a chance to make it and I hope he's working hard in the offseason because he does have some intriguing tangibles but how exactly did he "show upside"?  His route running did not drastically improve, his ability to create separation was non existent, his timing with Luck didn't seem to improve over the last few games.  His first game with significant snaps was his best and once defenses learned they could not just totally ignore him he was pretty much a non factor in the rest of the games.

[Dark_Indy]

Actually I read through all your game summaries and they proved that Whalen was better and more reliable than Brazill and Rogers.  Too bad you don't know how to read what you type.

 

Your points now about DHB and Havili's YAC really has no bearing on the conversation.

 

And I don't know that Whalen won't make the team next year and neither do you.  I do find it funny that you have to keep changing your argument when the previous one fails.  One would think if you were correct, you would not have to keep changing the criteria you use.

 

 

My argument has never changed. It revolves on these points

 

1. Rogers and Brazill are better wide receivers than Whalen. I interpret the stats to be this way, because Rogers has displayed the ability to be a downfield threat, and raw talent that needs to be refined, a work in progress so to speak and Brazill has more experience in an NFL setting. If I had to rank the three based on performance, it would be Brazill, Rogers, Whalen. Whalen's best game on tape- he accumulated 80 yards. Not 80 and a TD, not a punt return, just 80 yards. Rogers had 107 and 2 TDs, Brazill has had a pair of multiple TD games in the NFL. 

2. Whalen has not had a history of finding the endzone or tearing up the field- he has never had a 100 yard game in the NFL, and never in his career scored five times in a season or had a 1000 yard season, including College. These are basic points on a wide receiver's resume for the NFL.

 

 

Whalen is only on this team because of Andrew Luck- and to the guys credit, he doesn't give up. He was a walk on in college, and he is a great underdog story. I get it, we all want the feel good story, and he's great depth on the chart, but there isn't anything on tape that makes me leap out and say Griff Whalen is anything more than a #6 Wideout. 

 

Why did I post those stats about DHB and Havili? Because as bad as DHB was, he still out produced Griff Whalen last year which is saying a lot. Slot receivers make their living on YAC- generally these guys are catching the ball close to the line of scrimmage and then using their smaller size to evade tacklers. Generally fullbacks are blockers and are brought on the field to occupy space and defenders. Marcell Reece aside, generally they don't catch a whole lot of passes, and Havili was able to outproduce a wide receiver at a position where catching passes isn't a focus. That is my point. 

 

Griff will make the roster this year, barring some UDFA setting the world on fire, but if I had to cut one, and it was Rogers or Whalen, Whalen would be out in a heartbeat. Just my opinion, no reason to start trying to insult someone because they don't agree with your opinion.

[Valpo2004]

My argument has never changed. It revolves on these points

 

1. Rogers and Brazill are better wide receivers than Whalen. I interpret the stats to be this way, because Rogers has displayed the ability to be a downfield threat, and raw talent that needs to be refined, a work in progress so to speak and Brazill has more experience in an NFL setting. If I had to rank the three based on performance, it would be Brazill, Rogers, Whalen. Whalen's best game on tape- he accumulated 80 yards. Not 80 and a TD, not a punt return, just 80 yards. Rogers had 107 and 2 TDs, Brazill has had a pair of multiple TD games in the NFL. 

2. Whalen has not had a history of finding the endzone or tearing up the field- he has never had a 100 yard game in the NFL, and never in his career scored five times in a season or had a 1000 yard season, including College. These are basic points on a wide receiver's resume for the NFL.

 

 

Whalen is only on this team because of Andrew Luck- and to the guys credit, he doesn't give up. He was a walk on in college, and he is a great underdog story. I get it, we all want the feel good story, and he's great depth on the chart, but there isn't anything on tape that makes me leap out and say Griff Whalen is anything more than a #6 Wideout. 

 

Why did I post those stats about DHB and Havili? Because as bad as DHB was, he still out produced Griff Whalen last year which is saying a lot. Slot receivers make their living on YAC- generally these guys are catching the ball close to the line of scrimmage and then using their smaller size to evade tacklers. Generally fullbacks are blockers and are brought on the field to occupy space and defenders. Marcell Reece aside, generally they don't catch a whole lot of passes, and Havili was able to outproduce a wide receiver at a position where catching passes isn't a focus. That is my point. 

 

Griff will make the roster this year, barring some UDFA setting the world on fire, but if I had to cut one, and it was Rogers or Whalen, Whalen would be out in a heartbeat. Just my opinion, no reason to start trying to insult someone because they don't agree with your opinion.

 

Whalen has played in significantly less games then Brazil.  Also Brazil has never really tore it up on the field with any consistent basis.  He always has a couple of plays per year that make you think he could be special but most of the time he disappears.  

[Dark_Indy]

Two questions:

 

1.  Who is TJ ;)

2.  I think Rogers as a chance to make it and I hope he's working hard in the offseason because he does have some intriguing tangibles but how exactly did he "show upside"?  His route running did not drastically improve, his ability to create separation was non existent, his timing with Luck didn't seem to improve over the last few games.  His first game with significant snaps was his best and once defenses learned they could not just totally ignore him he was pretty much a non factor in the rest of the games.

 

Da'Rick has the potential to be a physical receiver, but he tends to play with Roy Hibbert syndrome. He's got the ability to punish defenders for trying to press him, and he has the ability to go up and get passes that other receivers can't. As well as tiring out opponent defensive backs. He has slightly above average jumping ability. He does tend to "lope" around out on the field, not running as fast as he could and sometimes he looks plain awkward while in his routes. He also needs to start playing above his head more, like that catch against Kansas City instead of catching at the chest. He does have a good future if things fall into place for him and his route running gets better. Spend a lot of time with Reggie, and watch a lot of film on Calvin Johnson because Calvin has exceptional route running skills for such a tall receiver. Rogers is a solid #4 option- talent is there, skill is there, obviously he still has to develop. For the circumstances that he found himself in, Rogers had a solid rookie year- but he has to improve on his fundamentals.

[Dark_Indy]

Whalen has played in significantly less games then Brazil.  Also Brazil has never really tore it up on the field with any consistent basis.  He always has a couple of plays per year that make you think he could be special but most of the time he disappears.  

 

 

Correct, Whalen has played less than Brazill. So we are in truth comparing

 

Whalen- Consistent mediocre performances. We can rely on Whalen for about 35-40 yards a game on 3-4 catches

versus

Brazill- Inconsistent performances muddling a few superb performances with non-factor games.

 

I guess the theoretical argument (Considering that Brazill is suspended and will probably be cut) would then be:

 

Is it easier to teach skill to get Whalen to improve his production, or is it easier to teach consistency to get Brazill to play like a superstar every time his number is called?

[Superman]

Da'Rick has the potential to be a physical receiver, but he tends to play with Roy Hibbert syndrome. He's got the ability to punish defenders for trying to press him, and he has the ability to go up and get passes that other receivers can't. As well as tiring out opponent defensive backs. He has slightly above average jumping ability. He does tend to "lope" around out on the field, not running as fast as he could and sometimes he looks plain awkward while in his routes. He also needs to start playing above his head more, like that catch against Kansas City instead of catching at the chest. He does have a good future if things fall into place for him and his route running gets better. Spend a lot of time with Reggie, and watch a lot of film on Calvin Johnson because Calvin has exceptional route running skills for such a tall receiver. Rogers is a solid #4 option- talent is there, skill is there, obviously he still has to develop. For the circumstances that he found himself in, Rogers had a solid rookie year- but he has to improve on his fundamentals.

 

How could you diagnose a first year receiver who didn't even play in 25% of the team's snaps last year? Especially when your diagnosis suggests inconsistency and inability to dominate physically inferior players...

 

Rogers has a lot to learn and a lot to prove, I just don't understand the comparison to Hibbert.

[Dark_Indy]

How could you diagnose a first year receiver who didn't even play in 25% of the team's snaps last year? Especially when your diagnosis suggests inconsistency and inability to dominate physically inferior players...

 

Rogers has a lot to learn and a lot to prove, I just don't understand the comparison to Hibbert.

 

Roy Hibbert- Big guy, has the potential to block 10 shots and get 10 rebounds a game, but he doesn't quite play to his potential and I see that with Da'rick Rogers too- he has the potential to have production like he did in the Cincinnati game, but he became a nonfactor later. In College he tended to quit on plays if he wasn't the focus- stop running his route, etc. 

 

Most of this diagnosis comes from College play because there is a lack of data on his play in the NFL, and I hope that come this year this diagnosis is completely wrong.

[Superman]

Roy Hibbert- Big guy, has the potential to block 10 shots and get 10 rebounds a game, but he doesn't quite play to his potential and I see that with Da'rick Rogers too- he has the potential to have production like he did in the Cincinnati game, but he became a nonfactor later. In College he tended to quit on plays if he wasn't the focus- stop running his route, etc. 

 

Most of this diagnosis comes from College play because there is a lack of data on his play in the NFL, and I hope that come this year this diagnosis is completely wrong.

 

Just saying, he didn't play very much last year. The flashes we got from him were promising, but of course he has a lot of work to do. We'll see what happens in camp.

[Dark_Indy]

Just saying, he didn't play very much last year. The flashes we got from him were promising, but of course he has a lot of work to do. We'll see what happens in camp.

 

 

I'm not following your criticism- you and I are agreeing on the same subject.

[Superman]

I'm not following your criticism- you and I are agreeing on the same subject.

 

Not a criticism, we do agree.

 

I just didn't understand the Roy Hibbert comparison for a first year player who only got 200 snaps last year. Especially when Rogers actually made some plays last year, as a peripheral player. The Pacers have tried everything to help Hibbert perform consistently. We barely threw Rogers out there, just to see what might happen. I didn't think it was a good comparison.

[Coffeedrinker]

My argument has never changed. It revolves on these points

 

1. Rogers and Brazill are better wide receivers than Whalen. I interpret the stats to be this way, because Rogers has displayed the ability to be a downfield threat, and raw talent that needs to be refined, a work in progress so to speak and Brazill has more experience in an NFL setting. If I had to rank the three based on performance, it would be Brazill, Rogers, Whalen. Whalen's best game on tape- he accumulated 80 yards. Not 80 and a TD, not a punt return, just 80 yards. Rogers had 107 and 2 TDs, Brazill has had a pair of multiple TD games in the NFL. 

2. Whalen has not had a history of finding the endzone or tearing up the field- he has never had a 100 yard game in the NFL, and never in his career scored five times in a season or had a 1000 yard season, including College. These are basic points on a wide receiver's resume for the NFL.

 

 

Whalen is only on this team because of Andrew Luck- and to the guys credit, he doesn't give up. He was a walk on in college, and he is a great underdog story. I get it, we all want the feel good story, and he's great depth on the chart, but there isn't anything on tape that makes me leap out and say Griff Whalen is anything more than a #6 Wideout. 

 

Why did I post those stats about DHB and Havili? Because as bad as DHB was, he still out produced Griff Whalen last year which is saying a lot. Slot receivers make their living on YAC- generally these guys are catching the ball close to the line of scrimmage and then using their smaller size to evade tacklers. Generally fullbacks are blockers and are brought on the field to occupy space and defenders. Marcell Reece aside, generally they don't catch a whole lot of passes, and Havili was able to outproduce a wide receiver at a position where catching passes isn't a focus. That is my point. 

 

Griff will make the roster this year, barring some UDFA setting the world on fire, but if I had to cut one, and it was Rogers or Whalen, Whalen would be out in a heartbeat. Just my opinion, no reason to start trying to insult someone because they don't agree with your opinion.

1.  In your opinion they may be better WRs.  The facts would indicate otherwise.

 

2.  So, even without the college resume teams look for, he out produced Rogers and Brazill.  College resume means very little when it comes to NFL production.

 

3. (You stopped numbering your paragraphs but I assume you can figure it out).  That is pretty much complete hogwash.  He's earned his spot of the team for two years.  And when his number was called he performed.  Not much more you can ask of a player.  As another example, Terrell Davis never rushed for 850 yards or scored more than 6 rushing tds in a season in college.  Yet he proved to be a pretty good NFL running back.

 

4.  No matter how you try to justify it they are meaningless to the conversation.  But I'll play your game for a minute.  The same things about Havilli and DHB apply to Rogers and Brazill as well.  Lastly, a slot receiver does not catch most of his passes near the LOS.

 

5.  Funny, I have not insulted you at all but yet because I don't agree with your opinion and provide facts and logic that support my opinion you perceive it as insulting you.  That is very telling about the type of person you are.

 

You can respond if you want but I'm pretty much done with this conversation.

[Valpo2004]

Correct, Whalen has played less than Brazill. So we are in truth comparing

 

Whalen- Consistent mediocre performances. We can rely on Whalen for about 35-40 yards a game on 3-4 catches

versus

Brazill- Inconsistent performances muddling a few superb performances with non-factor games.

 

I guess the theoretical argument (Considering that Brazill is suspended and will probably be cut) would then be:

 

Is it easier to teach skill to get Whalen to improve his production, or is it easier to teach consistency to get Brazill to play like a superstar every time his number is called?

 

I wouldn't even call Brazil's performances superb.  He just always had 1 or 2 plays in a year that made him look special.  But outside of those he didn't look all that great.

 

The main 2 plays I'm thinking of are the 2nd to last TD catch vs the Lions in 2012 and catching a slant against the Bengals and breaking 3 tackles to get to the endzone in 2013.  

 

His big plays however where exceptions to the rule.  

 

In limited time however Whalen got more yards and more catches.  Whalen isn't likely to break 100 yards many times (not that Brazil did either, which makes your argument about Whalen never having a 100 yard game kinda silly)  But he's good for getting a big first down. 

As far as teaching skill sets. . . I don't know how much you can teach but the way I look at is this.  If a guy has been with you for 2 years and 2 training camps and hasn't broken out yet. . . he's just not likely to break out.  

 

Brazil hasn't crossed 200 yards in a season yet and he's had 2 seasons of playing time to do so.  Whalen has only played part of last season and got 259 yards.  And comparing yards is unfair to Whalen because he's a possession receiver and not a home run hitter.  A guy who gets you 3 first downs on 3 different 3rd and 10's is just as important if not more important then a guy who takes one catch 60 yards to the house.  But he'd still only have half the yards.  

 

Based on opportunity and production I have to say that Whalen is the better receiver now and has more potential then Brazil.  Those big special plays Brazil used to do may be missed but they where really rather rare, 1 or 2 plays a season.  The rest of the time he really wasn't doing all that much.  

[SLILLINGTON10]

yeah, I've heard the AF is no joke on discipline

Very true for the most part, unless you just have a commander who either loves you or just doesn't care. If you do have a CC like, chances are he won't be your commander for long.

[SLILLINGTON10]

I think there is a difference between popping hot on a pi$$ test and actually using it while on duty or getting caught with the substance... Reporting to duty high is different than reporting to duty with trace elements of something in your system.  But again, different branches have different regs so perhaps the USAF is more strict that the USAR.

that is true. i also had a buddy who was driving thru that gate and randomly searched. Security Forces found an empty bag of spice in his truck (he claimed is civilian girl friend left it there) and he was stripped of rank and kicked out (no jail time). That was a couple years ago... the Air Force has gotten worse and will demote you and kick you out any chance they get with all the downsizing we are doing. Just a year ago a guy i used to work with missed curfew in Korea was given an A15 and striped of a stripe, he was past the higher tenure for his new lower rank and was kicked out. crazy times in the Air Force.

[Dark_Indy]

<Snip>

 

Regardless of what you think of me or my opinion, I have enjoyed debating Griff Whalen with you. I think we're all ready for the season to start. Thanks for the conversation.

[dudeski]

Griff Whalen......fan favorite

Why? I have my theories.

Blair white all over again

[DougDew]

As I mentioned above, in many states, the penalty for minor possession is on-par with the penalty for speeding (5-10MPH over). So the real discussion may not be the illegality of marijuana. Rather, the discussion should be more in the direction of what is an appropriate and proportional response from the league toward minor marijuana offences. 

Some of the comments about the NFL's policy refer to personal political opinions of whether or not weed is or should be legal. 

 

I would hope that the NFL sees an inconsistency with marketing their players as being top conditioned athletes and some athletes destroying that effort by willfully injesting smoke into their lungs for the sole purpose of getting stoned.

 

Frankly, the NFL's policy on weed, or Marlboro's for that matter, isn't harsh enough.

[DougDew]

There's nothing political about this thread.

 

Yes there is.  When people respond about Brazill's suspension being fair or unfair, it comes down to whether or not they agree with the NFL's policy, which is often expressed as whether or not smoking weed should be legal, whether or not it is "minor", or that possessing or smoking it is "no big deal".

 

Not every response is laced with that bent, but many are....and it happens with the Josh Gordon threads too.

[jvan1973]

Yes there is. When people respond about Brazill's suspension being fair or unfair, it comes down to whether or not they agree with the NFL's policy, which is often expressed as whether or not smoking weed should be legal, whether or not it is "minor", or that possessing or smoking it is "no big deal".

Not every response is laced with that bent, but many are....and it happens with the Josh Gordon threads too.

who cares?

[Superman]

Yes there is.  When people respond about Brazill's suspension being fair or unfair, it comes down to whether or not they agree with the NFL's policy, which is often expressed as whether or not smoking weed should be legal, whether or not it is "minor", or that possessing or smoking it is "no big deal".

 

Not every response is laced with that bent, but many are....and it happens with the Josh Gordon threads too.

 

Talking about the law doesn't equal talking about politics. Neither does talking about the NFL's rules and policies.

 

The type of discussion taking place in this thread is monitored closely by the mods, but is generally acceptable here. If you're not comfortable with it, that's okay, you can avoid it.

[DougDew]

Talking about the law doesn't equal talking about politics. Neither does talking about the NFL's rules and policies.

 

The type of discussion taking place in this thread is monitored closely by the mods, but is generally acceptable here. If you're not comfortable with it, that's okay, you can avoid it.

Except when comments express a disgust with the law or policy, then the writer is being political.  

 

My original comment stands...people manage to express their disgust with the illegality of pot whenever one of these threads pop up.  Like its a social travesty that guys like Brazil or Gordon get disciplined in the first place.  That was my point.

[NewColtsFan]

10 days and more than 300 posts later,  I'd pay good money to shut this thread down!!  

 

50, maybe even 75 cents!   BAM!!    There it is!

 

But, hey, maybe it's me....   I didn't care for the World Cup either......