Colts sign CB Will Sunderland to PS

[EastStreet]

Interesting project. Pretty well ranked coming out of HS. Went to OK for a couple years, before getting kicked out and transferring to Troy. I think he's more of a NB, SS, or Dime candidate, but he does have some skills if he can find a home in a zone system. Originally signed as a UDFA in Green Bay.

[dw49]

Ya never know. Looks like he certainly has the measurables....


https://troytrojans.com/news/2020/3/5/football-troy-players-show-off-skills-on-pro-day.aspx

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, dw49 said:

Ya never know. Looks like he certainly has the measurables....


https://troytrojans.com/news/2020/3/5/football-troy-players-show-off-skills-on-pro-day.aspx

Just got done reading a few articles. Differing stories on speed. I always take small school pro-days with a grain of salt. 

 

His RAS says 4.51

 

Here's what his NFL.com profile has to say.

 

Quote

 

Overview

Former four-star recruit who came to Troy after parting ways with Oklahoma in the wake of the burglary charge. Sunderland is inexperienced as a cornerback and needs to learn the nuances of reading and squeezing routes from both man and zone. Lack of technique from press creates precarious reps and he doesn't have a recovery gear to make up for deep separation. He has the tools and size for run support but needs to play with committed aggression to entice teams looking at him as either a zone corner or safety.

 

Strengths

Experience playing cornerback and safety

Good size, length and range for extended tackle radius

Can close and finish in run support when he gets downhill

Shows confidence and comfort from zone

Relatively capable of reading quarterback's eyes from off coverage

Hard to throw over on jump balls

Tilts 50-50 balls in his favor downfield

 

Weaknesses

Charged with burglary and given one year deferred sentence

Bails out on jab and press opportunities prematurely

Spotty footwork in attempting to mirror press release

Recovery speed is very average and could be a problem

Needs to play with better aggression in run support

Can be slow to attack and shed blocking receivers

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/will-sunderland/32195355-4e28-3611-cf3c-1c351ff7f869

[EastStreet]

here's another blurb

 

https://dairylandexpress.com/2020/05/13/green-bay-packers-scouting-report-udfa-cb-will-sunderland/

[EastStreet]

RAS

https://relativeathleticscores.com/2020/03/06/will-sunderland-ras/

[stitches]

5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

RAS

https://relativeathleticscores.com/2020/03/06/will-sunderland-ras/

Arm-lenght... 

 

 

[indyagent17]

29 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Just got done reading a few articles. Differing stories on speed. I always take small school pro-days with a grain of salt. 

 

His RAS says 4.51

 

Here's what his NFL.com profile has to say.

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/will-sunderland/32195355-4e28-3611-cf3c-1c351ff7f869

That is NOT a glowing recommendation 

[dw49]

33 minutes ago, indyagent17 said:

That is NOT a glowing recommendation 

 

I mean he's an undrafted FA that didn't stick on GB's 16 man practice squad. He's a real long shot and there are certainly reports out there to justify that.

[EastStreet]

55 minutes ago, stitches said:

Arm-lenght... 

 

 

I wish that was all it takes lol...

36 minutes ago, indyagent17 said:

That is NOT a glowing recommendation 

It's not near as bad as the RAS grades make it seam either. 4.51 is fine for a lot of SSs or NBs. Kid is just raw in all the other aspects. Had he not screwed up at OK, he would have got much better coaching and development. 

 

Long shot I agree, but I like the length. Production is pretty decent as well, but it is Troy... 

[buccolts]

This is to offset the Ravens picking up Dez.

Good move. 

[stitches]

39 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I wish that was all it takes lol...

It's not near as bad as the RAS grades make it seam either. 4.51 is fine for a lot of SSs or NBs. Kid is just raw in all the other aspects. Had he not screwed up at OK, he would have got much better coaching and development. 

 

Long shot I agree, but I like the length. Production is pretty decent as well, but it is Troy... 

I know, I'm just pointing out... it's the one thing that ties ALL of the corners Ballard brings in. They all have long arms. In fact when you watching CBs for the draft, you can pretty much ignore all the short arm corners for the Colts, especially in the early rounds. 

[EastStreet]

23 minutes ago, buccolts said:

This is to offset the Ravens picking up Dez.

Good move. 

Can you believe he signed to their PS? Wut?

2 minutes ago, stitches said:

I know, I'm just pointing out... it's the one thing that ties ALL of the corners Ballard brings in. They all have long arms. In fact when you watching CBs for the draft, you can pretty much ignore all the short arm corners for the Colts, especially in the early rounds. 

Yea, I know.

 

What is Ballard's arm length requirement? 

[stitches]

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Can you believe he signed to their PS? Wut?

Yea, I know.

 

What is Ballard's arm length requirement? 

I don't think I have seen it stated anywhere, but there is a lot of Seattle influence on that staff and their requirement is 32". 

 

If you take a look at the corners Ballard has drafted or brought in:

Quincy Wilson 32 1/4"

Kenny Moore 32 5/8"

Rock Ya-Sin 32" 

Pierre Desir 33"

Marvell Tell 33 1/8"

Xavier Rhodes 33 3/4" 

T.J. Carrie 31 7/8"

Isaiah Rodgers 32 7/8"

Nate Hairston 31"

 

It's probably not a 100% firm, no exceptions type of requirement but you can see here what we are talking about... pretty much the only exceptions are a 5th rounder and a vet-min guy who is 1/8 of an inch short of the requirement. 

[Four2itus]

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

What is Ballard's arm length requirement? 

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, stitches said:

I don't think I have seen it stated anywhere, but there is a lot of Seattle influence on that staff and their requirement is 32". 

 

If you take a look at the corners Ballard has drafted or brought in:

Quincy Wilson 32 1/4"

Kenny Moore 32 5/8"

Rock Ya-Sin 32" 

Pierre Desir 33"

Marvell Tell 33 1/8"

Xavier Rhodes 33 3/4" 

T.J. Carrie 31 7/8"

Isaiah Rodgers 32 7/8"

Nate Hairston 31"

 

It's probably not a 100% firm, no exceptions type of requirement but you can see here what we are talking about... pretty much the only exceptions are a 5th rounder and a vet-min guy who is 1/8 of an inch short of the requirement. 

I was asking because the guy we drafted this year, doesn't hit the 32ish. I think you have the wrong Isaiah

 

[stitches]

5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I was asking because the guy we drafted this year, doesn't hit the 32ish. I think you have the wrong Isaiah

 

I don't know where they got that number but it's not correct. 

 

 

 

 

[EastStreet]

8 minutes ago, stitches said:

I don't know where they got that number but it's not correct. 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to go with the RAS, which has been very reliable. 

The above shows 32 and 7/8. If you multiply that by 2, and subtract from his wingspan (76), that means he has a 10 inch chest.

 

[dw49]

3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I'm going to go with the RAS, which has been very reliable. 

The above shows 32 and 7/8. If you multiply that by 2, and subtract from his wingspan (76), that means he has a 10 inch chest.

 

 

Here's a great article on the Colts and Rodgers. If you watch the video , that's what he measures. Unless I'm hearing it wrong ... You don't have to watch the whole 9 minutes as they get to wingspan and arm length quickly. Watch closely how they take those measurements. It wouldn't leave the whole width of his chest to be "added on."

https://www.colts.com/news/isaiah-rodgers-umass-cornerback-returner-covid-19-pro-day-nfl-draft

[EastStreet]

Just now, dw49 said:

 

Here's a great article on the Colts and Rodgers. If you watch the video , that's what he measures. Unless I'm hearing it wrong ... You don't have to watch the whole 9 minutes as they get to wingspan and arm length quickly.

https://www.colts.com/news/isaiah-rodgers-umass-cornerback-returner-covid-19-pro-day-nfl-draft

Already watched it. Can't make it out. 

Can't buy the 10 inch chest my friend lol.

[dw49]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

Already watched it. Can't make it out. 

Can't buy the 10 inch chest my friend lol.

  I just edited my post before you posted. Watch how they take the measurements again , it wouldn't be the whole width of his chest to be "added on." I listened twice and pretty sure he's saying 32and 7/8ths. 

 

[dw49]

9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Already watched it. Can't make it out. 

Can't buy the 10 inch chest my friend lol.

JJ Watt comes out to 14inches and he's pretty massive

Janen Ramsey 12.8

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, dw49 said:

  I just edited my post before you posted. Watch how they take the measurements again , it wouldn't be the whole width of his chest to be "added on." I listened twice and pretty sure he's saying 32and 7/8ths. 

Nah man. They are supposed to measure from the end of the bicep/or edge of the shoulder blade (scapula). The math doesn't work.

 

[dw49]

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Already watched it. Can't make it out. 

Can't buy the 10 inch chest my friend lol.

 

Not nice to do the LOL ... here's a smallish CB's measurables..

https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Cameron&l=Dantzler&i=30070

[dw49]

11 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

Not nice to do the LOL ... here's a smallish CB's measurables..

https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Cameron&l=Dantzler&i=30070

 

That would be 11 inches ? 

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

Not nice to do the LOL ...

??

5 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

here's a smallish CB's measurables..

https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Cameron&l=Dantzler&i=30070

That dude is 6-2/185 vs 5-10/170. Gong to say the extra 4 inches plays a part, and he's a bean pole. 

 

Not worth arguing. IF they are measuring correctly, the numbers simply don't add it. 

[dw49]

27 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

??

That dude is 6-2/185 vs 5-10/170. Gong to say the extra 4 inches plays a part, and he's a bean pole. 

 

Not worth arguing. IF they are measuring correctly, the numbers simply don't add it. 

 

No it isn't worth a lot of back and forth but I think guys are built different and looks like the end of the should blade could "cut into " the chest measurement. In any event Rodgers has long arms and that's good.

BTW... when we did our favorite 2 picks of the draft mine were Rodgers and Blackmon. So obviously I think Rodgers is going to be a good cover man going forward. He's for sure going to be a liability vs the run , so he'll most likely never be a guy that plays more than say 50% of the plays without an injury . Unless of coarse he gains 15 pounds without losing a lot of speed. 

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, dw49 said:

 

No it isn't worth a lot of back and forth but I think guys are built different and looks like the end of the should blade could "cut into " the chest measurement. In any event Rodgers has long arms and that's good.

BTW... when we did our favorite 2 picks of the draft mine were Rodgers and Blackmon. So obviously I think Rodgers is going to be a good cover man going forward. He's for sure going to be a liability vs the run , so he'll most likely never be a guy that plays more than say 50% of the plays without an injury . Unless of coarse he gains 15 pounds without losing a lot of speed. 

I rewatched the vid. The guy definitely measures too far into the back. Per the combine how to's, they are supposed to measure from edge of scapula. Basically where the humerus and scapula meet. Doesn't really matter as his wingspan is the important thing. 

 

I liked Rodger too. Thought he was too small to be legit CB contributor until he adds some weight, but loved his long term upside. What is strange to me though they had him working in as NB, which seems like he'd get crushed at his weight if he gets caught by RB or TE. I'd love to see him put on some pounds. Given he's blazing fast, he can certainly add 10-15 and still be plenty fast.

[dw49]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

I rewatched the vid. The guy definitely measures too far into the back. Per the combine how to's, they are supposed to measure from edge of scapula. Basically where the humerus and scapula meet. Doesn't really matter as his wingspan is the important thing. 

 

I liked Rodger too. Thought he was too small to be legit CB contributor until he adds some weight, but loved his long term upside. What is strange to me though they had him working in as NB, which seems like he'd get crushed at his weight if he gets caught by RB or TE. I'd love to see him put on some pounds. Given he's blazing fast, he can certainly add 10-15 and still be plenty fast.

 

Yeah that could be on the measurement and agree it doesn't really matter. At the least I think he'll help us get off the field in those 3rd and 10's .

[NewColtsFan]

8 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I rewatched the vid. The guy definitely measures too far into the back. Per the combine how to's, they are supposed to measure from edge of scapula. Basically where the humerus and scapula meet. Doesn't really matter as his wingspan is the important thing. 

 

I liked Rodger too. Thought he was too small to be legit CB contributor until he adds some weight, but loved his long term upside. What is strange to me though they had him working in as NB, which seems like he'd get crushed at his weight if he gets caught by RB or TE. I'd love to see him put on some pounds. Given he's blazing fast, he can certainly add 10-15 and still be plenty fast.

Most, but not all,  most teams use their smallest CB as the Nickel.   Why do you think Kenny Moore plays mostly the nickel?  He's roughly the same height as Rodgers.    Few teams want a 5-10 corner playing outside.   Since the nickel is only in on 3 and 4 WR sets,  odds are he's going to face far more pass plays and far less run plays.   If opposing teams want to run out of passing looks,  most defenses will happily take that.     

[ReMeDy]

This is good and all, but can he play Magic the Gathering?

[EastStreet]

13 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

Yeah that could be on the measurement and agree it doesn't really matter. At the least I think he'll help us get off the field in those 3rd and 10's .

In year one, I really only care about his STs play. He's already made an impact. If he can turn into a decent depth or starting CB, that's just icing for me. 

[EastStreet]

6 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Most, but not all,  most teams use their smallest CB as the Nickel.   Why do you think Kenny Moore plays mostly the nickel?  He's roughly the same height as Rodgers.    Few teams want a 5-10 corner playing outside.   Since the nickel is only in on 3 and 4 WR sets,  odds are he's going to face far more pass plays and far less run plays.   If opposing teams want to run out of passing looks,  most defenses will happily take that.     

Short/small yes, rarely 170lbs. Not sure I've ever seen a 170lb NB at the NFL level that got substantial play. It's why I've said a few times he needs to put on 10-20lbs, 10 at least. Coleman is the only one I can think of that's about 180

 

As far as NB%, we have more than 2 CBs on the field the overwhelming majority of the time. IIRC, almost 90% of the time last game. Sure it varies a bit depending on O we are playing, but we easily have a 3 CB set on the field 2 of every 3 downs.

[Dogg63]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Not sure I've ever seen a 170lb NB at the NFL level that got substantial play.

There's always an exception:

Mark McMillian, Chiefs: 5-7, 154 pounds 

[EastStreet]

25 minutes ago, Dogg63 said:

There's always an exception:

Mark McMillian, Chiefs: 5-7, 154 pounds 

Was mighty mouse a NB?

He started out with Philly early 90s IIRC.

Yea, always an exception lol