What is Denver about to do?

[amfootball]

So they can do more. It's not hard to understand.

Bingo. There you go my friend. His contract is cost prohibitive to them being able to build the team they want right now which is why I said a few posts back you don't sign a 36 year old QB with an injury history to a 5 year $19 mil deal ...

[jvan1973]

Bingo. There you go my friend. His contract is cost prohibitive to them being able to build the team they want right now which is why I said a few posts back you don't sign a 36 year old QB with an injury history to a 5 year $19 mil deal ...

any contract over minimum ia prohibitive to bringing in more players.

[Superman]

Bingo. There you go my friend. His contract is cost prohibitive to them being able to build the team they want right now which is why I said a few posts back you don't sign a 36 year old QB with an injury history to a 5 year $19 mil deal ...

 

1) No, it's not cost prohibitive. And it hasn't been. The Broncos have been as active in free agency as any other team in the past three years.

 

2) Manning's deal was a year to year deal. They can revisit it at anytime. This is the point where it makes the most sense to do so. If they don't want him, they can release him and save $14-17m against the cap this year. The contract that Elway agreed to has no long term ramifications on the team, it wasn't heavily guaranteed, it didn't require the moving around of money.

 

This is a crusade on your part. There's nothing wrong with Manning's contract, nor has there been. And there's nothing wrong with how Elway has constructed the team. They didn't think John Fox was going to be the guy (something you've agreed with), so they replaced him. The new coaching staff hasn't even held a practice yet, but you've already decided that they suck. So I'm done. I stand by my previous comments.

[Superman]

any contract over minimum ia prohibitive to bringing in more players.

 

Never mind that. Both times Brady has done a team friendly contract, the Patriots have allowed playmakers to leave. So even a team friendly contract doesn't guarantee you a better roster.

[amfootball]

1) No, it's not cost prohibitive. And it hasn't been. The Broncos have been as active in free agency as any other team in the past three years.

 

2) Manning's deal was a year to year deal. They can revisit it at anytime. This is the point where it makes the most sense to do so. If they don't want him, they can release him and save $14-17m against the cap this year. The contract that Elway agreed to has no long term ramifications on the team, it wasn't heavily guaranteed, it didn't require the moving around of money.

 

This is a crusade on your part. There's nothing wrong with Manning's contract, nor has there been. And there's nothing wrong with how Elway has constructed the team. They didn't think John Fox was going to be the guy (something you've agreed with), so they replaced him. The new coaching staff hasn't even held a practice yet, but you've already decided that they suck. So I'm done. I stand by my previous comments.

Since when is being active in indication that a player's contract is not prohibitive? You are stretching big time here.

 

The ramifications are right now which is why he needs to redo it prior to March 9.

 

This isn't a crusade. Please. You seem to feel that way when anyone disagrees with you and has the points to back it up. I said Elway is a good GM. You think he is much better. We can agree to disagree here as we usually do. And stop putting words in my mouth. I never said the new coaching staff would stink but questioned if they would be any better than the previous coaching staff and I am not alone in that feeling.

[Superman]

Since when is being active in indication that a player's contract is not prohibitive? You are stretching big time here.

 

The ramifications are right now which is why he needs to redo it prior to March 9.

 

This isn't a crusade. Please. You seem to feel that way when anyone disagrees with you and has the points to back it up. I said Elway is a good GM. You think he is much better. We can agree to disagree here as we usually do. And stop putting words in my mouth. I never said the new coaching staff would stink but questioned if they would be any better than the previous coaching staff and I am not alone in that feeling.

 

If the player's contract were prohibitive, the team would be hard pressed to be active in free agency. Especially to the extent the Broncos have been. It's actually a stretch for you to even bring up Manning's contract in a discussion about Elway's GMing. The Titans were willing to pay Manning $25m/year. 

 

To the bolded: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon

 

I don't care how many question the coaching hires of the Broncos. I'm content to let time decide. There was a time when most people questioned the hiring of Pete Carroll in Seattle. There was a time before that when most people questioned the hiring of Bill Belichick in New England.

 

You don't have the points to back up this crusade. I said Elway has good offseasons. There's really no arguing that, despite your ranking of him in the GM hierarchy, which, predictably, comes back to nothing but SBs. End of the day, all added up, the Broncos under Elway have good offseasons, which is all I said.

[amfootball]

If the player's contract were prohibitive, the team would be hard pressed to be active in free agency. Especially to the extent the Broncos have been. It's actually a stretch for you to even bring up Manning's contract in a discussion about Elway's GMing. The Titans were willing to pay Manning $25m/year. 

 

To the bolded: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon

 

I don't care how many question the coaching hires of the Broncos. I'm content to let time decide. There was a time when most people questioned the hiring of Pete Carroll in Seattle. There was a time before that when most people questioned the hiring of Bill Belichick in New England.

 

You don't have the points to back up this crusade. I said Elway has good offseasons. There's really no arguing that, despite your ranking of him in the GM hierarchy, which, predictably, comes back to nothing but SBs. End of the day, all added up, the Broncos under Elway have good offseasons, which is all I said.

You can be active in FA and not always go for the top player or be prevented from signing the top guys because of cost prohibitive contracts. A 19 mil deal would be such a contract. But it is obvious that right now Elway sees Manning's contract as prohibitive to what moves he wants to do this off-season which may not be related to FA solely. He may have his sights set on a trade, maybe for AP, who knows. But suffice to say, signing a 36 old QB to a 5 year 19 mil deal was not a good contract. If it was than there would be no restructure.

 

Who is talking about the future? I am critiquing Elway based on his past. If Kubiak and Philips end up bringing in the ring that Elway so badly covets than his history will be revised as GM. But right now as I said, if he fails to win a ring with Manning then he will be viewed as a failure and even he would admit that as that was his goal for signing Manning in the first place.

 

And every single GM is judged on post-season success ... not sure why that bothers you so much.

[jvan1973]

You can be active in FA and not always go for the top player or be prevented from signing the top guys because of cost prohibitive contracts. A 19 mil deal would be such a contract. But it is obvious that right now Elway sees Manning's contract as prohibitive to what moves he wants to do this off-season which may not be related to FA solely. He may have his sights set on a trade, maybe for AP, who knows. But suffice to say, signing a 36 old QB to a 5 year 19 mil deal was not a good contract. If it was than there would be no restructure.

Who is talking about the future? I am critiquing Elway based on his past. If Kubiak and Philips end up bringing in the ring that Elway so badly covets than his history will be revised as GM. But right now as I said, if he fails to win a ring with Manning then he will be viewed as a failure and even he would admit that as that was his goal for signing Manning in the first place.

And every single GM is judged on post-season success ... not sure why that bothers you so much.

any GM would pay 19 mill a season for a qb to average 43, tds and win the division three times and be in position to go to superbowls. How much is flacco making?

[amfootball]

any GM would pay 19 mill a season for a qb to average 43, tds and win the division three times and be in position to go to superbowls. How much is flacco making?

Sure for 3 years not 5. Clearly Elway does not believe Manning is the same Qb as he was the last couple of seasons.

[Superman]

Who is talking about the future? I am critiquing Elway based on his past. 

 

And every single GM is judged on post-season success ... not sure why that bothers you so much.

 

There's little room to criticize what Elway has done in the past. Moves here and there that didn't work out don't mean he hasn't had good offseasons, and that's all I said.

 

And I don't care how you judge GMs; it doesn't bother me. But what happens in the postseason doesn't mean that a GM did or didn't have a good offseason.

[Superman]

Sure for 3 years not 5. Clearly Elway does not believe Manning is the same Qb as he was the last couple of seasons.

 

And here, they can walk away if they want. Or they can renegotiate, which is what they are reportedly doing. So what's the problem?

[amfootball]

There's little room to criticize what Elway has done in the past. Moves here and there that didn't work out don't mean he hasn't had good offseasons, and that's all I said.

 

And I don't care how you judge GMs; it doesn't bother me. But what happens in the postseason doesn't mean that a GM did or didn't have a good offseason.

Fair enough. Like I said he is a good GM. We will see where this next chapter takes him.

[amfootball]

And here, they can walk away if they want. Or they can renegotiate, which is what they are reportedly doing. So what's the problem?

What is the cap hit if they release him?

[Superman]

What is the cap hit if they release him?

 

$5m, or $2.5m in 2015 and 2016.

[amfootball]

$5m, or $2.5m in 2015 and 2016.

Those are not too bad but had they signed him to a three year deal they would be in the drivers seat in terms of a new deal with no hit IF they wanted to bring him back. I don't think he is coming down anywhere close to $10 like people believe.

[Superman]

Those are not too bad but had they signed him to a three year deal they would be in the drivers seat in terms of a new deal with no hit IF they wanted to bring him back. I don't think he is coming down anywhere close to $10 like people believe.

 

The only reason there's dead money now is because of the restructure they did in 2013. And that was mandated due to a weird CBA rule. They saved that money against the cap already.  The original contract had no signing bonus, no dead money at any point, with year to year voids tied to his physical. It was a five year package of one year deals. 

 

What happens with this restructure is anyone's guess. But again, the point is that they can pretty much do whatever they want. They're going to keep him because they want to.

[amfootball]

The only reason there's dead money now is because of the restructure they did in 2013. And that was mandated due to a weird CBA rule. They saved that money against the cap already.  The original contract had no signing bonus, no dead money at any point, with year to year voids tied to his physical. It was a five year package of one year deals. 

 

What happens with this restructure is anyone's guess. But again, the point is that they can pretty much do whatever they want. They're going to keep him because they want to.

Do you think they tack years on? That seems unlikely but I don't believe Manning has ever taken a pay cut? Not saying he would not do that but not sure if he should. Denver is a lot under the cap already.

[Superman]

Do you think they tack years on? That seems unlikely but I don't believe Manning has ever taken a pay cut? Not saying he would not do that but not sure if he should. Denver is a lot under the cap already.

 

Good players don't take pay cuts, so that's not really surprising.

 

If they tacked on additional years, with voids, they could spread his numbers out further. But I don't have any earthly idea what this potential restructure will look like.

[NewColtsFan]

Do you think they tack years on? That seems unlikely but I don't believe Manning has ever taken a pay cut? Not saying he would not do that but not sure if he should. Denver is a lot under the cap already.

 

I hate to break-up this private love fest between you and Superman.

 

Manning's contract was NOT a 5-year deal.     It was five ONE year deals.    Manning deliberately did that to make sure that if he had to retire early for whatever reason,  that Denver would not be hit hard over cap numbers.

 

You're arguing that Manning now being asked to take less now is proof his contract was a bad deal.   Strange.

 

Didn't some guy named Tom Brady just take less in his last deal.   I believe it's all guaranteed money, but it was less than his previous deal.    Does that mean the deal where he made more money was a bad deal too?

 

You argue that you do not sign a 36-year old QB with an injury history to such a large contract.    Except,  other than the neck, Manning had no injury history.   And the neck got cleared by every doctor.    And again,  Manning structured the deal in such a way as to not impact Denver badly should he have to retire early which he hasn't.

 

As to Manning and Denver down the stretch....  the reason Denver restructured their offense is due to (A) Manning's injury and (B) Ball's injury.

 

As to picking Ball over Lacy.....    shall we go through all the blown draft picks Belichick has made?    Goodness, it could be it's own thread here.    Bill has made a number of terrible picks,  much worse than Ball over Lacy.

 

Every GM makes mistakes.    It comes with the territory.   The key is not making too many, or ones that are too big.

 

As to the Super Bowl,  which you said Denver was favored, I was stunned.   I thought Seattle was.   If that's true, what could the margin have been?   Denver by 1 or 2?      When you get beat that bad,  the much better team won.   The line was bad.

 

But I'd say Elway's track record as GM of the Broncos says that he has nothing to apologize for.

[amfootball]

I hate to break-up this private love fest between you and Superman.

 

Manning's contract was NOT a 5-year deal.     It was five ONE year deals.    Manning deliberately did that to make sure that if he had to retire early for whatever reason,  that Denver would not be hit hard over cap numbers.

 

You're arguing that Manning now being asked to take less now is proof his contract was a bad deal.   Strange.

 

Didn't some guy named Tom Brady just take less in his last deal.   I believe it's all guaranteed money, but it was less than his previous deal.    Does that mean the deal where he made more money was a bad deal too?

 

You argue that you do not sign a 36-year old QB with an injury history to such a large contract.    Except,  other than the neck, Manning had no injury history.   And the neck got cleared by every doctor.    And again,  Manning structured the deal in such a way as to not impact Denver badly should he have to retire early which he hasn't.

 

As to Manning and Denver down the stretch....  the reason Denver restructured their offense is due to (A) Manning's injury and (B) Ball's injury.

 

As to picking Ball over Lacy.....    shall we go through all the blown draft picks Belichick has made?    Goodness, it could be it's own thread here.    Bill has made a number of terrible picks,  much worse than Ball over Lacy.

 

Every GM makes mistakes.    It comes with the territory.   The key is not making too many, or ones that are too big.

 

As to the Super Bowl,  which you said Denver was favored, I was stunned.   I thought Seattle was.   If that's true, what could the margin have been?   Denver by 1 or 2?      When you get beat that bad,  the much better team won.   The line was bad.

 

But I'd say Elway's track record as GM of the Broncos says that he has nothing to apologize for.

By all means break up the love fest.    Superman is one of my favorite posters up here even though we rarely agree. There was one time we did about Colin Kaepernick of all players. lol.

 

I don't want to rehash the whole thread but the only point I was arguing or really debating was Elway having great off-seasons. He has done a good job but he has had many poor decisions IMO and I think this latest coaching change may end up being his worst. Time with tell. But forcing Manning to adjust to a whole new coaching staff is really not something you want to do with a 39 year old QB who has had one offensive system his entire career and been madly successful with it.

 

In terms of Manning's deal, I just don't believe you give a QB 5 years at 19 mil even if it is one year deals especially with the neck history. What has happened is Manning gave them two and a half good years with the wheels starting to coming off mid-season last year and the sea change to the run game. Now they want him to restructure or potentially take a pay cut. It would have been wiser to sign him to a three year deal as even without the neck rarely do QBs at age 39 play at a level to command 19 mil. And what is plan B exactly? Osweiller? I guess we will see what he has got but previous to Manning, Elway had Orton and Tebow as his Qbs so not a lot of optimism there with good reason.

 

I believe Denver was a 3 point favorite. Not sure how you can say the line was bad when Denver entered the game with the most historic offense in NFL history. But Fox had the team woefully underprepared to play. I believe it was that game that got him fired this year. Elway had seen enough IMO.

[NewColtsFan]

By all means break up the love fest.    Superman is one of my favorite posters up here even though we rarely agree. There was one time we did about Colin Kaepernick of all players. lol.

 

I don't want to rehash the whole thread but the only point I was arguing or really debating was Elway having great off-seasons. He has done a good job but he has had many poor decisions IMO and I think this latest coaching change may end up being his worst. Time with tell. But forcing Manning to adjust to a whole new coaching staff is really not something you want to do with a 39 year old QB who has had one offensive system his entire career and been madly successful with it.

 

In terms of Manning's deal, I just don't believe you give a QB 5 years at 19 mil even if it is one year deals especially with the neck history. What has happened is Manning gave them two and a half good years with the wheels starting to coming off mid-season last year and the sea change to the run game. Now they want him to restructure or potentially take a pay cut. It would have been wiser to sign him to a three year deal as even without the neck rarely do QBs at age 39 play at a level to command 19 mil. And what is plan B exactly? Osweiller? I guess we will see what he has got but previous to Manning, Elway had Orton and Tebow as his Qbs so not a lot of optimism there with good reason.

 

I believe Denver was a 3 point favorite. Not sure how you can say the line was bad when Denver entered the game with the most historic offense in NFL history. But Fox had the team woefully underprepared to play. I believe it was that game that got him fired this year. Elway had seen enough IMO.

 

You gotta remember,  the injury that bothered Manning this year was NOT his neck,  but rather his quad.   His leg.

 

His neck has held up just fine.

 

I think the Broncos would bring Manning back at 19 mill per,  but they're simply saying to him....  "you've got a year or two left,  let's make the most of your remaining years.   Give back some salary and we'll re-invest that into the roster to give you the best chance of winning."

 

Really.    That's all this is.   

[Yehoodi]

I like Elway, but I am not going to crown his behind like some in this thread want to do.  Elway basically inherited a team and coach that went 8-8, won a division and was 1-1 in the playoffs with Tim Tebow under center.  Peyton Manning was hired and the team won three divisions, went 13-3, 13-3 and 12-4 and 2-3 in the playoffs with wins over not the greatest SD team and a pats team with a locker room attendant playing WR.  Two of their three losses have been really not the best showing.

 

So I will give Elway props for luring Manning to Denver.  I do think that we can credit some of the added wins to Manning.  For me an elite QB in place of an average QB can added as many as 2-4 wins in a given season, given all else is even, like players and strength of schedule, and how "bad" the last QB was under center.  So with Manning under center one would think the Broncos would go 12-4 to 10-6.  So okay they went a tad better than that, but I do credit a good deal of the improvement to the base team Elway inherited and the key job of brining Manning to Denver.

 

So for me it is more along the lines of Elway bring Manning and more or less holding serve and maintaining a solid inherited team.

 

Many times early success can be attributed to what one inherits.  Lets see how in the long term, say 5-7 years, Elway's record is and after Manning leaves.  Then we will see how well he is judged.  And also it will be interesting to see how they do without John Fox as their coach.  So lets not crown him just yet, I might have channel my inner Dennis Green.

 

As for Peyton's contract from what I recall is was basically a 5yr/100Millish contract with 60 mill guaranteed, first year guaranteed with years 2 and 3 guaranteed after first year physical, then two year end roster options for years 4 and 5.

 

The dicey part is now Peyton is in his two end of year team option/if he is on the team at the end of the prior year, slots.  He will be paid 20millish for each of the next two years.  So the question now is simply how do you deal with this issue.   You can leave it alone or adjust.

[jvan1973]

I like Elway, but I am not going to crown his behind like some in this thread want to do. Elway basically inherited a team and coach that went 8-8, won a division and was 1-1 in the playoffs with Tim Tebow under center. Peyton Manning was hired and the team won three divisions, went 13-3, 13-3 and 12-4 and 2-3 in the playoffs with wins over not the greatest SD team and a pats team with a locker room attendant playing WR. Two of their three losses have been really not the best showing.

So I will give Elway props for luring Manning to Denver. I do think that we can credit some of the added wins to Manning. For me an elite QB in place of an average QB can added as many as 2-4 wins in a given season, given all else is even, like players and strength of schedule, and how "bad" the last QB was under center. So with Manning under center one would think the Broncos would go 12-4 to 10-6. So okay they went a tad better than that, but I do credit a good deal of the improvement to the base team Elway inherited and the key job of brining Manning to Denver.

So for me it is more along the lines of Elway bring Manning and more or less holding serve and maintaining a solid inherited team.

Many times early success can be attributed to what one inherits. Lets see how in the long term, say 5-7 years, Elway's record is and after Manning leaves. Then we will see how well he is judged. And also it will be interesting to see how they do without John Fox as their coach. So lets not crown him just yet, I might have channel my inner Dennis Green.

As for Peyton's contract from what I recall is was basically a 5yr/100Millish contract with 60 mill guaranteed, first year guaranteed with years 2 and 3 guaranteed after first year physical, then two year end roster options for years 4 and 5.

The dicey part is now Peyton is in his two end of year team option/if he is on the team at the end of the prior year, slots. He will be paid 20millish for each of the next two years. So the question now is simply how do you deal with this issue. You can leave it alone or adjust.

actually they were 4-12 the year before elway became the executive vice president. Brian Xanders was still the GM, but elway started running things in 2011

[Superman]

I like Elway, but I am not going to crown his behind like some in this thread want to do.

 

Who wants to crown him?

 

Goodness, you say a guy has good offseasons, and people act like I want his face on the $20 bill.

 

As for Peyton's contract from what I recall is was basically a 5yr/100Millish contract with 60 mill guaranteed, first year guaranteed with years 2 and 3 guaranteed after first year physical, then two year end roster options for years 4 and 5.

 

That's how it was reported. That's not how it was. The first year was guaranteed, Years 2 and 3 were only guaranteed if he passed his physical in 2013, and 2014 could have been voided if he didn't pass another physical. It was a year to year deal, for all practical purposes, with no dead money in future years. 

[Superman]

By all means break up the love fest.    Superman is one of my favorite posters up here even though we rarely agree. There was one time we did about Colin Kaepernick of all players. lol.

 

I don't remember the Kaepernick agreement. Must have been a dream of yours. ;)

 

I think this latest coaching change may end up being his worst. 

 

I don't get it. You didn't like the previous staff, so it's not like you're saying they shouldn't have been fired. Doesn't this mean that you think the new coaches aren't good?

[amfootball]

I don't remember the Kaepernick agreement. Must have been a dream of yours. ;)

 

 

I don't get it. You didn't like the previous staff, so it's not like you're saying they shouldn't have been fired. Doesn't this mean that you think the new coaches aren't good?

The Kaepernick agreement was over his contract. We agreed about what he got paid and his potential. Others thought he was not worth it and had a low ceiling. Although now we both look wrong given his woes this past season but I think that might have had more to do with the FO and Harbaugh's issues.

 

In terms of the Denver staffs, I think the old staff was a poor fit for Manning. I have said this before but Fox is a coach that likes to run and play defense which is rather ironic given that is what Elway wants to do now but the Indy, high flying offense was not Fox. So I think it was more of a mismatch than the staff being poor. In fact, I really thought Fox's best season was in 2011 when he won the division with Tebow and a playoff game.

 

I do think this current staff is a down grade from Fox because I don't think Kubiak is a very good HC. And Phillips appears to just be a stop gap at DC. I don't fault Elway from moving on from Fox as he is under the gun to deliver a championship which everyone expected would have happened in the last three seasons and that SB was a debacle, I just question him bringing in his buddy. I get it on one level as Elway and him are tight and know each other and maybe they have success but if your Elway, you really want to bring in smart football people to run this team but I think similar to some of the other GMs, Elway likes to have a lot of control so it will be easier for him to control Kubiak. I also think they have a real issue at QB whether it is Manning at age 39 or Brock which is why Elway wants Manning to take the pay cut so he can beef up the team to be less QB reliant. I get that and think that is smart now we just have to see how he builds it and how it fares.

[Superman]

The Kaepernick agreement was over his contract. We agreed about what he got paid and his potential. Others thought he was not worth it and had a low ceiling. Although now we both look wrong given his woes this past season but I think that might have had more to do with the FO and Harbaugh's issues.

 

The structure of that contract is perfect for the Niners. His salary for 2014 and 2015 gets written down due to him not hitting incentives. And his guarantees are rolling, unlike Cutler's. If he plays well, he gets paid well. If not, he gets paid less, and they can get rid of him pretty much whenever. I still think his contract is fine. They'll pay an above average QB $12m in 2015.

 

And he wasn't really that bad in 2014. Statistically, right in line with his career. And he still made huge plays. He had one of those "I'm going to take you guys apart by myself" games against the Chargers in Week 16, trying to get them into the playoffs. Frank Gore, too. The Chargers offense was just too good in the second half, and the Niners stopped attacking the edge of their defense late in the game, where they were weakest.

I really thought Fox's best season was in 2011 when he won the division with Tebow and a playoff game.

 

2013 was better, but yeah, 2011 was a good job by that whole staff. Mike McCoy showed a ton of versatility and adaptability between 2011 and 2012, running four different offenses with three different QBs. 

 

I don't think Kubiak is a very good HC.   ....   And Phillips appears to just be a stop gap at DC.

I'm not really a fan, but we've seen coaches do better with better talent and better management many times in recent history. If Jim Caldwell can go to the playoffs in Detroit, Kubiak deserves the benefit of the doubt. He got to the playoffs with TJ Yates. Won a game, too.

 

Phillips is best in short doses. His defenses always improve in Year 1, then start to tail off.  

 

I just question him bringing in his buddy.

Meh. He made what he thought would be a good hire. He obviously wanted an experienced head coach, and Kubiak is a good fit given that they have zone blocking personnel, and 3-4 defensive players. He and Phillips aren't going to drop into three-deep and four-deep zones in the playoffs, I'm pretty sure.

[jvan1973]

The Kaepernick agreement was over his contract. We agreed about what he got paid and his potential. Others thought he was not worth it and had a low ceiling. Although now we both look wrong given his woes this past season but I think that might have had more to do with the FO and Harbaugh's issues.

In terms of the Denver staffs, I think the old staff was a poor fit for Manning. I have said this before but Fox is a coach that likes to run and play defense which is rather ironic given that is what Elway wants to do now but the Indy, high flying offense was not Fox. So I think it was more of a mismatch than the staff being poor. In fact, I really thought Fox's best season was in 2011 when he won the division with Tebow and a playoff game.

I do think this current staff is a down grade from Fox because I don't think Kubiak is a very good HC. And Phillips appears to just be a stop gap at DC. I don't fault Elway from moving on from Fox as he is under the gun to deliver a championship which everyone expected would have happened in the last three seasons and that SB was a debacle, I just question him bringing in his buddy. I get it on one level as Elway and him are tight and know each other and maybe they have success but if your Elway, you really want to bring in smart football people to run this team but I think similar to some of the other GMs, Elway likes to have a lot of control so it will be easier for him to control Kubiak. I also think they have a real issue at QB whether it is Manning at age 39 or Brock which is why Elway wants Manning to take the pay cut so he can beef up the team to be less QB reliant. I get that and think that is smart now we just have to see how he builds it and how it fares.

can you provide a link where elway says he wants Manning to take a cut?

[Superman]

can you provide a link where elway says he wants Manning to take a cut?

Because if he said it, there's a link of it. He wasn't shy about publicly negotiating Dumervil's pay cut, and he wasn't shy about sending in that release paperwork right before the strike of 4PM, Fax-gate be damned.

[amfootball]

 

The structure of that contract is perfect for the Niners. His salary for 2014 and 2015 gets written down due to him not hitting incentives. And his guarantees are rolling, unlike Cutler's. If he plays well, he gets paid well. If not, he gets paid less, and they can get rid of him pretty much whenever. I still think his contract is fine. They'll pay an above average QB $12m in 2015.

 

And he wasn't really that bad in 2014. Statistically, right in line with his career. And he still made huge plays. He had one of those "I'm going to take you guys apart by myself" games against the Chargers in Week 16, trying to get them into the playoffs. Frank Gore, too. The Chargers offense was just too good in the second half, and the Niners stopped attacking the edge of their defense late in the game, where they were weakest.

 

2013 was better, but yeah, 2011 was a good job by that whole staff. Mike McCoy showed a ton of versatility and adaptability between 2011 and 2012, running four different offenses with three different QBs. 

 

I'm not really a fan, but we've seen coaches do better with better talent and better management many times in recent history. If Jim Caldwell can go to the playoffs in Detroit, Kubiak deserves the benefit of the doubt. He got to the playoffs with TJ Yates. Won a game, too.

 

Phillips is best in short doses. His defenses always improve in Year 1, then start to tail off.  

 

Meh. He made what he thought would be a good hire. He obviously wanted an experienced head coach, and Kubiak is a good fit given that they have zone blocking personnel, and 3-4 defensive players. He and Phillips aren't going to drop into three-deep and four-deep zones in the playoffs, I'm pretty sure.

That Chargers game was as strange as the NFCCG game. I didn't even stay up to watch it and could not believe the niners blew it in the second half. I do think Kaep is going to continue to develop. He seems very determined to get better this off-season which is a good sign. I just hope the HC knows what he is doing. That by far was the strangest HC development of the off-season.

[-JJ-]

It is clear Elway got Manning (and other pro's) for the SB run "now format". ie the last two years. It failed although they got close.

Time to retool big time. Or maybe there is one more season of the win it now.

 

NE might have something to say about that tho :76devil:

[Synthetic]

John Elway is going to make the offense less predictable and less reliant on Peyton so that he can set the stage for moving on from Peyton, whether it happens this year or 2 years from now. So, they will be spending money on OL, front 7, and have more 2 RB or 1 RB/1 FB formations with blocking TEs.

 

 

 

 

This will never happen because it's Peyton Manning who absolutely hates running the ball if it takes away from him being hero on the field.

 

If they wanted to be a run type team, they would have kept John Fox, who argued with Manning to run the ball, and of course he didn't. It's kinda hard to run the ball when your quarterback and his ego refuse to allow it to happen. He proved this in the SB a few years back when Addai stopped getting hand offs despite having 100 rushing yards vs the Saints. 

 

 

They will win 10+ games again and lose in the first round again. Same old Manning. 

[oldunclemark]

Peyton hates to run and he wants to be a hero....again..sounds like junior high....

Fox didnt argue that manning should run the ball/.Fox let the offense do what they wanted. He's always done that.

The question again is: What are they setting up...Denver is clearing cap space...and its not to bring back Brandon Marshall (or even to acquire the other Brabdon Marshall)

Still looking for thoughts as to why..no old jealousies..

[chad72]

Peyton hates to run and he wants to be a hero....again..sounds like junior high....

Fox didnt argue that manning should run the ball/.Fox let the offense do what they wanted. He's always done that.

The question again is: What are they setting up...Denver is clearing cap space...and its not to bring back Brandon Marshall (or even to acquire the other Brabdon Marshall)

Still looking for thoughts as to why..no old jealousies..

 

If they are clearing up cap space to the extent of (say) $30 mil., it could mean this, IMO:

 

1. Leave open the possibility of Peyton returning without a huge re-structure (say his cap number is around $20 mil., maybe they are fine with a $15 mil. hit with a small cap relief from re-structure)
2. Re-sign Demaryius Thomas to at least a $10-12 mil. per year contract for certain
3. Re-sign Orlando Franklin
4. If Terrance Knighton leaves, sign another NT in the market like a Dan Williams from the Arizona Cardinals???
5. Heck, we have free agents like Darnell Dockett and Chris Canty who add depth to the DL, maybe sign one of them??? Or sign Devin McCourty to upgrade their safety position???

 

A combination of several of the above can be reasons for clearing the cap space???

[jvan1973]

This will never happen because it's Peyton Manning who absolutely hates running the ball if it takes away from him being hero on the field.

If they wanted to be a run type team, they would have kept John Fox, who argued with Manning to run the ball, and of course he didn't. It's kinda hard to run the ball when your quarterback and his ego refuse to allow it to happen. He proved this in the SB a few years back when Addai stopped getting hand offs despite having 100 rushing yards vs the Saints.

They will win 10+ games again and lose in the first round again. Same old Manning.

funny but it seems to me Manning had the nfls rushing leader in his back field twice. Way to be wrong again though

[Superman]

funny but it seems to me Manning had the nfls rushing leader in his back field twice. Way to be wrong again though

I don't get it. People say the wrongest stuff some times. At least they say it with confidence, even though it's entirely made up.

[amfootball]

If they are clearing up cap space to the extent of (say) $30 mil., it could mean this, IMO:

 

1. Leave open the possibility of Peyton returning without a huge re-structure (say his cap number is around $20 mil., maybe they are fine with a $15 mil. hit with a small cap relief from re-structure)
2. Re-sign Demaryius Thomas to at least a $10-12 mil. per year contract for certain
3. Re-sign Orlando Franklin
4. If Terrance Knighton leaves, sign another NT in the market like a Dan Williams from the Arizona Cardinals???
5. Heck, we have free agents like Darnell Dockett and Chris Canty who add depth to the DL, maybe sign one of them??? Or sign Devin McCourty to upgrade their safety position???

 

A combination of several of the above can be reasons for clearing the cap space???

Yes. Or they could be looking at trying to trade for AP or signing Suh.

[oldunclemark]

If they are clearing up cap space to the extent of (say) $30 mil., it could mean this, IMO:

• Leave open the possibility of Peyton returning without a huge re-structure (say his cap number is around $20 mil., maybe they are fine with a $15 mil. hit with a small cap relief from re-structure)
• Re-sign Demaryius Thomas to at least a $10-12 mil. per year contract for certain
• Re-sign Orlando Franklin
• If Terrance Knighton leaves, sign another NT in the market like a Dan Williams from the Arizona Cardinals???
• Heck, we have free agents like Darnell Dockett and Chris Canty who add depth to the DL, maybe sign one of them??? Or sign Devin McCourty to upgrade their safety position???

A combination of several of the above can be reasons for clearing the cap space???

All good points.....

they have enough money to sign 'or tag' Demariyus....but the Orlandio Franklin thing is still in doubt, from reports.

He's a better run blocker than pass blocker..and that may suit Denver long term..

They DO want McCourty..and Talib is supposedly 'recruiting' him

How old is Dockett.....age may not matter as Denver is in win-now mode

the nose tackle situation is especially intriguing...Knighton seems perfect for that slot but he knows it and his price may have

gone up..

..there is also word that Peyton Manning is 'campaiging' to resign Juliuis Thomas...while some feel he is soft and doesn't fit what Kubiak wants to do long term.. Kubiak likes TE Owen Daniels,..who has played for him..

There are a half dozen O-line free agent rumors.

[oldunclemark]

Yes. Or they could be looking at trying to trade for AP or signing Suh.

No chance of Adrian Peterson....Denver is set at RB...

....They'd love Suh but the price is extremely high..after signing Ware, Talib, Sanders and Ward last year

They'd have to ask Ryan Clady ($11 mil) to take a pay cut, too

[Fx Stryker]

Apparently Julius is seeking the most guaranteed money for a TE in history of the NFL. What does he deserve that for? Maybe the rumors he just wants his money, guaranteed would do that, and get out are true.

I don't get it. People say the wrongest stuff some times. At least they say it with confidence, even though it's entirely made up.

It's not like when Peyton went to Denver he said he loves having a back that can carry a load and the game when it's needed.. If I remember he was referring to Willis McGahee.