Will Vontae be a first team all pro next year

[BlueShoe]

Hmm no... Sherman is every bit the man corner that Vontae and Revis are. Sure, Sherman will see some zone coverage every now and then, they all do, but again he's primarily a man cover guy. Seattle plays their corners just like the Colts do.

 

No. You're absolutely not correct. The Seahawks play a lot of zone coverage. We play play very little zone. And Vontae is almost always in man coverage.

 

We play more man coverage than any team in the NFL.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

And how many drops?  Excellent hands doesn't refer to a few highlight plays, it's consistency.  And he's dropped his fair share.

 

Everyone has drops, I bet Reggie Wayne had more drops than Vontae last year and Reggie is probably going to go the the HOF and be known as one of the most sure-handed WRs to ever play the game.

 

For a corner, maybe Vontae's hands are not excellent, but they are well above average and very good.

[wig]

Home or away game? What quarter and how much time was left?

Also if you can only think of one drop "off the top of your head" then you're not doing well defending your position.

Jerry Rice had dropped passes. Marvin Harrison had dropped passes. Every receiver in the hall of fame has dropped passes.

One drop. That's all you can "kind of" remember Vontae having?

My argument stands strong. Vontae has excellent hands.

Not remembering the date and time of something I watched once more than half a year ago doesn't have anything to do with my point. You can't exactly Google it like you did his interceptions.

But, I don't really care if you think he has excellent hands or not.

[oldunclemark]

I love Vontae/but he's not in the top-5...

Not physical..no blinding speed...good.....and that's fine

[BlueShoe]

Not remembering the date and time of something I watched once more than half a year ago doesn't have anything to do with my point. You can't exactly Google it like you did his interceptions.

But, I don't really care if you think he has excellent hands or not.

 

You cannot even remember when Vontae had his last drop, yet you are content to say he does not have excellent hands. 

 

The only evidence you have to support your claim is that you "kind of remember" and it was "too long ago" and "it's not something you can just Google".

 

Maybe it is just me, but IF ever what I believe to be true, falls into all three of those categories then I am not going to be telling anyone that I am an expert in the matter. That should be realized long before anyone ever gets close to this part of the debate. 

[BlueShoe]

I love Vontae/but he's not in the top-5...

Not physical..no blinding speed...good.....and that's fine

 

How many times have we seen someone run past Vontae? It doesn't happen. So his speed is just fine, if not close to great.

 

As far as physical, it doesn't get any more physical from the corner back position than this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc6AsjYuZ9w

 

I am happy that is not one of my loved ones getting his butt handed to him like that. 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

Vontaes a silent assassin. He doesn't say much, he just does his job. And he's a straight beast.

[wig]

You cannot even remember when Vontae had his last drop, yet you are content to say he does not have excellent hands.

The only evidence you have to support your claim is that you "kind of remember" and it was "too long ago" and "it's not something you can just Google".

Maybe it is just me, but IF ever what I believe to be true, falls into all three of those categories then I am not going to be telling anyone that I am an expert in the matter. That should be realized long before anyone ever gets close to this part of the debate.

Like I said, I don't care what you believe. If you want to believe he has excellent hands, that's up to you. That didn't change the fact that he doesn't.

Here's his second best game where he dropped two.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/01/12/refo-colts-broncos-divisional-round/

[BlueShoe]

Like I said, I don't care what you believe. If you want to believe he has excellent hands, that's up to you. That didn't change the fact that he doesn't.

Here's his second best game where he dropped two.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/01/12/refo-colts-broncos-divisional-round/

 

Near interceptions does no translate to drops. 

 

Vontae Davis has excellent hands. You can choose not to believe it all you want to, but it will not change the truth. 

[wig]

Near interceptions does no translate to drops. 

 

Vontae Davis has excellent hands. You can choose not to believe it all you want to, but it will not change the truth. 

 

They don't keep track of dropped interceptions.  They call them pass breakups.  People also refer to them as near interceptions.  If he were a receiver, he'd have an awful drop rate. 

[PuntersArePeopleToo]

They don't keep track of dropped interceptions. They call them pass breakups. People also refer to them as near interceptions. If he were a receiver, he'd have an awful drop rate.

He isn't a receiver though. You judge his ability to catch based on others at his position

[BleedBlu8792]

No. You're absolutely not correct. The Seahawks play a lot of zone coverage. We play play very little zone. And Vontae is almost always in man coverage.

 

We play more man coverage than any team in the NFL.

 

Cover 1 and Cover 3 are NOT specifically zone coverage's across the board for the secondary. More often than not, especially in Seattle's scheme, the corners have man-coverage responsibilities. 

 

Cover 1 - Sherman is in man coverage

 

Cover 3 - Sherman is in man coverage

 

 

AGAIN, Sherman is most often playing man coverage in Cover 1/3 with either the SS or SAM playing in zone coverage depending on what side of the field they are lined up on. To go one step further, guess who plays the same coverage's (Cover1/3) and uses their corners the same way? The Colts do. Vontae plays the same role in our scheme as Sherman does in his - he has one side, or 3rd if in Cover3, of the field to himself with a safety behind him. To say that Sherman and Seattle are a primarily zone coverage defense is completely incorrect. I would overload this thread with lag with gifs to prove my point, but I've shown and said enough. 

 

I will say this though, I would take Vontae over any other corner in the league with the exception of Revis. I think both of them are as complete at corner as can be. I don't think there is a corner in the league that's as strong as Vontae is at containing the run coming to his side. I thought the guy was an All-Pro corner last year, and he did receive 5 votes, but I'm not quite sure he's got the name recognition yet. Hopefully with another strong year like last year he'll get it. 

[BlueShoe]

Cover 1 and Cover 3 are NOT specifically zone coverage's across the board for the secondary. More often than not, especially in Seattle's scheme, the corners have man-coverage responsibilities. 

 

Cover 1 - Sherman is in man coverage

 

Cover 3 - Sherman is in man coverage

 

AGAIN, Sherman is most often playing man coverage in Cover 1/3 with either the SS or SAM playing in zone coverage depending on what side of the field they are lined up on. To go one step further, guess who plays the same coverage's (Cover1/3) and uses their corners the same way? The Colts do. Vontae plays the same role in our scheme as Sherman does in his - he has one side, or 3rd if in Cover3, of the field to himself with a safety behind him. To say that Sherman and Seattle are a primarily zone coverage defense is completely incorrect. I would overload this thread with lag with gifs to prove my point, but I've shown and said enough. 

 

I will say this though, I would take Vontae over any other corner in the league with the exception of Revis. I think both of them are as complete at corner as can be. I don't think there is a corner in the league that's as strong as Vontae is at containing the run coming to his side. I thought the guy was an All-Pro corner last year, and he did receive 5 votes, but I'm not quite sure he's got the name recognition yet. Hopefully with another strong year like last year he'll get it. 

 

You found a few cherry picked plays in attempt make yourself and everyone else believe something that is just not true. The play in the Red Zone does nothing to support your argument. Do you really expect him to have help over the top in the Red Zone? The back of the End Zone is the help over the top.

 

Richard Sherman is a zone corner. That is a fact, as true as the sky is blue. No matter how much you try to make it not so, the fact will not change. 

 

Patrick Peterson on Richard Sherman:

 

"He's only covering space. He's not really covering a guy," Peterson said. "At the end of the day, he has great stats and he has great playmaking ability, not taking that away from him because he is a good corner. "But as far as being a shutdown corner, man-to-man guy, in my eyes, I don't believe he's that."

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/5/22/5743852/patrick-peterson-calls-richard-sherman-out-so-richard-sherman-tweets

 

Vontae Davis rarely plays zone, and will mostly be lined up man-to-man without help over the top. We mostly roll that help to other parts of the field. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by SteelCityColt
Removed Personal Shot

[BleedBlu8792]

You found a few cherry picked plays in attempt make yourself and everyone else believe something that is just not true. The play in the Red Zone does nothing to support your argument. Do you really expect him to have help over the top in the Red Zone? The back of the End Zone is the help over the top.

Richard Sherman is a zone corner. That is a fact, as true as the sky is blue. No matter how much you try to make it not so, the fact will not change.

Patrick Peterson on Richard Sherman:

"He's only covering space. He's not really covering a guy," Peterson said. "At the end of the day, he has great stats and he has great playmaking ability, not taking that away from him because he is a good corner. "But as far as being a shutdown corner, man-to-man guy, in my eyes, I don't believe he's that."

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/5/22/5743852/patrick-peterson-calls-richard-sherman-out-so-richard-sherman-tweets

Vontae Davis rarely plays zone, and will mostly be lined up man-to-man without help over the top. We mostly roll that help to other parts of the field.

... so your proof of it being "fact" is another players quote? If you want I'd be more than glad to throw gif after gif at you to show you "real proof" as I already have. Just because Sherman isn't running all over the field like Peterson is, is completely irrelevant due to the fact that even in Seattle coverage schemes the corners still have man coverage responsibilities. By the way safety help is, again, irrelevant on determining whether its zone/man coverage. On top of that Peterson is overrated anyways.

 

Edited May 21, 2015 by SteelCityColt

[BlueShoe]

... so your proof of it being "fact" is another players quote? If you want I'd be more than glad to throw gif after gif at you to show you "real proof" as I already have. Just because Sherman isn't running all over the field like Peterson is, is completely irrelevant due to the fact that even in Seattle coverage schemes the corners still have man coverage responsibilities. On top of that Peterson is overrated anyways.

 

 

Your gif's are not proving anything, and you don't understand what they even mean. The shear fact that you tried to show a Red Zone play to make a point on man coverage is unbelievable. 

 

And then you also want to ignore another high profile NFL corner (Patrick Peterson) who states that Sherman, "He's only covering space. He's not really covering a guy". Did you know that Peterson is an NFL corner?

Edited May 21, 2015 by SteelCityColt

[BleedBlu8792]

It is not my job nor my responsibility to teach you about the game of football. I am not going to continue to waste my time explaining coverage's to you. You have already proven that when I do explain something to you; that you will refuse to believe it.

Your gif's are not proving anything, and you don't understand what they even mean. The shear fact that you tried to show a Red Zone play to make a point on man coverage is unbelievable.

And then you also want to ignore another high profile NFL corner (Patrick Peterson) who states that Sherman, "He's only covering space. He's not really covering a guy". Do you know that Peterson is an NFL corner?

You're not my responsibility. Have a good life.

Wow.. way to + out... Nothing unusual from what I can tell by the rest of your posts when other posters shove "proof" in your face. .. you teaching me? You can't and that's already been "proven". That nonsense "you're not my responsibility/I don't have time" is all you needed to say for me to know you don't KNOW.

Enjoy yourself...

[BlueShoe]

Wow.. way to + out... Nothing unusual from what I can tell by the rest of your posts when other posters shove "proof" in your face. .. you teaching me? You can't and that's already been "proven". That nonsense "you're not my responsibility/I don't have time" is all you needed to say for me to know you don't KNOW.

Enjoy yourself...

 

I am not going to play a childish game with you.

[BleedBlu8792]

I am not going to play a childish game with you.

Good.. let us men debate like men.. Continue doing whatever is you've been doing chief. ..

[Dustin]

I love Vontae/but he's not in the top-5...

Not physical..no blinding speed...good.....and that's fine

 

NOT PHYSICAL LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

 

 

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Dustin]

Then again OUM thinks Patrick Peterson is good. 

[BleedBlu8792]

Then again OUM thinks Patrick Peterson is good.

So does someone else in this thread... I'd post PFF stats but its blasphemy to some people as is "proof"..

[Dustin]

So does someone else in this thread... I'd post PFF stats but its blasphemy to some people as is "proof"..

 

Yeah, a lot of people don't like facts.

[BlueShoe]

Yeah, a lot of people don't like facts.

 

I agree. 

 

Some people just can't handle the facts.

 

Facts like - Richard Sherman is a zone corner, and Vontae Davis is a man corner. 

[Dustin]

Cover 1 and Cover 3 are NOT specifically zone coverage's across the board for the secondary. More often than not, especially in Seattle's scheme, the corners have man-coverage responsibilities. 

 

Cover 1 - Sherman is in man coverage

 

Cover 3 - Sherman is in man coverage

 

 

AGAIN, Sherman is most often playing man coverage in Cover 1/3 with either the SS or SAM playing in zone coverage depending on what side of the field they are lined up on. To go one step further, guess who plays the same coverage's (Cover1/3) and uses their corners the same way? The Colts do. Vontae plays the same role in our scheme as Sherman does in his - he has one side, or 3rd if in Cover3, of the field to himself with a safety behind him. To say that Sherman and Seattle are a primarily zone coverage defense is completely incorrect. I would overload this thread with lag with gifs to prove my point, but I've shown and said enough. 

 

I will say this though, I would take Vontae over any other corner in the league with the exception of Revis. I think both of them are as complete at corner as can be. I don't think there is a corner in the league that's as strong as Vontae is at containing the run coming to his side. I thought the guy was an All-Pro corner last year, and he did receive 5 votes, but I'm not quite sure he's got the name recognition yet. Hopefully with another strong year like last year he'll get it. 

 

This is correct. But, I will add the caveat than Sherman does actually play a lot (not anywhere near the majority of his snaps of course) in a normal zone defense. They do a lot of press-man and press-bail out of zone looks.  

[BleedBlu8792]

This is correct.

Holy shhhhh what do I win?

[BleedBlu8792]

This is correct. But, I will add the caveat than Sherman does actually play a lot (not anywhere near the majority of his snaps of course) in a normal zone defense. They do a lot of press-man and press-bail out of zone looks.

Sure, and I think that's what kept getting overlooked. I never said he was an exclusive man-corner, but to say he was a zone corner is about as far fetched as me calling Luck a game manager. Seattle will throw in a little Cover-2 at times as well.

[Superman]

Sure, and I think that's what kept getting overlooked. I never said he was an exclusive man-corner, but to say he was a zone corner is about as far fetched as me calling Luck a game manager. Seattle will throw in a little Cover-2 at times as well.

 

First, great avatar. "I COMMAND YOU TO GROW!" 

 

Second, I think Sherman plays more zone than man. A lot of their Cover 3 looks like man because he tracks a player down the sideline and/or breaks on early throws because the Seahawks have a great pass rush. But Sherman more often than not doesn't cover his man across the hash; he passes him off and falls back to a zone look. He cheats to take away the sweet spots in their primary coverages, knowing that he has help. This is not always, but more often than you say, based on my observation.

 

And the zone looks that the Seahawks use in the secondary are almost non-existent in the Colts defense. When we did try to use them against the Steelers, we got ate up from the beginning of the game, with Vontae misplaying his assignment and giving up a TD (not officially, but watching the play, it was his fault). The Colts primarily play Vontae in man coverage, where he is responsible for one receiver, no matter what that receiver does after the snap. He's not passing his man off on crossing routes. There's a big difference between what Sherman does and what Vontae does.

[SteelCityColt]

First, great avatar. "I COMMAND YOU TO GROW!" 

 

Second, I think Sherman plays more zone than man. A lot of their Cover 3 looks like man because he tracks a player down the sideline and/or breaks on early throws because the Seahawks have a great pass rush. But Sherman more often than not doesn't cover his man across the hash; he passes him off and falls back to a zone look. He cheats to take away the sweet spots in their primary coverages, knowing that he has help. This is not always, but more often than you say, based on my observation.

 

And the zone looks that the Seahawks use in the secondary are almost non-existent in the Colts defense. When we did try to use them against the Steelers, we got ate up from the beginning of the game, with Vontae misplaying his assignment and giving up a TD (not officially, but watching the play, it was his fault). The Colts primarily play Vontae in man coverage, where he is responsible for one receiver, no matter what that receiver does after the snap. He's not passing his man off on crossing routes. There's a big difference between what Sherman does and what Vontae does.

 

Quoted for CT Fletcher love... he's a character to say the least. 

[Superman]

Quoted for CT Fletcher love... he's a character to say the least. 

 

Oh yeah. I'd link some of his videos, but they're all NSFW. They're also all hilarious. I've met him several times; we're from the same area, know some of the same people. Basically the same guy you see in the videos. 

[SteelCityColt]

Oh yeah. I'd link some of his videos, but they're all NSFW. They're also all hilarious. I've met him several times; we're from the same area, know some of the same people. Basically the same guy you see in the videos. 

 

That's pretty awesome, as you say it's NSFW but his attitude is amazingly positive. 

 

I also enjoy BroScienceLife for a more fun take on the world of iron

[BleedBlu8792]

Oh yeah. I'd link some of his videos, but they're all NSFW. They're also all hilarious. I've met him several times; we're from the same area, know some of the same people. Basically the same guy you see in the videos.

A co-worker's brother played WR for IU and he said they had CT going pretty much non stop throughout the lockerroom and weight room. He's an absolute must have on while I'm in the gym. He definitely seems like one of those guys whose never met a stranger.

[BlueShoe]

First, great avatar. "I COMMAND YOU TO GROW!" 

 

Second, I think Sherman plays more zone than man. A lot of their Cover 3 looks like man because he tracks a player down the sideline and/or breaks on early throws because the Seahawks have a great pass rush. But Sherman more often than not doesn't cover his man across the hash; he passes him off and falls back to a zone look. He cheats to take away the sweet spots in their primary coverages, knowing that he has help. This is not always, but more often than you say, based on my observation.

 

And the zone looks that the Seahawks use in the secondary are almost non-existent in the Colts defense. When we did try to use them against the Steelers, we got ate up from the beginning of the game, with Vontae misplaying his assignment and giving up a TD (not officially, but watching the play, it was his fault). The Colts primarily play Vontae in man coverage, where he is responsible for one receiver, no matter what that receiver does after the snap. He's not passing his man off on crossing routes. There's a big difference between what Sherman does and what Vontae does.

 

Bingo.

 

Vontae is in the perfect defense that fits him best, and Sherman is in the perfect defense that fits him best. Vontae is a man corner, and Sherman is a zone corner. 

[Coffeedrinker]

I'm interested in the hands discussion.  And I will preface this with I really have no idea of davis has good hands or not, it does not really matter because he is one of the best CBs in the league.

 

Vontae has bad hands because he only had 4 INTs last year.  Revis has good hands because he had 2 INTs last year.  Sherman has good hands because he had 4 INTs last year.  I'm not sure I follow the logic of that.

 

Next we have passes defensed somehow translating to near interceptions.  I must admit, I have been around the game for a long time as both a player and a coach and while some dropped or near interceptions are listed as PDs in the stat sheet, I have never heard anyone say that one term is synonymous for the other.  There are a lot of PDs where the CB has no chance of an INT so I don't think it's quite logical to say that Vontae, The Disease, Davis has bad hands because he has a lot of PDs rather than INTs.

[BlueShoe]

I'm interested in the hands discussion.  And I will preface this with I really have no idea of davis has good hands or not, it does not really matter because he is one of the best CBs in the league.

 

Vontae has bad hands because he only had 4 INTs last year.  Revis has good hands because he had 2 INTs last year.  Sherman has good hands because he had 4 INTs last year.  I'm not sure I follow the logic of that.

 

Next we have passes defensed somehow translating to near interceptions.  I must admit, I have been around the game for a long time as both a player and a coach and while some dropped or near interceptions are listed as PDs in the stat sheet, I have never heard anyone say that one term is synonymous for the other.  There are a lot of PDs where the CB has no chance of an INT so I don't think it's quite logical to say that Vontae, The Disease, Davis has bad hands because he has a lot of PDs rather than INTs.

 

You got me brother. This stuff can get nuts around here. 

[Superman]

Vontae is in the perfect defense that fits him best, and Sherman is in the perfect defense that fits him best. Vontae is a man corner, and Sherman is a zone corner. 

 

I'm not pigeonholing either of them as this or that, but I do think they're both in schemes that fit them well. I don't think Sherman can play man coverage the way Vontae does.