NFL adopts new Anthem policy

[Jason_]

6 minutes ago, Buck Showalter said:

Right?  Kneeling seems just as respectful as standing. 

 

I'd actually argue that kneeling is even more respectful.  Men are taught to kneel before their loved one when they propose. We're told to kneel before God.  But for the flag and the anthem you better stand right up!  

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Cynjin said:

 

What?

What others do

[Buck Showalter]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

The problem with kneeling is the symbolism it has represented throughout the ages.  Its that part.  Kneeling while your flag,crest or anthem is being presented is a symbol of defeat dating back to the middle ages as this was forced on the losers by the victors. It is an act of surrender and submission. While we are far removed from that time period, the symbolism still stands. Also, one could even argue that kneeling is actually surrendering to the issue versus rising above it, thus counter to what Kap and others intended

Thanks. That supports my question even more. Then why is it an issue?

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

I'd actually argue that kneeling is even more respectful.  Men are taught to kneel before their loved one when they propose. We're told to kneel before God.  But for the flag and the anthem you better stand right up!  

So true

 

Never thought of it that way

[csmopar]

4 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

Oh lord no that is not the reason.  There are many, many topics to which "if you don't like it, ignore it" is exactly the solution and those topics are anything that someone else is doing that does not hurt nor infringe upon another person's civil rights.  Someone else kneeling during the anthem should be no concern of yours whatsoever.  If it bothers or offends you, that's your issue not theirs.  But you have no right to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do if they're not breaking the law.

 

The biggest problem with this country is the group that tries to force their ideals and beliefs on everyone else.

I'm not saying they should or should not be forced to do anything.  It is their right.  However, their employer, the NFL, says they shouldn't do it on the field and if they do, there will be consequences, which is fully within the NFL's right.  I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone.  

 

But you CANNOT fix something by ignoring it.  It's not going to ever get fixed. That's why I said BOTH sides need to work on this social/political issue. Not just parade around for sake of parading around.

[Cynjin]

7 minutes ago, stitches said:

No, I understand perfectly .The US is not the only country in the world that has an anthem or a military, you know? Like ... pretty much every single country in the world has those. And yes - those are definitely political both in their intention and in their result. The fact that the military doesn't belong to a political party doesn't mean what is being targeted by those displays is not political and doesn't serve a political purpose. You can make the exact same argument about anything really - education is not political it doesn't belong to party or ideology... infrastructure is not political, it doesn't belong to party or ideology... economics is not political, it doesn't belong to party or ideology... etc. On their own they are not, but they are very easily interwoven into politics when those paid for displays aim to influence the public one way or another... 

 

You may be correct if they are paid for by a political organization, however that is not the issue.  But no, you do not understand perfectly, it is not the same here as it is other places.

[Jason_]

2 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

Because it is respectful to do so.  I am somewhat perplexed as to why some of you have an issue with showing respect toward the anthem?  Are you okay with intentionally being disrespectful in other ways if it is not a big deal to you?  If I was in Canada or here for a hockey game and they play the Candian national anthem, I will be respectful even though it doesn't mean much to me as an American.  Why?  Because it is the right thing to do.

 

Why?  Says who?  Why can I not have just as much respect for the Anthem if I'm sitting, driving etc?  Do you stand in your living room for every game when the anthem is played?  Do you think that everyone that's up in arms about the players kneeling stand in their homes when the anthem comes on? If you're driving down the street and the anthem is played on the radio, do you pull over, get out of your car and stand at attention until it's over?

 

YOU say it's respectful to do so...I say it's absurd to think that I can't have just as much respect if I'm sitting or wearing a hat as I would if I'm standing.  And again, what if someone else truly believes that kneeling before the flag is an even more thoughtful way to show respect than to stand for it?  They can't show the respect that they want because people like you would try to convince that person that they're not as respectful as you are.  That's not true.  They're just showing respect in a different way.  

 

It's completely arbitrary.  It's like there was a group of people standing around Betsy Ross while she was knitting the flag discussing the ways they think the flag should be respected and they just started drawing conditions out of a hat.

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, Buck Showalter said:

Thanks. That supports my question even more. Then why is it an issue?

Because as I stated above, its been turned into a political action and most people that tune in are sick of political stuff and don't want to see it.  The NFL is entertainment, it is a brand and product that people buy. The ratings have suffered a proven drop since this all started.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Nadine said:

Disagree. Also another stereotype

 

I'm fine with people revering the national anthem and I'm fine with people kneeling. This is America. We get to disagree

Not a stereotype.  The defenders of Kaep's protest have two characteristics.  It's either that they don't want to admit they are wrong so much that they are willing to go down rabbit holes, or there is another reason:  The other being they are unable to apply enough common sense; understand history and that the song represents independence from a monarchy, which by its nature is rooted in privilege as a matter of national law;  to understand that Kaep's explanation that the song represents inequality was misplaced.

 

Its one or the other. I'd rather think of college educated football players as being as arrogant rather than stupid, but that's my polite nature shining through.

 

And I agree.  People can stand or sit.   Free to do so. 

 

The whole point that if you choose to sit while 70,000 others choose to stand, 70,000 are going to think you're an arrogant hole.  Especially if you try to explain your actions by using some dopey excuse that makes no sense.

 

[csmopar]

5 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

I'd actually argue that kneeling is even more respectful.  Men are taught to kneel before their loved one when they propose. We're told to kneel before God.  But for the flag and the anthem you better stand right up!  

hmm.  Now that is an interesting take to ponder

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, csmopar said:

Because as I stated above, its been turned into a political action and most people that tune in are sick of political stuff and don't want to see it.  The NFL is entertainment, it is a brand and product that people buy. The ratings have suffered a proven drop since this all started.

Don’t complain or don’t start watching until after the anthem

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

Why?  Says who?  Why can I not have just as much respect for the Anthem if I'm sitting, driving etc?  Do you stand in your living room for every game when the anthem is played?  Do you think that everyone that's up in arms about the players kneeling stand in their homes when the anthem comes on? If you're driving down the street and the anthem is played on the radio, do you pull over, get out of your car and stand at attention until it's over?

 

YOU say it's respectful to do so...I say it's absurd to think that I can't have just as much respect if I'm sitting or wearing a hat as I would if I'm standing.  And again, what if someone else truly believes that kneeling before the flag is an even more thoughtful way to show respect than to stand for it?  They can't show the respect that they want because people like you would try to convince that person that they're not as respectful as you are.  That's not true.  They're just showing respect in a different way.  

 

It's completely arbitrary.  It's like there was a group of people standing around Betsy Ross while she was knitting the flag discussing the ways they think the flag should be respected and they just started drawing conditions out of a hat.

actually, yes.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Not a stereotype.  The defenders of Kaep's protest have two characteristics.  It's either that they don't want to admit they are wrong so much that they are willing to go down rabbit holes, or there is another reason:  The other being they are unable to apply enough common sense; understand history and that the song represents independence from a monarchy, which by its nature is rooted in privilege as a matter of national law;  to understand that Kaep's explanation that the song represents inequality was misplaced.

 

Its one or the other. I'd rather think of people as arrogant rather than stupid, but that's my polite nature shining through.

 

And I agree.  People can stand or sit.   Free to do so. 

 

The whole point that if you choose to sit while 70,000 others choose to stand, 70,000 are going to think you're an arrogant hole.  Especially if you try to explain your actions by using some dopey excuse that makes no sense.

 

Not at all 

 

   

[csmopar]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

Don’t complain or don’t start watching until after the anthem

Again, I'm not complaining. Would you quit twisting stuff?
 

And again, what good is ignoring the issue?

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, csmopar said:

actually, yes.

Good for you 

 

    Most people do not or care what others do

[Buck Showalter]

2 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Because as I stated above, its been turned into a political action and most people that tune in are sick of political stuff and don't want to see it.  The NFL is entertainment, it is a brand and product that people buy. The ratings have suffered a proven drop since this all started.

If people really wanted it to go away they could let it go away & stop making it an issue.

[csmopar]

2 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Don’t complain or don’t start watching until after the anthem

and I could say the same back to you. Don't like the NFL's anthem policy, dont watch the games. See how dumb and arrogant that sounds?

[csmopar]

Just now, Buck Showalter said:

If people really wanted it to go away they could let it go away & stop making it an issue.

And I think that's exactly what the NFL is trying to do with this.  It gives both sides a compromise and hopefully will put this debate to rest and we can get back to football and leave this in the rear view.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

and I could say the same back to you. Don't like the NFL's anthem policy, dont watch the games. See how dumb and arrogant that sounds?

Who said I ever had an issue with the policy

 

 

     

[Cynjin]

9 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

 

Because I can't control what anyone else finds offensive.  If someone else is offended by my actions that's their problem.  We don't have to hang out.  We don't have to be friends.  I have no problem with that.  But don't try to tell me how to act or how my priorities should be set just because they don't align with yours or someone else's.  

 

My question is why do you feel it's ok to police someone else's behavior just because you don't like what they're doing?  That's an absurd amount of ego right there.

 

Wow, so even though you know an action is going to offend some people you're going to do it anyway?

 

To your question, I am not policing anyone's behavior.  I just believe that I should be considerate and respectful of other peoples feelings.  I think you may be the one with the ego, considering you apparently think it's okay to intentionally be offensive. To heck with what others may feel, as long as it doesn't bother me.  Great attitude.

[Jason_]

5 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I'm not saying they should or should not be forced to do anything.  It is their right.  However, their employer, the NFL, says they shouldn't do it on the field and if they do, there will be consequences, which is fully within the NFL's right.  I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone.  

 

But you CANNOT fix something by ignoring it.  It's not going to ever get fixed. That's why I said BOTH sides need to work on this social/political issue. Not just parade around for sake of parading around.

 

For the most part I agree.  However there are a lot of people trying to fix things that aren't broken.  If you think it's disrespectful to not stand during the anthem then stand during the anthem.  If you think gay marriage is wrong, then don't get married to a gay person.  If you think interracial relationships are wrong then don't be in a relationship with someone outside of your race.  If it's something that you don't like, but it's not affecting your ability to have a high quality of life other than the fact that you won't let yourself get over it, then that's the kind of thing you should ignore and just move on..focus on yourself and not what others are doing.  And just to clarify, when I say "you" I mean the collective "you", not you personally.  I don't know how you feel about the other subjects I brought up...I merely wanted to provide a few examples of things that some people consider "problems that need to be fixed" that really don't.

 

As for what you said about the NFL and their right to make this rule, I completely agree.  I never had any issue with the players kneeling but now that the NFL has made a rule about it, the players should follow it or stay in the locker room.

[csmopar]

3 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Good for you 

 

    Most people do not or care what others do

If you don't care, then why ask?

[stitches]

1 minute ago, Cynjin said:

 

You may be correct if they are paid for by a political organization, however that is not the issue.  But no, you do not understand perfectly, it is not the same here as it is other places.

Actually... yes... it's pretty much the same as most other places. And if my military was doing the exact same thing on the games of my favorite soccer team I would still consider this political... 

 

 

 

[csmopar]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

Who said I ever had an issue with the policy

 

 

     

I was speaking generally. 

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, csmopar said:

If you don't care, then why ask?

I didn’t

 

 

  this is not @J@son

[Narcosys]

55 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Don’t watch or go

So your answer to it, is that millions of people should stop watching the thing they love just because a handful of people are cheapening the fun for them? So let the minority hold the majority hostage? There's a comparison there somewhere with genders and bathrooms lol. Please edit @Nadine if too much lol

 

edit: just read follow on post, makes sense to watch it after. Unless of course someone wants to enjoy the anthem.

[Cynjin]

15 minutes ago, Buck Showalter said:

I would never endorse purppsefully trying to offend people, but I think anyone who is offended by someone "kneeling" during a song might have bigger issues to deal with.

 

Actually, you are.  So just because you don't agree with it, it's their problem.  Another great attitude.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, Narcosys said:

So your answer to it, is that millions of people should stop watching the thing they love just because a handful of people are cheapening the fun for them? So let the minority hold the majority hostage? There's a comparison there somewhere about men using women's bathrooms lol.

I watch multiple games a week a rarely watch a NA, It can be done

   

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

For the most part I agree.  However there are a lot of people trying to fix things that aren't broken.  If you think it's disrespectful to not stand during the anthem then stand during the anthem.  If you think gay marriage is wrong, then don't get married to a gay person.  If you think interracial relationships are wrong then don't be in a relationship with someone outside of your race.  If it's something that you don't like, but it's not affecting your ability to have a high quality of life other than the fact that you won't let yourself get over it, then that's the kind of thing you should ignore and just move on..focus on yourself and not what others are doing.  And just to clarify, when I say "you" I mean the collective "you", not you personally.  I don't know how you feel about the other subjects I brought up...I merely wanted to provide a few examples of things that some people consider "problems that need to be fixed" that really don't.

 

As for what you said about the NFL and their right to make this rule, I completely agree.  I never had any issue with the players kneeling but now that the NFL has made a rule about it, the players should follow it or stay in the locker room.

I 100% agree. I think you hit the nail squarely on the head here. I think it would be best summed up by this quote.

"All men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness"

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Cynjin said:

 

Actually, you are.  So just because you don't agree with it, it's their problem.  Another great attitude.

You do realize that others have opinions that may differ than yours

[Narcosys]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

I watch multiple games a week a rarely watch a NA, It can be done

   

Ya, edited my post but you replied before hand. didn't see your post about only missing the anthem. But you have those that like to watch it. 

It's free speech and I'm all for it. But as many people have said. There's better platforms for it. But if controversy is what they wanted, they got it. Just hope the message didn't get lost.

[Cynjin]

16 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

What others do

 

If I didn't see it I would not know about it, therefore it would be hard to be offended.  But that's not the case, is it?

[Jason_]

1 minute ago, Cynjin said:

 

Wow, so even though you know an action is going to offend some people you're going to do it anyway?

 

To your question, I am not policing anyone's behavior.  I just believe that I should be considerate and respectful of other peoples feelings.  I think you may be the one with the ego, considering you apparently think it's okay to intentionally be offensive. To heck with what others may feel, as long as it doesn't bother me.  Great attitude.

 

Well first that's not entirely true.  But some people get offended and bent out of shape over the simplest things and in those situations, yes I have no problem with them being offended by something I've done.  Some people really need to be knocked down a few pegs so they realize they're not the center of the universe.  

 

Have you ever heard the saying, "You can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time?"  That's one of the truest statements I've ever heard.  No matter what I do, SOMEONE is going to be offended by it.  I could very discreetly and quietly burp into my hand, say excuse me and there's still someone out there that would react as though I'd just slaughtered a crate full of kittens.  I'm not going to walk around on egg shells my entire life in hopes of trying to never offend anyone.  And if I meet someone that gets offended by something I've done, then I just don't spend time with that person anymore.  

 

But on the other hand, even though I curse like a sailor, I know my mom and sister don't really like that kind of language so I don't use profanity around them.  I don't make inappropriate jokes in a group setting unless I'm sure that no one around would be offended by it.  

[Narcosys]

8 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

For the most part I agree.  However there are a lot of people trying to fix things that aren't broken.  If you think it's disrespectful to not stand during the anthem then stand during the anthem.  If you think gay marriage is wrong, then don't get married to a gay person.  If you think interracial relationships are wrong then don't be in a relationship with someone outside of your race.  If it's something that you don't like, but it's not affecting your ability to have a high quality of life other than the fact that you won't let yourself get over it, then that's the kind of thing you should ignore and just move on..focus on yourself and not what others are doing.  And just to clarify, when I say "you" I mean the collective "you", not you personally.  I don't know how you feel about the other subjects I brought up...I merely wanted to provide a few examples of things that some people consider "problems that need to be fixed" that really don't.

 

As for what you said about the NFL and their right to make this rule, I completely agree.  I never had any issue with the players kneeling but now that the NFL has made a rule about it, the players should follow it or stay in the locker room.

 

Are you a Libertarian? I feel like you might be a Libertarian lol.  Well said.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Narcosys said:

Ya, edited my post but you replied before hand. didn't see your post about only missing the anthem. But you have those that like to watch it. 

It's free speech and I'm all for it. But as many people have said. There's better platforms for it. But if controversy is what they wanted, they got it. Just hope the message didn't get lost.

It didn’t 

[NFLfan]

29 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Yay!! See @Nadine @NFLfan I'm not the only one!! 

 

See what? It goes back to what you claimed was not so. You and others believe this: "Shut up and play. It is your problem, not mine. I am trying to watch a football game. I couldn't care less what is happening to you or folks who are not in my family." 

 

I think that is a very sad commentary on our society. But it is just my opinion.

[Buck Showalter]

3 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

Actually, you are.  So just because you don't agree with it, it's their problem.  Another great attitude.

Lol. What? 

Yeah, I don't care how other people react to a song. Some people do & it has gotten some people pretty worked up. That is too bad. But trying to enforce people to behave a certain way doesn't seem like something someone who supports a truly free country would do.

[PrincetonTiger]

2 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

If I didn't see it I would not know about it, therefore it would be hard to be offended.  But that's not the case, is it?

Not sure why you are so concerned with what others do 

[DougDew]

44 minutes ago, backshoulderfade said:

I think it is ridiculous that ones stance during an archaic tribalist song matters to anyone. It is of far more substance that these americans are exercising their right to dissent on which your country was founded.

True.  But if the dissent is based upon a misunderstanding of how it was founded, then the dissent needs to be challenged.  And if others are purposefully feeding people nonsense about how it was founded in order to elevate an agenda, they need to be called out for it. 

[Jason_]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Not sure why you are so concerned with what others do 

 

First world problems.