Manning: Could They Just Cut Or Release Him And Then Sign Him Again?

[mammo]

This deal with the huge bonus, could they just cut or release him and then sign him again? i have no idea how it works, or what the rules are in the cba, i really only know a cba exists.

But is there no way to make the previous contract go away, then just sign him again? In other words tear that contract up, and create a new one?

also when he gets cut or released, or whatever way to make the bonus go away, he could just keep rehabbing and then sign later... or is it all not that simple?

[FireJimCaldwell]

This deal with the huge bonus, could they just cut or release him and then sign him again? i have no idea how it works, or what the rules are in the cba, i really only know a cba exists.

But is there no way to make the previous contract go away, then just sign him again? In other words tear that contract up, and create a new one?

There is no way to do that.

If we do not pick up the bonus and release him, we will have an acceleration of 10.4 of dead cap space in to the 2012 cap.

While theoretically we could sign him, that will only make his cap # for 2012 go up.

If we pick up the bonus, his 2012 cap hit is 17

If we do not pick up the bonus and release him he will count 10.4 against our cap.

[mammo]

is there somewhere i can read up on all this, i wouldnt want someone to outline all this for me. Or is this all to do with whats in his contract?

[FireJimCaldwell]

is there somewhere i can read up on all this, i wouldnt want someone to outline all this for me. Or is this all to do with whats in his contract?

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-1.html

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-2.html

[SilentHill]

There is no way to do that.

If we do not pick up the bonus and release him, we will have an acceleration of 10.4 of dead cap space in to the 2012 cap.

While theoretically we could sign him, that will only make his cap # for 2012 go up.

If we pick up the bonus, his 2012 cap hit is 17

If we do not pick up the bonus and release him he will count 10.4 against our cap.

Can the contract be re-negotiated?

[FireJimCaldwell]

Can the contract be re-negotiated?

Prior to the due date? In my opinion no.

After the due date? It most certainly can, but if the bonus is paid, the damage is done and can't be retracted. What I mean by that is that any renegotiation wouldn't adjust the cap penalties that we would incur if Manning were to be traded or released in the next few years.

[Case]

Grasping for straws

[buccolts]

Grasping for straws

Perhaps just getting a feel for the possibilities.

What's the impact if he retires (Favre), then un-retires and signs with the Colts in, let's say, June, when his nerves are regenerated (assumption, I know)?

[FireJimCaldwell]

Perhaps just getting a feel for the possibilities.

What's the impact if he retires (Favre), then un-retires and signs with the Colts in, let's say, June, when his nerves are regenerated (assumption, I know)?

Same as above.

If we do not pick up the bonus and release him and he retires we will have an acceleration of 10.4 of dead cap space in to the 2012 cap.

While theoretically we could re-sign him, that will only make his cap # for 2012 go up.

[oldunclemark]

This deal with the huge bonus, could they just cut or release him and then sign him again? i have no idea how it works, or what the rules are in the cba, i really only know a cba exists.

But is there no way to make the previous contract go away, then just sign him again? In other words tear that contract up, and create a new one?

also when he gets cut or released, or whatever way to make the bonus go away, he could just keep rehabbing and then sign later... or is it all not that simple?

You actualy have hit on what i think will be the eventual solution....

It depends on what you re-sign him for...

..we carry the 'cap money'.......I believe 11 million or so...even if we cut him

But if you resign him to a back-loaded contract...

you greatly reduce the actual money laid out this year.

...Example: If you sign him to a contact for the veteran minimum.....and spread the $28 mil over the final 2 or 3 years f the deal..

Of course the cap goes up then (in 2014 and 2015) but certain players (Saturday, Wayne, Freeney) wont be her in 2015 anyway.

..and the cap limit goes up for everyone in 2 or 3 years..

It could work. and it will. This is what i think will happen..

[WSO]

You actualy have hit on what i think will be the eventual solution....

It depends on what you re-sign him for...

..we carry the 'cap money'.......I believe 11 million or so...even if we cut him

But if you resign him to a back-loaded contract...

you greatly reduce the actual money laid out this year.

...Example: If you sign him to a contact for the veteran minimum.....and spread the $28 mil over the final 2 or 3 years f the deal..

Of course the cap goes up then (in 2014 and 2015) but certain players (Saturday, Wayne, Freeney) wont be her in 2015 anyway.

..and the cap limit goes up for everyone in 2 or 3 years..

It could work. and it will. This is what i think will happen..

Why would Manning want to be paid more in his later years? Any NFL player who knows he has a limited time left before hanging it up would want the money front loaded (which is what Manning has now). I know Manning already has enough $$$ in the bank but on the flipside I guarantee some other team out there will offer a lot more for Manning than the Colts will if he becomes a F/A.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Why would Manning want to be paid more in his later years? Any NFL player who knows he has a limited time left before hanging it up would want the money front loaded (which is what Manning has now). I know Manning already has enough $$$ in the bank but on the flipside I guarantee some other team out there will offer a lot more for Manning than the Colts will if he becomes a F/A.

It goes back to a person needing to have an understanding of the cap before commenting about it.

[oldunclemark]

Why would Manning want to be paid more in his later years? Any NFL player who knows he has a limited time left before hanging it up would want the money front loaded (which is what Manning has now). I know Manning already has enough $$$ in the bank but on the flipside I guarantee some other team out there will offer a lot more for Manning than the Colts will if he becomes a F/A.

Good arguement....but

Mammo's question was: Is it possible if Manning wants to stay.

You'd have to agree it is possible..

[WSO]

Good arguement....but

Mammo's question was: Is it possible if Manning wants to stay.

You'd have to agree it is possible..

Its possible but depending on the cap hit, it wouldnt make much sense to cut Manning and re-sign him. From what I understand there would be a 10M cap hit + whatever his new contract's cap hit. Really logically Manning will either be cut or retained. And if he is cut he is probably not going to come back to the Colts. I will bet my account that some other team with QB needs will pony up a lot of cash.

[BelieveinB]

Why would Manning want to be paid more in his later years? Any NFL player who knows he has a limited time left before hanging it up would want the money front loaded (which is what Manning has now). I know Manning already has enough $$$ in the bank but on the flipside I guarantee some other team out there will offer a lot more for Manning than the Colts will if he becomes a F/A.

I don't believe for some reason thats its about the Money. His yearly salary for endorsments I sure far out weighs his football salary. Peyton Manning may be one of the few in history that would care more about finishing what he started where he started than money. Time will tell but I can't imagine that PM would have rested his financial future on his last contract. I wouldn't see him haiving interest in leaving because even though he'd be in new system with new faces here, thats exactly what he would face on any other team x's 2 At leats here he'd have some familiarity here with players and some staff, home and community ties.

[buccolts]

Same as above.

If we do not pick up the bonus and release him and he retires we will have an acceleration of 10.4 of dead cap space in to the 2012 cap.

While theoretically we could re-sign him, that will only make his cap # for 2012 go up.

O.K., thanks.

[WSO]

I don't believe for some reason thats its about the Money. His yearly salary for endorsments I sure far out weighs his football salary. Peyton Manning may be one of the few in history that would care more about finishing what he started where he started than money. Time will tell but I can't imagine that PM would have rested his financial future on his last contract. I wouldn't see him haiving interest in leaving because even though he'd be in new system with new faces here, thats exactly what he would face on any other team x's 2 At leats here he'd have some familiarity here with players and some staff, home and community ties.

Why else would his contract be front loaded right now? If he didnt want the money, why else is he being paid so much his first few years instead of maintaining the contract worth over the 5 years equally? From my understanding his cap hit actually gets worse later into his contract too granted its only by a little.

[FireJimCaldwell]

O.K., thanks.

No problem... If he were to retire after the bonus were paid then it would get tricky and it would turn to what his contract actually says on whether or not it is guaranteed for injury or not. That question can't be answered by anyone without the actual document.

[oldunclemark]

Its possible but depending on the cap hit, it wouldnt make much sense to cut Manning and re-sign him. From what I understand there would be a 10M cap hit + whatever his new contract's cap hit. Really logically Manning will either be cut or retained. And if he is cut he is probably not going to come back to the Colts. I will bet my account that some other team with QB needs will pony up a lot of cash.

AL .....Manning has huge ties in Indy...

That's why he would agree to be cut and resigned...

family..The Peyton Mannng Children's Hospital..The Peyback Foundation..right?

Hes in no hurry to leave...and he might want to sit out 2012 and try to play in 2013..

Its not just a football decision.

What I dont understnd is why Irsay and Manning arent talking regularly...What is it we dont know?

[seeblu]

Peyton's predicament part one....

While Eli Manning will be one of the starting quarterbacks next week in the Super Bowl in Indianapolis, the biggest decision in the NFL this offseason will involve his older brother and the team that plays in Indianapolis. TheColts will have to decide if their future includes one Peyton Manning, the signature player and face of the franchise for the past thirteen years.

As for the Colts’ other big decision in 2012 -- who to take with the top pick in the 2012 Draft -- they have plenty of time but that's an easy decision: select Andrew Luck, with or without Peyton Manning.

Six weeks before that decision, for Colts owner Jim Irsay and new general manager Ryan Grigson, there is this little matter of Peyton Manning and his contract.

There are several layers to this decision that need to be peeled away, and Irsay and Colts must be both prudent and sensitive to Manning.

Contract expirations

In 2011, for the second time in his career with the team, the Colts allowed Manning’s contract to expire. It is curious that the Colts’ allowed the face of the franchise’s contract to lapse, something that has also now happened in New Orleans with Drew Brees. In both cases, the players and agent Tom Condon, frustrated by the pace of the negotiations, decided that they would be better served as free agents.

This was not the first time that Manning’s contract ran out as a Colt. Manning's rookie contract, signed in 1998, also played out. In both 2004 and 2011, the expired contracts were landmark deals -- the largest rookie and veteran contracts in the history of the NFL when negotiated. In both cases, the Colts followed such expiration by placing the Franchise Tag (Tag) on Manning, preventing him from going to the marketplace (which would have caused Irsay and president Bill Polian to enroll in witness protection in Indianapolis:).

The 2011 deal

Soon after the 2011 lockout ended, the Colts negotiated a new contract for Manning. And, like the two previous Manning contracts, it once again set a new standard for top compensation in the NFL.

Looking at the traditional markers for contracts, the deal had a couple twists. The total value of $90 million over five years, an Average Per Year (APY) of $18 million is identical to the APY achieved by Tom Brady a year prior. It was important to Manning at the time to not surpass Brady's APY.

The three-year value of the contract, however, tells a different story. Manning is scheduled to earn – if a Colt for the next two seasons (more below) – a total of $70.2 million over the first three years of the deal, a staggering $23.4 million APY that shatters any existing three-year value for all NFL contracts.

Beyond the five-year and three-year values, the crux of the deal centers on a decision to be made in the next two months that determines the true value of this deal.

Ominous option

The Colts must affirmatively exercise an option clause to continue to have Manning’s services for 2012 through 2015. The window of time for which that option must be exercised is between “two days following the Super Bowl until five days prior to the 2012 League Year.” In calendar terms, the Super Bowl is February 5th; the start of the 2012 League Year is March 13th. Thus, the Colts must exercise the option to keep Manning – or not – in a one month period between February 7th and March 8th.

This option is the crucial clause of Manning’s $90 million contract. And it will shape the Colts (or another franchise) for 2012 and beyond.

Let's look at that option....

Why the option?

The structure of Manning's contract shows a clear intent by Condon and Manning: they wanted the Colts to commit to Manning – or allow him his freedom – beyond 2011.

Manning and Condon have forced the Colts to essentially choose between two contracts for Manning: (1) a one-year, $26.4 million deal for 2011, or (2) a five-year, $90 million deal with $70 million in the first three years.

Manning and Condon were determined to not allow the Colts a structure that allowed them an exit after Manning reached a certain age of expected decline, a fate experienced by accomplished NFL players every year.

What happens if the Colts exercise the option?

If the Colts inform Manning during that window of time that they will pick up the option, they will continue to have him as their quarterback – assuming he is healthy – and will move forward with him as their leader.

That decision will cost the Colts the following:

Option bonus: $28 million

Salaries (in millions):

2012: 7.4

2013: 8.4

2014: 9.4

2015: 10.4

Thus, in 2012 alone, if the option is exercised, Manning will make $35.4 million. As to those suggesting the Colts could exercise the option, putting them on the hook for $28 million, and then trade Manning, I would highly doubt that scenario. Irsay may be a bit eccentric, but he is not going to spend $28 million to then have another team receive that value. He does not want to trade Peyton Manning, and will certainly not do so after paying him $28 million!

Thus, if the option is exercised, on top of the $26.4 million Manning made in 2011, Manning's earnings for the two-year period of 2011-12 will be almost $62 million. He will be a Colt for the life of his career and be paid more than any player in the NFL for such career.

Manning + Luck = $50 million for 2012

If the Colts exercise the option and also select Luck with the top pick in the Draft, they will be committing over $50 million for the quarterback position in 2012. While Luck’s overall compensation will "only" be approximately $23 million over four years, he will receive a signing bonus and salary of more than $15 million in the first year of his deal. That is an untenable amount of money for that position, especially when the Colts paid over $32 million at quarterback in 2011.

Where things get interesting with the Peyton Manning decision, however, is if the Colts do not exercise the option. I'll address that, and the confusing issue of whether the option date can be moved or not, in Part 2 later this week. Stay tuned.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-1.html&page=2

[WSO]

AL .....Manning has huge ties in Indy...

That's why he would agree to be cut and resigned...

family..The Peyton Mannng Children's Hospital..The Peyback Foundation..right?

Hes in no hurry to leave...and he might want to sit out 2012 and try to play in 2013..

Its not just a football decision.

What I dont understnd is why Irsay and Manning arent talking regularly...What is it we dont know?

Look at it in the grand scheme of things. Everything is brand new from top to bottom. New GM, new coaches, potentially new players (with all the free agents the Colts have). Everyone is basically gone except CC and some other lower tier coaches. All the notable Colts from this past era will likely be gone next season. Edge is gone, Harrison retired. Wayne likely will not be back(he said he wont make it easy). Outside of Manning, Edge, Harrison, and Wayne were all great Colts. None of em will be here (if Wayne leaves) next season. The last piece of this era will be Manning. Now look at that picture. New GM, new coaches, new players, old Colts gone. Brand new team. And you tell me, does it look like Manning is coming back? Manning himself said he didn't like seeing all his old friends (coaches) go.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Peyton's predicament part one....

While Eli Manning will be one of the starting quarterbacks next week in the Super Bowl in Indianapolis, the biggest decision in the NFL this offseason will involve his older brother and the team that plays in Indianapolis. TheColts will have to decide if their future includes one Peyton Manning, the signature player and face of the franchise for the past thirteen years.

As for the Colts’ other big decision in 2012 -- who to take with the top pick in the 2012 Draft -- they have plenty of time but that's an easy decision: select Andrew Luck, with or without Peyton Manning.

Six weeks before that decision, for Colts owner Jim Irsay and new general manager Ryan Grigson, there is this little matter of Peyton Manning and his contract.

There are several layers to this decision that need to be peeled away, and Irsay and Colts must be both prudent and sensitive to Manning.

Contract expirations

In 2011, for the second time in his career with the team, the Colts allowed Manning’s contract to expire. It is curious that the Colts’ allowed the face of the franchise’s contract to lapse, something that has also now happened in New Orleans with Drew Brees. In both cases, the players and agent Tom Condon, frustrated by the pace of the negotiations, decided that they would be better served as free agents.

This was not the first time that Manning’s contract ran out as a Colt. Manning's rookie contract, signed in 1998, also played out. In both 2004 and 2011, the expired contracts were landmark deals -- the largest rookie and veteran contracts in the history of the NFL when negotiated. In both cases, the Colts followed such expiration by placing the Franchise Tag (Tag) on Manning, preventing him from going to the marketplace (which would have caused Irsay and president Bill Polian to enroll in witness protection in Indianapolis:).

The 2011 deal

Soon after the 2011 lockout ended, the Colts negotiated a new contract for Manning. And, like the two previous Manning contracts, it once again set a new standard for top compensation in the NFL.

Looking at the traditional markers for contracts, the deal had a couple twists. The total value of $90 million over five years, an Average Per Year (APY) of $18 million is identical to the APY achieved by Tom Brady a year prior. It was important to Manning at the time to not surpass Brady's APY.

The three-year value of the contract, however, tells a different story. Manning is scheduled to earn – if a Colt for the next two seasons (more below) – a total of $70.2 million over the first three years of the deal, a staggering $23.4 million APY that shatters any existing three-year value for all NFL contracts.

Beyond the five-year and three-year values, the crux of the deal centers on a decision to be made in the next two months that determines the true value of this deal.

Ominous option

The Colts must affirmatively exercise an option clause to continue to have Manning’s services for 2012 through 2015. The window of time for which that option must be exercised is between “two days following the Super Bowl until five days prior to the 2012 League Year.” In calendar terms, the Super Bowl is February 5th; the start of the 2012 League Year is March 13th. Thus, the Colts must exercise the option to keep Manning – or not – in a one month period between February 7th and March 8th.

This option is the crucial clause of Manning’s $90 million contract. And it will shape the Colts (or another franchise) for 2012 and beyond.

Let's look at that option....

Why the option?

The structure of Manning's contract shows a clear intent by Condon and Manning: they wanted the Colts to commit to Manning – or allow him his freedom – beyond 2011.

Manning and Condon have forced the Colts to essentially choose between two contracts for Manning: (1) a one-year, $26.4 million deal for 2011, or (2) a five-year, $90 million deal with $70 million in the first three years.

Manning and Condon were determined to not allow the Colts a structure that allowed them an exit after Manning reached a certain age of expected decline, a fate experienced by accomplished NFL players every year.

What happens if the Colts exercise the option?

If the Colts inform Manning during that window of time that they will pick up the option, they will continue to have him as their quarterback – assuming he is healthy – and will move forward with him as their leader.

That decision will cost the Colts the following:

Option bonus: $28 million

Salaries (in millions):

2012: 7.4

2013: 8.4

2014: 9.4

2015: 10.4

Thus, in 2012 alone, if the option is exercised, Manning will make $35.4 million. As to those suggesting the Colts could exercise the option, putting them on the hook for $28 million, and then trade Manning, I would highly doubt that scenario. Irsay may be a bit eccentric, but he is not going to spend $28 million to then have another team receive that value. He does not want to trade Peyton Manning, and will certainly not do so after paying him $28 million!

Thus, if the option is exercised, on top of the $26.4 million Manning made in 2011, Manning's earnings for the two-year period of 2011-12 will be almost $62 million. He will be a Colt for the life of his career and be paid more than any player in the NFL for such career.

Manning + Luck = $50 million for 2012

If the Colts exercise the option and also select Luck with the top pick in the Draft, they will be committing over $50 million for the quarterback position in 2012. While Luck’s overall compensation will "only" be approximately $23 million over four years, he will receive a signing bonus and salary of more than $15 million in the first year of his deal. That is an untenable amount of money for that position, especially when the Colts paid over $32 million at quarterback in 2011.

Where things get interesting with the Peyton Manning decision, however, is if the Colts do not exercise the option. I'll address that, and the confusing issue of whether the option date can be moved or not, in Part 2 later this week. Stay tuned.

http://www.nationalf...t-1.html&page=2

Part 2

Peyton Predicament, Part 1 is here, detailing what would happen if Manning’s option were exercised. Where things get interesting is if the Colts do not exercise the option.

Non-exercise fee

Were the Colts to not exercise the $28 million option by March 8th, there is a non-exercise fee of that same $28 million due two days before the 2012 League Year, March 11th.

Translation: the Colts cannot simply let the option date pass without action; to do so would put them on the hook for the same amount and not have Manning. They will have to take the affirmative step of, yes, releasing Peyton Manning.

Free agent like no other

Assuming Manning is healthy – and that may be the biggest “if” of this entire discussion – he may be the most attractive free agent in the history of football. Simply, elite quarterbacks such as Peyton Manning never hit the open market; this is why such ransoms are paid in trades for quarterbacks such as Jay Cutler and Carson Palmer.

As a released player rather than an unrestricted free agent whose contract has expired, the Colts can neither (1) place the Franchise tag on Manning, nor (2) receive a 2013 compensatory draft pick if Manning signs elsewhere.

Again, it is curious why the Colts would agree to this poorly timed option clause, but Manning used his leverage to create options for himself.

Moving the date

As to the Colts needing to decide by March 8th – before the 2012 League Year and trading period begin on March 13th – many ask “Can’t Peyton push the date back?” Theoretically, perhaps. Practically, doubtful.

As to moving the date, the CBA prevents renegotiations of contracts following the last regular season game of the League Year within which the date is in. The March 8th date is in the 2011 League Year, as the 2012 League Year begins on March 13th.Manning and agent Tom Condon negotiated, in effect, a“no-trade clause” without it actually being designated as such.

The NFL Management Council would interpret the language to allow the date to be moved, suggesting a moved date is not a "renegotiation". The NFL Players Association's lawyers have a different interpretation of that language, and could contest a moved date as a renegotiation in a grievance against the NFL and the Colts.However, that discussion may be moot due to the following...

Why move the date?

Manning is in limbo right now, both medically and contractually. The medical part may be out of his control and up to Mother Nature. The contract, however, is totally in his control. He will want to know his fate as soon as possible, needing March 8th to get here as quickly as it can. Why would he prolong that?

Even if Manning were allowed and amenable to moving the date, he would not want to move it past the first couple days of the new League Year – March 13th – so if the Colts release him he would be on the market when teams make their quarterback decisions. And, of course, his neck condition will not be dramatically different in a week’s time.

As to a potential trade...

Trade? No

The only reason I could surmise why Manning would move the option date back is to allow the Colts to receive some compensation for his services and trade him. However, Irsay has said he will not trade Manning, and being traded is certainly not in Manning’s best interests. He can become free to sign with any team in the NFL, rather than be limited to negotiating with one team through a trade.

From the Colts' perspective, they would certainly like to have the benefit of time to monitor the situation longer. But they are not the party in this negotiation with leverage.

Irsay’s call

Reading between the lines from interviews, tweets and perhaps conversations with confidante Rob Lowe, my sense is that what Irsay truly wants is for Manning to retire. Since he does not want to cut or trade Peyton Manning, that leaves two options: (1) going forward with the financial and organizational commitment to a player that has been the past and may be the present, but probably not the future, or (2) hoping Manning will retire, certainly with some continuing role on the team.

The problem for Irsay is that Manning – despite no immediate assurances from the medical side – wants to play.

What I would do

As hard as it is to part with the face of the franchise, I would move on.

The confluence of three factors – (1) a massive financial commitment required -- $35.4 million in 2012 alone, (2)an uncertain neck condition involving regeneration of nerves (this is not a shoulder or knee injury), and (3) a special player in Luck, available for half the price at the same position – all conspire towards a parting of ways.

Like the Packers and Brett Favre, the Colts would prefer a nice, easy retirement from their longtime superstar, with a non-playing role with the team to come. Sometimes, however, the script does not have a clean and tidy ending.

And like the Favre-Packers situation four years ago, there is a growing sense that change is in the air. Favre was not feeling any warmth or courtship from the front office that he had felt in prior years. The same appears true with Manning, and public relations spinning has begun. Things could get a bit messy; emotions will run high.

My sense is -- with a new general manager, a new coach and potentially a new quarterback, we are seeing an end of an era in Indianapolis. The inexorable march of time and turnover of players in the NFL continues, even at the highest levels. Even the best of NFL careers -- which Manning's certainly has been and may continue to be -- rarely end well.

March 8th beckons, with the eyes of the football world upon it.

Follow me on Twitter at adbrandt.

http://www.nationalf...ent-Part-2.html

Added part 2 for everyone.

The more it is read the better off this site will be.

[oldunclemark]

Look at it in the grand scheme of things. Everything is brand new from top to bottom. New GM, new coaches, potentially new players (with all the free agents the Colts have). Everyone is basically gone except CC and some other lower tier coaches. All the notable Colts from this past era will likely be gone next season. Edge is gone, Harrison retired. Wayne likely will not be back(he said he wont make it easy). Outside of Manning, Edge, Harrison, and Wayne were all great Colts. None of em will be here (if Wayne leaves) next season. The last piece of this era will be Manning. Now look at that picture. New GM, new coaches, new players, old Colts gone. Brand new team. And you tell me, does it look like Manning is coming back? Manning himself said he didn't like seeing all his old friends (coaches) go.

But AL..

The question was: is it possible...

I know many now dont want him back...and for writers and cable TV folks....its a MUCH BIGGER STORY if he leaves

But - even with all the Irsay drama...

Of course its possible for Manning to be cut, resigned and start at QB next fall. Of course it is

[No 1 Manning Fan]

This deal with the huge bonus, could they just cut or release him and then sign him again? i have no idea how it works, or what the rules are in the cba, i really only know a cba exists.

But is there no way to make the previous contract go away, then just sign him again? In other words tear that contract up, and create a new one?

also when he gets cut or released, or whatever way to make the bonus go away, he could just keep rehabbing and then sign later... or is it all not that simple?

Even if this was possible, why would Manning sign with them after being cheated out of $28 million?

[oldunclemark]

Even if this was possible, why would Manning sign with them after being cheated out of $28 million?

'Because he banked $25 mil in 2011 for not playing...?

[No 1 Manning Fan]

'Because he banked $25 mil in 2011 for not playing...?

There is no way. If you believe that, you are dreaming. Manning is the ultimate team player, but everybody has limits. He is going to want what he was promised. That's human nature. When people don't get what they're promised, they feel cheated. That would be cheating him out of money, and that would definitely lead to a bad relationship between Irsay and Manning.

[oldunclemark]

There is no way. If you believe that, you are dreaming. Manning is the ultimate team player, but everybody has limits. He is going to want what he was promised. That's human nature. When people don't get what they're promised, they feel cheated. That would be cheating him out of money, and that would definitely lead to a bad relationship between Irsay and Manning.

But the question again is: is it possible?

Of course Manning could play for minimum in 2012 because he banked $25 mil for not playing in 2011.

Is it possible Manning would not feel cheated in that scenario.....?

He got $25 mil. Of course its possible..

[No 1 Manning Fan]

But the question again is: is it possible? Of course Manning could play for minimum in 2012 because he banked $25 mil for not playing in 2011. Is it possible Manning would not feel cheated in that scenario.....? He got $25 mil. Of course its possible..

Looking at it from an employee's perspective, I don't think so. He got hurt playing for the Colts. He had surgery and has been going through rehab. He also helped out with back up QBs. He didn't exactly take the year off and cash in millions while living it up on the Amalfi coast. It's not like he is the only player that has ever been hurt and been paid. It's actually quite normal. So, why would he feel like he should give up a bonus? Because he's done what most injured athletes have done? No, I don't think it is possible. If it is in the contract that he is owed the money, I don't think it is possible that he wouldn't feel cheated.

[oldunclemark]

Looking at it from an employee's perspective, I don't think so. He got hurt playing for the Colts. He had surgery and has been going through rehab. He also helped out with back up QBs. He didn't exactly take the year off and cash in millions while living it up on the Amalfi coast. It's not like he is the only player that has ever been hurt and been paid. It's actually quite normal. So, why would he feel like he should give up a bonus? Because he's done what most injured athletes have done? No, I don't think it is possible. If it is in the contract that he is owed the money, I don't think it is possible that he wouldn't feel cheated.

All true if he was giving it up....but what if he was simply pushin it back

The sceanrio is: they would defer ithe $28 mil to later years....They could even defer it until after he retires...

Plus it might be HIS IDEA..so they could pay Wayne and Mathis and the team could continue to win..

I dont think (despite what happened yesterday) that Colts and Peyton are adversaries...

They want to go back to the playoffs in 2012

.....to defer payments on a contract signed after the cut him and resign him is ceratainly an agreement Irsay and Manning could reach.

the problem is: they foolishly say they arent going to begin to discuss anything until the deadline..looms

[FireJimCaldwell]

If he is released the 28 million is out of the equation, it's no longer a part of the contract and there is an acceleration of 10.4 million into the 2012 salary cap.

If he were to resign, it would be to new terms, possibly a new signing bonus, which for cap purposes is paid when it is SIGNED, hence signing bonus, and would then be prorated over the life of the new contract. There would be new base salaries, starting at a bare minimum of 925.

So 2012's cap for Manning if he were resigned would look like this.

10.4 dead cap space hit.

a minimum base salary of 925k( of course it could be higher as well)

a prorated portion of a signing bonus. 15/3 years would 5. 12/2 would be 6, etc. 10 over 4, would be 2.5... You plug in any # and divide by the # of years to get an idea.

It's not a very likely scenario.

[CS Colts Fan]

I believe the writing is on the wall and many don't want to see it or admit it..

I believe it will come down to 2 things

1. his health (obviously)

2. Does he want another ring..

** that is the kicker.. if he does and we know that answer he see's that possibilty with the colts in the next 3 years is minimal.. because we will draft a QB and most likely Luck.. IF he is 100% with the new coaching staff He could Hope & Pray that they draft ohter pieces to make them team ready now.. highly unlikely after 2011..

It is a New Colts ERA Guys get used to it.. we will be a better team and win more rings in the near / future..

[Superman]

If we pick up the bonus, his 2012 cap hit is 17

If we do not pick up the bonus and release him he will count 10.4 against our cap.

You could technically cut him, then sign him for a small deal, and save money. But that's not likely to happen.

But the numbers you post are the main reason I don't see this as a cap issue. If we cut him, we have $10 million in dead cap space. Draft Luck, sign a backup quarterback or two, and you're at about $6-9 million in cap space for active quarterbacks. Add in the dead cap space, and you're back up to almost $20 million for quarterbacks.

If you keep Manning, he has a $16 million cap hit. Draft Luck, $4-5 million cap hit. Sign another backup quarterback, $1-2 million cap hit. Now you're at $20-23 million for quarterbacks. But you have Manning and Luck. That's worth $4 or 5 million to me.

There's real money savings to opting out of Manning's contract. I don't care about that. That's Irsay's problem. I get it if he wants to do that. But the cap savings isn't that great to opt-out until 2013 or 2014, if I understand correctly. By then, the new TV money should kick in and the cap should go up pretty aggressively.

[FireJimCaldwell]

You could technically cut him, then sign him for a small deal, and save money. But that's not likely to happen.

But the numbers you post are the main reason I don't see this as a cap issue. If we cut him, we have $10 million in dead cap space. Draft Luck, sign a backup quarterback or two, and you're at about $6-9 million in cap space for active quarterbacks. Add in the dead cap space, and you're back up to almost $20 million for quarterbacks.

If you keep Manning, he has a $16 million cap hit. Draft Luck, $4-5 million cap hit. Sign another backup quarterback, $1-2 million cap hit. Now you're at $20-23 million for quarterbacks. But you have Manning and Luck. That's worth $4 or 5 million to me.

There's real money savings to opting out of Manning's contract. I don't care about that. That's Irsay's problem. I get it if he wants to do that. But the cap savings isn't that great to opt-out until 2013 or 2014, if I understand correctly. By then, the new TV money should kick in and the cap should go up pretty aggressively.

I see your point, and while

Cap #'s (again Luck's are based off a 5% bump in Cam Newton's deal)

Manning Luck
2011  $16,000,000.00  0
2012  $17,000,000.00   $4,204,725.00
2013  $18,000,000.00   $5,255,941.95
2014  $19,000,000.00   $6,307,158.90
2015  $20,000,000.00   $7,358,375.85
Total  $90,000,000.00   $23,126,201.70

They aren't horrible but they sure aren't optimal.

When you add in the cash being paid out.

Manning Luck
2011  $26,400,000.00  0
2012  $35,400,000.00   $15,637,650.00
2013  $8,400,000.00   $1,444,966.95
2014  $9,400,000.00   $2,496,183.90
2015  $10,400,000.00   $3,547,400.85
Total  $90,000,000.00   $23,126,201.70

That is a lot of coin for just 2 players... It would be more beneficial to have two elite Wide Receivers, say Calvin & Andre Johnson, but putting that much money in the QB position when it's not likely that one won't be happy to sit for 4 years, and if the other doesn't play for 4 years it creates cap issues. It's just not a flattering picture.

I agree that it's Irsay's problem, but when you have 87,85, & 98 wanting deals. 93 will need a chunk of change to convert his contract into an extension. 84 is due. 63, is due.. That's a lot for any given year.

The TV contracts kick in in 2014, and even then it would be hard to swallow 19 million of dead space for Manning if they decided to trade him. The following year it's a more manageable 9 million, but will Luck be happy to sit that long?

Having Manning start and Luck on the bench would be a nice luxury/insurance policy but it comes at a high premium.

[fvantagio]

Why would Manning want to be paid more in his later years? Any NFL player who knows he has a limited time left before hanging it up would want the money front loaded (which is what Manning has now). I know Manning already has enough $$$ in the bank but on the flipside I guarantee some other team out there will offer a lot more for Manning than the Colts will if he becomes a F/A.

So he could win another ring or 2?

[WSO]

You could technically cut him, then sign him for a small deal, and save money. But that's not likely to happen.

But the numbers you post are the main reason I don't see this as a cap issue. If we cut him, we have $10 million in dead cap space. Draft Luck, sign a backup quarterback or two, and you're at about $6-9 million in cap space for active quarterbacks. Add in the dead cap space, and you're back up to almost $20 million for quarterbacks.

If you keep Manning, he has a $16 million cap hit. Draft Luck, $4-5 million cap hit. Sign another backup quarterback, $1-2 million cap hit. Now you're at $20-23 million for quarterbacks. But you have Manning and Luck. That's worth $4 or 5 million to me.

There's real money savings to opting out of Manning's contract. I don't care about that. That's Irsay's problem. I get it if he wants to do that. But the cap savings isn't that great to opt-out until 2013 or 2014, if I understand correctly. By then, the new TV money should kick in and the cap should go up pretty aggressively.

If you take Manning @ 10.4 (cut) and Luck @ 4.2 that is $14.6m. What backup 2nd string QB is going to make that figure stretch to 20mill? No backup QB to Luck is going to have a 5 -6 mill cap hit (unless they stupidly keep Collins whos cap hit is big) You are stretching that number way too far. We aren't signing some big name F/A as a 2nd stringer. Curtis Painters cap hit next season for example is 588k.

You're saving about 5m - 6m in cap space depending on whomever backs up Luck if Manning is cut.

[WSO]

So he could win another ring or 2?

Manning is being paid MORE in his first few years but his cap hit/ salary increase towards the later year but he gets no bonuses. If Mannings contract was in reverse, the Colts would take a 20mill cap hit this year instead of 16m. Manning is making more money in his first few years of the contract and less in the later years but the cap hit gets worse each year.

[Quantum88]

Same as above.

If we do not pick up the bonus and release him and he retires we will have an acceleration of 10.4 of dead cap space in to the 2012 cap.

While theoretically we could re-sign him, that will only make his cap # for 2012 go up.

Yes, his hit on the cap goes up, but if the contract is for substantially less in terms of roster bonus and more incentive laden because of the undertainity regarding his future, the hit would not be nearly as high with the current bonus structure. Of course, that assumes we didn't get into a bidding war with several other teams for his services.

[Quantum88]

If you take Manning @ 10.4 (cut) and Luck @ 4.2 that is $14.6m. What backup 2nd string QB is going to make that figure stretch to 20mill? No backup QB to Luck is going to have a 5 -6 mill cap hit (unless they stupidly keep Collins whos cap hit is big) You are stretching that number way too far. We aren't signing some big name F/A as a 2nd stringer. Curtis Painters cap hit next season for example is 588k.

You're saving about 5m - 6m in cap space depending on whomever backs up Luck if Manning is cut.

Manning is to get about7.5 million in addition to the 28 million roster bonus next year. If you spread the 20 million bonus he got for the current year out to the 5 year contract limit, the hit for the current amount goes down. Add the 28 million, spread over the remaining years of the contract with his salary and I don't see how you get Manning, Luck and another back up for 23 million.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Yes, his hit on the cap goes up, but if the contract is for substantially less in terms of roster bonus and more incentive laden because of the undertainity regarding his future, the hit would not be nearly as high with the current bonus structure. Of course, that assumes we didn't get into a bidding war with several other teams for his services.

The starting point is 10.4 due to being released.

Some incentives are considered likely to be earned and count against the cap from the start. Some are accounted for after they are earned and those contracts are tricky, because at the end of the year, you have to have enough room to account for them, or you'll have to have someone with enough wiggle room to adjust their cap #, to accommodate the about to be earned incentives.

It would all depend on what he's willing to sign for. For example a 3 year 12 million signing bonus and league minimums(might not get his signature on the contract),

But using that as an example

10.4 from previous acceleration

925k league minimum for a player with his experience

4 million from new signing bonus.

It's a bit cheaper than the current set up and better from a cap penalty perspective moving forward, but it might not be enough to get him to sign and if he's healthy other teams are going to blow that contract out of the water.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Manning is to get about7.5 million in addition to the 28 million roster bonus next year. If you spread the 20 million bonus he got for the current year out to the 5 year contract limit, the hit for the current amount goes down. Add the 28 million, spread over the remaining years of the contract with his salary and I don't see how you get Manning, Luck and another back up for 23 million.

2012 Cap Hits Colts Quarterbacks

Manning 17million Assuming the option bonus is paid.

Luck 4.2 million based on a 5% bump of Cam Newton's deal

Collins 1.25 million dead space cap hit

Painter 22k dead space cap hit (if he's released as expected)

QB3 Rookie making league minimum 390k

Total of 22.8 million and change.