If Ballard trades up, which QB should he select?

[Stephen]

7 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

And it’s a horrible move trading up for a guy like Mac Jones. He’s not worth that high a pick at all. 

Agreed

[Stephen]

4 hours ago, stitches said:

My preferences right now go Wilson->Fields or Lance -> trade down/out -> Mac Jones 

 

I think all of the first 3 options would be great QB prospects to get and develop and I would cheer Ballard on if he decides to go get any of them(almost regardless of the price). They all are modern day QBs that can make plays not just in structure but out of structure and on the move too. And if we are not getting any of them, I would like us to trade down or out of the 1st round with the compensation being future picks that we can use next year to draft a QB. 

 

I can be talked into Mac Jones... but... I don't see high upside with him. I agree with Greg Cosell who said his ceiling is someone like Kirk Cousins... and I see the exact same thing. 

Trask or mac Jones 

[danlhart87]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

Not trading blackmon 

The fact that you would choose a Safety over a potential franchise QB is all I need to know. 

 

Sometimes you have to take that risk.

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Trask or mac Jones 

Trask is most likely a day 2 pick 

[Stephen]

1 minute ago, danlhart87 said:

The fact that you would choose a Safety over a potential franchise QB is all I need to know. 

 

Sometimes you have to take that risk.

Trask is most likely a day 2 pick 

So you think wentz would be good.  The damage  of him being  bad given his contract  could possibly  set the team back and get Ballard  and Reich  fired

[danlhart87]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

So you think wentz would be good.  The damage  of him being  bad given his contract  could possibly  set the team back and get Ballard  and Reich  fired

What are you even talking about 

I've never once supported getting Wentz

[Stephen]

4 minutes ago, danlhart87 said:

What are you even talking about 

I've never once supported getting Wentz

Yea we won't  need to trade Blackmon  to get mac jones. Meant to respond to someone  else about wentz

[Stephen]

12 minutes ago, danlhart87 said:

The fact that you would choose a Safety over a potential franchise QB is all I need to know. 

 

Sometimes you have to take that risk.

Trask is most likely a day 2 pick 

As far as Trask goes he is one few qbs to have good performance  versus Alabama  defense.  So I think he can be a steal

[danlhart87]

He tends to play very poorly at times. He had an awful performance against the Sooners.

[Moosejawcolt]

4 hours ago, Stephen said:

Trask or mac Jones 

If a 3rd option is a Big Mac. I will take the Big Mac

[Stephen]

3 hours ago, danlhart87 said:

He tends to play very poorly at times. He had an awful performance against the Sooners.

Against  the sooners he was missing  his top 3 wrs and his starting  te. Mac jones would have played bad in that circumstance  to.

[Archer]

12 hours ago, Stephen said:

Trask would be best. People are  to hung up on mobility 

I agree.  He has a story and character that Ballard and Reich are sure to love too...

[DougDew]

Trask.  NE will probably take him.

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Trask.  NE will probably take him.

Hope not

[funktacious2]

I could live with what it may take to get Wilson but Fields would be too much for me, Dawg.

 

Also they said he has "moxie". Niccce lol

[Defjamz26]

12 hours ago, Stephen said:

Against  the sooners he was missing  his top 3 wrs and his starting  te. Mac jones would have played bad in that circumstance  to.

Doesn’t excuse 3 first half interceptions.

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Doesn’t excuse 3 first half interceptions.

Interceptions happens to the best of QBs.

Brady just threw for three and still made the super bowl. 

Brady is 3-1 in games he threw 3 interceptions. 

Manning had 6 in one game against the Chargers in 2007.

Over reacting IMO. 

 

 

[Defjamz26]

22 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Interceptions happens to the best of QBs.

Brady just threw for three and still made the super bowl. 

Brady is 3-1 in games he threw 3 interceptions. 

Manning had 6 in one game against the Chargers in 2007.

Over reacting IMO. 

 

 

You’re missing the point. He threw 3 INTs in a half....actually he threw 3 INTs in the 1st quarter. Against a team from a conference that is known not to play any defense. 3 INTs in 1 quarter against a team with a mediocre defense is concerning. At least for a guy people say can start day 1.

[crazycolt1]

14 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

You’re missing the point. He threw 3 INTs in a half....actually he threw 3 INTs in the 1st quarter. Against a team from a conference that is known not to play any defense. 3 INTs in 1 quarter against a team with a mediocre defense is concerning. At least for a guy people say can start day 1.

I didn't miss any point. 

Interceptions happen. QBs are no different than anyone else. We all have good days and bad days. 

Those 3 interceptions are not going to effect his play in the NFL. 

[DownHillRunner]

On 2/4/2021 at 5:48 AM, Archer said:

Realistically, these guys are all out of reach.  We have a serious disadvantage at 21, compared to other teams that may want to trade up from earlier in the draft (like NE at 15 or SF at 12).  Not to mention the high # of QB-needy teams in the Top 10 (Jax, NYJ, Atl., Car., Den, and maybe even Det/Mia/Philly) - you’d have to offer a ton to get out in front of all that.  I’m more interested in analysis of the next tier - Jones and Trask.  What do we expect out of those two, and when is a fair place to draft them?

 

 

 

So you're telling me if Ballard offers #21 overall and a 2022 1st round pick and another pick that wouldn't be enough to trade into the top 10? If it comes down to either Trask or Jones Ballard should say no to both of them especially in the 1st round. I don't think either one of those guys are 1st round picks. From what I'm hearing, both are day two picks. If I can recall, back in 2017, the Chiefs traded up to number 10, selected Mahomes and they moved from number 27th.

[2006Coltsbestever]

20 hours ago, danlhart87 said:

What are you even talking about 

I've never once supported getting Wentz

Oh come on, you wanted Wentz this whole time 

[Moosejawcolt]

21 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

You’re missing the point. He threw 3 INTs in a half....actually he threw 3 INTs in the 1st quarter. Against a team from a conference that is known not to play any defense. 3 INTs in 1 quarter against a team with a mediocre defense is concerning. At least for a guy people say can start day 1.

Stay away from Trask. He is the exact opposite of Eason lol

[2006Coltsbestever]

Trey Lance

[Archer]

1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

You’re missing the point. He threw 3 INTs in a half....actually he threw 3 INTs in the 1st quarter. Against a team from a conference that is known not to play any defense. 3 INTs in 1 quarter against a team with a mediocre defense is concerning. At least for a guy people say can start day 1.

Yeah, y’know he played well enough to be a Heisman finalist in the OTHER games this year.  I’m not so sure many scouts would totally disregard a prospect bc of one bad quarter.  I doubt if the Colts drafted him they’d expect him to start this year.  They’d find a veteran option...

[Archer]

1 hour ago, DownHillRunner said:

 

 

 

So you're telling me if Ballard offers #21 overall and a 2022 1st round pick and another pick that wouldn't be enough to trade into the top 10? If it comes down to either Trask or Jones Ballard should say no to both of them especially in the 1st round. I don't think either one of those guys are 1st round picks. From what I'm hearing, both are day two picks. If I can recall, back in 2017, the Chiefs traded up to number 10, selected Mahomes and they moved from number 27th.

Idk.  How high do you want to go?  Ballard would probably have to go up to 7 or higher to get one of those guys.  Teams that want one aren’t likely to sit and wait.  The point charts seem to say the jump from 21 to 6 would cost us next years 1st (if we finish similarly).  But, there may be too many suitors this year to stay at that price...

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, Archer said:

Yeah, y’know he played well enough to be a Heisman finalist in the OTHER games this year.  I’m not so sure many scouts would totally disregard a prospect bc of one bad quarter.  I doubt if the Colts drafted him they’d expect him to start this year.  They’d find a veteran

Trask is just like his recently retired daddy, Rivers. Noodle arm and a statue.

[Moosejawcolt]

4 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

You’re missing the point. He threw 3 INTs in a half....actually he threw 3 INTs in the 1st quarter. Against a team from a conference that is known not to play any defense. 3 INTs in 1 quarter against a team with a mediocre defense is concerning. At least for a guy people say can start day 1.

Noodle arm......statue.  Hmmmmmm. Where have we seen that before. Hard pass

[DougDew]

I'm gonna sound like I'm beating the drum for Trask.  I'm not.

 

But the kid threw for a ton of yards....a 43......yes 43....TD to 8 interception ratio, against high quality SE conference defenses.  Yes, he had Toney and Pitts helping him.  He's 6.5 240#.  With that resume,  I just don't see where he would not be considered a Top 20 pick given how much QBs are valued.

 

Noodle arm?  That's the same thing folks said about Fromm last year, and that wasn't true either.

 

We'll find out ball velocity at the combine.  At 6.5, his hands are probably a lot bigger than Fromm's

[jvan1973]

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I'm gonna sound like I'm beating the drum for Trask.  I'm not.

 

But the kid threw for a ton of yards....a 43......yes 43....TD to 8 interception ratio, against high quality SE conference defenses.  Yes, he had Toney and Pitts helping him.  He's 6.5 240#.  With that resume,  I just don't see where he would not be considered a Top 20 pick given how much QBs are valued.

 

Noodle arm?  That's the same thing folks said about Fromm last year, and that wasn't true either.

 

We'll find out ball velocity at the combine.  At 6.5, his hands are probably a lot bigger than Fromm's

Fromm went in the 5th round

[jvan1973]

16 hours ago, Archer said:

Yeah, y’know he played well enough to be a Heisman finalist in the OTHER games this year.  I’m not so sure many scouts would totally disregard a prospect bc of one bad quarter.  I doubt if the Colts drafted him they’d expect him to start this year.  They’d find a veteran option...

Why draft another guy that isn't ready to start?

[DougDew]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

Fromm went in the 5th round

I'm not comparing the two, other than them being the recipient of the same comments about arm strength that are not true.

[Dark Superman]

I wouldn't mind Lance or Wilson, but in reality, the Colts will end up with either Mac Jones or Kyle Trask.

[danlhart87]

23 minutes ago, BillCoslosky87 said:

I wouldn't mind Lance or Wilson, but in reality, the Colts will end up with either Mac Jones or Kyle Trask.

Hopefully MJ

[Luck 4 president]

Fields and Wilson will be out of reach. We’re looking at Mac Jones, Lance, and Trask. I’d probably go with Jones out of those 3

[Stephen]

8 hours ago, Luck 4 president said:

Fields and Wilson will be out of reach. We’re looking at Mac Jones, Lance, and Trask. I’d probably go with Jones out of those 3

What about jamie newman

[stitches]

On 2/5/2021 at 12:36 AM, danlhart87 said:

 

 

Very bold trade

I would do it though 

I would rather us NOT do this. This is horrible IMO. I just don't think Mac Jones is THAT type of QB. 

[stitches]

22 hours ago, DougDew said:

I'm not comparing the two, other than them being the recipient of the same comments about arm strength that are not true.

It's not JUST about armstrength. Nowadays QBs need mobility and playmaking both inside the pocket and outside the pocket(because defenses are getting more and more athletic every year... LBs pay at 220-225 nowadays). Both Mac Jones and Kyle Trask(and Jake Fromm last year) lack those to varying degrees. That's why they are not considered premier prospects, but rather mid-round shots to take. Their upside is in the mold of a Kirk Cousins, who is a good QB, but nothing special and when you get to the playoffs he's almost always the worse QB on the field. 

 

And BTW I like BOTH Jones and Trask. I was sounding the alarm to Kyle Trask as a legitimate NFL prospect last year when he was starting his first several games in college. And Jones had a great year and impressed in the Senior Bowl too. He was quite easily the best QB there. He has some skill and talent. He could be an NFL QB if things go right. I still don't want anything to do with him in R1. He's just not THAT type of prospect. We can like a prospect and still give him an appripriate(well, according to me at least) evaluation and draft range( for me those are 2-3 for Jones, 3-4 for Trask, 4-5 for Fromm).  

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

It's not JUST about armstrength. Nowadays QBs need mobility and playmaking both inside the pocket and outside the pocket(because defenses are getting more and more athletic every year... LBs pay at 220-225 nowadays). Both Mac Jones and Kyle Trask(and Jake Fromm last year) lack those to varying degrees. That's why they are not considered premier prospects, but rather mid-round shots to take. Their upside is in the mold of a Kirk Cousins, who is a good QB, but nothing special and when you get to the playoffs he's almost always the worse QB on the field. 

 

And BTW I like BOTH Jones and Trask. I was sounding the alarm to Kyle Trask as a legitimate NFL prospect last year when he was starting his first several games in college. And Jones had a great year and impressed in the Senior Bowl too. He was quite easily the best QB there. He has some skill and talent. He could be an NFL QB if things go right. I still don't want anything to do with him in R1. He's just not THAT type of prospect. We can like a prospect and still give him an appripriate(well, according to me at least) evaluation and draft range( for me those are 2-3 for Jones, 3-4 for Trask, 4-5 for Fromm).  

And yet, the slowest and most immobile QB in the NFL is in this year's SB, and about 8 others before this year.

 

Decision making and accuracy are still the two most important attributes of successful QBs.

 

Arm strength and mobility are not as high as some others, like leadership or mental toughness, with arm strength higher than mobility.

 

All of the above has to be wrapped into a package that contains an acceptable level of athleticism, size, and arm talent to succeed in the NFL.  Fromm barely hits that physicality threshold.

 

I can't believe that GMs that know what they're doing would devalue Jones or Trask by a full round because they do not run.  IMO, their mobility is very good, in that they can avoid the rush just fine.  What they cannot do is run side to side extending a play for 4 seconds.  If a QB has to do that, something is wrong with the offense; likely the field vision, anticipation perception, and decision making components of the QB.

 

Trask is more mobile than Jones, and the size superiority would mean that he could take NFL hits better when running, or sacked.  Also, another way to extend the play is to not run, but to be like Big Ben or even JB, don't go down with the first hit in the pocket.

 

I think what drops Trask down into the second tier is pure arm strength that is exacerbated by inconsistent lower body mechanics.  With the idea that top 20 QBs are supposed to be able to start right away, he might need some mechanical coaching before he is ready to start, hence the value drop.  JMO.

 

IMO Kirk Cousins is second tier because of his decision making under stress.  The mental aspect at critical moments.  His physicality/arm talent/mobility is just fine.

[stitches]

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

And yet, the slowest and most immobile QB in the NFL is in this year's SB, and about 8 others before this year.

There are exceptions to every rule, and Brady is the ultimate exception of them all. You won't go far trying to bet on exceptions. Especially in R1. BTW, Brady to this day is one of the best QBs moving inside the pocket and playmaking inside the pocket. None of those have anything close to that skill. And they are not as accurate and anticipatory of throwers either. 

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Decision making and accuracy are still the two most important attributes of successful QBs.

Some of them, yes... agree. But again... just look at the new age QBs and who succeeds. The Bradys, Peytons and Rivers' of the world are a dying breed. Nowadays you need both the decision making and acccuracy and the playmaking and movement aspect. 

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Arm strength and mobility are not as high as some others, like leadership or mental toughness, with arm strength higher than mobility.

 

All of the above has to be wrapped into a certain level of athleticism, size, and arm talent to succeed in the NFL.  Fromm barely hits that physicality threshold.

 

IMO he doesn't hit that threshold and will never be an NFL starter. That's why, even though I liked him too, I had him much lower than most last year. I guess we will see with time. 

 

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I can't believe that GMs that know what they're doing would devalue Jones or Trask by a full round because they do not run.  IMO, their mobility is very good, in that they can avoid the rush just fine.  What they cannot do is run side to side extending a play for 4 seconds, but if a QB has to do that something is wrong with the offense, likely the field vision, anticipation perception, and decision making components of the QB.

Running is not the thing here. When I'm talking about playmaking and making plays out of structure I don't necessarily mean run the ball. In fact, I prefer them not to run it. I prefer them to escape the pocket and still keep their eyes downfield for a pass. I'm talking about when things get muddled up in the pocket and you have to leave and move in order to create a throwing window or to make a secondary out of the structure play - you have the physical ability to 1. move out of the way of the defenders and 2. have the ability to make the throw on the move, with muddled pocket, off-platform... the things that Josh Allen did to us, for example. The things that Mahomes does... the things that Luck used to do,  the things that Wilson and Watson do.

 

I don't think your last sentiment is right here either. You are not playing against cones here. Those are highly athletic defenders that are some of the biggest freaks on the planet at their weight trying to get to you and disrupt you. In some % of the plays this is going to happen! Regardless of what your offense is, what your anticipation and decision making are... you will need to move in order to make a play. Your receivers won't be open right away, your guard will get blown up, a blitz will not get picked... those things happen even to the best of offenses with the smartest and most accurate QBs. 

 

I don't agree with your evaluation of Jones and Trask and Fromm. Not at the NFL level. None of them have good mobility to avoid the rush and make plays. This is the crux of the matter. THIS is why they will get knocked, not because they cannot run. 

 

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Trask is more mobile than Jones, and the size superiority would mean that he could take NFL hits better when running.

 

I think what drops Trask down into the second tier is pure arm strength that is exacerbated by inconsistent lower body mechanics.  With the idea that top 20 QBs are supposed to be able to start right away, he might need some mechanical coaching before he is ready to start, hence the value drop.  JMO.

 

IMO Kirk Cousins is second tier because of his decision making under stress.  The mental aspect at critical moments.  His physicality/arm talent is just fine.

I agree about Trask being marginally more mobile. I don't think it will make much of a difference. I think both his and Jones' mobility don't play well in the league. I also don't put too much weight on the armstrength thing unless it will hinder you from doing certain things). For example, IMO deep ball passing is more about deep field accuracy and anticipation than about armstrength. Almost all QBs in the NFL can throw a ball 50 yards downfield when they have solid base and clean pocket. I personally don't knock the QBs a ton on the basis of just armstrength being questionable. For example - Burrow doesn't have a gun of an arm(I'd say it's about average for the league... maybe even below). I'd still take him no. 1 because IMO it didn't hinder him to a significant degree. 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

There are exceptions to every rule, and Brady is the ultimate exception of them all. You won't go far trying to bet on exceptions. Especially in R1. BTW, Brady to this day is one of the best QBs moving inside the pocket and playmaking inside the pocket. None of those have anything close to that skill. And they are not as accurate and anticipatory of throwers either. 

Some of them, yes... agree. But again... just look at the new age QBs and who succeeds. The Bradys, Peytons and Rivers' of the world are a dying breed. Nowadays you need both the decision making and acccuracy and the playmaking and movement aspect. 

 

IMO he doesn't hit that threshold and will never be an NFL starter. That's why, even though I liked him too, I had him much lower than most last year. I guess we will see with time. 

 

Running is not the thing here. When I'm talking about playmaking and making plays out of structure I don't necessarily mean run the ball. In fact, I prefer them not to run it. I prefer them to escape the pocket and still keep their eyes downfield for a pass. I'm talking about when things get muddled up in the pocket and you have to leave and move in order to create a throwing window or to make a secondary out of the structure play - you have the physical ability to 1. move out of the way of the defenders and 2. have the ability to make the throw on the move, with muddled pocket, off-platform... the things that Josh Allen did to us, for example. The things that Mahomes does... the things that Luck used to do,  the things that Wilson and Watson do.

 

I don't think your last sentiment is right here either. You are not playing against cones here. Those are highly athletic defenders that are some of the biggest freaks on the planet at their weight trying to get to you and disrupt you. In some % of the plays this is going to happen! Regardless of what your offense is, what your anticipation and decision making are... you will need to move in order to make a play. Your receivers won't be open right away, your guard will get blown up, a blitz will not get picked... those things happen even to the best of offenses with the smartest and most accurate QBs. 

 

I don't agree with your evaluation of Jones and Trask and Fromm. Not at the NFL level. None of them have good mobility to avoid the rush and make plays. This is the crux of the matter. THIS is why they will get knocked, not because they cannot run. 

 

I agree about Trask being marginally more mobile. I don't think it will make much of a difference. I think both his and Jones' mobility don't play well in the league. I also don't put too much weight on the armstrength thing unless it will hinder you from doing certain things). For example, IMO deep ball passing is more about deep field accuracy and anticipation than about armstrength. Almost all QBs in the NFL can throw a ball 50 yards downfield when they have solid base and clean pocket. I personally don't knock the QBs a ton on the basis of just armstrength being questionable. For example - Burrow doesn't have a gun of an arm(I'd say it's about average for the league... maybe even below). I'd still take him no. 1 because IMO it didn't hinder him to a significant degree. 

The QB has blockers to defend him and keep him from taking a clean hit.  I prefer Trask to many others because he has the size to withstand glancing blows that come with sliding around.  That type of mobility, with size, is all a QB needs to succeed, provided he has the anticipation talent to release the ball when he's supposed to.  Size is why I prefer Trask over Jones, who might get thrown off the timing easier.

 

Size is also why I prefer to not commit a lot of capital to a Qb that might stifle Eason's development.  You cant teach 6.6 240 and cannon. 

 

Yes, Brady is an anomaly for immobile QBs.  But Mahomes is the anomaly for mobile out of structure QBs.  All of the other QBs that play out of structure do so because of their inability to consistently play within structure.  Allen, Watson, Lamar (when its not a designed run), etc.  So, IMO, the ability of these QBs to play out of structure is not really a desirable thing.  Its indicative of flaws in more important things, or maybe simply the talent around them.

 

I've said before, I think Watson is being overvalued.  Yes, he can do wonderful things.  But the reason he HAS to do wonderful things is because his team cannot move the ball within a structured offense, so they have to rely upon him to do those things.  Watson playing the way he does is NOT a good thing.  That's why HOU was 4-12.   

 

Allen could be in the SB if it were not about the flaws in BUFs offensive structure, either because of his occasional wildness or because of a few missing pieces on O...like a running game. 

[Archer]

On 2/6/2021 at 11:15 AM, jvan1973 said:

Why draft another guy that isn't ready to start?

To start in the future.  The NFL norm used to be to sit a 1st round QB his 1st year, ala Mahomes.  We’ve gotten used to teams starting those top 10 QBs on day 1, but there’s nothing wrong with developing them for a year...