Why Was Jim Caldwell Fired?

[Finball]

Just now, Coffeedrinker said:

About the same.

 

I'd be really interested in seeing the numbers.

[Coffeedrinker]

20 minutes ago, Finball said:

 

I'd be really interested in seeing the numbers.

I will try to find them but they will be hard.  I used to get that information from Advanced Football Analytics but they have since been purchased by ESPN and their content is not easily available.  But I remember seeing it at the time (because as you can imagine it was a hot topic on the forums) the Colts' chances of winning was right around 55% (plus or minus) until Gerrad (sp?)completed that 22 yard pass.  Even then the Colts chances of winning were right around 50% (perhaps slightly below if I remember correctly which is not a guarantee) because of the long FG attempt.

[Superman]

47 minutes ago, dgambill said:

At first I thought this was why was Caldwell fired from the Lions thread....as they are worse without him....but that's another story lol. I still think Irsay wanted to wash his hands and make a clean break from Peyton. The easiest solution was to basically clean house except the QB coach. Now why Jim was part of some other interview processes etc I think they were considering keeping him...but I think in the end Irsay wanted to break all ties to the old Manning regime where he had so much control and close ties and that way it would make the transition to Luck easier to accept for the public and for the new GM coming in. The way I look at it....they wanted to move on to Luck. If we kept Polian with his loyalties to Peyton...what would that look like. Would he want to keep both qbs, would he want to sell the pick, I think the first decision was to move Peyton...everything else after that was a result of that decision. Just my opinion...pure speculation. 

 

Meh. I think a big part of getting rid of Polian was Irsay wanted control of his franchise back, and Polian had been given so much authority that it wasn't going to happen as long as he was in the picture. But Polian and his crew rightfully deserved some blame for the way the roster was falling apart, for bad media relations, and for a 2011 season that wound up being worse than it really should have been.

 

Same for Caldwell. I think there were clear and obvious reasons that have nothing to do with Manning that explain why he was fired. My push back is primarily against the idea that either Polian or Caldwell (or both) were only fired because it was time for a clean transition to the post-Manning era -- or that this was a primary consideration -- as if either man was completely undeserving of losing his job on merit. With or without Manning, there were reasons to seriously consider major staff changes.

 

I'm also resistant to the idea that Manning had any inordinate control in the organization. He wound up having the biggest voice on offense, but that didn't extend to organizational decision making, and I don't think it impacted any staff changes.

 

I believe that a mandate from Irsay to move from Manning would have been carried out in earnest by Polian and Caldwell, had they not been fired. I know Polian made public comments about how he would have tried to restructure the roster with Manning, but remember this is the same guy who reportedly got fed up during contract negotiations in 2004, and suggested trading Manning, the reigning MVP, for a gaggle of picks. 

 

Moving on from Polian, from Caldwell, and from Manning, could easily have been three independent decisions. Polian and his sons weren't doing a good job with the roster. Caldwell wasn't doing a good job as a coach. Manning was uncertain to ever come back and play at a high level, but was due a $28m bonus, and the Colts had the chance to pick a great QB prospect to replace him. I don't really see why any of the decisions Irsay made even require explanation, they all make sense from strictly a football/roster management standpoint, and they stand on their own merit. 

[tikyle]

On 12/7/2018 at 6:38 PM, jameszeigler834 said:

No he was awful.

 

He was awful because he went 2-14 with Jim "Don't Call Me Elway" Sorgi?  Or was he awful when he went to the Superbowl with Peyton Manning or when he coordinated Joe Flacco to a Superbowl victory or when he made the playoffs with the hapless Lions and Matthew Stafford?

 

Caldwell wasn't a rah-rah coach but to think that he wasn't a good HC or that he wouldn't have been great for a young QB in Andrew Luck is short sighted.  I will say this, he would have gotten more out of the Colts and Luck than Pagano did and I think he would've done so without getting Luck beat into oblivion.....

[DougDew]

As far as hiring Pagano after Caldwell, IIRC, Grigson made a comment about Pagano in that "players will run through a brick wall for this guy".  Motivating/inspiring players to do their best was probably not Caldwell's strong suit.  And when interviewing Spagnulo in the same room, maybe Grigs saw that was a quality he wanted more from a HC, so he fired Caldwell the next day to look for a personality like Spags/Pags.

 

I think that dynamic happens in the NFL.  Teams hire the opposite kind of guy they just fired a week ago.  In Detroit, Caldwell was the perfect HC to succeed that hot head Jim Schwartz and calm the ship that also had Suh and some others.  And Reich is more of a cerebral offensive minded game planner compared to Pagano's cheerleading DC approach.

 

I think they all can do well in certain situations, struggle in others, and probably eventually wear out their mojo if they stay in one place long enough (basketball coach Larry Brown used to say that)

[ColtsBlueFL]

5 hours ago, Finball said:

Lions had 24 wins and PO appearance in 3 years before Caldwell was hired and 30 wins in 4 prior years along with PO appearance. Current Browns never had the latter and managed the former once, over 15 years ago.

 

No, it was 21 wins (27 losses) with a playoff loss 3 years prior to JC, 27 wins (37 losses) 4 years prior, and 29 wins - 51 losses 5 years prior, all under Jim Schwartz. Browns were 23 - 57 in same 5 year period.  In the 2001 -  2008 period, Lions were 31 wins with 97 losses.  Browns were better at  49 wins  with 79 losses.

 

Overall from 2001 - 2013, Browns were 72 - 136 while the Lions were 60 - 148.  Lions only had 1 winning season (a 10 - 6 season) in that time frame where Lions got in the playoffs (2011). The Browns did not with a 10 - 6 season as well (2007), but did (as you point out) make playoffs in 2002 with a 9 - 7 record.

[Smoke317]

I think Caldwell is a good coach.  Not great. But better than Pagano in my opinion. I actually wonder if we would have been better with him as our HC during the early Pagano years???  We’ll never know.  It’s hard for me to forgive him for the 2 Jets blunders.  The timeout was clearly his fault and the lesser of the 2 sins.  The sabotaging of the perfect season was worse but wreaked of Polian.

 

But it showed me that Caldwell was a company “yes man” who let his boss take away his chance to cement his legacy that no one could ever take from how.  What a cowardly move.  I lost all respect for Polian & Caldwell as I left the stadium that night. I’ve since slightly forgiven Caldwell.  Slightly.  I’ll never forgive the power drunk Polian.  Never. 

[Jason_]

16 hours ago, tikyle said:

 

He was awful because he went 2-14 with Jim "Don't Call Me Elway" Sorgi?  Or was he awful when he went to the Superbowl with Peyton Manning or when he coordinated Joe Flacco to a Superbowl victory or when he made the playoffs with the hapless Lions and Matthew Stafford?

 

Caldwell wasn't a rah-rah coach but to think that he wasn't a good HC or that he wouldn't have been great for a young QB in Andrew Luck is short sighted.  I will say this, he would have gotten more out of the Colts and Luck than Pagano did and I think he would've done so without getting Luck beat into oblivion.....

 

Sorgi retired in 2009.  Jim went 2-14 with Curtis Painter and Dan Orlovsky.  Granted those 2 guys are...bad, but the fact that Jim and Clyde just kept trying to run the same "Manning offense" with Painter for 10 weeks before making any noticeable changes to the offensive philosophy was enough for me to want them out.

[lollygagger8]

19 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I'm glad he got some redemption in Baltimore, and another HC shot in Detroit. But I thought he should have been fired after getting blown out 62-7 by the Saints. 

 

I was so mad during that game. Sean Payton had a cast on eating a hotdog up in the booth and just ran up the score while the Colts looked unprepared. 

[jvan1973]

On 12/7/2018 at 9:21 PM, crazycolt1 said:

Just how do you know that one or both haven't been offered a job?  Pagano did make the comment that the Colts job would be his last. Jim Caldwell was hired as a consultant for the XFL and said he was not seeking a job in the NFL. Both are enjoying their retirement.

So hinting both are not good enough to get hired in the NFL is wrong.

I think this has been proven false this week

[Steamboat_Shaun]

On 12/7/2018 at 7:21 PM, crazycolt1 said:

Just how do you know that one or both haven't been offered a job?  Pagano did make the comment that the Colts job would be his last. Jim Caldwell was hired as a consultant for the XFL and said he was not seeking a job in the NFL. Both are enjoying their retirement.

So hinting both are not good enough to get hired in the NFL is wrong.

 

There's anywhere between 5 to 8 very good/great coaches in the NFL. Caldwell & Pagano's names aren't on that list.

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

There's anywhere between 5 to 8 very good/great coaches in the NFL. Caldwell & Pagano's names aren't on that list.

They are both being mentioned for the head coaching job in Green bay so they are on one list anyway.

[crazycolt1]

4 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

I think this has been proven false this week

How you figure?  What Pagano said two years ago does not mean it's today. People change their mind all the time.

[jvan1973]

38 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

How you figure?  What Pagano said two years ago does not mean it's today. People change their mind all the time.

Two years ago? He was still employed here this time last year.  Caldwell was still with lions this time last year. 

[crazycolt1]

4 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Two years ago? He was still employed here this time last year.  Caldwell was still with lions this time last year. 

Pagano made the comment he was going home and considered himself retired when he left the Colts. So it was 1 year ago.

This beating a dead horse is horse dung  anyway.

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

Pagano made the comment he was going home and considered himself retired when he left the Colts. So it was 1 year ago.

This beating a dead horse is horse dung  anyway.

 This is from early june

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000935976/article/chuck-pagano-id-love-to-have-another-opportunity

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

 This is from early june

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000935976/article/chuck-pagano-id-love-to-have-another-opportunity

I did read in another article he said he was going home to spend time with his family and considered himself retired.

Beside, what does it matter regarding the Colts? 

The OP ask about him coming back here, not if he was ever going to take another job in the NFL.

There are lots of people who think they want to retire and change their minds.

Every thread that mentions Pagano always ends up like this. It's a waste of time and effort by both for and against.