New Idea's For The Cap?

[BmoreColt]

So we have heard time and time again Irsay give his shpeal about the cap issue, frankly that is his and Polians fault for overpaying their own. Anyway, I am curious how accurate of a picture we can get if we all put our heads together. Also a topic nobody has mentioned is we heard about Manning taking an incentive based contract what about Luck or RG3 if the colts go that direction. It could be based on games played, so Luck could take less with the options to earn more if Manning can't physically play. So manning and Luck could count for less, then maybe Freeney, Mathis, Wayne would take lesser contracts to pursue some Lombardis in Indy. Let's see if we can come up with some cap options to make this team competitive, with Manning still in Indy. How the Colts can create room while keeping their better players and still getting players to help. Consider scheme in here as well. Let's put our heads together, what are your ideas?

[CjMcGirt23]

Luck would force a trade if asked to take an incentive based contract on top of sitting behind Manning. That's just asking for too much.

[Wyld1]

I am sure the NFLPA would have some influence on the idea of players and draft picks taking less then their market worth. This is the real world not Fantasy Football or Madden 20004ever....

I will say however, that I have always felt that here should be some sort of base pay with incentive payments in all sports. The trouble is their unions are too strong and there is too much money on the table, jmvho.

[Superman]

1) Unions don't negotiate guaranteed contracts, players and their agents do.

2) The rookie contracts are pretty much set in stone, now that the precedents have been set with last year's draft class.

[The Peytonator]

We could go to Settings and turn the Salary Cap off......oh wait.

I got nothin', other than cutting Brackett/Clark, and redoing Freeney's contract (why would he want to do that, he's making 20 mil). But also keep in mind, we're actually still in pretty good cap shape even with Peyton under contract. We'd still have a good 20+ mil to resign Mathis, Garcon, Wheeler, and Pollak, and to bring in Carl Nicks.

[Wyld1]

1) Unions don't negotiate guaranteed contracts, players and their agents do.

2) The rookie contracts are pretty much set in stone, now that the precedents have been set with last year's draft class.

The NFLPA would frown on the OP's scenario of incentive based payments, I never said they NEGOTIATE, they would however apply pressure against it. The rookie cap is a no-brainer....

[UndecidedFrog]

1) what we heard may have not been true regarding the willingness of PM to take incentive-based contract. Neither PM nor his agent confirmed or denied anything of that nature.

2) rookie contracts are set in stone. Particularly the #1 overall drafted rookie.

[Wyld1]

1) what we heard may have not been true regarding the willingness of PM to take incentive-based contract. Neither PM nor his agent confirmed or denied anything of that nature.

2) rookie contracts are set in stone. Particularly the #1 overall drafted rookie.

I agree but in the OP's scenario he has other players (Wayne) doing likewise, unless I completely read it differently? Which could be the case but I don't think it is?

[FireJimCaldwell]

1) what we heard may have not been true regarding the willingness of PM to take incentive-based contract. Neither PM nor his agent confirmed or denied anything of that nature.

2) rookie contracts are set in stone. Particularly the #1 overall drafted rookie.

Yeah it seemed Manning disputed that theory more than confirmed and even then, it's more of a low-risk set up with little to no bonus money. It's not like it would be found in the dollar bin at Target. He's still going to get paid one way or the other. It's just taking risk away from a signing bonus perspective.

[Malakai432]

We could go to Settings and turn the Salary Cap off......oh wait.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

[UndecidedFrog]

Yeah it seemed Manning disputed that theory more than confirmed and even then, it's more of a low-risk set up with little to no bonus money. It's not like it would be found in the dollar bin at Target. He's still going to get paid one way or the other. It's just taking risk away from a signing bonus perspective.

One sure way of being inscrutable is to laugh at the question raised. The asker will never know if you are confirming or denying the rumor. Then follow it up with a tautological statement like, "these reporters don't always report things accurately", to leave the asker wondering if the reported rumor is part of the somethings that are reported accurately or not . It is similar to saying that water is wet in a much more puckish manner.

[UndecidedFrog]

I agree but in the OP's scenario he has other players (Wayne) doing likewise, unless I completely read it differently? Which could be the case but I don't think it is?

The NFL has 32 teams that vie for talent, and will pay money for good talent. Granted, there will be different values placed on same talent due to the imperfections of talent evaluation. However, I think it is unlikely for a knowledgeable player to disregard his market value, and take less compensation to play on one particular team, rather than the alternative of playing on another team that compensates better, all other things being equal.

Example:

You are a widget maker. You are a top widget maker, and currently you work for a widget company A, for an annual salary of $100K in Indy.

You like your co-workers. You like your apartment in Indy. You like Indy. You like your company.

Another company, widget company B, notices your awards for winning the top widget maker of the year, and offers you an annual salary of $150K in Miami.

Do you take the better offer?

What is your liking your current company A worth against the probability that you will also like company B?

What is your liking your current co-workers worth against the probability that you will also like you co-workers in Miami?

What is your liking your current apartment in Indy worth against the probability that you will also like your apartment in Miami?

etc.

[Wyld1]

The NFL has 32 teams that vie for talent, and will pay money for good talent. Granted, there will be different values placed on same talent due to the imperfections of talent evaluation. However, I think it is unlikely for a knowledgeable player to disregard his market value, and take less compensation to play on one particular team, rather than the alternative of playing on another team that compensates better, all other things being equal.

Example:

You are a widget maker. You are a top widget maker, and currently you work for a widget company A, for an annual salary of $100K in Indy.

You like your co-workers. You like your apartment in Indy. You like Indy. You like your company.

Another company, widget company B, notices your awards for winning the top widget maker of the year, and offers you an annual salary of $150K in Miami.

Do you take the better offer?

What is your liking your current company A worth against the probability that you will also like company B?

What is your liking your current co-workers worth against the probability that you will also like you co-workers in Miami?

What is your liking your current apartment in Indy worth against the probability that you will also like your apartment in Miami?

etc.

I agree, plus the player's union wouldn't allow such a scenario as posed by the OP.

[betheafan41]

1) what we heard may have not been true regarding the willingness of PM to take incentive-based contract. Neither PM nor his agent confirmed or denied anything of that nature.

2) rookie contracts are set in stone. Particularly the #1 overall drafted rookie.

i agree everything we have been hearing is stippulation, i wanna hear it from manning hiim self in a press conference on ESPN News

[BmoreColt]

1. I didn't know all rookie contracts were set in stone.

2. The Madden reference is ridiculous.

3. I was more or less raising this to see where savings in our cap could be, to have Manning and Luck, while affording our own, and a player or two to help (excluding rookies).

4. Then there is no chance Manning would be allowed to take an incentive based deal per the NFLPA, so the idea of him renegotiating is out the window.

5. Some of these contracts of Colts players are rediculous.

[ruksak]

We could go to Settings and turn the Salary Cap off......oh wait.

hehehehe....funny

While you're at it, please turn injuries to 'off'.

[shakedownstreet]

hehehehe....funny

While you're at it, please turn injuries to 'off'.

set colts injuries to "off". set all other teams to "maximum"

i don't know why we didn't do this years ago!

[PatMcAfeeFan]

One way would be to extend Freeney's current contract. It will lower his cap hit for 2012. Ask Gary Brackett to lower his pay, if not then we should cut him. Same thing with Clark that they do with Gary. Then get Peyton to re-work his contract so it would not be filled with bonuses.

Another way would to just release Freeney, Brackett, Clark, and Manning and build a team around Luck. Younger through the draft and rookies and even younger free agents are usually really cheap and don't cause that much Cap damage.

[MR. Blueblood]

We could go to Settings and turn the Salary Cap off......oh wait.

I got nothin', other than cutting Brackett/Clark, and redoing Freeney's contract (why would he want to do that, he's making 20 mil). But also keep in mind, we're actually still in pretty good cap shape even with Peyton under contract. We'd still have a good 20+ mil to resign Mathis, Garcon, Wheeler, and Pollak, and to bring in Carl Nicks.

The Colts have 19 free agents this year, if you cut Brackett & Clark and resign Mathis, Garcon, Wheeler, and Pollak, that's still 17 positions that need to be replaced. Even at the league minimum for rookies ($390,000) that still comes to $6,630,000....so taking away from the 20 mil that gives you $13-14 mil to get the four players you mentioned signed. There's not enough money to go around.

[BmoreColt]

How do compensation picks work? Is it for players that leave in free agency only like Wayne/Mathis, or would it include traded players?

[MR. Blueblood]

How do compensation picks work? Is it for players that leave in free agency only like Wayne/Mathis, or would it include traded players?

Compensation happens when a player is a restricted free agent. All of our players are unrestricted free agents except Michael Toudouze, Jacob Lacey, and Stevie Brown.

[buccolts]

How do compensation picks work? Is it for players that leave in free agency only like Wayne/Mathis, or would it include traded players?

Mr. Blueblood answered the compensation/free agency question.

In a trade situation, what you trade for IS your compensation.

Compensatory picks is another question, which I can't answer, but I believe pertains to ANY free agent loss vs. free agents gained, and other considerations.

[MR. Blueblood]

How do compensation picks work? Is it for players that leave in free agency only like Wayne/Mathis, or would it include traded players?

Mr. Blueblood answered the compensation/free agency question.

In a trade situation, what you trade for IS your compensation.

Compensatory picks is another question, which I can't answer, but I believe pertains to ANY free agent loss vs. free agents gained, and other considerations.

The amount of compensation for a restricted free agent varies on the experience level of the player, the draft position of said player, and the amount of the tender of the contract offered to said player. A team that loses a restricted free agent can be awarded anywhere from a 1st & 3rd round pick, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, or round that the player was originally drafted in.

[UndecidedFrog]

How do compensation picks work? Is it for players that leave in free agency only like Wayne/Mathis, or would it include traded players?

A team may receive compensatory draft picks if it is determined that they lost more or better players than they were able to acquire during the previous year's free agency period according to a proprietary formula based on the player's salary, playing time, and received honors. The number of picks a team receives equals the net loss of compensatory free agents (maximum of four), and never above a 3rd round pick.

Compensatory free agents are determined by a formula that was developed by the NFL Management Council. Not every free agent lost or signed by a team is covered by this formula.

Players that you trade or release are not considered compensatory eligible.

[shakedownstreet]

The amount of compensation for a restricted free agent varies on the experience level of the player, the draft position of said player, and the amount of the tender of the contract offered to said player. A team that loses a restricted free agent can be awarded anywhere from a 1st & 3rd round pick, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, or round that the player was originally drafted in.

is that you, tom telesco?

[MR. Blueblood]

A team may receive compensatory draft picks if it is determined that they lost more or better players than they were able to acquire during the previous year's free agency period according to a proprietary formula based on the player's salary, playing time, and received honors. The number of picks a team receives equals the net loss of compensatory free agents (maximum of four), and never above a 3rd round pick.

Compensatory free agents are determined by a formula that was developed by the NFL Management Council. Not every free agent lost or signed by a team is covered by this formula.

Players that you trade or release are not considered compensatory eligible.

I'm not debating, but I'm just wondering where you found this info at? What I found was what I posted. I'd just like to know for sure, I hate saying things that aren't true.

[MR. Blueblood]

is that you, tom telesco?

Is that you The Wolf

[shakedownstreet]

Is that you The Wolf

yes i was hired by jim irsay to maintain order on west 56th street while they were cleaning house

[MR. Blueblood]

As long as you don't want to take me to Monster Joe's Truck & Tow we're all good.

[shakedownstreet]

As long as you don't want to take me to Monster Joe's Truck & Tow we're all good.

oh come on, just hop in the trunk. it's a lot of fun to ride in there

[UndecidedFrog]

I'm not debating, but I'm just wondering where you found this info at? What I found was what I posted. I'd just like to know for sure, I hate saying things that aren't true.

The information I provided applies to Compensatory picks. Not compensation for picks.

There is a difference. I interpreted the original question to ask for the process how compensatory picks are determined.

http://football.abou...l_draftcomp.htm

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?confirm=true&id=09000d5d81716904&template=with-video-with-comments

[MR. Blueblood]

The information I provided applies to Compensatory picks. Not compensation for picks.

There is a difference. I interpreted the original question to ask for the process how compensatory picks are determined.

http://football.abou...l_draftcomp.htm

http://www.nfl.com/d...o-with-comments

Thanks!

[MR. Blueblood]

oh come on, just hop in the trunk. it's a lot of fun to ride in there

Nah, thanks for the offer though. Every time I touch brains I'm like superfly TNT, I'm like the guns of the Navarone. And seeing as how Marvin got shot in the face and is in there I'll take a pass

[OldManP]

Who is Idea?

[Superman]

The NFLPA would frown on the OP's scenario of incentive based payments, I never said they NEGOTIATE, they would however apply pressure against it. The rookie cap is a no-brainer....

There are players with incentive-based contracts in the NFL. I might exaggerate by saying that every player has performance bonuses, but probably not by much.

[UndecidedFrog]

There are players with incentive-based contracts in the NFL. I might exaggerate by saying that every player has performance bonuses, but probably not by much.

There are incentive bonuses, and then there are incentive bonuses.

Incentive bonuses that are likely to be earned (# games played, # TDs thrown comparable to previous year's TDs thrown) or LTBE are counted in the salary cap.

Incentive bonuses that are unlikely to be earned (ULTBE) are not. The determination is determined by a special NFL committee that reviews these types of things.

[Superman]

There are incentive bonuses, and then there are incentive bonuses.

Incentive bonuses that are likely to be earned (# games played, # TDs thrown comparable to previous year's TDs thrown) or LTBE are counted in the salary cap.

Incentive bonuses that are unlikely to be earned (ULTBE) are not. The determination is determined by a special NFL committee that reviews these types of things.

Absolutely.

[Wyld1]

There are players with incentive-based contracts in the NFL. I might exaggerate by saying that every player has performance bonuses, but probably not by much.

Of course there is but not as proposed in the original post. The NFLPA would strongly disuade multiple players taking this type of contract to help with the cap. I personally agree with the premise and have always felt a fair base pay with incentive goals would be better all around...jmo, doesn't make it right ;)