QB Tier

[ColtStronger]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/13261036/league-insiders-rank-32-starting-quarterbacks-tiers-nfl?ex_cid=espnFB

 

Here is a link from espn.com  The experts provide a great explanation of the level each QB is playing at.  I feel like a lot of people try to put the 2nd tier guys with top tier QB's.  It can be a little confusing at times, because some of those guys can even perform at an MVP level, but the keys are inconsistent at times, and NEED other players around them to have success!

 

I have been debating with several people recently that Andrew Luck doesn't NEED the best WR corp in the league, he will get the job done without them, if need be!  Other QB's like Flacco, Rivers, Ryan, E. Manning, have glipses of greatness, but also go through slumps in a season (inconsistent), if the team as a whole isn't playing well.  These QB's also usually (not always) need a pro bowl caliber WR, to be a go to guy when it's getting down to the nitty gritty!

 

I wish the video would discuss the rest of the tiers a little better but just judging by this platform you can kind of see who fits where.  I hope this can clear the air, when people hear me say, we don't NEED to resign TY Hilton.  Yes, it would be nice, but Luck has other options, and can make an average WR look good!

[amfootball]

I am not an Insider. Do you have the rankings?

 

I saw in the intro they put only Rodgers and Brady at Tier 1 which I completely agree with but would be interested in knowing the rest if it is not against forum rules to post ...

[Superman]

Tier 1 -- Rodgers/Brady tied, Luck, Roethlisberger, P. Manning, Brees

Tier 2 -- Rivers, Wilson, Romo, Flacco, Ryan, E. Manning, Stafford, Newton

Tier 3 -- Palmer, Smith, Tannehill, Kaepernick, Dalton, Carr, Cutler, Foles, Bradford, Bridgewater

Tier 4 -- Mariota, Winston, Bortles, Griffin, McCown, Hoyer, Cassel, Smith

[amfootball]

Tier 1 -- Rodgers/Brady tied, Luck, Roethlisberger, P. Manning, Brees

Tier 2 -- Rivers, Wilson, Romo, Flacco, Ryan, E. Manning, Stafford, Newton

Tier 3 -- Palmer, Smith, Tannehill, Kaepernick, Dalton, Carr, Cutler, Foles, Bradford, Bridgewater

Tier 4 -- Mariota, Winston, Bortles, Griffin, McCown, Hoyer, Cassel, Smith

Thank you.

 

How are Rodgers and Brady tied? Is it a point system?

 

Interesting that Wilson is in Tier 2. What do you think overall of the rankings?

[Superman]

Thank you.

 

How are Rodgers and Brady tied? Is it a point system?

 

Interesting that Wilson is in Tier 2. What do you think overall of the rankings?

 

I'm not certain how the voting works, but they both had an average rating of 1.0. Luck's was 1.14, Ben's was 1.37, Manning 1.43, Brees, 1.49. 

 

I think the rankings are pretty good, overall. I have some nitpicks, but not a whole lot. Wilson is about right where I'd have him.

[amfootball]

I'm not certain how the voting works, but they both had an average rating of 1.0. Luck's was 1.14, Ben's was 1.37, Manning 1.43, Brees, 1.49. 

 

I think the rankings are pretty good, overall. I have some nitpicks, but not a whole lot. Wilson is about right where I'd have him.

Any chance you can post the write ups just for the top tier? If against forum rules than I understand. That is great for Luck. I saw on ESPN they said right now they would take him number one even over Rodgers. That is high praise.

[NewColtsFan]

I'm not certain how the voting works, but they both had an average rating of 1.0. Luck's was 1.14, Ben's was 1.37, Manning 1.43, Brees, 1.49. 

 

I think the rankings are pretty good, overall. I have some nitpicks, but not a whole lot. Wilson is about right where I'd have him.

 

I believe the voting works this way....

 

Each of the voters gives the player a grade....   a "1" or a "2" or a "3" or so on....

 

The grade equals a point....    add up the points and divide by the number of voters to get their tier ranking....

 

Honestly,  I think this is the best and most accurate view of the QB's....    this is done by NFL execs and not by the media or former players....   

 

To me,  the feels the most valid by far...

[Superman]

I believe the voting works this way....

 

Each of the voters gives the player a grade....   a "1" or a "2" or a "3" or so on....

 

The grade equals a point....    add up the points and divide by the number of voters to get their tier ranking....

 

Honestly,  I think this is the best and most accurate view of the QB's....    this is done by NFL execs and not by the media or former players....   

 

To me,  the feels the most valid by far...

 

That voting makes sense. Five people out of 35 graded Luck as a 2. That means his total points were 40, divided by 35 voters = 1.14. Yup.

 

Edit: As for the validity of it, I agree with you. However, in 2012, there were NFL personnel people who reportedly favored Griffin to Luck. And in this ranking, three years later, Griffin is 28th, and Luck is 3rd. Bill Polian said publicly that it was basically a coin toss (not sure he really believed that, but he said it). He's likely one of those two ex-GMs polled. Just saying, NFL decision makers aren't incapable of being wrong, even outstandingly wrong.

[southwest1]

Tier 1 -- Rodgers/Brady tied, Luck, Roethlisberger, P. Manning, Brees

Tier 2 -- Rivers, Wilson, Romo, Flacco, Ryan, E. Manning, Stafford, Newton

Tier 3 -- Palmer, Smith, Tannehill, Kaepernick, Dalton, Carr, Cutler, Foles, Bradford, Bridgewater

Tier 4 -- Mariota, Winston, Bortles, Griffin, McCown, Hoyer, Cassel, Smith

Dalton in tier 3 is hilarious to me. Is there a Tier 6? Put him there. No sold on Andy at all. Stafford is way too high too. Carr or Bridgewater will overtake him soon. 

 

Yeah, I always overlook BIG Ben too & I need to stop doing that. He's definitely elite. Pittsburgh scares me more that the Patriots this year. Nice to see Luck included in rarified air among the best QBs right now. 

[NewColtsFan]

That voting makes sense. Five people out of 35 graded Luck as a 2. That means his total points were 40, divided by 35 voters = 1.14. Yup.

 

Edit: As for the validity of it, I agree with you. However, in 2012, there were NFL personnel people who reportedly favored Griffin to Luck. And in this ranking, three years later, Griffin is 28th, and Luck is 3rd. Bill Polian said publicly that it was basically a coin toss (not sure he really believed that, but he said it). He's likely one of those two ex-GMs polled. Just saying, NFL decision makers aren't incapable of being wrong, even outstandingly wrong.

 

You'll get no argument from me on that......    not at all....

 

They may have access to more information,  but it's what they with that information,  how they process that information that makes all the difference.

 

Also....    as to drafting and prioritizing free agent talent.....    not all GM's are equal.    Everyone sees the same thing differently.  What's obvious to someone is not obvious to the next person.

 

Grigson has now had 4 drafts and appears to have done well in 3 of the 4....   if the 2013 class shows up this year,  then the Colts will be much, much better.    But, as Dustin has noted,  his record in free agency is spotty at best....   without doing the math,  I'd guess more misses than hits....   and his misses have been very expensive.     Clearly we're all hoping that his 2015 free agents come through big time this year....     if so -- great.    But if not -- could be a disappointing year....

 

Just thinking out loud....   but I think we're in agreement here....

[Superman]

You'll get no argument from me on that......    not at all....

 

They may have access to more information,  but it's what they with that information,  how they process that information that makes all the difference.

 

Also....    as to drafting and prioritizing free agent talent.....    not all GM's are equal.    Everyone sees the same thing differently.  What's obvious to someone is not obvious to the next person.

 

Grigson has now had 4 drafts and appears to have done well in 3 of the 4....   if the 2013 class shows up this year,  then the Colts will be much, much better.    But, as Dustin has noted,  his record in free agency is spotty at best....   without doing the math,  I'd guess more misses than hits....   and his misses have been very expensive.     Clearly we're all hoping that his 2015 free agents come through big time this year....     if so -- great.    But if not -- could be a disappointing year....

 

Just thinking out loud....   but I think we're in agreement here....

 

Grigson's FA misses haven't even been that expensive, relatively speaking. Landry was $6m/year, Cherilus $6.9m. I don't think Donald Thomas is a miss, despite his not having an impact; no one could have predicted his injury situation. To me, the problem is that we probably could have signed players that were more likely to have helped the team, not how much we spent on them. Even with the benefit of hindsight, I think they're contracts were all justifiable.

 

Using a first on Richardson will probably have a greater impact, short and long term, than any of the not so good free agent contracts Grigson has done. 

 

GMs in general, absolutely they have more information than we do. Some of them still don't make good decisions, and several have a consistent pattern of making mistakes with personnel. They still all know the game better than I do.

[southwest1]

Grigson's FA misses haven't even been that expensive, relatively speaking. Landry was $6m/year, Cherilus $6.9m. I don't think Donald Thomas is a miss, despite his not having an impact; no one could have predicted his injury situation. To me, the problem is that we probably could have signed players that were more likely to have helped the team, not how much we spent on them. Even with the benefit of hindsight, I think they're contracts were all justifiable.

 

Using a first on Richardson will probably have a greater impact, short and long term, than any of the not so good free agent contracts Grigson has done. 

 

GMs in general, absolutely they have more information than we do. Some of them still don't make good decisions, and several have a consistent pattern of making mistakes with personnel. They still all know the game better than I do.

I can't speak with any authority when it comes to fiscal salary numbers since SW1 sucks at math or anything decimal point related, but you do make a good point when you say that GMs have more access to information than ordinary citizens do regarding their knowledge of the game, access to medical records, & good working relationship with other NFL GMs across the league. It does make me wonder if that likability gets tested sometimes though. I mean when we went after Trent Richardson how truthful was the Cleveland's front office about his game day abilities? Look, I get it. It's a game of chicken to see what level of draft picks they can obtain for a guy they might not want much longer anyway.

 

I guess I always wondered if 1 GM would tell the other GM that Trent sucked or not. It's like if you're on a 1st date & a salesman tries to sell you roses for the woman you are dining with...Are you really gonna say "No thanks man. She's really not worth it. Try that table over there." LOL! I'm just messing around, but you get what I'm driving at: Where does loyalty end & nitty gritty business start? Just thinking outloud.  

[dgambill]

That looks like a really good list. Probably how I would put them too. I would say the separation of the front of the tier to the back is probably wider than from one tier to the next. The only exception I think I have is flipping Romo and Wilson....I just think Romo is a better qb than he gets credit for being. He certainly has come out on the short end of the stick and some epic meltdowns but man he has drug some pretty avg teams into (and yes out of) contention.

 

I also think its impossible to rate rookie qbs that haven't thrown a pass in this league as well. Otherwise I think its a really good list...and I'm sure some qbs could move up and down this list this year as some age and some finally have surrounded themselves with better talent or are ready to blossom.

[Gavin]

Tier 1 -- Rodgers/Brady tied, Luck, Roethlisberger, P. Manning, Brees

Tier 2 -- Rivers, Wilson, Romo, Flacco, Ryan, E. Manning, Stafford, Newton

Tier 3 -- Palmer, Smith, Tannehill, Kaepernick, Dalton, Carr, Cutler, Foles, Bradford, Bridgewater

Tier 4 -- Mariota, Winston, Bortles, Griffin, McCown, Hoyer, Cassel, Smith

Agree with everything except I'd have Dalton in tier 2(Given the definition of Tier 2), I think what happened last year with his performance isn't what he is as a QB but moreso a problem of losing his #1 and 2 wr's for a time,

[Superman]

Agree with everything except I'd have Dalton in tier 2(Given the definition of Tier 2), I think what happened last year with his performance isn't what he is as a QB but moreso a problem of losing his #1 and 2 wr's for a time,

 

I think Dalton is fine there. I don't have a problem with Dalton, even though everyone else loves to hate him. I think Tier 2 QBs need to have a certain amount of playmaking ability, the ability to reach certain heights at certain times, that Dalton doesn't have.

 

I'd move Kaepernick up, though. 

[MR. Blueblood]

Thank you.

 

How are Rodgers and Brady tied? Is it a point system?

 

Interesting that Wilson is in Tier 2. What do you think overall of the rankings?

I'm not quite sure if it was a point system or not, but I did read where Brady and Rodgers were the only 2 that were on all 35 members of the poll as being in tier 1.  So I guess that is where the tie came in.

[amfootball]

Finally got a chance to go through this and came away thinking this list was pretty spot on. I have some nit picks but nothing major.

The main take away for me is that the execs had Rodgers and Brady tied. Rodgers is without question the best QB in the game AND in his prime while Brady is almost 40 and still seen at his level. That is impressive to me anyways.  
 

[Blue Horseshoe]

I don't care what they say

 

1 Manning

2 Brees

3 Luck

4 Rodgers

5 Brady

6 Rivers

7 Romo

8 Roethlisberger

[RealityIsLuck]

Tier 1:

Luck, Rodgers

Brady, Manning

Brees, Rothelisburger

 

Tier 2:

Rivers, Romo

Wilson, Newton

Flacco, Ryan

 

Tier 3:

Kapernick, Dalton

Manning, Stafford

Tannehill, Smith

[braveheartcolt]

Robert Griffin now wishes to be known as RG4.

[ColtsBlueFL]

It was a point system, and Rodgers / Brady the only two that got a 1 from all 35.  Luck got 30 out of 35.  But there are some fantastic quotes concerning that-

 

"Luck didn't get a 1 from everybody?" a GM asked. He was incredulous. "You want to talk about a guy who makes the team? He is Michael Jordan. Their defense sucks. Every game, he has to outscore everybody. He is the epitome of a 1. If I was to draft tomorrow any player in the NFL, it would be Andrew Luck one, Aaron Rodgers two."

 

 

** The five voters who placed Luck in the second tier cited a few reasons. Some thought Luck needed to do a better job protecting the football. Others pointed to Luck's underwhelming resume in the postseason. Luck also benefits from playing in a weak division.

"It is almost like we are giving him the benefit of the doubt just in terms of numbers, but he has won games," another GM said. "Yes, he is in an easy division, but he won, even as a rookie. They would not win without him."

**  Some quarterbacks with winning records benefit from top-flight defenses and/or strong running games. Luck has won even with the Colts being especially weak in those complementary phases.   **

**  Even those who thought Luck deserved a second-tier vote at this point felt as though he would ascend into the top tier before long.  **

"Luck is one of the great pressure performers in our league," a personnel director said. "He might have spells where accuracy is not great, but when the chips are on the line, he performs. For a young quarterback to survive some of the hits he has taken behind that line, not everyone would have done that. He is strong. He has an even head, which you have to have to be special at that position. I'd be surprised if soon we're not talking about him in same breath we talk about Aaron."

Last but not least and my favorite-

 

"I don't know who didn't give Luck a 1, but he is better than all of them," a head coach said. "He is as smart as Peyton, he is as accurate as Brady, he is tougher than Ben and he is as athletic as RG III."

 

Way to go Andrew!!

[ColtsBlueFL]

Robert Griffin now wishes to be known as RG4.

 

The easiest grader in the poll placed 30 of the 32 in tier 1 or tier 2.  The lone 2?  Mat Cassell at tier 3, and Robert Griffin at tier 4.  Wow!  Some noteworthy quotes-

 

"Five, and there's no coming back," one offensive coach said. "He is done. The reason is, the injury slowed his legs, and his ego will not allow him to hit rock bottom and actually grind his way back up the right way."    Ouch!  bet this guys name rhymes with Shike Mannahan...  LOL!

 

"To get better in this league, you have to have a degree of humility," a personnel director said. "Griffin sees himself like Peyton, in that light. When he looks in the mirror, he is seeing things that everybody else is not seeing. That is why I was surprised when they gave him the fifth-year [option] and said it was an easy decision."

**  Griffin did receive a lone second-tier vote from a GM who took a longer-range view. **

"I know how hard it is for a quarterback to go into a system for the first time," he said. "I go back to Brett Favre. He was a 1, but he goes to the Jets and he was probably a 2 or a 3. Then he went to a familiar system in Minnesota and was a 1 again. With Griffin, I'm taking into account the new offense, the new personality at head coach, coming off an injury. He showed his rookie year that he could be a 1. He is a young guy. I'm going to give him the benefit because of that."

Best of luck Washington!

[amfootball]

The easiest grader in the poll placed 30 of the 32 in tier 1 or tier 2.  The lone 2?  Mat Cassell at tier 3, and Robert Griffin at tier 4.  Wow!  Some noteworthy quotes-

 

"Five, and there's no coming back," one offensive coach said. "He is done. The reason is, the injury slowed his legs, and his ego will not allow him to hit rock bottom and actually grind his way back up the right way."    Ouch!  bet this guys name rhymes with Shike Mannahan...  LOL!

 

"To get better in this league, you have to have a degree of humility," a personnel director said. "Griffin sees himself like Peyton, in that light. When he looks in the mirror, he is seeing things that everybody else is not seeing. That is why I was surprised when they gave him the fifth-year [option] and said it was an easy decision."

**  Griffin did receive a lone second-tier vote from a GM who took a longer-range view. **

"I know how hard it is for a quarterback to go into a system for the first time," he said. "I go back to Brett Favre. He was a 1, but he goes to the Jets and he was probably a 2 or a 3. Then he went to a familiar system in Minnesota and was a 1 again. With Griffin, I'm taking into account the new offense, the new personality at head coach, coming off an injury. He showed his rookie year that he could be a 1. He is a young guy. I'm going to give him the benefit because of that."

Best of luck Washington!

I think that last quote is probably spot on. It is easy to take shots at RG and some of that is deserved but he did not go into a favorable organization at all with the Redskins who have had a joke of an owner and FO for quite some time. He showed the goods his first season and then has had some flashes since but the injury for sure took its toll. I suppose the biggest question is where he is mentally. He needs to be completely dialed in with Gruden this season. Kind of reminds me of Vick when he came back from prison to the Eagles and how hard he worked at his game and his preparation. RG really has to have that same mind set this season and he could have some success.

[Superman]

I think that last quote is probably spot on. It is easy to take shots at RG and some of that is deserved but he did not go into a favorable organization at all with the Redskins who have had a joke of an owner and FO for quite some time. He showed the goods his first season and then has had some flashes since but the injury for sure took its toll. I suppose the biggest question is where he is mentally. He needs to be completely dialed in with Gruden this season. Kind of reminds me of Vick when he came back from prison to the Eagles and how hard he worked at his game and his preparation. RG really has to have that same mind set this season and he could have some success.

 

Washington did everything they could to make life easy for Griffin in his rookie year. A simplified offense that accentuated his talents and minimized his weaknesses, a power running game that took pressure off of him, and the freedom to make decisions at the line of scrimmage and even after the snap and then use his legs to make plays whenever he wanted. 

 

No, Washington's front office and ownership weren't/aren't great. The Colts are much better, more stable, etc. Yet, if Griffin had come to the Colts, he wouldn't have been allowed to run an option offense with a passing attack that cordoned off one side of the field on 90% of pass plays. He would have been in Bruce Arians vertical offense with slow developing routes to every section of the field on every play. So it's not just a function of front office stability, but most importantly, having a coaching staff that would adjust to what he was/wasn't good at. Washington did that as well as anyone else would have.

 

The only other team that would have allowed Griffin to have such a good rookie year would have been Seattle. 

[amfootball]

Washington did everything they could to make life easy for Griffin in his rookie year. A simplified offense that accentuated his talents and minimized his weaknesses, a power running game that took pressure off of him, and the freedom to make decisions at the line of scrimmage and even after the snap and then use his legs to make plays whenever he wanted. 

 

No, Washington's front office and ownership weren't/aren't great. The Colts are much better, more stable, etc. Yet, if Griffin had come to the Colts, he wouldn't have been allowed to run an option offense with a passing attack that cordoned off one side of the field on 90% of pass plays. He would have been in Bruce Arians vertical offense with slow developing routes to every section of the field on every play. So it's not just a function of front office stability, but most importantly, having a coaching staff that would adjust to what he was/wasn't good at. Washington did that as well as anyone else would have.

 

The only other team that would have allowed Griffin to have such a good rookie year would have been Seattle. 

Makes you wonder why on earth they went away from it. I get he got injured and all but they could have still done it with modifications. That was my point.

 

Imagine if Seattle had done that with Wilson? What you saw vs GB and the Pats this past post-season would have been the norm if they forced him to be a traditional pocket passer.

[Superman]

Makes you wonder why on earth they went away from it. I get he got injured and all but they could have still done it with modifications. That was my point.

 

Imagine if Seattle had done that with Wilson? What you saw vs GB and the Pats this past post-season would have been the norm if they forced him to be a traditional pocket passer.

 

Because eventually, read option and half field passing concepts get figured out by defenses. You can't base your offense around those kinds of limitations. Sometimes, coaching staffs try to force these changes on young QBs too fast -- like Griffin, Kap, Vick back in the day, and numerous others -- and wind up undermining what they're good at before they really develop as progression based passers. But eventually, your offense has to evolve. There's a reason progression based passing is still supreme in the NFL.

 

Even Russell Wilson is a mile ahead of Griffin as a progression based passer, and was back in 2012. Just because Wilson scrambles and runs read option doesn't mean he isn't a progression based passer. And let's not confuse what it means to be a progression based passer with being a so-called pocket passer. Wilson still has some improvement to make when defenses are able to keep him corralled, but he has the stuff to be a deadly combination as a QB. 

 

Also, Griffin was hurt, and hasn't been 100% since because he makes bad decisions and can't handle contact. And as a limited progression based passer, he scrambles more often than he should. That's a terrible combination, and it's cost him chunks of games the last two years, and the experience that should go along with it. Jay Gruden shouldn't have blasted him publicly the way he did, but nothing he said was inaccurate. 

[amfootball]

Because eventually, read option and half field passing concepts get figured out by defenses. You can't base your offense around those kinds of limitations. Sometimes, coaching staffs try to force these changes on young QBs too fast -- like Griffin, Kap, Vick back in the day, and numerous others -- and wind up undermining what they're good at before they really develop as progression based passers. But eventually, your offense has to evolve. There's a reason progression based passing is still supreme in the NFL.

 

Even Russell Wilson is a mile ahead of Griffin as a progression based passer, and was back in 2012. Just because Wilson scrambles and runs read option doesn't mean he isn't a progression based passer. And let's not confuse what it means to be a progression based passer with being a so-called pocket passer. Wilson still has some improvement to make when defenses are able to keep him corralled, but he has the stuff to be a deadly combination as a QB. 

 

Also, Griffin was hurt, and hasn't been 100% since because he makes bad decisions and can't handle contact. And as a limited progression based passer, he scrambles more often than he should. That's a terrible combination, and it's cost him chunks of games the last two years, and the experience that should go along with it. Jay Gruden shouldn't have blasted him publicly the way he did, but nothing he said was inaccurate. 

Sure, I agree with most of this. I was more taking issue with the quotes of how Griffin was a bust and done as a QB. I think for whatever reason many wanted to see him fail. Perhaps it was/is his attitude or early success but I just don't buy into the whole line of thinking. It is waaay too early to tell and I don't think the Redskins did him any favors after his first season. Perhaps his game is not sustainable or he continues to improve. It is interesting to me that the Skins picked up the 5th year option on him so they obviously see a future there that is not so dim as others would like it to be. Still I am not sold on Gruden. His comments were very unprofessional and immature for a HC. He has some growing to do too.

[dgambill]

Finally got a chance to go through this and came away thinking this list was pretty spot on. I have some nit picks but nothing major.

The main take away for me is that the execs had Rodgers and Brady tied. Rodgers is without question the best QB in the game AND in his prime while Brady is almost 40 and still seen at his level. That is impressive to me anyways.  

 

It is...but how I kinda felt I believe the difference in the first name on the tier to the last is bigger than say the jump from last name of a tier to the first on the next. I think there is a decent gap between Tom and Aaron at this point but no doubt in my mind Tom is number two on the list with the way he played last year. I see several players making strong gains on this list moving up like Luck and Ryan will make a leap forward with a healthy receiving core and OL. Guys in that generation will continue to climb (Newton, Flacco, and Wilson)...where as I think it is safe to say the Brees, Manning, Brady's will decline....some slowly...some perhaps rapidly. I think Manning and Brees have a lot of question marks around where their careers are headed...Brady less but he certainly will have the spot light on him this year depending on if he misses games and if he gets off to a slow start as is often the case for him. Guys like Rothlisburger, Rivers, Eli, Palmer, and Romo are likely peaking wherever they are...I think we are about to see a major shift in the NFL Mt. Rushmore of current qbs very soon....its a new era and its coming on very quickly.

[dgambill]

Sure, I agree with most of this. I was more taking issue with the quotes of how Griffin was a bust and done as a QB. I think for whatever reason many wanted to see him fail. Perhaps it was/is his attitude or early success but I just don't buy into the whole line of thinking. It is waaay too early to tell and I don't think the Redskins did him any favors after his first season. Perhaps his game is not sustainable or he continues to improve. It is interesting to me that the Skins picked up the 5th year option on him so they obviously see a future there that is not so dim as others would like it to be. Still I am not sold on Gruden. His comments were very unprofessional and immature for a HC. He has some growing to do too.

I liked Griffin....still think he has the arm talent to be a very very good qb. Not sure about the rest as I don't think he has gotten the best coaching along with his injury set backs. He has fallen way behind his peers. I agree with the right coach/teacher he can be much better. It doesn't help that Washington for many years spent big money on free agent splashs that were very questionable signings or spent big at wr position when they have OBVIOUS need on their OL. Money better spent on protecting their future qb with. Griffin isn't built like a tank like Luck is. He can't take the punishment. So while we have put the OL on the back burner and given Luck weapons that isn't a recipe for success for Griffen. He hasn't done himself any favors but I think he can be more than a ROY flash in the pan like Vince Young....time will tell if he gets in the right situation to make more of himself.

[BOTT]

I liked Griffin....still think he has the arm talent to be a very very good qb. Not sure about the rest as I don't think he has gotten the best coaching along with his injury set backs. He has fallen way behind his peers. I agree with the right coach/teacher he can be much better. It doesn't help that Washington for many years spent big money on free agent splashs that were very questionable signings or spent big at wr position when they have OBVIOUS need on their OL. Money better spent on protecting their future qb with. Griffin isn't built like a tank like Luck is. He can't take the punishment. So while we have put the OL on the back burner and given Luck weapons that isn't a recipe for success for Griffen. He hasn't done himself any favors but I think he can be more than a ROY flash in the pan like Vince Young....time will tell if he gets in the right situation to make more of himself.

A young QB could do far worse than having the Shanahans to start their career. In fact, Griffin was lucky to have them.

[dgambill]

A young QB could do far worse than having the Shanahans to start their career. In fact, Griffin was lucky to have them.

Normally I would say that...but I just don't understand why they used him the way that they did to start his career. It worked well...got them to the playoffs but it also got him hurt and stunted his development. Then they threw out an injured qb too soon and well he has struggled since trying to learn a more traditional system. I think they should have started all that from the get go instead of trying to win now with the read option thing. I think Shanahan is a pretty good coach but I also think he was in a win now situation with Snyder and pressured to get results instead of develop the kid.