AR vs Young vs Stroud vs Levis

[throwing BBZ]

 

 In search of intelligent topics.

[BeanDiasucci]

On 10/3/2023 at 6:27 AM, Nickster said:

I haven’t seen a single down of Young, but using ESPN, his QBR is 25 which is as bad as it gets and his passer rating is 75.  I don’t know what’s going on over there at all, but the notion that Reich produces bad QB numbers is an untenable position to take statistically.  Luck had the best year of his career under Reich, Wentz had a QBR 20 + points higher than the season before and the season after, Rivers had a major bounce back year with 2 bad ankles, and for a couple months, some deluded media types thought of Jacoby friggin Brissett as an MVP candidate.  Ryan sucked but he sucked way worse under ole Jeff and was clearly washed up.  Not a huge Reich guy but his system historically appears very QB friendly.  

Frank has had success but I wonder if his coaching and concepts have fallen behind where the league is now. He seemed to be talking about a run-first approach to set up the passing game offense after that was out of vogue. And I wonder how much influence he had in the Colts picking big strong receivers instead of more dynamic ones. I don't think they'd have Josh Downs if he was still here and I'd bet the wr core will change and improve in the years ahead. 

 

Don't you think the improvement in the offensive game plan and execution with the change in coaching has been apparent? Wouldn't Richardson be less effective in Frank's offense? 

[DougDew]

14 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

You actually think stetson bennett was a good as Bryce Young in college.   This may be your coup de grâce of bad takes.   Well done

Well, just notice how your comment was an unnecessary spark that's going unreported.....this time.  I offer this well-reasoned and calm rebuttal.

 

I value your opinion on the matter, since your are the self appointed forum expert on bad takes.

 

Bennett was a Heisman Finalist, but the SM bias treated him like some kind of token that was propelled by the talent around him.  Kind of like Brock Purdy...the SM experts didn't even know they existed....must be only focusing on how athletic QBs are, but somehow discarding them both out of hand for some reason..... 

 

As far as translating that to the NFL.  Bennett then tested out to have NFL elite sized hands, elite ball velocity, and elite foot speed (4.6?) for the QB position, while Young has yet to be tested.  Just because its acceptable for SM to treat Bennett like a token, doesn't mean his college resume isn't equal to Young's, and his test scores probably show he's a superior physical specimen.  After all, find me another 5'10"" QB with 10 inch hands, 59mph ball speed, that runs a 4.6 40.

 

Bennett might even be physically superior to Russell Wilson back in the day.

 

I wouldn't go to the mat arguing that Bennett was better than Young, (for one, I don't care because they are both shrimpy) he seems to have some mental demons to extinguish...but its also not like Young is setting the NFL on fire with his mental grasp of the NFL game either. 

 

As far as my other "bad takes"  over the years (meaning unpopular takes relative to parroting the popular)

 

1.  Luck's tendency to lead the lead in holding the ball almost got himself killed....it was not his GM

2. Malik Hooker's draft position

3. Quenton Nelson's draft position

4. Flus 4-3 WILLs can come in and play well as rookies, because chasing and tackling the ball carrier is what a WILL does, and what college LBers do.  A GM can draft one every 3 to 4 years.

5.  The Oline sucks without AC, no matter who is playing LG.

6. Can't have a competent oline without a competent LT.

7. Skilled positions are more important than interior oline positions.

8. The Colts will advance deep into the playoffs when they have skill position talent that's good enough to advance deep into the playoffs (still waiting......yawn).

9.  Jalen Hurts is a great game-manager type of QB...but physically stronger than Brock Purdy.

9. AR will become as good of an NFL QB as his passing game acumen will take him.  The running part just isn't that important over the 9 year career we all hope he has.

 

Many folks are coming to realize that each of these are true.  Meanwhile, you still tell yourself that I have bad takes.

 

[Colt.45]

Performance in expected passing situations:

 

 

[Nickster]

4 hours ago, BeanDiasucci said:

Frank has had success but I wonder if his coaching and concepts have fallen behind where the league is now. He seemed to be talking about a run-first approach to set up the passing game offense after that was out of vogue. And I wonder how much influence he had in the Colts picking big strong receivers instead of more dynamic ones. I don't think they'd have Josh Downs if he was still here and I'd bet the wr core will change and improve in the years ahead. 

 

Don't you think the improvement in the offensive game plan and execution with the change in coaching has been apparent? Wouldn't Richardson be less effective in Frank's offense? 

 

I like what I've seen so far from SS.  Game plans I'm not sure, I like some of the stuff I've seen, but game plans usually effect the 1st half more than the 2nd and we've done most of our damage late other than the Texans game.  Scheme sure.  The running QB is the most difficult thing to account for when playing defense. 

 

People seem to gloss over the fact that Frank's teams that weren't led by Matt Ryan were good offenses.  Even the Jacoby year we averaged 23 points.   Point being I am not overly impressed by our offense this year.  It's been OK.  I am interested in seeing where it goes.   Frank's Os   2018  27.1 ppg, (Luck)   2019  22.6 (JB)  2020  28.2  (Rivers)  2021  26.5  (Wentz)  

 

Frank's teams scored points consistently and at times prolificly.

 

Doesn't mean I don't like some of what I see from SS so far.   

 

[Nickster]

7 hours ago, Stephen said:

The qbs that sit are usually  because  they can't  handle  the adversity  of being  in the fire right away. Richardson  has shown he can handle  adversity. You don't  sit a guy that shows that.

 

i don't think Reed sat Mahomes for that reason.  As a matter of fact I think that he has said he would never go into a season starting a rookie QB.  It's only very recently that many QBs have started right away. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

2 hours ago, Colt.45 said:

Performance in expected passing situations:

 

 

That seems pretty good for Richardson.

[Colt.45]

34 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

That seems pretty good for Richardson.

Yup. Executing when everyone knows what you want to do. Best of the rooks.

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, Nickster said:

 

i don't think Reed sat Mahomes for that reason.  As a matter of fact I think that he has said he would never go into a season starting a rookie QB.  It's only very recently that many QBs have started right away. 

For Reed Alex Smith had a career year so there was no need to start mahomes  right away

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

For Reed Alex Smith had a career year so there was no need to start mahomes  right away

But I think he’s opposed to it philosophically.

[rockywoj]

Over at NFL.com, in this week’s QB rankings, they rate AR as 17th, one slot ahead of Trevor Lawrence!  They ranked Stroud 13th, and Bryce Young 27th.

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-week-5-josh-allen-claims-no-1-spot-dak-prescott-trending-up

 

From the write-up on AR, “He's a legitimate Offensive Rookie of the Year candidate after one month.”

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

11 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

Over at NFL.com, in this week’s QB rankings, they rate AR as 17th, one slot ahead of Trevor Lawrence!  They ranked Stroud 13th, and Bryce Young 27th.

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-week-5-josh-allen-claims-no-1-spot-dak-prescott-trending-up

 

From the write-up on AR, “He's a legitimate Offensive Rookie of the Year candidate after one month.”

That sounds fair. I have no problem putting Stroud ahead of Richardson because of his passing yards.

[rockywoj]

1 hour ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

That sounds fair. I have no problem putting Stroud ahead of Richardson because of his passing yards.

Totally fair at this juncture, for sure.  Hopefully after the next 4 games, though, the Stroud / AR relative ranking will reverse.

[2006Coltsbestever]

So far not being biased, Stroud has been the best out of the 3. It is mainly because he has been able to stay healthy which reliability is important obviously. When AR has been out there, he has looked better than I thought he would. Young has been the worst of the 3 IMO, he can't stay healthy either (missing 2 games already) and his team is 0-5. At least AR has made some spectacular plays.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

24 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

So far not being biased, Stroud has been the best out of the 3. It is mainly because he has been able to stay healthy which reliability is important obviously. When AR has been out there, he has looked better than I thought he would. Young has been the worst of the 3 IMO, he can't stay healthy either (missing 2 games already) and his team is 0-5. At least AR has made some spectacular plays.

Young only missed one

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Young only missed one

You would be correct, here are the correct stats and W/L as a starter

 

Young

750 Yards, 63.9%, 5 TD's/0 rushing TD's (totaling 5 TD's), 4 INT's. 0-4 as a starter.

 

AR

577 Yards, 59.5%, 3 TD's/4 rushing TD's (totaling 7 TD's), 1 INT. 2-2 as a starter.

 

Stroud

1461 Yards, 61.3%, 7 TD's/0 rushing TD's (totaling 7 TD's), 0 INT's. 2-3 as a starter.

 

-What is funny is, AR has the same amount of total TD's that Stroud has and a better record. Stroud just smokes him in passing Yards though.

 

-If a QB starts a game, he gets credited for a win or loss. No matter how long he is in. Per: NFL. 

[DougDew]

3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

that Stroud has and a better record.

Do QBs get credited with how good or lousy their team's defense is?  I mean, they sit on the bench and drink water during that part of the game.

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Do QBs get credited with how good or lousy their team's defense is?  I mean, they sit on the bench and drink water during that part of the game.

Nope to answer your question. You know as well as I do though, pro football reference shows the QB's record as a starter with his stats and everyone in the NFL brings up. You weren't born yesterday. All I here is Brock Purdy is 10-0 as a starter, that is ok to most people, because he is came out of nowhere and is a great story, but if someone really likes a QB that has a losing record, it is not ok to bring that up to them it seems. 

[DougDew]

26 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Nope to answer your question. You know as well as I do though, pro football reference shows the QB's record as a starter with his stats and everyone in the NFL brings up. You weren't born yesterday. All I here is Brock Purdy is 10-0 as a starter, that is ok to most people, because he is came out of nowhere and is a great story, but if someone really likes a QB that has a losing record, it is not ok to bring that up to them it seems. 

I agree.  I think pro football reference brings it up because many folks use shallow evidence for their position when they engage in some sort of persistent debate.  If you think its a bogus stat, I'm curious as to why you brought it up.

[Moosejawcolt]

29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I agree.  I think pro football reference brings it up because many folks use shallow evidence for their position when they engage in some sort of persistent debate.  If you think its a bogus stat, I'm curious as to why you brought it up.

It's a long season. People will jump all over Frank and with an 0 and 5 start, it will justify their belief that he was the problem. What people wil always leave out is the fact that he has started every season with a new qb. U take all the hall of fame coaches and how many of them would have been successful given those circumstnsces? I wouldn't be surprised to see Carolina gets better as the year goes on. I mean u gotta as u haven't won a game yet lol.

[DougDew]

4 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

It's a long season. People will jump all over Frank and with an 0 and 5 start, it will justify their belief that he was the problem. What people wil always leave out is the fact that he has started every season with a new qb. U take all the hall of fame coaches and how many of them would have been successful given those circumstnsces? I wouldn't be surprised to see Carolina gets better as the year goes on. I mean u gotta as u haven't won a game yet lol.

All three previous QBs are not good enough to be the NFL anymore.  So its not just different QBs, its at least two bad QBs and one that was limited (Rivers).  Young does not appear to be talented enough to have warranted a trade up from 9 to 1...especially with Stroud coming out too.

[Moosejawcolt]

12 minutes ago, DougDew said:

All three previous QBs are not good enough to be the NFL anymore.  So its not just different QBs, its at least two bad QBs and one that was limited (Rivers).  Young does not appear to be talented enough to have warranted a trade up from 9 to 1...especially with Stroud coming out too.

And u wil never convince me that Young was Frank's favorite qb coming out. Way to small

[Superman]

A week ago, the Panthers' leading pass catcher was Terrace Marshall with 9 catches. He's a third year player, former 2nd round draft pick, who hasn't quite caught on in their offense so far. Last week was probably the best game of his career so far. 

 

He didn't play a single down yesterday.

 

Reich was asked about it after the game. His response: 

Quote

 

He should’ve played. He should’ve played some. I wish he had gotten in there a little bit more. That’s my fault. I need to make sure, after the week he had the week before with the nine catches and got a little momentum going, that he and I had a conversation....

So that was poor communication by me. I wanted to make sure that our guys knew to kinda make sure he had some playing time and that there would be opportunities. So that was my fault....

I did not do a good job of telling our coaches, ‘Hey, this is what I would like to see. And just defaulted to what we were doing before he got hurt.

 

 

Either he's completely out of his depth, or he's just falling on the sword in front of the media. And neither is good. I think Reich constantly took the blame for player mistakes when he was here, and while I understand not throwing your players under the bus, you also don't have to try to protect them by throwing yourself under the bus. 

 

But then, this is the same guy who said last week he called a play specifically for a WR who wasn't even on the field.

[NewColtsFan]

7 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

And u wil never convince me that Young was Frank's favorite qb coming out. Way to small

 

FWIW:   Last year, there was a poll of NFL GM’s as to who was the best QB in the draft.    Young was the clear winner.   His lack of size didn’t scare off many execs.  
 

Just saying….   

[Moosejawcolt]

30 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

FWIW:   Last year, there was a poll of NFL GM’s as to who was the best QB in the draft.    Young was the clear winner.   His lack of size didn’t scare off many execs.  
 

Just saying….   

I don't disagree on that. My personally,  I would never take a qb that size.

[DougDew]

12 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I don't disagree on that. My personally,  I would never take a qb that size.

The point is being misdirected to focus only on size.  Young does not seem to possess any elite physical trait to make up for his lack of height.  He's not particularly strong, not a rocket arm to throw the deep out, not NFL elite (but maybe college elite) footspeed and elusiveness, and I don't think he has elite accuracy.  His height alone isn't the issue.  The whole physical package is kinda meh-to-yuck.

[chad72]

Josh Allen keeps showing us that the rocket arm means little without the accuracy and reduction of turnovers. Mahomes and Reid remind us why Brady won those SBs with timely offense and good defense with a lot of no name WRs, with an accurate QB.

Actually the Bengals are like the Peyton Manning Colts with top notch WRs, except Lou Anurumo’s D is so much better than what Dungy implemented here.

 

The way to win is still from spreading it around in the passing game with just timely running that will have the lanes necessary only if they respect your passing. I’m hoping that’s the approach they take with AR.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

 

He looks miserable. By Frank's tone it sounds like to me that Irsay didn't engage much, and this owner does a lot.

[Colt.45]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

He looks miserable. By Frank's tone it sounds like to me that Irsay didn't engage much, and this owner does a lot.

Jim Irsay is a hands-off owner for the most part. He knows more about the sport than any of the other owners yet lets his guys do their thing.

 

Tepper? I remember watching All or Nothing in 2019, shortly after Tepper bought the team, and even back then it was clear he was going to be hands-on. I dont feel sorry for Frank because if I knew this, there's no way he didnt'. Dude looks exhausted.

[chad72]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

He looks miserable. By Frank's tone it sounds like to me that Irsay didn't engage much, and this owner does a lot.

 

Well, this is what happens if you sell the farm AND throw in D J Moore, that you could have used for a rookie QB. There is a reason Ballard didn't engage with the Bears. Ballard is DEFINITELY re-signing Pittman.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

Jim Irsay is a hands-off owner for the most part. He knows more about the sport than any of the other owners yet lets his guys do their thing.

 

Tepper? I remember watching All or Nothing in 2019, shortly after Tepper bought the team, and even back then it was clear he was going to be hands-on. I dont feel sorry for Frank because if I knew this, there's no way he didnt'. Dude looks exhausted.

Frank looks like he needs a vacation. He may step down if he keeps losing?

[Colt.45]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Frank looks like he needs a vacation. He may step down if he keeps losing?

He'll probably be fired before he gets the chance to step down if things continue at this rate. 

[chad72]

9 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

He'll probably be fired before he gets the chance to step down if things continue at this rate. 

 

I have no doubt in my mind Tepper won't be as patient as Jim Irsay was. But he needs to give a young QB some stability, not mess with the continuity, in general.

[DougDew]

8 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

He'll probably be fired before he gets the chance to step down if things continue at this rate. 

He'd be an easy scapegoat for the meddler.  Not that CAR/Young couldn't benefit from a more modern offense.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

He'd be an easy scapegoat for the meddler.  Not that CAR/Young couldn't benefit from a more modern offense.  

Imagine firing two coaches in two years. Lol

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

I have no doubt in my mind Tepper won't be as patient as Jim Irsay was. But he needs to give a young QB some stability, not mess with the continuity, in general.

Part of Young's struggles could very well being in that organization. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I don’t understand why panthers thought it was a good idea to hire someone who just got fired.

 

On a side note Steichen mentioned he told panthers he didn’t want the job there. Told them he was taking colts job. Wonder if all this owner meddling turned him off.

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

The point is being misdirected to focus only on size.  Young does not seem to possess any elite physical trait to make up for his lack of height.  He's not particularly strong, not a rocket arm to throw the deep out, not NFL elite (but maybe college elite) footspeed and elusiveness, and I don't think he has elite accuracy.  His height alone isn't the issue.  The whole physical package is kinda meh-to-yuck.

agreed. I had made those points before the draft. I said back then that the only way  I would have considered taking  him at number one is if he ran a  4.3,  had a rocket arm and was able to jump tall buildings!!

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

I don’t understand why panthers thought it was a good idea to hire someone who just got fired.

 

On a side note Steichen mentioned he told panthers he didn’t want the job there. Told them he was taking colts job. Wonder if all this owner meddling turned him off.

After talking to Irsay, Shane probably picked up on that Irsay is a fair owner and won't meddle too much. Shane is pretty smart. He knew Irsay has been around forever as well and has won a lot.