Caldwell/coaching (Merge)

[-JJ-]

Pats were not built around Brady the way the Colts are built around Manning. They were built around a very good o-line and defense at the time

Steelers are also not built around Big Ben the way the Colts are built around Manning. The Steelers aren't even a passing team. They want to run the ball and throw the ball when they can.

Not the best two examples you could come up with. How would the Saints, Chargers, or Packers (all teams that are built around their QB like the Colts are) do if they lost their QB? My guess is that they would struggle like the Colts are. Ther is a reason we pay Peyton one fifth of the salary cap we expect him to cover up some holes. You can't just lose that and expect the team to over come it. Sorry you can't. If we could we wouldn't be paying Peyton that much money.

Clearly they are holes beyond Peyton but I am also hearing a lot of people say that this team would probably be 5-1 with Manning right now. You know what that tells me? Even with the other holes the biggest problem is we don't have Peyton Manning.

Can you or anyone explain this concept of the colts built around Manning.

On one side of the football you have the offense.

1.The oline is to run block and pass block. Something every team strives to have. Or do the colts have special linemen just for manning?

2. Recievers are there to catch the ball. Do the colts only procure special recievers that only Manning can throw too?

3.The RB is there to run the ball and help with pass blocking. Is there a special RB required for Manning?

I know the other 31 teams try to get the best line,recievers, and RB they can within the confines of the cap and hopefully good drafting,FAs,trades..

Or are you saying just procure an average team and Manning will win. But that makes no sense either. While Manning's cap has always been high its never been prohibitive to not have a good team.

If you say all the money goes to offense, which wasn't as lopside over the years as people think,then any QB should do well with that great offense..or how is it taylored that only Manning can run it?

[BIGugly]

I find it interesting to see how some here think a HC should act/react on the sidelines of a game to qualify them as a good/great HC. It would be nice if their decision was based off something more then how a coach acts, but I guess that is what we are stuck with.

Well, let's see. He was outcoached in the Super Bowl. He lost a playoff game to the Jets with a horrible time out call. Can't even count the losses we have sustained after holding good leads. He pulled his starters against the Jets when that moment in the history (14-0) may never be seen again. Since that time, his record with the Colts is 12-16. Ever been to one of his summer camps? Nobody is learning anything, nobody is getting into football shape, it's all PR. His college recored is 23-63, now that qualifies you for a head coaching job in the NFL.

So, that covers head to head coaching in the NFL, time management in game situations, awareness of of where we are in history, conditioning, training, and past record. What else? Oh, yeah, looks like a deer.............

[dn4192]

Well, let's see. He was outcoached in the Super Bowl. He lost a playoff game to the Jets with a horrible time out call. Can't even count the losses we have sustained after holding good leads. He pulled his starters against the Jets when that moment in the history (14-0) may never be seen again. Since that time, his record with the Colts is 12-16. Ever been to one of his summer camps? Nobody is learning anything, nobody is getting into football shape, it's all PR. His college recored is 23-63, now that qualifies you for a head coaching job in the NFL.

So, that covers head to head coaching in the NFL, time management in game situations, awareness of of where we are in history, conditioning, training, and past record. What else? Oh, yeah, looks like a deer.............

No the Colts were out played. The Saints played harder and wanted it more and the Colts players made to many mistakes. IN the Jets game yes it was a stupid time out call, but I'm sorry the lousy tackling on the final KO is what cost us that game and sorry I don't think Caldwell was on the field and missed any tackles. Enough with pulling the players in the 14-0 season, my god that horse is so beaten up it's not funny and it's NOT an issue with anyone but fans.

As for the camps, you are making assumptions with no actual proof to back it up. So being a success in college as a head coach means you are NFL material? Really how many college head coaches who were good went on to NFL success. Also he was head coach of a college program that is not, never has been a football powerhouse.

Like I have said, Caldwell is not a great head coach, but he has gotten his team to the playoffs in his first two seasons, I don't see a player revolt and if not for the number of injuries to key personal this year would again have the Colts in the playoff hunt. This Caldwell bashing is all based on some fans "anger" over the perfect season and nothing more.

[FireJimCaldwell]

The onside kick was as much poor coaching as it was poor execution.

Sean Payton isn't going to try something like that just to try it. He saw a weakness in our return game and calculated the risk/reward and thought it was worth taking the gamble. Maybe he felt the need to do that like Fisher has done previously. Either way it took guts to make the call and he's not going to do so just to be gutsy. To much was at stake just to try to show the world you've got a pair.

The way the front line would retreat without making sure the ball passed them first was the first key. They continue to do it. We could easily see the same thing happen on any Sunday that we have played. That is on the staff, on the STC, and on the HC.

The Caldwell bashing is more on his mistakes and failure to learn from them because I'm still certain the 14-0 was more Polian than it was Caldwell. Dungy didn't rest the starters when faced with a perfect season. We played San Diego straight up and lost. We threw away the Jets game, whether that's a bomo of JC/BP/JI, or one of them more than the other two, it happened, and it is wrong in the eyes of many fans, players, and people throughout the NFL. So yeah it's tainted his career to a point but he obviously was comfortable about it.

Some didn't like the hire to start with which dates back long before Manning missed his 2nd snap due to injury.

[LUVTHESHOE]

No the Colts were out played. The Saints played harder and wanted it more and the Colts players made to many mistakes. IN the Jets game yes it was a stupid time out call, but I'm sorry the lousy tackling on the final KO is what cost us that game and sorry I don't think Caldwell was on the field and missed any tackles. Enough with pulling the players in the 14-0 season, my god that horse is so beaten up it's not funny and it's NOT an issue with anyone but fans.

As for the camps, you are making assumptions with no actual proof to back it up. So being a success in college as a head coach means you are NFL material? Really how many college head coaches who were good went on to NFL success. Also he was head coach of a college program that is not, never has been a football powerhouse.

Like I have said, Caldwell is not a great head coach, but he has gotten his team to the playoffs in his first two seasons, I don't see a player revolt and if not for the number of injuries to key personal this year would again have the Colts in the playoff hunt. This Caldwell bashing is all based on some fans "anger" over the perfect season and nothing more.

I could have gotten this team to the playoffs in the last two years. Our division has been down. How do you know

how the players feel about him. Please link to one quote from this season where a player has come out and had his back.

I am not saying he has lost the locker room but you can't say for sure he has'nt. I do recall more than one player being

upset over Coliins coming in, and remember that was Caldwells call. Or so he says.

[jskinnz]

The onside kick was as much poor coaching as it was poor execution.

Sean Payton isn't going to try something like that just to try it. He saw a weakness in our return game and calculated the risk/reward and thought it was worth taking the gamble. Maybe he felt the need to do that like Fisher has done previously. Either way it took guts to make the call and he's not going to do so just to be gutsy. To much was at stake just to try to show the world you've got a pair.

The way the front line would retreat without making sure the ball passed them first was the first key. They continue to do it. We could easily see the same thing happen on any Sunday that we have played. That is on the staff, on the STC, and on the HC.

The Caldwell bashing is more on his mistakes and failure to learn from them because I'm still certain the 14-0 was more Polian than it was Caldwell. Dungy didn't rest the starters when faced with a perfect season. We played San Diego straight up and lost. We threw away the Jets game, whether that's a bomo of JC/BP/JI, or one of them more than the other two, it happened, and it is wrong in the eyes of many fans, players, and people throughout the NFL. So yeah it's tainted his career to a point but he obviously was comfortable about it.

Some didn't like the hire to start with which dates back long before Manning missed his 2nd snap due to injury.

Let's agree that Payton took a risk as calculated and measured as it was - but a big risk nonetheless. But where I cannot agree is that it is on coaching. The ball hit Baskett in the hands. He simply did not make the play. I guess you can say he was fooled but no more than any player on any team would have been by a team doing something that had never been done in that situation, in that big of a game. But he was not fooled to the extent that he took himself out of the play. If that had happened, blame the coaches all you want. But he was right there and simply failed at execution. That is on Baskett. And if it is true that he had the ball and gave it up after he heard the ref, even more so on the *.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Let's agree that Payton took a risk as calculated and measured as it was - but a big risk nonetheless. But where I cannot agree is that it is on coaching. The ball hit Baskett in the hands. He simply did not make the play. I guess you can say he was fooled but no more than any player on any team would have been by a team doing something that had never been done in that situation, in that big of a game. But he was not fooled to the extent that he took himself out of the play. If that had happened, blame the coaches all you want. But he was right there and simply failed at execution. That is on Baskett. And if it is true that he had the ball and gave it up after he heard the ref, even more so on the *.

Yes Baskett attempted to recover from his initial mistake of retreating first. If he would have been in proper position he might have been able to field the ball cleanly. Just like a WR can catch a poorly thrown ball, or can catch a ball when he himself is out of position, he was able to get his hands on it, but not able to field it cleanly. I still think the poor technique was what gave Payton the idea to start with. That was something he and his staff scouted. He might have seen it himself, and one of the other coaches, staff members might have said " hey coach, I have an idea look at this on the film". Either way he wasn't doing it just to be doing it. You might open with a bomb just to be doing it, but you don't try something that drastic without seeing something that you can take advantage of. Something our own staff should have been able to pick up on. So even with poor exceution by Baskett, I feel it still falls back to coaching.

[dn4192]

I could have gotten this team to the playoffs in the last two years. Our division has been down. How do you know

how the players feel about him. Please link to one quote from this season where a player has come out and had his back.

I am not saying he has lost the locker room but you can't say for sure he has'nt. I do recall more than one player being

upset over Coliins coming in, and remember that was Caldwells call. Or so he says.

Really? YOU could have gotten the Colts to the playoffs the last two seasons. Now that is funny.

Collins was brought in because we had no other real option because Painter had never shown anything and if you think it was Caldwells call to bring him in then you have no idea how a pro sports team is put together. Was he consulted, sure but Polian determines who is added and subtracted from this roster as does all good GM's. Why do you think coaches like Jimmy Johnson, Bill Cower, BB and others want full control, because when they don't, their roster is determined by the GM with their imput, but the GM makes the final call.

[BIGugly]

No the Colts were out played. The Saints played harder and wanted it more and the Colts players made to many mistakes. IN the Jets game yes it was a stupid time out call, but I'm sorry the lousy tackling on the final KO is what cost us that game and sorry I don't think Caldwell was on the field and missed any tackles. Enough with pulling the players in the 14-0 season, my god that horse is so beaten up it's not funny and it's NOT an issue with anyone but fans.

As for the camps, you are making assumptions with no actual proof to back it up. So being a success in college as a head coach means you are NFL material? Really how many college head coaches who were good went on to NFL success. Also he was head coach of a college program that is not, never has been a football powerhouse.

Like I have said, Caldwell is not a great head coach, but he has gotten his team to the playoffs in his first two seasons, I don't see a player revolt and if not for the number of injuries to key personal this year would again have the Colts in the playoff hunt. This Caldwell bashing is all based on some fans "anger" over the perfect season and nothing more.

And exactly why were the Colts outplayed. not properly prepared? Prolly...

Not many winning college coaches go on to be successful NFL coaches. Losing college coaches do even worse. imagine that

Yes, 14-0 is still a serious issue with THE FANS. who else would it be an issue with?

Peyton got them into the playoffs, make no mistake. Caldwell was along for the ride.

Been going to pro camps for the Colts a heck of a lot longer than Calwell. Know what I see.

Just sayin'

[dn4192]

And exactly why were the Colts outplayed. not properly prepared? Prolly...

Not many winning college coaches go on to be successful NFL coaches. Losing college coaches do even worse. imagine that

Yes, 14-0 is still a serious issue with THE FANS. who else would it be an issue with?

Peyton got them into the playoffs, make no mistake. Caldwell was along for the ride.

Been going to pro camps for the Colts a heck of a lot longer than Calwell. Know what I see.

Just sayin'

Coaching was an issue, no question. but are talent level was not as good as the Saints and the Saints players played better. Fans need to get over the whole 14-0 issue, and move on, it's not a big deal and those who are still stuck on it really need to move on. Wow you have been to camp...I had no idea that going and sitting in the stands for at max 2 weeks a year gives you the insight to have the slightest clue as to the management of a pro sports team.

It is almost laughable at what "Joe" fan thinks he knows compared to what those who are actually doing the job knows.

[BIGugly]

Coaching was an issue, no question. but are talent level was not as good as the Saints and the Saints players played better. Fans need to get over the whole 14-0 issue, and move on, it's not a big deal and those who are still stuck on it really need to move on. Wow you have been to camp...I had no idea that going and sitting in the stands for at max 2 weeks a year gives you the insight to have the slightest clue as to the management of a pro sports team.

It is almost laughable at what "Joe" fan thinks he knows compared to what those who are actually doing the job knows.

Just know what I see. And what I see is not good.

And that's "Mr Joe" fan to you.

Edited October 21, 2011 by BIGugly

[FireJimCaldwell]

Coaching was an issue, no question. but are talent level was not as good as the Saints and the Saints players played better. Fans need to get over the whole 14-0 issue, and move on, it's not a big deal and those who are still stuck on it really need to move on. Wow you have been to camp...I had no idea that going and sitting in the stands for at max 2 weeks a year gives you the insight to have the slightest clue as to the management of a pro sports team.

It is almost laughable at what "Joe" fan thinks he knows compared to what those who are actually doing the job knows.

Does anyone else find it odd for fanid#dn4192 continues to belittle fanid#bigugly and others for sharing an honest opinion and acting as if he is in the know or "doing the job" or should have much more weight to his own opinion. You keep talking about requirements and resumes, yet when all you are is just a member of the Colts forum just like every other person posting here. The holier than thou or the in the know act is somewhat off-putting. That is what is laughable.

[dn4192]

Does anyone else find it odd for fanid#dn4192 continues to belittle fanid#bigugly and others for sharing an honest opinion and acting as if he is in the know or "doing the job" or should have much more weight to his own opinion. You keep talking about requirements and resumes, yet when all you are is just a member of the Colts forum just like every other person posting here. The holier than thou or the in the know act is somewhat off-putting. That is what is laughable.

Huh? I would just like to see some justification for this off handed views. There are some here who really believe that via watching pro football they have a full grasp of what is all involved and that they know better then those who are actually running the show. I mean really..."I have been to more camps then Caldwell" is a basis for knowing that the Colts Head coach is no good and doesn't know what he is doing? Having an opinion is fine, but for anyone here to believe they have more/better knowledge of the NFL than those in it is down right laughable. I don't know if Caldwell is a good coach or not, what I do know is that Bill Polian and Jim Irsay have a proven track record and I trust their judgement as they have earned it. If they feel Caldwell is a good coach then that should be the end of it.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Huh? I would just like to see some justification for this off handed views. There are some here who really believe that via watching pro football they have a full grasp of what is all involved and that they know better then those who are actually running the show. I mean really..."I have been to more camps then Caldwell" is a basis for knowing that the Colts Head coach is no good and doesn't know what he is doing? Having an opinion is fine, but for anyone here to believe they have more/better knowledge of the NFL than those in it is down right laughable. I don't know if Caldwell is a good coach or not, what I do know is that Bill Polian and Jim Irsay have a proven track record and I trust their judgement as they have earned it. If they feel Caldwell is a good coach then that should be the end of it.

Just calling them like I see them.

Re-read what you have written to a couple of people and then try to visualize it being said to you. It comes off as that you are "in the know" and that your opinion should be valued and that Joe fan should have their opinion dismissed. Some of the comments are here are extreme, but not as extreme as asking for anyone's credentials.

[dn4192]

Just calling them like I see them.

Re-read what you have written to a couple of people and then try to visualize it being said to you. It comes off as that you are "in the know" and that your opinion should be valued and that Joe fan should have their opinion dismissed. Some of the comments are here are extreme, but not as extreme as asking for anyone's credentials.

My opinion is I don't know and that I trust the opinion of those who "actually" are in that line of work over someone who sits on his couch on sunday and watches the game from home, the local eatery or even in the stadium. There are people here who actually believe they know more by just sitting in the seat and watching over those in the position. That is absurd to even consider. It's one thing to say I don't like the coach and want him gone, it's another to "claim" to know more then said coach or GM or such when you have never even worked in that field.

[BIGugly]

Just know what I see. And what I see is not good.

And that's "Mr Joe" fan to you.

Well, let me rephrase it especially for you. Have been to camps lead by every head coach of the Colts since 1984. The camps under Caldwell are not as well organized, the players do not work as hard, there are fewer players involved in the drills, there are more players standing around doing nothing. Painter was taking no more reps than the past few years, even though there was the possibility that Manning might not start the first few games. We are now 0-6. Now you may draw your own conclusions.

Edited October 21, 2011 by BIGugly

[dn4192]

Well, let me rephrase it especially for you. Have been to camps lead by every head coach of the Colts since 1984. The camps under Caldwell are not as well organized, the players do not work as hard, there are fewer players involved in the drills, there are more players standing around doing nothing. Now you may draw your own conclusions.

And yet when a healthy team they win, heck even when they were lacking key role players last year they still won. You also now know the new labor agreement restricts the amount of contact they can have in camp, in practice an such.

[BIGugly]

And yet when a healthy team they win, heck even when they were lacking key role players last year they still won. You also now know the new labor agreement restricts the amount of contact they can have in camp, in practice an such.

Harbaugh had his team ready. Kubiak had his team ready. Mike Munchak had his team ready. Hugh Jackson had his team ready. All first year coaches except Kubiak. All with winning records. All playing good football.

You may draw your own conclusions. And I don't need to know what they are.

Edited October 21, 2011 by BIGugly

[BIGugly]

And yet when a healthy team they win, heck even when they were lacking key role players last year they still won. You also now know the new labor agreement restricts the amount of contact they can have in camp, in practice an such.

Yes, but not the number of reps nor the number that can participate, nor the number of drills. Just contact. Even without pads, a lot can be done that wasn;t.

[dn4192]

Yes, but not the number of reps nor the number that can participate, nor the number of drills. Just contact. Even without pads, a lot can be done that wasn;t.

And yet they still won. Not all teams have to have everyone doing something all the time. I wonder...how many other teams pre season camps have you been to and how would you compare them with what the Colts have done? Also how does what the Colts do now differe from when Tony ran the team or Mora ran the team?

[FireJimCaldwell]

And yet they still won. Not all teams have to have everyone doing something all the time. I wonder...how many other teams pre season camps have you been to and how would you compare them with what the Colts have done? Also how does what the Colts do now differe from when Tony ran the team or Mora ran the team?

Actually they haven't "still won" since this is the first "Training camp", and season to fall under the new limited contact rules.

[LUVTHESHOE]

Just know what I see. And what I see is not good.

And that's "Mr Joe" fan to you.

hey 4192 you act like you are smarter than everyone, set your alarm so you can wake up. maybe it is just me, but you always seem to be in the minority. lets face you are just as much joe fan as the rest of us.

[smittywerb]

So Garcon, a player who was key in getting them to the Super Bowl but drops a potential TD and that is the fault of the coach or the GM?

Or Manning making a poor throw on a route they run all the time is somehow Caldwell's fault?

I'm just getting tired of people blaming different players for why we lose when it's the GM who signs these players and the coach who coaches these players. There are only so many times you can blame a player before you have to start looking upstairs. Garcon drop and Manning throw didn't lose that game, we lost that game the minute we began to play conservative in the biggest game of the year. You don't go to the SB to play conservative, you go to the SB to take the trophy home. I blame the us playing conservative and playing 7 yds off of the WR's so Drew Brees can pick us apart on the coaches.

[John Dee]

i can't decide whether caldwell needs to be fired or if he deserve the coach of the year award

really

This truly is the question now that we have all witnessed a "Manningless" team. I am really shocked how "sad" everyone looks on O without PM. D,.... they are alright but the same old tendencies are at play with Painter at QB. NO ADJUSTMENTS.

[BIGugly]

And yet they still won. Not all teams have to have everyone doing something all the time. I wonder...how many other teams pre season camps have you been to and how would you compare them with what the Colts have done? Also how does what the Colts do now differe from when Tony ran the team or Mora ran the team?

Just been to ours. What I see under Caldwell is vastly different than previous coaches, previous years. Am I somehow not being clear about this?

[jskinnz]

hey 4192 you act like you are smarter than everyone, set your alarm so you can wake up. maybe it is just me, but you always seem to be in the minority. lets face you are just as much joe fan as the rest of us.

Just because he is not part of the lynch mob for Caldwell does not mean his points are not reasonable or rational. Some of the beliefs held by the anti Caldwell crowd are completely unreasonable and totally irrational - present company included.

[BIGugly]

Just because he is not part of the lynch mob for Caldwell does not mean his points are not reasonable or rational. Some of the beliefs held by the anti Caldwell crowd are completely unreasonable and totally irrational - present company included.

What points have been made? All I see are attacks on other's views.

[jskinnz]

What points have been made? All I see are attacks on other's views.

So Caldwell's sideline demeanor as evidence of his inability to coach is not an unreasonable criticism?

[BIGugly]

So Caldwell's sideline demeanor as evidence of his inability to coach is not an unreasonable criticism?

What ?????

[jskinnz]

What ?????

Sorry. Not on the same page. I think you are talking about DN1492 and I am talking about Cadwell.

[BIGugly]

Sorry. Not on the same page. I think you are talking about DN1492 and I am talking about Cadwell.

Yep, my rush to judgement gets in the way sometimes.

[GoGoColts]

Caldwell was our QB coach for a number of years in Indianapolis. Presumably, he knows QBs. Why was he not able to determine that Painter should have started week one?

Analysts have suggested that it might have something to do with Painter not getting any reps in practice due to Peyton's objections.

Either Caldwell is incompetent or weak which translates into incompetence as a head coach. A head coach must have the knowledge of football and the will to start the correct players.

[The Fish]

not a bad point, though hindsight is just that.

[ruksak]

not a bad point, though hindsight is just that.

No, I'm not allowing people to pander that "hindsight" excuse. No.

It became a flawed part of our culture here in Indy to not prepare for a Manning injury like an Arizona resident prepares for hurricanes. Manning bent his finger nail in one of the biggest games of his career (06AFCCG) and that had him questionable for a few minutes. What if that finger got broken? We lose and we still have zero rings.

Not developing Painter with some semblance of necessity has been a huge part of our still winless season.

[GoGoColts]

not a bad point, though hindsight is just that.

That would only be valid if Caldwell were in a situation where there wasn't a clear, correct choice for the football team. This was not the case. Caldwell failed.

[The Fish]

"No, I'm not allowing people to pander that "hindsight" excuse. No."

Hey now, Painter from every snap I saw from 2 years ago looked bad. So... I'm not surprised that the FO wanted to bring in a Vet. At the time I tended to think that it would of been in our better interest to play the vet. As far as the "no peyton" scenario.. they didn't know until it was to late. Nothing more nothing less.

[The Fish]

To painters credit were lucky he is as "good" as he is at this point.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I remember watching a New England preseason game and Belichick called time out and sent (I want to say Huard) in during the middle of a drive to simulate an injury to Brady just to have Huard go from being cold to having to get loose to play.

It's looking at every detail and practicing every scenario that separates Belichick from most every other NFL coach, and the ineptness seperates Caldwell in the opposite direction.

Caldwell comes off like he's highly organized in press conferences, but his on-the-filed, & in game decisions sure do not support that perception.

[jbaron04]

polian signs collins so collins had to start caldwell can over ride him

[FireJimCaldwell]

No, I'm not allowing people to pander that "hindsight" excuse. No.

It became a flawed part of our culture here in Indy to not prepare for a Manning injury like an Arizona resident prepares for hurricanes. Manning bent his finger nail in one of the biggest games of his career (06AFCCG) and that had him questionable for a few minutes. What if that finger got broken? We lose and we still have zero rings.

Not developing Painter with some semblance of necessity has been a huge part of our still winless season.

He also thought he broke his thumb and from what I remember, it did have a small fracture in that same game when he told Sorgi to get ready. Sorgi was more competent than Painter early on, but still might not have been good enough to do anything in a spur of the moment situation.