Training camp day one 7/26

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, w87r said:

Joe Burrow went down in camp today. Hope it's nothing serious.

 

 

 

You beat me too it, I just seen it. He pulled up lame bigtime. I hope he is ok. That didn't look good being a non contact injury.

[w87r]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You beat me too it, I just seen it. He pulled up lame bigtime. I hope he is ok. That didn't look good being a non contact injury.

Yeah, 2 things came to mind.

 

1. Achilles - worst case

2. Calf Strain

 

 

Didn't seem like a knee to me.

[w87r]

Anyone else ready for practice day 2 to begin?

 

I know I'm ready to move on from a ruined day 1 and then off day.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, w87r said:

Yeah, 2 things came to mind.

 

1. Achilles - worst case

2. Calf Strain

 

 

Didn't seem like a knee to me.

I was thinking the same thing, I hope that isn't an Achilles. 

[John Hammonds]

1 minute ago, w87r said:

Anyone else ready for practice day 2 to begin?

 

I know I'm ready to move on from a ruined day 1 and then off day.

Yeah.  Me too.

[stitches]

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

7 minutes ago, w87r said:

Joe Burrow went down in camp today. Hope it's nothing serious.

 

 

 

Right now they say it’s a calf strain. Hopefully that all it is. It would be horrific to tear a Achilles right before you sign your big contract.

[Nickster]

20 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Everyone says they won’t right up until decision time, and then they typically play.   They’re bluffing.   
 

Do I know for certain Taylor will play?   No.  But he’s a good kid, a smart kid, a character kid.   So I believe he’ll play.  

Most likely he will play I agree.  Most of em do.  
 

But what does good, smart, and character have to do with it?  Dude was a philosophy major and has a high IQ.  Playing NFL RB for a living is arguably pretty dumb.

 

One could posit that a strong show of character would involve standing with his fellow RB brothers and holding out so that the injustice of RB pay will peaceably but forcefully corrected.

 

One could argue that it would be good to honor a contract one has signed.

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Somewhat to some players but when we have great players, I just feel like they should be re-signed to decent deals. JT has been a great player for this franchise and he is young.

He’s young as the crow flies but not young for an NFL RB.  They average 2.57 years in The League.

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Am I reading this right?

 

You think having a RB like Jonathan Taylor doesn’t raise the ceiling of your teams offense?    Really?

 

You think he didn’t in 2020?    Or 21?

 

Im taking money out of the equation.   Strictly on talent.   
 

Id be fine tagging JT for two years if need be and getting the best six years of his career.   The Colts can move on in 26. 

I’ll take a stab at this.

 

I emphatically do not think JT raised the ceiling in 2020 at all.  He had very very poor numbers in making people miss and pedestrian broken tackle numbers with stellar run blocking giving him great yards before contract.  He ended up with respectable total yards with the caveat of having a close to 300 yard game at seasons end v. Terrible JAx or Tex team in a completely meaningless game that inflated his effective production.

 

in 2021 he had a stretch there when he and the oline had a tremendous impact during the middle 3rd of the ceiling.  He broke several long runs.  But before this spell his and his last 4 and the playoffs he wasn’t all that impactful IMO with the exception of that long game sealing run v the pats.  This part of the year he was really good and the line was mauling people in the run game.

 

last year he did not elevate the team.  So he raised the ceiling with some long runs for a period of time, but outside of that he was an RB and RBs that aren’t great route running pass catchers just don’t seem to be all that impactful in todays NFL.

 

 

 

[Nickster]

47 minutes ago, w87r said:

Yeah, 2 things came to mind.

 

1. Achilles - worst case

2. Calf Strain

 

 

Didn't seem like a knee to me.

Calf strain can be code for Achilles.  It’s like until a baseball team admits a player has to have Tommy John, they call it elbow tightness.

[ADnum1]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Everyone says they won’t right up until decision time, and then they typically play.   They’re bluffing.   
 

Do I know for certain Taylor will play?   No.  But he’s a good kid, a smart kid, a character kid.   So I believe he’ll play.  

He might play he might not but sometimes management caves too.

 

I know this happened with Melvin Gordon of the Chargers.  He held out the first 4 games of the 2019 season and came back for the rest of the season to accrue his final season towards free agency.

 

Melvin Gordon Says He Regrets 2019 Holdout With Chargers

After missing the entire preseason and the first four games of the regular season, Gordon never got a new deal in 2019 and Los Angeles let him walk in free agency this offseason.

 

"I probably would come back," Gordon said, per NFL.com. "Obviously, those are games I can't get back. I started out slow and being able to catch my stride toward the end of the season, but then it's too late. I would say more so for my legacy and what I can do for a career as a player more so than anything else."

 

Entering the final year of his rookie deal in 2019, Gordon sought a new contract but passed on the deal the Chargers offered him for around $10 million per season. During his absence, Austin Ekeler developed into a key member of the Chargers' backfield, and once Gordon returned he recorded a career-low 612 rushing yards with just nine touchdowns. He also added only 296 receiving yards, his lowest total since his rookie season.

Los Angeles went on to sign Ekeler to a four-year, $24.5 million deal in early March, while Gordon agreed to a two-year, $16 million deal with Denver last week.

 

Gordon said he felt people started criticizing his talent during his holdout, but he intends to prove them wrong this season.

"A lot of people were saying, 'Oh, he's an average back, he's not this, he's not that,'" he said. "I'm going to take that and I'm going to use it as fuel, because I know what type of player I am, and I want to show that. I want to show that, and I am going to show that. I'm going to show everybody that I'm better than just average."

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/03/27/melvin-gordon-regrets-holdout-chargers-deal

[Moosejawcolt]

19 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

The idea that he’s an incomplete back is your opinion.   That’s the truth.  

So u think he is elite in pass protection and pass catching? He wants elite money and he is not. He was below average in protection and an average pass catcher. He is a throw back running back. To garner elite money at the rb position, he needs to be in the mold of McAfferey and he is not. I believe if he was a say McAfferey, he would have an extension. People are forgetting he is coming off an injury and under contract. No and  it play out til end of the year.

[Archer]

3 hours ago, ProblChld32 said:

He’s played well on the outside when the opportunity arose. Height is not the end all be all. Denzel Ward who is considered a top 10 Corner in this league is 5’11 Rodgers is 5’10. Kenny Moore was slated to start at Nickel no way Rodgers wins that role over Kenny. Now I will say that I do think that Colts had all the intentions of letting Moore play out his contract and letting him hit FA at seasons end and sliding Rodgers into the Slot role the following season. But with the recent suspension idk how that will all pan out come the offseason.

I don’t disagree with you.  He’s surprised me with how well he’s played on the outside.  But we just drafted three long-armed QBs, showing me that CB might be looking for some lengthier guys on the outside.  So, a move to the inside for Rodgers seemed likely…

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, Solid84 said:

As an example I did a post in the “Players report to camp 7/25 and Ballard presser” thread comparing Miles Sanders ‘22 to JT’s “MVP” ‘21 season:

 

TL;DR - If you normalize for carries JT gives us 188 more yards and 4 more TDs over a season for twice the pay. That’s why I feel top tier RBs just aren’t worth it. 

I literally wrote the sentence “I’m taking money out of the equation.”

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Sure, a RB like Taylor can take your offense from below average to average. That's not really the kind of change I'm talking about, though.

 

Taylor was pretty good in 2020, and he was great in 2021. Our offense was average in both seasons. In 2020, 9th in points scored (451), 10th in yards, 9th in yards/play, 11th in rushing yards, 15th in yards/rush. In 2021 -- the season in which Taylor really went off -- we were 9th in points scored (451, again), 16th in yards, 16th in yards/play, 2nd in rushing yards, 1st in yards/rush. So with Taylor being the best/most productive back in the league in 2021, and being critically important to our team, the offense was actually worse overall. 

 

The truth is that you need good QB play to have a good offense. Once you have good QB, sure, you can get a boost from having a really good RB, but that boost is a luxury, not a necessity. And it's probably not worth the premium cost, compared with replacement level players.

 

Like I said, if a team is goin to be hardline about it, you can use replacement+ level backs to get 75-80% of the production of a star level back. And that's probably good enough to have a good offense, if you have good QB play. And if you don't have good QB play, it doesn't really matter how good your RB is, and it's probably a misuse of resources to pay premium money for the position.

In 2020 the Colts were 11-5.  
 

In 2021 the Colts were 9-8.  
 

I think the idea that JT wasn’t a big part of both seasons collapses under its own weight.    I think you’ve badly over-thought this.   
 

Now if you factor in salary, then that changes the discussion and my position would be closer to what I’ve seen you post.  
 

But on talent alone, I think the stats you used give stat arguments a bad name.  
 

Sorry, a rare disagreement for you and me. 

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, Nickster said:

Most likely he will play I agree.  Most of em do.  
 

But what does good, smart, and character have to do with it?  Dude was a philosophy major and has a high IQ.  Playing NFL RB for a living is arguably pretty dumb.

 

One could posit that a strong show of character would involve standing with his fellow RB brothers and holding out so that the injustice of RB pay will peaceably but forcefully corrected.

 

One could argue that it would be good to honor a contract one has signed.

My points about good, smart and character was a response that Taylor might not play under the tag.   I was explaining that I didn’t see that happening with Taylor.   And for the record, Taylor hasn’t NOT honored his contract.   He might.   But it hasn’t happened yet. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

So u think he is elite in pass protection and pass catching? He wants elite money and he is not. He was below average in protection and an average pass catcher. He is a throw back running back. To garner elite money at the rb position, he needs to be in the mold of McAfferey and he is not. I believe if he was a say McAfferey, he would have an extension. People are forgetting he is coming off an injury and under contract. No and  it play out til end of the year.

Using your words…. 
 

There are apparently only two rankings… 

 

Elite and not-elite.   

Taylor is an elite running back.   And he’s acceptable in every other category.   People who do this for a living judge Taylor much much higher than you and others here.  
 

No one here is saying Taylor deserves market setting money.   People are slotting JT roughly around 3rd.   Below McCaffrey and Kamara money ($16m) but above the next group which is roughly 12-12.5m per.  There’s a gap there.   Taylor supports seem willing to offer around $13m per.   And I think all have said if JT won’t accept that, then we’d be fine tagging Taylor twice. 
 

You, on the other hand, recently posted that you’d offer $6.5m.   Why waste time offering an insult that would be instantly rejected.   You seem to think Taylor and Sanders are interchangeable.   I don’t. 
 

We see this completely different. 

[Superman]

12 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

In 2020 the Colts were 11-5.  
 

In 2021 the Colts were 9-8.  
 

I think the idea that JT wasn’t a big part of both seasons collapses under its own weight.    I think you’ve badly over-thought this.   
 

Now if you factor in salary, then that changes the discussion and my position would be closer to what I’ve seen you post.  
 

But on talent alone, I think the stats you used give stat arguments a bad name.  
 

Sorry, a rare disagreement for you and me. 

 

Maybe you've under-thought it...

 

From 2020 to 2021, JT went from good to great, and the offense overall got worse, statistically.

 

If, in the season that JT was more productive, the Colts' record was worse, and the offense was overall worse, then doesn't that undermine the idea that a great RB elevates the offense? 

 

What stats should we use to discuss offensive production, ranking, etc.? Do we need to have a completely nuanced conversation and go down every rabbit hole to conclude what we already know -- that the Colts offense was objectively worse in 2021 than it was in 2020? And once we accept that obvious fact, then we can discuss the major difference for the offense, which was the quality of the QBing. Which gets back to the earlier point, that the main elevating factor for any offense is the QB play, not the quality of the RB.

 

I didn't claim that JT wasn't a big part of either season. The question is about the extent to which a great RB elevates your offense, and ultimately, whether it's worth the cost of paying him on a second contract. In a vacuum, yes, I'd love to have the very best RB possible, and the same would be true of every position on the team. But in reality, there is a cost consideration, and that's why we're discussing the "value" of a RB to a good offense, so it's pointless to try to separate the two. Is it cost effective to pay a RB top tier money when you can effectively replace 75-80% of his production at 15-20% of the cost? When we get down to it, the answer is probably strong "no." 

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, Nickster said:

I’ll take a stab at this.

 

I emphatically do not think JT raised the ceiling in 2020 at all.  He had very very poor numbers in making people miss and pedestrian broken tackle numbers with stellar run blocking giving him great yards before contract.  He ended up with respectable total yards with the caveat of having a close to 300 yard game at seasons end v. Terrible JAx or Tex team in a completely meaningless game that inflated his effective production.

 

in 2021 he had a stretch there when he and the oline had a tremendous impact during the middle 3rd of the ceiling.  He broke several long runs.  But before this spell his and his last 4 and the playoffs he wasn’t all that impactful IMO with the exception of that long game sealing run v the pats.  This part of the year he was really good and the line was mauling people in the run game.

 

last year he did not elevate the team.  So he raised the ceiling with some long runs for a period of time, but outside of that he was an RB and RBs that aren’t great route running pass catchers just don’t seem to be all that impactful in todays NFL.

 

 

 

Last year, Taylor had not one, but two ankle sprains, one of which was a high ankle sprain which needed surgery and which you conveniently forget to mention.   And he was mostly running behind a line which was brutally bad.  Again, no mention of that by you.   So your characterization of Taylor in 22 is that it was just another year and you blame him for not lifting the offense.   
 

In 21, Taylor led all RBs in most runs if 10 or more yards…. Most over 20, most over 30, most over 40, most over 50, most over 60 and most over 70.   But you characterize his season as a few long runs in the middle third of the season.   The middle third was 8-2 for the Colts, which included wins over Buffalo where the Colts threw only 12 passes and a win over New England where the Colts threw only 11 times.   The Colts had a poor passing game, Taylor was the primary weapon and you attempt to downplay him.  
 

His rookie season, you could take nearly 200 yards off his last game and he’d still have a 1,000 yard season.   Marlon Mack didn’t reach 1,000 yards until his second season.   He only had a few hundred as a rook.  
 

So we see Taylor in almost opposite terms.  

[NewColtsFan]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Maybe you've under-thought it...

 

From 2020 to 2021, JT went from good to great, and the offense overall got worse, statistically.

 

If, in the season that JT was more productive, the Colts' record was worse, and the offense was overall worse, then doesn't that undermine the idea that a great RB elevates the offense? 

 

What stats should we use to discuss offensive production, ranking, etc.? Do we need to have a completely nuanced conversation and go down every rabbit hole to conclude what we already know -- that the Colts offense was objectively worse in 2021 than it was in 2020? And once we accept that obvious fact, then we can discuss the major difference for the offense, which was the quality of the QBing. Which gets back to the earlier point, that the main elevating factor for any offense is the QB play, not the quality of the RB.

 

I didn't claim that JT wasn't a big part of either season. The question is about the extent to which a great RB elevates your offense, and ultimately, whether it's worth the cost of paying him on a second contract. In a vacuum, yes, I'd love to have the very best RB possible, and the same would be true of every position on the team. But in reality, there is a cost consideration, and that's why we're discussing the "value" of a RB to a good offense, so it's pointless to try to separate the two. Is it cost effective to pay a RB top tier money when you can effectively replace 75-80% of his production at 15-20% of the cost? When we get down to it, the answer is probably strong "no." 

The reason the offense didn’t get better had nothing to do with Taylor.   It had to do with QB play.   It had to do with the play of the offensive line. 
 

I think your argument falls under the old saying….    Lies, damn lies, and statistics.  
 

This feels like an intellectual argument. Can you make the argument that Taylor isn’t as valuable as one might think?   Yes, you can.   I just feel like the things you point to have a counter-argument.  

[NewColtsFan]

30 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Maybe you've under-thought it...

 

From 2020 to 2021, JT went from good to great, and the offense overall got worse, statistically.

 

If, in the season that JT was more productive, the Colts' record was worse, and the offense was overall worse, then doesn't that undermine the idea that a great RB elevates the offense? 

 

What stats should we use to discuss offensive production, ranking, etc.? Do we need to have a completely nuanced conversation and go down every rabbit hole to conclude what we already know -- that the Colts offense was objectively worse in 2021 than it was in 2020? And once we accept that obvious fact, then we can discuss the major difference for the offense, which was the quality of the QBing. Which gets back to the earlier point, that the main elevating factor for any offense is the QB play, not the quality of the RB.

 

I didn't claim that JT wasn't a big part of either season. The question is about the extent to which a great RB elevates your offense, and ultimately, whether it's worth the cost of paying him on a second contract. In a vacuum, yes, I'd love to have the very best RB possible, and the same would be true of every position on the team. But in reality, there is a cost consideration, and that's why we're discussing the "value" of a RB to a good offense, so it's pointless to try to separate the two. Is it cost effective to pay a RB top tier money when you can effectively replace 75-80% of his production at 15-20% of the cost? When we get down to it, the answer is probably strong "no." 

FWIW:  

 

I’ve re-read this post.   And I’m a little puzzled.   As you know I try to read your posts.   I believe in the last few weeks you tossed around numbers for Taylor like 3/40 and 3/36 and Tag x2.   
 

Interesting, because those are my numbers too.    
 

Yet your last sentence is an argument for NOT paying Taylor at all.   Doesn’t that feel like an intellectual argument position to take?   What’s the point of expressing you’d like to keep him and pay him, yet sum up by saying the stats say the best decision is let him go.   (I’m assuming after this season?).  

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

My points about good, smart and character was a response that Taylor might not play under the tag.   I was explaining that I didn’t see that happening with Taylor.   And for the record, Taylor hasn’t NOT honored his contract.   He might.   But it hasn’t happened yet. 

I still don’t get what good smart and character has to do with anything.

 

that honor contract thing doesn’t mean anything in this instance IMO.  There isn’t much to negotiate for rookies in round 2.  That is predetermined and JT has no power to negotiate.

 

A 2nd could be a different story.  Because the player has power.  But other than guaranteed dollars the club holds the power to cut , so I don’t look at it as a question of ethics like a contract between individuals with negotiating latitude.  That’s just me though.

 

I don’t believe that what is happening with Taylor’s fight for dollars is an ethical question.  And it’s independent of goodness, smartness, and character.

 

 

 

[Dingus McGirt]

6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Seems like you're being melodramatic to make a point.

 

Here's the harsh, heartless way that a team would handle RBs if they wanted to be fully cutthroat about it. Draft a RB in the top 75 every two years, run them into the ground, and let them walk when they hit free agency. Every once in a while, if you hit on a star level player, trade him after Year 3. The recent history of RBs on second contracts is that the team doesn't get a return for their money, and the player doesn't last to the end of the contract. So don't play in that sandbox at all. Draft young backs, churn and burn, and don't spend a bunch of cap space trying to keep them.

 

Now, I like JT. I'd be okay with the Colts paying a premium to keep him for the next two or three years, because I think he's that good. But having a player like him at RB is a luxury, at best, and probably doesn't raise the ceiling of your team's offense. And if I can get 75-80% of JT's production for 15-20% of the cost, strategically, it makes more sense to replace him than it does to pay him like a star RB on a second contract.

Moneyball.

[Nickster]

52 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Last year, Taylor had not one, but two ankle sprains, one of which was a high ankle sprain which needed surgery and which you conveniently forget to mention.   And he was mostly running behind a line which was brutally bad.  Again, no mention of that by you.   So your characterization of Taylor in 22 is that it was just another year and you blame him for not lifting the offense.   
 

 

You asked about his impact.  He was not impactful last year.

52 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

In 21, Taylor led all RBs in most runs if 10 or more yards…. Most over 20, most over 30, most over 40, most over 50, most over 60 and most over 70.   But you characterize his season as a few long runs in the middle third of the season.   The middle third was 8-2 for the Colts, which included wins over Buffalo where the Colts threw only 12 passes and a win over New England where the Colts threw only 11 times.   The Colts had a poor passing game, Taylor was the primary weapon and you attempt to downplay him.  

 

 

see @Superman post above about the impact the effective level of impact. Ditto.

52 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

His rookie season, you could take nearly 200 yards off his last game and he’d still have a 1,000 yard season.   Marlon Mack didn’t reach 1,000 yards until his second season.   He only had a few hundred as a rook.  
 

So we see Taylor in almost opposite terms.  

I am talking about running backs.  They are not judged to be worth big investment my THE ENTIRE LEAGUE.  Maybe petition the league?

 

Look Dude you and I have seen the RB position differently for 3 years and well buddy, it looks like you and a few others here have come down on the side that is contrary to EVERY TEAM IN THE NFL.  
 

Y’all might be right though .

 

it was never personal or emotional for me but the writing was on the wall about the value of RBs and their impact.

[dw49]

55 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

The reason the offense didn’t get better had nothing to do with Taylor.   It had to do with QB play.   It had to do with the play of the offensive line. 
 

I think your argument falls under the old saying….    Lies, damn lies, and statistics.  
 

This feels like an intellectual argument. Can you make the argument that Taylor isn’t as valuable as one might think?   Yes, you can.   I just feel like the things you point to have a counter-argument.  

 

Pay the man. Taylor in 2021 was no doubt the best at running the football.in the NFL. Led the league in about every category. Long runs , yardage after contact plus way more yards than his competition.. He was hurt in 2022 and still was pretty good. He played with 2 horrible QB's and the O line regressed. Those that say he didn't elevate the offense beyond what it was the year before , bewilder me a bit.

 

Reminds me of what Branch Rickey told Ralph Kinder in 1952. Kiner after leading the league for the 7th straight time asked the Pirates GM Brach Rickey for a raise. Brach Rickey asked ,"where did we finish last year." Kiner replied "last." Ricky then said "well , we can finish last without you" and refused the request for a raise. It's called a "rabbit hole."  

 

So I pretty much agree with your side of the argument and yes Superman is correct when he states a team cannot win with bad QB play. BUT... why should Taylor be punished for the Colts bringing in horrible QB's ? How is say Pittman worth 20 million a year and Taylor not woth 12-13 ? I guess it come down to some of us think we can replace Taylor with some 3rd round rookie. Or some will point to the short "lives" of RBs in the NFL. I'm not going to research it but IMO , the really good backs certainly can last 7-8 years. Taylor takes care of his body and other than the high ankle sprain has held up well.

[Moosejawcolt]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Using your words…. 
 

There are apparently only two rankings… 

 

Elite and not-elite.   

Taylor is an elite running back.   And he’s acceptable in every other category.   People who do this for a living judge Taylor much much higher than you and others here.  
 

No one here is saying Taylor deserves market setting money.   People are slotting JT roughly around 3rd.   Below McCaffrey and Kamara money ($16m) but above the next group which is roughly 12-12.5m per.  There’s a gap there.   Taylor supports seem willing to offer around $13m per.   And I think all have said if JT won’t accept that, then we’d be fine tagging Taylor twice. 
 

You, on the other hand, recently posted that you’d offer $6.5m.   Why waste time offering an insult that would be instantly rejected.   You seem to think Taylor and Sanders are interchangeable.   I don’t. 
 

We see this completely different. 

I don't think ever said 6.5 and it was probably a misprint on my behalf.  Everyone here seems to think JT is all that. He is replaceable in today's NFL and the way it operates.

[NewColtsFan]

3 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I don't think ever said 6.5 and it was probably a misprint on my behalf.  Everyone here seems to think JT is all that. He is replaceable in today's NFL and the way it operates.

I was guessing the $6.5 reference was connected to what Sanders received from Carolina. 
 

If by replaceable, you’re factoring in salary,  that wouldn’t happen this year with JT only making $4.3m.     The discussion would come in 24 and 25 when the Colts could use the Tag.   But note, that a number of teams have tagged their top RB,  (Barkley, Jacobs and one other I believe?)  so some NFL teams think Tagging a top RB is still a good idea.  

I don’t think this is as cut and dry as you seem to think it is.   

[colts89]

Taylor had a season where he had the 22nd most rushing yards of all time and he's still only 24. He was injured last year, but that was the only injury he's ever had in his entire football career since high school. 

 

Maybe think twice about giving RBs a second contract if they've proven to just be pretty good.But I feel it should be a no brainer to at least offer JT an upper tier RB contract, which the Colts apparently haven't done yet. If he wants more than CMC, then I understand the hesitation more.

[NewColtsFan]

7 hours ago, Nickster said:

I still don’t get what good smart and character has to do with anything.

 

that honor contract thing doesn’t mean anything in this instance IMO.  There isn’t much to negotiate for rookies in round 2.  That is predetermined and JT has no power to negotiate.

 

A 2nd could be a different story.  Because the player has power.  But other than guaranteed dollars the club holds the power to cut , so I don’t look at it as a question of ethics like a contract between individuals with negotiating latitude.  That’s just me though.

 

I don’t believe that what is happening with Taylor’s fight for dollars is an ethical question.  And it’s independent of goodness, smartness, and character.

 

 

 

Again, I was responding to a poster who floated the possibility that Taylor might sit out rather than accept a Tag or Two.   I was explaining that good, smart, character kids typically don’t make bad career choices.  
 

Saquan Barkley just did a 180 and negotiated a one year deal.  SB is a good smart high character kid.  No one ever thought of Leveon Bell in those terms.  And Bell ruined his career with a long holdout.   I don’t see JT making such a mistake.   Good, smart, character kids make more pragmatic choices like Barkley just did.     
 

Hope that clarifies.  

[NewColtsFan]

7 hours ago, Nickster said:

 

You asked about his impact.  He was not impactful last year.

 

see @Superman post above about the impact the effective level of impact. Ditto.

I am talking about running backs.  They are not judged to be worth big investment my THE ENTIRE LEAGUE.  Maybe petition the league?

 

Look Dude you and I have seen the RB position differently for 3 years and well buddy, it looks like you and a few others here have come down on the side that is contrary to EVERY TEAM IN THE NFL.  
 

Y’all might be right though .

 

it was never personal or emotional for me but the writing was on the wall about the value of RBs and their impact.

I don’t think you even know my position even though I’ve posted it all over this thread.   
 

1.   I’ve repeatedly said in this thread and this off-season that if the Colts can’t come to terms, I’m fine if the Colts tag him for two years and move on in 26. 
 

2.   I just posted in the last 36 hours that the days of 5-year contracts for RBs for any team are over.   And I added that a 4-year is unlikely but possible but only if you can make the dead cap hit in Y4 nearly zero.  
 

3.   I’ve said most RBs will likely be signed to second contracts of 2-3 years.   
 

4.   I’ve also said that I’m fine if the Colts sign Taylor to a 3-year deal for decent money.   3/40.   The key as always are the guarantees.   But the Colts have some flexibility with Richardson’s rookie contract and the salary cap going way up for several years.  
 

5.   It was revealed late tonight that the Colts have yet to offer Taylor an official contract.   Looks like Irsay is playing hardball. 
 

Hope this clarifies my position. 

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Again, I was responding to a poster who floated the possibility that Taylor might sit out rather than accept a Tag or Two.   I was explaining that good, smart, character kids typically don’t make bad career choices.  
 

Saquan Barkley just did a 180 and negotiated a one year deal.  SB is a good smart high character kid.  No one ever thought of Leveon Bell in those terms.  And Bell ruined his career with a long holdout.   I don’t see JT making such a mistake.   Good, smart, character kids make more pragmatic choices like Barkley just did.     
 

Hope that clarifies.  

 

Leveon Bell made out like a bandit NCF.  He fleeced NYJ for 27 mill guaranteed.  

 

Who’s the smart one?  I am baffled by the Bell argument.  He got paid way above his value.

 

Leveon Bell =

 

[w87r]

15 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Leveon Bell made out like a bandit NCF.  He fleeced NYJ for 27 mill guaranteed.  

 

Who’s the smart one?  I am baffled by the Bell argument.  He got paid way above his value.

 

Leveon Bell =

 

Well he regretted it.

 

https://fansided.com/2022/07/14/leveon-bell-regrets-2018-steelers-season/

 

[Nickster]

15 minutes ago, w87r said:

Well he regretted it.

 

https://fansided.com/2022/07/14/leveon-bell-regrets-2018-steelers-season/

 

Even though he regrets it Eight Seven, I’d bet dollars to donuts that there have been backs since then and maybe JT or some other guys now who look at the scrill he got and consider his method.

 

I don’t think it will work this time with the market value of RBs, but I bet some of them consider how his deal transpired.

[w87r]

57 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Even though he regrets it Eight Seven, I’d bet dollars to donuts that there have been backs since then and maybe JT or some other guys now who look at the scrill he got and consider his method.

 

I don’t think it will work this time with the market value of RBs, but I bet some of them consider how his deal transpired.

RBs are considering all kinds of options.

 

I will say that Bell was going to get paid regardless.

 

 

He also lost $14.544m for sitting out 2018.

 

So essentially that $27m covered his sit out season(2018) and 2019 at $13.5m a season.

 

But cost him his career, I don't think any RB is going to look at this example and be like, that's what I'm going to do right there.

[Nickster]

29 minutes ago, w87r said:

RBs are considering all kinds of options.

 

I will say that Bell was going to get paid regardless.

 

 

 

He wasn’t going to have guaranteed money beyond the one year though.

 

He was 29, ancient by RB standards.

 

29 minutes ago, w87r said:

He also lost $14.544m for sitting out the 2018.

 

So essentially that $27m covered his sit out season(2018) and 2019 at $13.5m a season.

 

But cost him his career, I don't think any RB is going to look at this example and be like, that's what I'm going to do right there.

His ineffective play led to his “ruined caree”.  He had another 14 mill on that 2019 deal and just wasn’t good enough to earn it.  Then after he was cut he had 2 or 3 opportunities to get paid with other teams and just wasn’t good enough.

 

How did the hold out ruin his career?

 

Now the way I remember it, LB probably hit the tweed a little too much.  He was rumored to have gotten out of shape, eating Funyuns and drinking Faygo all night playing XBox all night long and sleeping all day in his Momma’s basement.  Maybe this led to his ineffectiveness?  Maybe he was pretty washed after 412 touches in 2018?

Maybe LBs drop was a function these circumstances.

 

Perhaps LB should regret his work ethic during the hold out year rather than the hold out itself.  If he had been an effective player in 2020 or 2021 he would have earned more.  He could have been contributor on multiple SB champions with KC and TB .

 

But he wasn’t any good anymore.  JT or another back could arguably become stronger with taking a year off, treating his body with the utmost care according to the latest and greatest exercise and nutrition science and come back after a hold out rested up and better conditioned ready to have an extended career and earning potential window with the year off.

 

The hold out was not necessarily in and of itself the reason LBs career crapped out.

 

I suspect this was his issue.

 

 

Perhaps he should have hired a more effective cannabist to get him off the Indica and on a smooth Sativa strain?
 

 

[w87r]

Just now, Nickster said:

How did the hold out ruin his career?

Because he took a year off of football. Was never the same.

 

Grass isn't always greener, if he stayed in Pittsburgh, I think he plays another 3-4 years minimum.

 

11 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Perhaps LB should regret his work ethic during the hold out year rather than the hold out itself

Fair enough, but a symptom of the holdout it's self.

 

If he was out there playing in 2018, would of still been in peak shape, in 2019.

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

He wasn’t going to have guaranteed money beyond the one year though.

He got $12.5m more guaranteed than if he would of signed his franchise tag and played. A year later.

 

That $12.5m would of easily been made up and more. Literally could of signed tag and another 1yr deal after, for $12.5m and been in same boat.

 

Could of signed multiple year deal in 2019 with another $27m guaranteed because he would of been coming off another good season, if he didn't hold out.(He would of still got a similar deal in 2019, if he played 2018)

 

 

So his hold out at a minimum cost him $14.5m. 

[Nickster]

5 minutes ago, w87r said:

Because he took a year off of football. Was never the same.

 

Grass isn't always greener, if he stayed in Pittsburgh, I think he plays another 3-4 years minimum.

 

Fair enough, but a symptom of the holdout it's self.

 

but assuming LB was lazy, doesn’t mean JT will be.  
 

5 minutes ago, w87r said:

 

If he was out there playing in 2018, would of still been in peak shape, in 2019.

 

or beat to hell.

 

5 minutes ago, w87r said:

He got $12.5m more guaranteed than if he would of signed his franchise tag and played. A year later.

 

That $12.5m would of easily been made up and more. Literally could of signed tag and another 1yr deal after, for $12.5m and been in same boat.

 

Could of signed multiple year deal in 2019 with another $27m guaranteed because he would of been coming off another good season, if he didn't hold out.(He would of still got a similar deal in 2019, if he played 2018)

 

You’re assuming he would have been great in 2019, I’m not after 412 touches.  
 

5 minutes ago, w87r said:

 

 

So his hold out at a minimum cost him $14.5m. 

 

Or if he pkayed for the 14 mill and proved  ineffective in 2019 which would have tons of precedent with RBs often being much less effective the season after high usage seasons.

 

I don’t think you are considering LBs age and mileage when this was going down.  There have been few great backs around 30 and above ever in the history of the league.

[w87r]

18 hours ago, Superman said:

 

That's a fair point, the agent part could have been more specific.

Looks like it wasn't at all. I was wrong there.

 

 

Couldn't be directed towards Taylor's agent, if they haven't had any discussions on a new deal.

 

Which vibes with what Ballard said and it makes complete sense.

 

1. Coming off surgery and injury (prove your back)

2. New coach, new system (see the fit first)

 

 

I will say, they need to do the same with Pittman. Need to see how he fits as well.

[Dingus McGirt]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I was guessing the $6.5 reference was connected to what Sanders received from Carolina. 
 

If by replaceable, you’re factoring in salary,  that wouldn’t happen this year with JT only making $4.3m.     The discussion would come in 24 and 25 when the Colts could use the Tag.   But note, that a number of teams have tagged their top RB,  (Barkley, Jacobs and one other I believe?)  so some NFL teams think Tagging a top RB is still a good idea.  

I don’t think this is as cut and dry as you seem to think it is.   

Yes. “Only” 4.3 MILLION.