Manning: Could They Just Cut Or Release Him And Then Sign Him Again?

[Mameluc]

what would be the cap hit of say, not picking the option and then resigning him for i dont know a 3 year 10 million per year + the already dead cap space from the old contract? does that make sense lol?

[FireJimCaldwell]

what would be the cap hit of say, not picking the option and then resigning him for i dont know a 3 year 10 million per year + the already dead cap space from the old contract? does that make sense lol?

Straight up 3 years @ 10 million each?

2012 20.4

2013 10.0

2014 10.0

[fvantagio]

Manning is being paid MORE in his first few years but his cap hit/ salary increase towards the later year but he gets no bonuses. If Mannings contract was in reverse, the Colts would take a 20mill cap hit this year instead of 16m. Manning is making more money in his first few years of the contract and less in the later years but the cap hit gets worse each year.

ok?

[Superman]

If you take Manning @ 10.4 (cut) and Luck @ 4.2 that is $14.6m. What backup 2nd string QB is going to make that figure stretch to 20mill? No backup QB to Luck is going to have a 5 -6 mill cap hit (unless they stupidly keep Collins whos cap hit is big) You are stretching that number way too far. We aren't signing some big name F/A as a 2nd stringer. Curtis Painters cap hit next season for example is 588k.

You're saving about 5m - 6m in cap space depending on whomever backs up Luck if Manning is cut.

I'm assuming we were to carry three active quarterbacks. So, one backup at $2-3 million, and another at $1-2 million.

[antipatriot]

Prior to the due date? In my opinion no.

After the due date? It most certainly can, but if the bonus is paid, the damage is done and can't be retracted. What I mean by that is that any renegotiation wouldn't adjust the cap penalties that we would incur if Manning were to be traded or released in the next few years.

Any contract can be renegotiated that is between the two parties involved however if Peyton were to do that it would affect every QB in the league when it comes to similar circumstances and the union would not allow that and players generally tow the line in those cases.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Any contract can be renegotiated that is between the two parties involved however if Peyton were to do that it would affect every QB in the league when it comes to similar circumstances and the union would not allow that and players generally tow the line in those cases.

We aren't talking about a lease agreement or a partnership or a generic contract.

NFL contracts are bound by the CBA, and that is why in my opinion no it cannot be renegotiated prior to the the due date of the bonus.

Carson Palmer gave away money this past year to get out of Cincy, but he was in completely different situation than Manning is with his contract.

[Superman]

I see your point, and while

Cap #'s (again Luck's are based off a 5% bump in Cam Newton's deal)

Manning Luck
2011  $16,000,000.00  0
2012  $17,000,000.00   $4,204,725.00
2013  $18,000,000.00   $5,255,941.95
2014  $19,000,000.00   $6,307,158.90
2015  $20,000,000.00   $7,358,375.85
Total  $90,000,000.00   $23,126,201.70

They aren't horrible but they sure aren't optimal.

When you add in the cash being paid out.

Manning Luck
2011  $26,400,000.00  0
2012  $35,400,000.00   $15,637,650.00
2013  $8,400,000.00   $1,444,966.95
2014  $9,400,000.00   $2,496,183.90
2015  $10,400,000.00   $3,547,400.85
Total  $90,000,000.00   $23,126,201.70

That is a lot of coin for just 2 players... It would be more beneficial to have two elite Wide Receivers, say Calvin & Andre Johnson, but putting that much money in the QB position when it's not likely that one won't be happy to sit for 4 years, and if the other doesn't play for 4 years it creates cap issues. It's just not a flattering picture.

No, not flattering at all. And it is a lot of coin. That's not the question, though. The question is whether it's worth it or not. At least to me. I see a huge benefit to being able to keep Manning and drafting Luck, assuming Manning is healthy and Luck is as good as we think he'll be.

And the cap issues in two years aren't necessarily cap issues, not once the TV money kicks in.

I agree that it's Irsay's problem, but when you have 87,85, & 98 wanting deals. 93 will need a chunk of change to convert his contract into an extension. 84 is due. 63, is due.. That's a lot for any given year.

Some of those guys have to go. 44 probably has to go. 93 probably has to go. One of 87 or 85 will have to go. 63 may retire. That's whether we keep 18 or not, because most of them have significantly less value without him.

The cap issues are huge. They have to be fixed. Keeping Manning makes it harder. But if we release him, the benefit is minimal, I think. And you're letting go of a player that, when healthy, is the difference between a playoff contender and the worst team in the league. To me, that's worth an additional $5.6 million cap hit. That's the real number we're talking about. Not the $28 million.

Again, if he's healthy and able to play.

The TV contracts kick in in 2014, and even then it would be hard to swallow 19 million of dead space for Manning if they decided to trade him. The following year it's a more manageable 9 million, but will Luck be happy to sit that long?

If Manning is healthy for 2012 and 2013, and he's still on our team, we'll be having a completely different conversation. And there's still the issue in the interim of restructuring his deal to lower that potential dead hit in 2014. And again, with a higher cap, it might not be a crippling event.

Having Manning start and Luck on the bench would be a nice luxury/insurance policy but it comes at a high premium.

Like I said, if Manning is healthy, it's worth it. My opinion.

[Superman]

We aren't talking about a lease agreement or a partnership or a generic contract.

NFL contracts are bound by the CBA, and that is why in my opinion no it cannot be renegotiated prior to the the due date of the bonus.

Carson Palmer gave away money this past year to get out of Cincy, but he was in completely different situation than Manning is with his contract.

Can it be restructured in 2013 to lessen the dead cap space in a release or trade in 2014?

[FireJimCaldwell]

Can it be restructured in 2013 to lessen the dead cap space in a release or trade in 2014?

No because all of that is triggered by the option bonus.

20 Million signing bonus/5 years would be 4 each

28 Million option bonus/5 years would be 5.6 each

So if he's cut/traded before year 5 he has a 9.6 hit.

If he's cut/traded before year 4, it's 19.2

If he's cut/traded before year 3, it's 28.8

There isn't anything he could do to lower that at this point if the option bonus is paid out. He could lower his base salaries, in any given year to lower the cap hit in any specific year, but that is giving money away, which can be done it rarely happens, but it can be done. The cap hits based on an acceleration are in place as soon as the option bonus is exercised and paid.

[FireJimCaldwell]

No, not flattering at all. And it is a lot of coin. That's not the question, though. The question is whether it's worth it or not. At least to me. I see a huge benefit to being able to keep Manning and drafting Luck, assuming Manning is healthy and Luck is as good as we think he'll be.

And the cap issues in two years aren't necessarily cap issues, not once the TV money kicks in.

Some of those guys have to go. 44 probably has to go. 93 probably has to go. One of 87 or 85 will have to go. 63 may retire. That's whether we keep 18 or not, because most of them have significantly less value without him.

The cap issues are huge. They have to be fixed. Keeping Manning makes it harder. But if we release him, the benefit is minimal, I think. And you're letting go of a player that, when healthy, is the difference between a playoff contender and the worst team in the league. To me, that's worth an additional $5.6 million cap hit. That's the real number we're talking about. Not the $28 million.

Again, if he's healthy and able to play.

If Manning is healthy for 2012 and 2013, and he's still on our team, we'll be having a completely different conversation. And there's still the issue in the interim of restructuring his deal to lower that potential dead hit in 2014. And again, with a higher cap, it might not be a crippling event.

Like I said, if Manning is healthy, it's worth it. My opinion.

If he's healthy it's worth it to keep him, but at that point part of me would say explore trading the # 1 pick for players that could help sooner and address the QB2 elsewhere and his replacement later on.

Some of those guys are likely gone. Some can create cap space, some can eat it up..> It's going to be a tricky offseason. Grigson has his work cut out for him.

[Superman]

If he's healthy it's worth it to keep him, but at that point part of me would say explore trading the # 1 pick for players that could help sooner and address the QB2 elsewhere and his replacement later on.

Some of those guys are likely gone. Some can create cap space, some can eat it up..> It's going to be a tricky offseason. Grigson has his work cut out for him.

I don't think you pass up on Luck. I get the idea, but to me, best case scenario is you keep Manning for a couple years, then hand it off to Luck.

It's absolutely going to be a tricky offseason. I wish Dom Anile could step back in as a cap advisor.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I don't think you pass up on Luck. I get the idea, but to me, best case scenario is you keep Manning for a couple years, then hand it off to Luck.

It's absolutely going to be a tricky offseason. I wish Dom Anile could step back in as a cap advisor.

I'm just sure each of them will be happy with that. Manning would likely prefer the trade for a package of picks. Luck would likely prefer to play.

That would be a nice start with Anile.

[Superman]

I'm just sure each of them will be happy with that. Manning would likely prefer the trade for a package of picks. Luck would likely prefer to play.

That would be a nice start with Anile.

I'm much less concerned with what they would like. I don't see how Manning has a problem with who is on the bench behind him. And Luck is a rookie. Suck it up, kid, learn from the best, and wait for your turn. You'll be better off because of it.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I'm much less concerned with what they would like. I don't see how Manning has a problem with who is on the bench behind him. And Luck is a rookie. Suck it up, kid, learn from the best, and wait for your turn. You'll be better off because of it.

For Manning I don't think it is a matter of who is behind him as much as how could be on the field with him or on defense..

[The Peytonator]

I apologize if this point has already been made, but I would like some confirmation on this thought. If by cutting Peyton we still take a 10 million dollar cap hit, and by keeping him we take roughly an 18 million dollar hit, what sense does it make to get rid of him? If the cap hit were to be nonexistant I could understand getting rid of him, but there only being an 8 million dollar difference, I don't see a point.

By my calculations the cap hit with Manning and Luck would be about 24 mil, while the cap hit with say Luck, Orlovsky, and Painter would be about 18 mil. I just don't see that extra 6 million doing too much.

[Fx Stryker]

Here is a question. Before the start of year 5 he retires, how much do we have to pay him? Or does he get anything at all?

[FireJimCaldwell]

Here is a question. Before the start of year 5 he retires, how much do we have to pay him? Or does he get anything at all?

If he retires we he would not receive his base salary in 2015, so we would pay his 0, yet he would still count 9.6 million against the salary cap due to the signing bonus/option bonus portions that remained unaccounted for.

I apologize if this point has already been made, but I would like some confirmation on this thought. If by cutting Peyton we still take a 10 million dollar cap hit, and by keeping him we take roughly an 18 million dollar hit, what sense does it make to get rid of him? If the cap hit were to be nonexistant I could understand getting rid of him, but there only being an 8 million dollar difference, I don't see a point.

By my calculations the cap hit with Manning and Luck would be about 24 mil, while the cap hit with say Luck, Orlovsky, and Painter would be about 18 mil. I just don't see that extra 6 million doing too much.

Cutting Manning he counts 10.4 against our cap.

Keeping/Paying the bonus he will count 17 million in 2012.

The point isn't exactly the savings. It's small benefit, but the key is that if he's healthy and can finish the contract without concerns, then the only questions are do you want both or one or the other.

The real benefit is that if the Colts feel he's going to struggle to complete the deal, then now is the time to cut ties, take the cap hit, get the cap savings, because that is the only scenario after the option bonus until you get to right before year 5 as discussed in response to the other question above, that there is any form of cap savings by cutting/trading or Manning retiring. If that were to happen in any other year, there is a large cap hit that comes into play.

Another benefit by cutting him now is that 2013 on we are free and clear of his contract so that removes cap hits of 18, 19, 20 million in 2013,14,15 respectively.

It's also a matter of the cash that has to be paid to keep him. 28 option bonus, 7.5 base salary, so that 35 million paired with Luck's likely 15 million signing bonus we are back to the 50+ million of actual cash for the QB position.

2011 our QB's cost us 19.8 vs. the cap and 31.4 cash.

2012 our QB's will cost us about 22.8 vs. the cap and about 51.6 actual cash if Manning's option is picked up and Luck is drafted.

That is a lot of cash considering Manning didn't play in 2011, and either Manning or Luck won't see a lot of time in 2012 in the most likely scenarios.

[OldManP]

what would be the cap hit of say, not picking the option and then resigning him for i dont know a 3 year 10 million per year + the already dead cap space from the old contract? does that make sense lol?

How does that jibe with Irsay's boast that he would make Manning the highest paid player in the NFL? Why would Peyton agree to take such a cut?

[LightninMax]

Why would Manning want to be paid more in his later years? Any NFL player who knows he has a limited time left before hanging it up would want the money front loaded (which is what Manning has now). I know Manning already has enough $$$ in the bank but on the flipside I guarantee some other team out there will offer a lot more for Manning than the Colts will if he becomes a F/A.

If he's worth that much to another team, why not the Colts?

[LightninMax]

If he retires we he would not receive his base salary in 2015, so we would pay his 0, yet he would still count 9.6 million against the salary cap due to the signing bonus/option bonus portions that remained unaccounted for.

Cutting Manning he counts 10.4 against our cap.

Keeping/Paying the bonus he will count 17 million in 2012.

The point isn't exactly the savings. It's small benefit, but the key is that if he's healthy and can finish the contract without concerns, then the only questions are do you want both or one or the other.

The real benefit is that if the Colts feel he's going to struggle to complete the deal, then now is the time to cut ties, take the cap hit, get the cap savings, because that is the only scenario after the option bonus until you get to right before year 5 as discussed in response to the other question above, that there is any form of cap savings by cutting/trading or Manning retiring. If that were to happen in any other year, there is a large cap hit that comes into play.

Another benefit by cutting him now is that 2013 on we are free and clear of his contract so that removes cap hits of 18, 19, 20 million in 2013,14,15 respectively.

It's also a matter of the cash that has to be paid to keep him. 28 option bonus, 7.5 base salary, so that 35 million paired with Luck's likely 15 million signing bonus we are back to the 50+ million of actual cash for the QB position.

2011 our QB's cost us 19.8 vs. the cap and 31.4 cash.

2012 our QB's will cost us about 22.8 vs. the cap and about 51.6 actual cash if Manning's option is picked up and Luck is drafted.

That is a lot of cash considering Manning didn't play in 2011, and either Manning or Luck won't see a lot of time in 2012 in the most likely scenarios.

If PM is cut or retires the 28 mil is not paid. Resigned with a new contract keeps the cap hit at reasonable numbers. Especially when weighed with the probabilities of playoffs and a couple Super Bowl runs vs. some mediocre rebuilding years with unproven players.

[FireJimCaldwell]

If PM is cut or retires the 28 mil is not paid. Resigned with a new contract keeps the cap hit at reasonable numbers. Especially when weighed with the probabilities of playoffs and a couple Super Bowl runs vs. some mediocre rebuilding years with unproven players.

It would all depend on the contract.

the 2012 cap number would start at 10.4 and only go higher as base salary and a portion of a signing bonus is added to it, if he were cut and resigned.

[UndecidedFrog]

If PM is cut or retires the 28 mil is not paid. Resigned with a new contract keeps the cap hit at reasonable numbers. Especially when weighed with the probabilities of playoffs and a couple Super Bowl runs vs. some mediocre rebuilding years with unproven players.

Consider the current contract for 2012, in addition to that $28MM bonus, there is PM's regular salary of $7.5MM.

If the bonus is paid, cap hit for PM in 2012 will be:

$4 pro-rated portion of the $26 signing bonus paid in 2011

$5.6 pro-rated portion of the $28 option bonus paid March 8, 2012

$7.5 regular salary for 2012

Totals up to $17.1 cap hit for 2012

If the scenario is to cut him before the March 8 $28MM bonus, and then re-sign him to a minimum of his regular salary, with no signing bonus:

$10.4 accelerated pro-rated portions of the $26 signing bonus paid in 2011 that have not yet been amortized.

$7.5 regular salary for 2012

Totals up to $17.9 cap hit for 2012

So, unless Peyton is willing to forego any signing bonus associated with a new contract, AND accept a lower regular salary than he would have been paid in the old contract, the scenario of cut/release Peyton to re-sign him, generally is not favorable to the cap comparisons.

[Tony Sullivan]

Grigson needs to hop on the forums, it seems we have a lot of arm-chair GM's that might be of some help in these trying times!

[luckyhorseshoe]

Stop smoking dope!

[The Fish]

Or start.