The Patriots' Real Problem- Football outsiders

[BOTT]

Here's what it all comes down to. You change one or two plays in the 2007 and 2011 Superbowls, and the Patriots are 5 time champions. You change one or two plays in the 2001, 2003, and 2004 Superbowls, and the Patriots have 0.

 

So what exactly IS the fundamental flaw of the more recent Patriots teams? According to the article and many who dislike the Patriots, it's some crazy combination of Tom Brady's inability to win in the postseason and the Patriots' inability to beat a good team after beating up on the bottom tier all year long. But in reality, it simply comes down (like anything in professional sports) to execution and a bounce here or there. The luck was on their side earlier in the decade and they won three Superbowls by a combined 9 points. The luck has been on the other side for the last few years and the Patriots lost two Superbowls by a combined 7 points. 

 

It really is as simple as that. 

Good point. With the parity in the nfl, many of the playoff games come down to good fortune.

[amfootball]

   

I have said this before, I am willing to admit that Brady played like trash against Baltimore three times in the playoffs, losing two and winning one by the skin of his teeth. They got his number. Not much I can say. Now, if I can admit that about a sixth round pick who was supposed to be holding a clip board his entire career why can't Colts fans do the same with the first pick with the football pedigree and 100 mil dollar contracts?

[Superman]

I have said this before, I am willing to admit that Brady played like trash against Baltimore three times in the playoffs, losing two and winning one by the skin of his teeth. They got his number. Not much I can say. Now, if I can admit that about a sixth round pick who was supposed to be holding a clip board his entire career why can't Colts fans do the same with the first pick with the football pedigree and 100 mil dollar contracts?

 

What does this thread have to do with Peyton Manning?

[amfootball]

What does this thread have to do with Peyton Manning?

Nothing. He was brought up first by Southwest in post #17 than by ADONIS in post #23.

[Superman]

Nothing. He was brought up first by Southwest in post #17 than by ADONIS in post #23.

 

Oh I forgot: You ignore context. Pretend I never said anything.

[amfootball]

Oh I forgot: You ignore context. Pretend I never said anything.

I lost you. Did you have an issue with my post? I was responding to ADONIS. It goes back a few posts.

[Superman]

I lost you. Did you have an issue with my post? I was responding to ADONIS. It goes back a few posts.

 

Yeah, cool deal. Carry on.

[bayone]

Nothing. He was brought up first by Southwest in post #17 than by ADONIS in post #23.

 

My Friend give me some credit, i brought up peyton first  in general terms    in comment 12  & continued saying  all players that deserve praise often get ripped on by someone for whatever reason & allegence they have( lol ) but i know where u r coming from

 

anyway have a good night 

[amfootball]

My Friend give me some credit, i brought up peyton first  in general terms    in comment 12  & continued saying  all players that deserve praise often get ripped on by someone for whatever reason & allegence they have( lol ) but i know where u r coming from

 

anyway have a good night 

My apologoies. :-)  For a thread about the Pats, Manning sure is all over it. ha,ha.

[Flying Elvis]

Every team has problems. Their are no "great" teams anymore. Every team is some shade of average. The super bowl champion Ravens lost 4 of their last 5 games going into the playoffs and should have lost to Denver in the divisional round.

[amfootball]

Every team has problems. Their are no "great" teams anymore. Every team is some shade of average. The super bowl champion Ravens lost 4 of their last 5 games going into the playoffs and should have lost to Denver in the divisional round.

Yes this is a product of the cap/FA era which makes teams like the Pats, Eagles, Steelers and Colts special as they continue to find ways to retool every year to stay competitve although both the eagles and steelers are in rebuild mode now.

 

BTW, this is also my argument for why continued success in this era far outweighs the dynasty teams of the other decades. Those teams were stacked and got to keep all their guys.

[JoKeR]

So saying the Pats run into better teams in the playoffs and the offense isn't as amazing as everyone thinks is bashing? Can there be opinions about the Pats without it being considered bashing or hype?

[amfootball]

So saying the Pats run into better teams in the playoffs and the offense isn't as amazing as everyone thinks is bashing? Can there be opinions about the Pats without it being considered bashing or hype?

No that is not bashing but that is not what the author said or implied.

[dynasty13]

So saying the Pats run into better teams in the playoffs and the offense isn't as amazing as everyone thinks is bashing? Can there be opinions about the Pats without it being considered bashing or hype?

 

Opinions are always welcomed, the only point I was trying to make in my response was that while the article tried to point out all the reasons why the Patriots apparently arent good in the playoffs anymore despite playing in the two Superbowls that were referenced, the difference between them being 5-time Champions and never having won any are 5 plays and 16 total points. It's actually pretty amazing when you think about how a team's fortunes and the perception of them overall can literally be made by a single play, bounce, or luck that day. One play...one single play is the difference between this article making a case for how the 19-0 Patriots were the greatest ever and making the case that they are in how the Patriots cant score enough to win anymore.

[GoPats]

Well thank goodness we'll only have to deal with that bum Tom Brady for another four or five years. I mean, you get to five Super Bowls and only win three? What the heck's up with THAT?

 

;)

 

In all seriousness though, Dynasty nailed this one. They won 3 SBs by a combined 9 points and lost two by a combined 7. A play here or a play there goes the other way, and they're just as easily 0-5 as they would be 5-0. The bounces will not always go your way, and things always average out. To some extent, starting off at 10-0 in the postseason for the Brady/Belichick duo has come back to haunt them a little, since no one can maintain that level of success in the NFL, period. Let alone in the playoffs.

 

Although when I played Madden I do remember winning something like 12 straight Super Bowls in Franchise Mode.

[LockeDown]

We don't know if the Pats organization is the model or not.  It's only been successful with the advent of Parcells and later Bellichik.  these 2 have a track record of being successful and then when they leave, it fails again.  If the Pats are the model org., then when Brady is done or Bellichik is done, the Pats will keep on rolling.  I have a sneaking suspicion they will fall back to where they were because Bellichik is the primary reason for the success.

[amfootball]

We don't know if the Pats organization is the model or not.  It's only been successful with the advent of Parcells and later Bellichik.  these 2 have a track record of being successful and then when they leave, it fails again.  If the Pats are the model org., then when Brady is done or Bellichik is done, the Pats will keep on rolling.  I have a sneaking suspicion they will fall back to where they were because Bellichik is the primary reason for the success.

I think you may have your history mixed up here. Parcells is the one that has left orgs as the HC not Belichick. Belichick was fired in Cleveland after six years. He has been with the Pats since 2000 and is currently the longest tendered coach in the league.

 

I am not sure what your definition of a model franchise is as the Pats have been the most successful organization in football since Kraft bought the team in 1994 (most regular and post-season wins, most divisional titles, most SBs wins, and most SB appearances). During that time he has had three head coaches (Parcells, Carrol, Belichick) and Bledsoe and Brady as his main QBs and one year with Matt Cassell when Brady went down in 2008. Cassell led them to an impressive 11-5 record that year. If anyone is to be credited for the Pats success it is Robert Kraft.

 

I think the unprecedented success the team has enjoyed since 2001 is due to Brady. Belichick was 8 games under .500 during his six years in Cleveland (36-44). His only winning season was in 1994 when he went to the playoffs and went 1-1. With Brady under center, he became the "genius."

[Colts_Fan12]

The amount of pats threads on here surprised me maybe I just thought all colts fans shared the same hatred for the pats as me

[GoPats]

We don't know if the Pats organization is the model or not.  It's only been successful with the advent of Parcells and later Bellichik.  these 2 have a track record of being successful and then when they leave, it fails again.  If the Pats are the model org., then when Brady is done or Bellichik is done, the Pats will keep on rolling.  I have a sneaking suspicion they will fall back to where they were because Bellichik is the primary reason for the success.

 

Fair statement, but you're right, we don't know. When the pieces start falling... probably Brady first, then Belichick... we'll find out.

 

But one thing about the Patriots is they have very solid ownership. Generally speaking, that's much more of a factor in the NFL than it is in other sports. And with Kraft's sons ready to take the reigns when Bob is done, odds are good that the family will own the team for many, many years to come.

[LockeDown]

The amount of pats threads on here surprised me maybe I just thought all colts fans shared the same hatred for the pats as me

I'm not a Pats fan.  I was interested in the title only.  There is one Pats guy that starts a thread everyday that says pretty much the same thing and there's 4-5 Colts fans who seem interested. 

[LockeDown]

I think you may have your history mixed up here. Parcells is the one that has left orgs as the HC not Belichick. Belichick was fired in Cleveland after six years. He has been with the Pats since 2000 and is currently the longest tendered coach in the league.

 

I am not sure what your definition of a model franchise is as the Pats have been the most successful organization in football since Kraft bought the team in 1994 (most regular and post-season wins, most divisional titles, most SBs wins, and most SB appearances). During that time he has had three head coaches (Parcells, Carrol, Belichick) and Bledsoe and Brady as his main QBs and one year with Matt Cassell when Brady went down in 2008. Cassell led them to an impressive 11-5 record that year. If anyone is to be credited for the Pats success it is Robert Kraft.

 

I think the unprecedented success the team has enjoyed since 2001 is due to Brady. Belichick was 8 games under .500 during his six years in Cleveland (36-44). His only winning season was in 1994 when he went to the playoffs and went 1-1. With Brady under center, he became the "genius."

 

My history isn't mixed up.  I'm old enough to have watched it happen.  The Pats were cellar dwellers forever until Parcells took Bledsoe to the Super Bowl.  That's when your journey began.  It wasn't Brady that started it.  Parcells knows how to draft and to inspire.  He got some good players, started a good program and then left because that's what he does.  Bellichik foregoes the Jets job that Parcells hands him and takes the Pats job and pretty much benifitted from Parcel's foundation. Bellichik doesn't draft well, but he knows defense.  He inherits a good foundation that basically won you several Super Bowls.  I personally think Bledsoe could have done the same thing but he never got the chance after his injury gave Brady his chance.  After Parcell's boys hit their peak and retired, the Pats never won another Super Bowl.  Sure you've been good but so have the Colts and Steelers during this period.  All of that leads to my point.  When Bellichik and Brady are gone and Kraft has to make decisions, we will then see if you are a model organization.

[dw49]

My history isn't mixed up.  I'm old enough to have watched it happen.  The Pats were cellar dwellers forever until Parcells took Bledsoe to the Super Bowl.  That's when your journey began.  It wasn't Brady that started it.  Parcells knows how to draft and to inspire.  He got some good players, started a good program and then left because that's what he does.  Bellichik foregoes the Jets job that Parcells hands him and takes the Pats job and pretty much benifitted from Parcel's foundation. Bellichik doesn't draft well, but he knows defense.  He inherits a good foundation that basically won you several Super Bowls.  I personally think Bledsoe could have done the same thing but he never got the chance after his injury gave Brady his chance.  After Parcell's boys hit their peak and retired, the Pats never won another Super Bowl.  Sure you've been good but so have the Colts and Steelers during this period.  All of that leads to my point.  When Bellichik and Brady are gone and Kraft has to make decisions, we will then see if you are a model organization.

 

 

 

It's really very simple. This is a QB driven league now. If you have a franchise QB , you will generally compete year after year. By franchise , I mean a guy like Brady , Manning and Rodgers. When Brady is over the hill , we shall then see how much "smater R Kraft is than his buddies.

 

If you look at Manning , you will see that his team has been a similar model to the Pats. NE had a little more sucess , IMO , becuase of better coaching and maybe Brady was a hair better in then clutch. The Packers will always be in the running with Rodgers and I think you will see the same with the Skins and Colts. This is why you see a team like Washington give up 3 1's and a 2 to move up 4-5 spots in a draft.

[dw49]

Well thank goodness we'll only have to deal with that bum Tom Brady for another four or five years. I mean, you get to five Super Bowls and only win three? What the heck's up with THAT?

 

;)

 

In all seriousness though, Dynasty nailed this one. They won 3 SBs by a combined 9 points and lost two by a combined 7. A play here or a play there goes the other way, and they're just as easily 0-5 as they would be 5-0. The bounces will not always go your way, and things always average out. To some extent, starting off at 10-0 in the postseason for the Brady/Belichick duo has come back to haunt them a little, since no one can maintain that level of success in the NFL, period. Let alone in the playoffs.

 

Although when I played Madden I do remember winning something like 12 straight Super Bowls in Franchise Mode.

 

 

 

 

Yes a few plays here and there but lets not forget a "hold or ten" on Marshall Faulk in the 1st SB win.

[bluebambi]

The amount of pats threads on here surprised me maybe I just thought all colts fans shared the same hatred for the pats as me

We have some resident pats fans who think we want to be informed of there team . Not saying they are all bad but a few in particular go out of there way to instigate fights by always underhand means f insulting manning and the Colts

[Colts_Fan12]

We have some resident pats fans who think we want to be informed of there team . Not saying they are all bad but a few in particular go out of there way to instigate fights by always underhand means f insulting manning and the Colts

that's ok they can think wat they want but our franchise is one of the most respected in the nfl not cause of titles or wins but by how we run it we have one great franchise and I'm proud I'm a colts fan and IMO my team had and made the greatest QB ever and Ik that we never did anything as low to cheat to win but no matter wat any fan of any team says I'm always gonna bleed blue and white

[amfootball]

My history isn't mixed up.  I'm old enough to have watched it happen.  The Pats were cellar dwellers forever until Parcells took Bledsoe to the Super Bowl.  That's when your journey began.  It wasn't Brady that started it.  Parcells knows how to draft and to inspire.  He got some good players, started a good program and then left because that's what he does.  Bellichik foregoes the Jets job that Parcells hands him and takes the Pats job and pretty much benifitted from Parcel's foundation. Bellichik doesn't draft well, but he knows defense.  He inherits a good foundation that basically won you several Super Bowls.  I personally think Bledsoe could have done the same thing but he never got the chance after his injury gave Brady his chance.  After Parcell's boys hit their peak and retired, the Pats never won another Super Bowl.  Sure you've been good but so have the Colts and Steelers during this period.  All of that leads to my point.  When Bellichik and Brady are gone and Kraft has to make decisions, we will then see if you are a model organization.

Again, many of your facts here are not correct. The Patriots were not cellar dwellers forever until Parcells arrived. They fielded playoff teams in the 70s with Steve Grogan at the helm and may have won the championship in 1976 if not for a very controversial roughing the QB call against Oakland. In 1986 the Patriots were in the SB against the Bears but once Eason was done they began to decline mostly because they had a carousel of QBs that were not any good until Bledsoe came in 1992.

 

In terms of Parcells and Belichick, the history is a lot more complicated. Parcells left the Patriots after disagreements with owner Robert Kraft; Parcells felt he did not have enough input in player personnel decisions. Upon his departure, Parcells famously stated: "They want you to cook the dinner; at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries. Okay?" This was mainly in reference to an incident in the Patriots' war room during the 1996 Draft where Parcells, who wanted to draft a defensive player with their first-round choice, was vetoed by Kraft, and the Patriots selected Ohio State WR Terry Glenn.

 

Although Parcells had decided to leave New England, his contract did not allow him to coach anywhere else. The New York Jets sought Parcells as head coach and general manager after a 4–28 record under Rich Kotite. To circumvent Parcells' contractual obligations, the Jets hired Bill Belichick (then the No. 1 assistant to Parcells) as the Jets coach, and then hired Parcells in an "advisory" role. New England threatened legal action against Parcells and the Jets, but NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue brokered a deal between the two sides, with New England releasing Parcells from his contract and the Jets giving New England a third and fourth round pick that year, a second round pick the next year and a first round draft choice the year after that.

 

I agree with your point that Belichick won his championships largely with Parcells team but Belichick is the one that not only drafted Brady, but had the guts to start him over Bledsoe. I am not sure what makes you believe Bledsoe would have achieved any of the success as Brady. Bledsoe had the same team as Brady did in 2000 and went 5-11. He began 2001 0-2 before Brady stepped in and went 14-3 and won the Super Bowl. He was then traded per his request to a pretty good Bills team in 2002 and in three seasons he went 23-25 and was then released after the 2004 season to make way for backup quarterback J.P. Losman. It was the second time that his team had let him go for a younger quarterback.

 

He was then reunited with Parcells in Dallas for two seasons where he never made the playoffs and was replaced by the undrafted free agent Tony Romo.

 

In terms of the Pats being a model franchise, the model will not cease to exist even if they stop winning. The model is not the players but the management. I do not believe any organization as long as the FA/cap era is in existence will ever achieve the same level of success as the Pats have over the past 19 seasons and counting…Robert Kraft is a special man and owner.

[-JJ-]

Again, many of your facts here are not correct. The Patriots were not cellar dwellers forever until Parcells arrived. They fielded playoff teams in the 70s with Steve Grogan at the helm and may have won the championship in 1976 if not for a very controversial roughing the QB call against Oakland. In 1986 the Patriots were in the SB against the Bears but once Eason was done they began to decline mostly because they had a carousel of QBs that were not any good until Bledsoe came in 1992.

 

In terms of Parcells and Belichick, the history is a lot more complicated. Parcells left the Patriots after disagreements with owner Robert Kraft; Parcells felt he did not have enough input in player personnel decisions. Upon his departure, Parcells famously stated: "They want you to cook the dinner; at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries. Okay?" This was mainly in reference to an incident in the Patriots' war room during the 1996 Draft where Parcells, who wanted to draft a defensive player with their first-round choice, was vetoed by Kraft, and the Patriots selected Ohio State WR Terry Glenn.

 

Although Parcells had decided to leave New England, his contract did not allow him to coach anywhere else. The New York Jets sought Parcells as head coach and general manager after a 4–28 record under Rich Kotite. To circumvent Parcells' contractual obligations, the Jets hired Bill Belichick (then the No. 1 assistant to Parcells) as the Jets coach, and then hired Parcells in an "advisory" role. New England threatened legal action against Parcells and the Jets, but NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue brokered a deal between the two sides, with New England releasing Parcells from his contract and the Jets giving New England a third and fourth round pick that year, a second round pick the next year and a first round draft choice the year after that.

 

I agree with your point that Belichick won his championships largely with Parcells team but Belichick is the one that not only drafted Brady, but had the guts to start him over Bledsoe. I am not sure what makes you believe Bledsoe would have achieved any of the success as Brady. Bledsoe had the same team as Brady did in 2000 and went 5-11. He began 2001 0-2 before Brady stepped in and went 14-3 and won the Super Bowl. He was then traded per his request to a pretty good Bills team in 2002 and in three seasons he went 23-25 and was then released after the 2004 season to make way for backup quarterback J.P. Losman. It was the second time that his team had let him go for a younger quarterback.

 

He was then reunited with Parcells in Dallas for two seasons where he never made the playoffs and was replaced by the undrafted free agent Tony Romo.

 

In terms of the Pats being a model franchise, the model will not cease to exist even if they stop winning. The model is not the players but the management. I do not believe any organization as long as the FA/cap era is in existence will ever achieve the same level of success as the Pats have over the past 19 seasons and counting…Robert Kraft is a special man and owner.

That's pretty much the history. Fairbanks was the beginning of any kind of success,  short lived because he left, and Raymond Berry got us to the 86 SB.

 

I liked Bledsoe but he wasn't getting us to a SB under BB. The reason being he couldn't throw short (actually he just threw it too hard) and without a running game BB wanted short passing managed . Enter Tom:)

 

Also Parcells built the teams but BB's defense planning won those Giants SB.

[amfootball]

That's pretty much the history. Fairbanks was the beginning of any kind of success,  short lived because he left, and Raymond Berry got us to the 86 SB.

 

I liked Bledsoe but he wasn't getting us to a SB under BB. The reason being he couldn't throw short (actually he just threw it too hard) and without a running game BB wanted short passing managed . Enter Tom:)

 

Also Parcells built the teams but BB's defense planning won those Giants SB.

Bledsoe also lacked the leadership skills and forced the ball down field too many times. He was a victim of his big arm - felt he could fit the ball in anywhere and was picked a lot as a result. I loved the guy for what he brought to NE at a time when we were starving for a legit QB but once Brady took over, you could more clearly see all of Bledsoe's shortcomings. I remember thinking for years that it was his offensive line that was the issue, or lack of big time receivers and then Brady stepped on the field and all of a sudden guys like Jermaine Wiggins were making catches and Troy Brown was no longer getting cut, and Antoine Smith starting running like a bull.

 

I would have loved to see Brady play under Parcells as HC and Belichick as DC. Parcells never had a QB of Brady's cailber and he was great at getting so much out of his QBs. I think they may have won even more if Parcells stayed.

[LockeDown]

Don't make it sound like you were better than you were.  Most of the time you guys were in last place in the AFC East.  Grogan was tough but not that good.  Eason was not tough and not that good.  Parcells started your magic run like he did many other teams.  He took your team to the Super Bowl.  He made a bad Jets team relevant. He won 2 Super Bowls with the Giants.  He took a hapless Cowboys team, had some good drafts and made them a playoff team except Romo found a way to screw even that up.  What I'm saying is it's not Kraft that's a genius here.  Parcells got you the players, in a way he sent Bellichik to you (by driving him away) and then you won your SB's.  You haven't won anything since all of his players have gone.  You can argue that but I was there in those days and the Pats were not a relevant team.    

[amfootball]

Don't make it sound like you were better than you were.  Most of the time you guys were in last place in the AFC East.  Grogan was tough but not that good.  Eason was not tough and not that good.  Parcells started your magic run like he did many other teams.  He took your team to the Super Bowl.  He made a bad Jets team relevant. He won 2 Super Bowls with the Giants.  He took a hapless Cowboys team, had some good drafts and made them a playoff team except Romo found a way to screw even that up.  What I'm saying is it's not Kraft that's a genius here.  Parcells got you the players, in a way he sent Bellichik to you (by driving him away) and then you won your SB's.  You haven't won anything since all of his players have gone.  You can argue that but I was there in those days and the Pats were not a relevant team.    

 

You had said the Patriots were forever cellar dwellers before Parcells. That is simply not true. They were in the playoffs in the 70’s and made the Super Bowl in the 80’s. Grogan and Eason were very good QBs just not Brady, but who is?

 

I get that you are a huge Parcells fan. I am too but honestly the guy shot himself in the foot over and over again. As you say, he turned around several losing franchises only to split right when the team was ready to contend for championships. Kraft never wanted Parcells to leave. He has talked about that ad nauseam but Parcells always got that four year itch. I think he liked the challenge of rebuilding a team but got bored once it was done and wanted a new challenge.

 

And if you want to give ALL the credit to Parcells then you have to acknowledge that Kraft was the real genius for hiring him. Also, the Pats were not handed Belichick because of Parcells. In fact, when Parcells left for NY, he took Belichick with him and then lured away Curtis Martin and other Pats players. The Patriots got Belichick because they gave the Jets a first round draft pick who everyone thought was ridiculously high for a guy who was below .500 in six seasons as HC in Cleveland. Kraft saw the coach that Belichick would become and the rest is history.

 

I do agree the championships the Pats won were largely comprised of Parcells players but Belichick had a hand in picking many of the defensive players given he was the DC those years in NE. Also, Belichick has not done nothing since the champ years. He has gone to two more SBs and four AFC champ games with his own guys and has won coach of the year TWICE (he has won the award three times while Parcells has two). And like I said before, he is the one that not only drafted Brady but had the guts to start him over Bledsoe. He has also never had a losing season since 2000. That is 13 seasons including 2008 when Brady only played the first half of game one and Cassell came in and went 11-5.

 

As long as Robert Kraft is in control, the Pats will continue to succeed, probably not to the level of the early ‘00s as those years were historic but they will have success. The model by the way is already in place. Every NFL has tried or is trying to copy the Pats success but it is hard to do unless you have a guy like Kraft at the helm.

[Narcosys]

Single greatest statement in that article.

Brady Just Chokes.

[GoPats]

Yes a few plays here and there but lets not forget a "hold or ten" on Marshall Faulk in the 1st SB win.

 

 

Marshall? Marshall Faulk... is that you? C'mon now, you can tell us. ;)

[amfootball]

Marshall? Marshall Faulk... is that you? C'mon now, you can tell us. ;)

Faulk still seethes over that SB loss. I love it. :-)

[GoPats]

Faulk still seethes over that SB loss. I love it. :-)

 

Yes, and he makes himself look extremely foolish every time he does. You got your rear end handed to you, Marshall... acceptance is the first step on the road to recovery.