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Should the Colts go after Ray Horton for DC?

chad72

By chad72
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chad72

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Young dynamic defensive co-ordinator who apparently was mad that he was passed over for the Cardinals head coaching job.

 

He has terrific knack of coaching the 3-4, aggressive coach, and he is available for a brief period of time, in all likelihood.

 

If we are going through so many changes in personnel, do we replace Manusky with Ray Horton while he is available? I heard Manusky was not Pagano's first choice, Keith Butler of the Steelers was who dodged us eventually.

 

Thoughts???

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PrincetonTiger Ring of Honor

PrincetonTiger

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Young dynamic defensive co-ordinator who apparently was mad that he was passed over for the Cardinals head coaching job.

 

He has terrific knack of coaching the 3-4, aggressive coach, and he is available for a brief period of time, in all likelihood.

 

If we are going through so many changes in personnel, do we replace Manusky with Ray Horton while he is available? I heard Manusky was not Pagano's first choice, Keith Butler of the Steelers was who dodged us eventually.

 

Thoughts???

Butler was named the DC in waiting or he would have been on Pagano's staff

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Coltsfan23 Walk On

Coltsfan23

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He was already hired by the Browns, but if he were available then I'd say that Manusky has done nothing to warrant being fired. 

 

With basically nothing to work with and a new system this season really didn't count for Manusky. Now come next season (assuming talent is added on D) we don't see a drastic improvement he very well may be shown the door. Especially being he wasn't even the first choice for DC anyway but the backup plan after they missed on the guy from Pitt. 

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GoColts8818 Ring of Honor

GoColts8818

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Why do people keep starting these threads?  Manusky isn't going any where.  We went from 2-14 to 11-5 no coaches are getting fired.  They only way they would be replaced is if they left for another job and since there are no more head coaching jobs open I don't see him taking a lateral move after only being in Indy for one year. 

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Coltsfan23 Walk On

Coltsfan23

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Why do people keep starting these threads?  Manusky isn't going any where.  We went from 2-14 to 11-5 no coaches are getting fired.  They only way they would be replaced is if they left for another job and since there are no more head coaching jobs open I don't see him taking a lateral move after only being in Indy for one year. 

 

 

Marwan Maalouf the special teams coach would beg to differ. They may not have publicly stated that he was fired. But who would willingly leave a team that just won the playoffs without somewhere else to jump to. Manusky gets a mulligan for this season but that doesn't mean the defense was good. If they don't show a huge improvement next season he will be out. 

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GoColts8818

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Marwan Maalouf the special teams coach would beg to differ. They may not have publicly stated that he was fired. But who would willingly leave a team that just won the playoffs without somewhere else to jump to. Manusky gets a mulligan for this season but that doesn't mean the defense was good. If they don't show a huge improvement next season he will be out. 

Yeah right after the season not close to two weeks later.  If they were going to fire Manusky they would have done it when Maalouf left.  It also said they parted mutually so there is no proof to say he was fired other than people reading into it what they want to see. 

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dw49 Team Captain

dw49

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Yeah right after the season not close to two weeks later.  If they were going to fire Manusky they would have done it when Maalouf left.  It also said they parted mutually so there is no proof to say he was fired other than people reading into it what they want to see. 

 

 

Add to that the fact that Manusky is the ony co-ordinator left. So that would mean that the team would have to adjust to new special team play , a new offense and a new defense. C'mon guys  do a little thinking before posting this kind of stuff. Imagine a team going from 2-14 to 11-5 and firing two of the 3 co -ordinators. 

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GoColts8818

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Add to that the fact that Manusky is the ony co-ordinator left. So that would mean that the team would have to adjust to new special team play , a new offense and a new defense. C'mon guys  do a little thinking before posting this kind of stuff. Imagine a team going from 2-14 to 11-5 and firing two of the 3 co -ordinators. 

right and coming off a year where the coach coached all of four games.  We saw in the Ravens game Manusky was right there next to Pagano talking to him threw out the game and talked him into a challenge (it turned out to be wrong none the less) but I think Chuck is still getting used to being a coach and guy like Manusky helps that. 

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GoColts8818

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I think people also have a tendecy to forget how little change was made to our defense from last year as well.  Redding and Davis were brought in and had big impacts on our defense.  McKinnie was hurt before the year even started so you can't grade him yet.  Freeman was brought in but no one saw that one coming.  Guys like Vaughn, Butler, and Zibs were just place holders.  Same with the other guys brought in to play end and LBs.  Other than Davis and Redding they didn't really get any play makers for the defense either.  For the most part it was most of the same guys who have struggled for years on defense.  Add to that guys like Freeney and Bethea had a down year and I think it's clear the defense just doesn't have the talent yet.  You have to give the coach the talent before you can judge him completely.  We do not have the play makers we need on defense yet. 

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NewColtsFan Ring of Honor

NewColtsFan

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I think people also have a tendecy to forget how little change was made to our defense from last year as well.  Redding and Davis were brought in and had big impacts on our defense.  McKinnie was hurt before the year even started so you can't grade him yet.  Freeman was brought in but no one saw that one coming.  Guys like Vaughn, Butler, and Zibs were just place holders.  Same with the other guys brought in to play end and LBs.  Other than Davis and Redding they didn't really get any play makers for the defense either.  For the most part it was most of the same guys who have struggled for years on defense.  Add to that guys like Freeney and Bethea had a down year and I think it's clear the defense just doesn't have the talent yet.  You have to give the coach the talent before you can judge him completely.  We do not have the play makers we need on defense yet. 

 

Love ya, 8818,  but a strong disagreement here...

 

How little change was made?    How about from the 4-3 in '11 to the 3-4 in '12.    Polian went on and on this year about how the defensive guys were not skilled in the 3-4 so they were playing in a defense that they're not the best at.   And yet, they played well enough that we won 11 games.     I think that's on Manusky.    And no one is going to say he had a lot of talent to work with.

 

I think Manusky gets more than 2013 to prove himself.   I think he's earned a good long look.   Pagano knows DC talent and he seems very happy with him.

 

Also,  to the poster who claimed the firing of our special teams coach shows that Manusky will only get one more year and then he's fired,  I think the parting of the ways for our special teams coach could be something else entirely other than he wasn't doing a good enough job....   I suspect there's much more to this story than meets the eye...

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GoColts8818

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Love ya, 8818,  but a strong disagreement here...

 

How little change was made?    How about from the 4-3 in '11 to the 3-4 in '12.    Polian went on and on this year about how the defensive guys were not skilled in the 3-4 so they were playing in a defense that they're not the best at.   And yet, they played well enough that we won 11 games.     I think that's on Manusky.    And no one is going to say he had a lot of talent to work with.

 

I think Manusky gets more than 2013 to prove himself.   I think he's earned a good long look.   Pagano knows DC talent and he seems very happy with him.

 

Also,  to the poster who claimed the firing of our special teams coach shows that Manusky will only get one more year and then he's fired,  I think the parting of the ways for our special teams coach could be something else entirely other than he wasn't doing a good enough job....   I suspect there's much more to this story than meets the eye...

I am not talking about the system I am talking about the personal.  Our opening day starting line up featured all of four new players on defense that were not on the roster last year.  Davis, Redding, Zibs, and Freeman and at the time Freeman was only starting due to an injury to Angerer. 

 

From there injuries forced us to make other moves which is why I called them stop gap guys.  They were not brought in expected to be guys to turn the defense around.  They were brought in just so we would have bodies. 

 

If you look at the four names I mentioned above I think you have to take Freeman out of the equation because no one saw what he did coming even Grigson has admitted he surpassed his expectations.  Zibs I would call another stop gap guy and if nothing else has proven he is not really the answer at safety.  Redding and Davis I would say were the only major guys brought in with the expectation that they would help to sure up the defense. 

 

Now compare that to an offense that had all of two starters back from last year at the skill positions in Wayne and Brown.  Even when you factor in the line they had four starters back with Castonzo and Reitz added to the list.  So out of 11 positions seven were new starters.  The defense was the exact reverse. 

 

That's why it's never caught me by surprise that the defense was not turned around much this season.  Personal wise it was mostly the same guys who hadn't been very good at defense the past few years.  That's not what they focused on during the off-season.  I think that will change this year.  I think they will try to get more new personal and Grigson even alluded to it after the draft last year. 

 

Yes they changed the system but this past year they were trying to take a lot of 4-3 parts and force them into a 3-4 and that doesn't always work.  That's why I think you'll see them let a guy like Freeney walk and replace him with a true 3-4 OLB.  I also think they are going to look for a better number two corner than Powers as well as try to upgrade Zibs at the Safety poistion.  They might even make a move at end depending on what happens with Moala.  Heck they still need a proven 3-4 NT which is what makes a 3-4 work or not most of the time.  Chapman may or may not be that guy we have no way of knowing.  I think beyond him they really just have a bunch of nice rotation players in McKinnie when he's healthy and Johnson. 

 

In a lot of ways the defense hasn't been fully addressed yet and hasn't gotten nearly the attention the offense has.  With that said when you take a QB number one overall that isn't really shocking but I do think we need to hold off on our complete judgement of the defense so far.  It's still a work in progress much like the offensive line on offense.  Last year they focused on getting Luck his weapons so they could grow up with him. Now I think they will focus on fixing the line and defense that they really had to put band aides on last year. 

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I am not talking about the system I am talking about the personal.  Our opening day starting line up featured all of four new players on defense that were not on the roster last year.  Davis, Redding, Zibs, and Freeman and at the time Freeman was only starting due to an injury to Angerer. 

 

From there injuries forced us to make other moves which is why I called them stop gap guys.  They were not brought in expected to be guys to turn the defense around.  They were brought in just so we would have bodies. 

 

If you look at the four names I mentioned above I think you have to take Freeman out of the equation because no one saw what he did coming even Grigson has admitted he surpassed his expectations.  Zibs I would call another stop gap guy and if nothing else has proven he is not really the answer at safety.  Redding and Davis I would say were the only major guys brought in with the expectation that they would help to sure up the defense. 

 

Now compare that to an offense that had all of two starters back from last year at the skill positions in Wayne and Brown.  Even when you factor in the line they had four starters back with Castonzo and Reitz added to the list.  So out of 11 positions seven were new starters.  The defense was the exact reverse. 

 

That's why it's never caught me by surprise that the defense was not turned around much this season.  Personal wise it was mostly the same guys who hadn't been very good at defense the past few years.  That's not what they focused on during the off-season.  I think that will change this year.  I think they will try to get more new personal and Grigson even alluded to it after the draft last year. 

 

Yes they changed the system but this past year they were trying to take a lot of 4-3 parts and force them into a 3-4 and that doesn't always work.  That's why I think you'll see them let a guy like Freeney walk and replace him with a true 3-4 OLB.  I also think they are going to look for a better number two corner than Powers as well as try to upgrade Zibs at the Safety poistion.  They might even make a move at end depending on what happens with Moala.  Heck they still need a proven 3-4 NT which is what makes a 3-4 work or not most of the time.  Chapman may or may not be that guy we have no way of knowing.  I think beyond him they really just have a bunch of nice rotation players in McKinnie when he's healthy and Johnson. 

 

In a lot of ways the defense hasn't been fully addressed yet and hasn't gotten nearly the attention the offense has.  With that said when you take a QB number one overall that isn't really shocking but I do think we need to hold off on our complete judgement of the defense so far.  It's still a work in progress much like the offensive line on offense.  Last year they focused on getting Luck his weapons so they could grow up with him. Now I think they will focus on fixing the line and defense that they really had to put band aides on last year. 

 

Good post...  and now that I understand what your point is, I agree...

 

I remember Grigson/Pagano talking about how upset Manusky was during the last draft because they kept passing over defensive players for offensive guys...    said Manusky was really * and often went to the workout room and road the exercise bike to ride off the steam...    Funny stuff...

 

I too think there's little doubt we'll try and get as many quality defensive pieces this off-season to go along with a new offensive line.     Hopefully, some nice belated Xmas presents for all Colts fans...

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One thing I would like to point out is that this was supposed to be "Coach Pagano's" defense.....not Manusky's.  Pagano's stamp was to be on the play-calling.  Manusky is more conservative in his philosophy than Pags.  With Arians in the HC role, the team was more or less on Manusky watch and we went 11-5.  Did we like our run defense?  Did we like our pass defense?  I will let you answer that....Did we like the way the MEN that we did not even know come in and make plays?  I will answer a resounding YES!   :thmup:  :thmup:  :thmup: !!!

 

This is the result of Manusky, Emmanuel, Anderson, Fitzgerald, Gillhamer and YES Pagano's ability to TEACH new players and have the old guys (Freeney and Mathis...Bethea etc) buy in to the new system!  I give Manusky and staff an A for their teaching.  I said when he was hired he was conservative, but was known as an excellent teacher. Why else would Guy come in and produce?  Geathers?  Heard?  Butler?( I know some credit goes to Mr. Redding :)).......and yes a lil fella named Freeman?   :spit: Feel free to list more no-names.....

 

I want to go on record as saying I was NOT comfortable with the Manusky hire.....this year will tell us the story.  For now I am going to sit back, and let Grigs, Pags, and Raye go get us some talent and spend 'some' of Jim Irsay's dinero!  Pags' stamp will be more evident on the 2013/14 Indianapolis Colts defense....mark my word!!! :colts:  :colts:  :colts:!!!! 

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Truckin Sanders

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Adrian Peterson is really really Good... do we have him?

Patrick Peterson is really really Good... do we have him?

No, we don't. Manusky has done absolutely NOTHING to lose his Job.

Unless someone feels he has

Dumb post is dumb. If Adrian Peterson or Patrick Peterson were available hell yes we better both go after them. Peterson > Ballard. Peterson > all our DB's and Horton > Manusky. Thanks for trying though.

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GoColts8818

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Dumb post is dumb. If Adrian Peterson or Patrick Peterson were available hell yes we better both go after them. Peterson > Ballard. Peterson > all our DB's and Horton > Manusky. Thanks for trying though.

Comparing players to coaches is not the samething.  If say BB was on the market do you think the Colts would fire Pagano just to take a shot at him? 

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