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What is Denver about to do?


oldunclemark

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its just not the question that's being asked...If you have no feelings on the subject.

...why the comments?

..isnt that the definition of trolling?

I said carry on and left it alone, until Jvan brought up my prediction from the beginning of the season lol

But I'm gone from the thread *peace sign*

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what cap space have they freed up?

Pot Roast was making 2 mil...and he has tweeted that contract talks don't look good ..

Obviously..Welker....$4 mil...Julius Thomas wasnt making anything but Orlando Franklin, I believe, was at 3 mil.

Jacob Tamme...$2....Manny Ramirez, Will Montogemery..they wont be back..Both were at $2 mil

they had cap space to begin with but I assumed they'd use it to sign Knighton and Franklin. If that's not happening and

and If Peyton gets a reworking to slide $10 mil to next year (when he may retire) or to 2017 (when he certainly will be at home)

That's about 25 mil (give or take a few bags of cash) on top of what they had.

Nobody knows but, in light of the flurry of signings last year and assuming there's a plan,, I'm just curious as to who they want

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The next QB is Brock Osweiler..He fits Kubiak's roll put stretch run style...Kubiak says he reminds him of Joe Flacco.

remember..Elway and Kubiak are QBs..Dont buy all this 'we want to run all the time' s[in

Lol I know right!?!

Besides, every team wants to run all the time. That doesn't exactly work all the time.

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There is no reason why Denver cannot reposition their talent to both go for the title in 2015 and transition away from Manning. I believe it was the Denver O that let them down late in the season and in the playoff game. Making some changes may have been a year too late, actually.

Not bringing back Tamme, JT, and Welker is no great loss.

I think their gameplans on offense and defense were the problem in the playoff game. Terrible, IMO.
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I think their gameplans on offense and defense were the problem in the playoff game. Terrible, IMO.

I agree. I am not sure how much better they are with the current staff. When Kubiak was HC in Texas his offense was vanilla and predicable. I am sure Qwiz can weigh in here and Wade Philips is a good DC but also one that can be predictable with his 3-4. Between Del Rio and Philips, Elway has hired two defensive coaches that Brady has tooled on his entire career.

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Pot Roast was making 2 mil...and he has tweeted that contract talks don't look good ..

Obviously..Welker....$4 mil...Julius Thomas wasnt making anything but Orlando Franklin, I believe, was at 3 mil.

Jacob Tamme...$2....Manny Ramirez, Will Montogemery..they wont be back..Both were at $2 mil

they had cap space to begin with but I assumed they'd use it to sign Knighton and Franklin. If that's not happening and

and If Peyton gets a reworking to slide $10 mil to next year (when he may retire) or to 2017 (when he certainly will be at home)

That's about 25 mil (give or take a few bags of cash) on top of what they had.

Nobody knows but, in light of the flurry of signings last year and assuming there's a plan,, I'm just curious as to who they want

You may be right. They may be looking at bringing in Suh which I think would be a mistake as they need to retool other areas and he will cost way too much.

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I think their gameplans on offense and defense were the problem in the playoff game. Terrible, IMO.

I think the O game plan was partially dictated by Manning's inability to be accurate down field, in part due to Manning's arm/leg and limited opportunities given to Sanders/Thomas by Davis/Toler.  Shorter options like Welker/Thomas ain't the same as Edlemann/Gronk.  The Colts have beat them 2 out of three times now and lost the one game by a TD.  I think the Colts simply match up pretty well against the Broncos.

 

Of the players mentioned not being with the Broncos, I really don't see where losing them would be detrimental to their chances of repeating this year.  Money saved by cutting them WILL be spent on new FAs.

 

I think Manning's abilities will take them to the playoffs or keep them from getting there.

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Isn't that smart of Elway? Even if Manning plays two more years, eventually, he's out of there. And rather than being left looking at a rebuild with only a collection of spare parts, he wants to have a team that can still be good, even without an All-World QB. I don't know why that's being treated like it's a foreign concept.

 

I was never of the opinion that the Broncos were only trying to load up for a short run at a SB with Manning. None of their contracts are prohibitive or difficult to navigate, and their year to year cap projections are solid. 

 

Definitely agree with all this... Elway will still be the GM after Peyton's done. It's smart. Whether it's Osweiler or a veteran FA or a draft pick, they can plug someone in there and still be decent. 

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Isn't that smart of Elway? Even if Manning plays two more years, eventually, he's out of there. And rather than being left looking at a rebuild with only a collection of spare parts, he wants to have a team that can still be good, even without an All-World QB. I don't know why that's being treated like it's a foreign concept.

 

I was never of the opinion that the Broncos were only trying to load up for a short run at a SB with Manning. None of their contracts are prohibitive or difficult to navigate, and their year to year cap projections are solid. 

 

 

 

What I'm very interested to see is if Manning agrees to a restructure or actually takes a pay cut . I think he's probably under pressure to do the latter as this is what everyone has viewed Brady to have done. Actually what Brady did was rake in about 40-50 mill up front and give the Pats a bargain in years 38-40 of his career. It still is no guaranteed bargain as we don't know if he can really be good at 39 and 40. I'll give him 2015 .. his 38 year. I going to guess he does a little of both. Something like taking a 2-3 mill cut in 2015 base and maybe push the rest of the savings into a signing bonus.

 

That said , does he insist they somehow keep both Thomas guys. Can only franchise 1 and they are talking about the tag for D Thomas. If that's the case , the bidding could bet crazy for the TE. Oakland and Jack both HAVE to spend considerable money this year due to CBA agreement on cap spending. They also have O line issues they need to address.

 

Should be interesting to say the least. What's you prediction on PM reducing his cap hit. We know it's happening but big difference in him taking a reduced salary than pushing it down the road. Pushing down the road is really like flushing down the toilet as they will for sure eat anything prorated.

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I agree. I am not sure how much better they are with the current staff. When Kubiak was HC in Texas his offense was vanilla and predicable. I am sure Qwiz can weigh in here and Wade Philips is a good DC but also one that can be predictable with his 3-4. Between Del Rio and Philips, Elway has hired two defensive coaches that Brady has tooled on his entire career.

 

They haven't coached a game yet, at least not in Denver.

 

I know all about Wade Phillips. He's a good short term DC. Not worried about Brady's record vs him, nor should Elway be. The Broncos beat the Pats in the AFCCG in 2013 with Del Rio, so it's not that critical of an issue. Besides, you don't build your team to beat one team. Kubiak and Phillips work well together, that's the point.

 

Also, my criticism of the Broncos' gameplans in the playoffs this year are really specific. And they were on both sides of the ball. It's kind of surprising to me that Del Rio and Gase were so passive in their playcalling in that game.

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I think the O game plan was partially dictated by Manning's inability to be accurate down field, in part due to Manning's arm/leg and limited opportunities given to Sanders/Thomas by Davis/Toler.  Shorter options like Welker/Thomas ain't the same as Edlemann/Gronk.  The Colts have beat them 2 out of three times now and lost the one game by a TD.  I think the Colts simply match up pretty well against the Broncos.

 

Of the players mentioned not being with the Broncos, I really don't see where losing them would be detrimental to their chances of repeating this year.  Money saved by cutting them WILL be spent on new FAs.

 

I think Manning's abilities will take them to the playoffs or keep them from getting there.

 

Their passing concepts weren't just restricted by an inability on Manning's part to throw downfield. They tried to go downfield, but the coverage was excellent. I don't really put that on Manning. That's our strength. They were also hurt by drops and poor execution in the short passing game.

 

But what they should have done is attack the middle of the field, use crossing patterns, try to pick on our ILBs, go up the seam with JT, etc. And then, our entire defense would have been stressed. Everything they did over the middle was extra conservative. Put some of that on Manning, but they should have refocused on our weak spots, and they didn't. You're right, we match up well with them overall, but they still could have gameplanned against our weaknesses.

 

If they lose JT, that's a big blow in the red zone. He's a top notch weapon, a TD machine. And if they lose Knighton, that's a big hole in the middle of their defense. He's not the kind of interior lineman that Phillips usually has, and he'll be easier to replace. I think Jordan Phillips is a good match for them. But overall, they can retool and probably build a roster with no real weaknesses, on paper. 

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They haven't coached a game yet, at least not in Denver.

 

I know all about Wade Phillips. He's a good short term DC. Not worried about Brady's record vs him, nor should Elway be. The Broncos beat the Pats in the AFCCG in 2013 with Del Rio, so it's not that critical of an issue. Besides, you don't build your team to beat one team. Kubiak and Phillips work well together, that's the point.

 

Also, my criticism of the Broncos' gameplans in the playoffs this year are really specific. And they were on both sides of the ball. It's kind of surprising to me that Del Rio and Gase were so passive in their playcalling in that game.

Yeah, I just don't see much of an upgrade at the coaching maybe more of a down grade actually if you compare Kubiak with Fox and then Del Rio with Philips. Elway for sure hired his buddy. It may work out but usually they don't in most cases.

 

The Brady point was not to suggest that they build their team to stop the Pats or Brady but right now the Pats stand in their way of where they want to go and they hired a DC that Brady absolutely tools on. A head scratching move IMO and that is just one reason why.

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Should be interesting to say the least. What's you prediction on PM reducing his cap hit. We know it's happening but big difference in him taking a reduced salary than pushing it down the road. Pushing down the road is really like flushing down the toilet as they will for sure eat anything prorated.

 

No idea. I think Manning and Condon have seen what the Patriots did when Brady took a team friendly deal. Both times, they let playmakers walk over a few bucks, and it affected their ability to win big games.

 

So I do think Manning wants some sort of assurances regarding their plans for this offseason. I don't know that he's in any position to demand this or that, and I don't think he would. But I also don't think he wants to agree to restructure his deal and even take a pay cut, only to watch the Broncos let the roster get stripped in free agency. If they are going to commit to building the best possible roster that they can in 2015, in line with their long term vision, then I could see him taking an actual pay cut.

 

But I don't know anything.

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Yeah, I just don't see much of an upgrade at the coaching maybe more of a down grade actually if you compare Kubiak with Fox and then Del Rio with Philips. Elway for sure hired his buddy. It may work out but usually they don't in most cases.

 

The Brady point was not to suggest that they build their team to stop the Pats or Brady but right now the Pats stand in their way of where they want to go and they hired a DC that Brady absolutely tools on. A head scratching move IMO and that is just one reason why.

 

Meh. I'm not a huge fan of Kubiak and Phillips, but I don't see either of them as downgrades over their predecessors. As a matter of fact, Kubiak and Dennison are probably better gameplanners than Fox and Gase. To me, Gase is unproven. I know Manning likes him, but he's done nothing but call plays for one of the most engaged QBs the league has ever seen. 

 

Also, the Texans had bad rosters and bad QBs. This will be the most talented roster Kubiak has ever had, hands down, assuming they have a good offseason (and Elway always has good offseasons). 

 

Phillips had was 13-3, 9-7, and 11-5 in Dallas, before his final half season. That includes some long stretches without Romo. And they had some pretty good defenses. It's not like he's a train wreck. And everyone knows he's a good defensive coach. 

 

Lastly, you keep coming back to this "vs Brady" thing, and I guess the crux of the matter is I don't think it's relevant. The Pats don't stand in anyone's way until they are actually in the way. It's a big offseason for them, also.

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Meh. I'm not a huge fan of Kubiak and Phillips, but I don't see either of them as downgrades over their predecessors. As a matter of fact, Kubiak and Dennison are probably better gameplanners than Fox and Gase. To me, Gase is unproven. I know Manning likes him, but he's done nothing but call plays for one of the most engaged QBs the league has ever seen. 

 

Also, the Texans had bad rosters and bad QBs. This will be the most talented roster Kubiak has ever had, hands down, assuming they have a good offseason (and Elway always has good offseasons). 

 

Phillips had was 13-3, 9-7, and 11-5 in Dallas, before his final half season. That includes some long stretches without Romo. And they had some pretty good defenses. It's not like he's a train wreck. And everyone knows he's a good defensive coach. 

 

Lastly, you keep coming back to this "vs Brady" thing, and I guess the crux of the matter is I don't think it's relevant. The Pats don't stand in anyone's way until they are actually in the way. It's a big offseason for them, also.

Yeah, they don't do much for me either as a combo but we will see where it goes. Different team, GM, QB so who knows but if I was a Denver fan I would not be too psyched.

 

Every off-season is big for every team but Denver has the most work to do IMO than the other AFC contenders and a new coaching staff to boot. We will see how it all comes together. And I disagree that Elway always has good off-seasons. He has hits and misses like everyone else and one could argue that his hires last year while talented players and worth the contracts, the players themselves have said the team had no chemistry. And that is where I think Elways lacks compared to someone like a Belichick or an Ozzie. The nuances of the GM job in getting the right players both talent-wise and locker room wise. Not an easy thing and he is still learning so we will see how it goes for him.

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And I disagree that Elway always has good off-seasons. He has hits and misses like everyone else 

 

By that logic, no one has good offseasons. But that's not the way it works.

 

  • In 2011, they went from 4-12 to 8-8. Hired John Fox, had a strong draft (Von Miller, Rahim Moore, JT), and a decent free agent class.
  • In 2012, they signed Peyton Manning. Won 13 games, had the best record in the conference, draft wasn't great, free agent class was okay, but highlighted by Manning, and that move alone pretty much catapulted their team into contention.
  • In 2013, they again had home field, went to the SB, added Knighton, DRC, Phillips, and Welker, and had a good draft.
  • In 2014, they added Ward, Talib, Sanders and Ware, had a decent draft. Their last two draft classes will really come into play in 2015, IMO.

Elway always has good offseasons.

 

and one could argue that his hires last year while talented players and worth the contracts, the players themselves have said the team had no chemistry. And that is where I think Elways lacks compared to someone like a Belichick or an Ozzie. The nuances of the GM job in getting the right players both talent-wise and locker room wise. Not an easy thing and he is still learning so we will see how it goes for him

 

They put together a strong roster every year, and have added good players every year. Chemistry and locker room issues are mostly coaching, and sometimes just a residual of having a substandard season (nothing wrong with 12-4, but they tailed off late in the year and didn't get where they wanted). 

 

None of that is a knock on Elway unless you're just itching to knock Elway. And it seems like you are. For whatever reason, there's a nitpick about the coaching hires, a nitpick about the free agent acquisitions (admittedly good players and good contracts), etc. 

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By that logic, no one has good offseasons. But that's not the way it works.

 

  • In 2011, they went from 4-12 to 8-8. Hired John Fox, had a strong draft (Von Miller, Rahim Moore, JT), and a decent free agent class.
  • In 2012, they signed Peyton Manning. Won 13 games, had the best record in the conference, draft wasn't great, free agent class was okay, but highlighted by Manning, and that move alone pretty much catapulted their team into contention.
  • In 2013, they again had home field, went to the SB, added Knighton, DRC, Phillips, and Welker, and had a good draft.
  • In 2014, they added Ward, Talib, Sanders and Ware, had a decent draft. Their last two draft classes will really come into play in 2015, IMO.

Elway always has good offseasons.

 

 

They put together a strong roster every year, and have added good players every year. Chemistry and locker room issues are mostly coaching, and sometimes just a residual of having a substandard season (nothing wrong with 12-4, but they tailed off late in the year and didn't get where they wanted). 

 

None of that is a knock on Elway unless you're just itching to knock Elway. And it seems like you are. For whatever reason, there's a nitpick about the coaching hires, a nitpick about the free agent acquisitions (admittedly good players and good contracts), etc. 

I think Elway is a good GM but obviously you have a much higher opinion of him than me.

 

Most will look at him as a failure if he does not get a ring with Manning which seems remote right now. Of course while it was a nice feather in his cap to get Manning to come to Denver in 2012, it cost him nothing but a phone call and of course the $19 mil every year guaranteed based on a physical. Of course that is the contract right now that is trying to restructure. He didn't have the foresight really that Bill and company did with Brady to realize that a QB north of 35 with multiple neck surgeries to boot is not a player you want on a 5 year deal at 19 mil a year.

 

Then of course there is the Dumerville debacle which I am sure you will blame on the fax machine.

 

Then there is the signing of Welker who gave him 8 good games out of 16, make that 13 or was it 12? He did not really make it to the end given the concussions which are not hard to predict for a player of Welker's age and wear and tear when he signed him.

 

Then there was Monte Ball. Terrible pick when he could have had Lacy. A big gaffe given he now wants to focus on the run game to take pressure off of his 39 yr old QB who he is paying $19 mil but trying to restructure.

 

Then there is Fox. A coach that Elway said himself could not get his players to play a game where they refuse to go out without kicking and screaming. A coach that admitted he was not prepared for the noise at a Super Bowl. And a coach that told Manning to take a knee in the divisional round of the playoffs vs the Ravens where there was still time for a GW drive in regulation. And of course you already touched on the ineptness of Gase. These are Ewlays hires.

 

Now he has brought in his buddy to coach with a DC who is even worse than his previous one. So again, we diverge greatly on Elway's prowess as GM ... some good, some really bad.

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I think Elway is a good GM but obviously you have a much higher opinion of him than me.

 

Most will look at him as a failure if he does not get a ring with Manning which seems remote right now. Of course while it was a nice feather in his cap to get Manning to come to Denver in 2012, it cost him nothing but a phone call and of course the $19 mil every year guaranteed based on a physical. Of course that is the contract right now that is trying to restructure. He didn't have the foresight really that Bill and company did with Brady to realize that a QB north of 35 with multiple neck surgeries to boot is not a player you want on a 5 year deal at 19 mil a year.

 

Then of course there is the Dumerville debacle which I am sure you will blame on the fax machine.

 

Then there is the signing of Welker who gave him 8 good games out of 16, make that 13 or was it 12? He did not really make it to the end given the concussions which are not hard to predict for a player of Welker's age and wear and tear when he signed him.

 

Then there was Monte Ball. Terrible pick when he could have had Lacy. A big gaffe given he now wants to focus on the run game to take pressure off of his 39 yr old QB who he is paying $19 mil but trying to restructure.

 

Then there is Fox. A coach that Elway said himself could not get his players to play a game where they refuse to go out without kicking and screaming. A coach that admitted he was not prepared for the noise at a Super Bowl. And a coach that told Manning to take a knee in the divisional round of the playoffs vs the Ravens where there was still time for a GW drive in regulation. And of course you already touched on the ineptness of Gase. These are Ewlays hires.

 

Now he has brought in his buddy to coach with a DC who is even worse than his previous one. So again, we diverge greatly on Elway's prowess as GM ...

 

He took a 4-12 team and turned it into a title contender. You're claiming he'll be a failure if they don't get a ring, when they were a dumpster fire before he got there 4 seasons ago. That's ironic. Those expectations only exist because of the fact that he's built a contender.

 

And more about the Dumervil situation... they cut a player they didn't think was worth his salary. It wasn't a debacle, it was a cap management situation. The fax machine is immaterial. 

 

Every GM can be picked apart for bad moves. Didn't Ozzie draft Matt Elam and Arthur Brown in 2013, and then watch his team miss the playoffs? What's more important is the overall direction of the team. And there's no question that Elway has run his team well. I'm not praising him as a savant, I'm not calling him the best in the league. I simply said he always has good offseasons. I really don't think it's arguable.

 

Also, it makes zero sense to be critical of the Manning signing or contract. Manning's contract hasn't limited the Broncos from doing whatever they've wanted, and his play has been the single biggest difference maker for them. 

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He took a 4-12 team and turned it into a title contender. You're claiming he'll be a failure if they don't get a ring, when they were a dumpster fire before he got there 4 seasons ago. That's ironic. Those expectations only exist because of the fact that he's built a contender.

 

And more about the Dumervil situation... they cut a player they didn't think was worth his salary. It wasn't a debacle, it was a cap management situation. The fax machine is immaterial. 

 

Every GM can be picked apart for bad moves. Didn't Ozzie draft Matt Elam and Arthur Brown in 2013, and then watch his team miss the playoffs? What's more important is the overall direction of the team. And there's no question that Elway has run his team well. I'm not praising him as a savant, I'm not calling him the best in the league. I simply said he always has good offseasons. I really don't think it's arguable.

 

Also, it makes zero sense to be critical of the Manning signing or contract. Manning's contract hasn't limited the Broncos from doing whatever they've wanted, and his play has been the single biggest difference maker for them. 

Are you saying he won't be viewed as a failure if he does not win a ring with Manning? He said himself when he signed Manning that it was great to get him but the proof would be getting the championship. Not to mention if there is any GM that has experience in winning titles late in his career it was Elway but his teams with Manning have gone one and done twice and got its doors blown off by a Seattle team they were favored to beat in the SB. I think he will be judged very harshly for that and rightfully so.

 

Of course you can nitpick GMs which is why I said to you in the first place that he has not always had solid off-seasons. There is much he can be criticized for from player moves to coaching moves.

 

Also, if Manning's contract does not prohibit them from anything then why are they trying to restructure now with two years to go?

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Are you saying he won't be viewed as a failure if he does not win a ring with Manning? He said himself when he signed Manning that it was great to get him but the proof would be getting the championship. Not to mention if there is any GM that has experience in winning titles late in his career it was Elway but his teams with Manning have gone one and done twice and got its doors blown off by a Seattle team they were favored to beat in the SB. I think he will be judged very harshly for that and rightfully so.

 

Of course you can nitpick GMs which is why I said to you in the first place that he has not always had solid off-seasons. There is much he can be criticized for from player moves to coaching moves.

 

Also, if Manning's contract does not prohibit them from anything then why are they trying to restructure now with two years to go?

 

I love this circular logic that you so often promote. Please, help me understand what Manning's contract has prevented the Broncos from doing.

 

GMs build playoff teams. Coaches and players have to do their part to bring home Super Bowls. The shortcomings the Broncos have had are not Elway's fault. Me saying that he always has good offseasons doesn't mean there aren't things he can be criticized for. But again, you can criticize every GM, even the very best, on a case by case basis. But he still has good offseasons. Always.

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I love this circular logic that you so often promote. Please, help me understand what Manning's contract has prevented the Broncos from doing.

 

GMs build playoff teams. Coaches and players have to do their part to bring home Super Bowls. The shortcomings the Broncos have had are not Elway's fault. Me saying that he always has good offseasons doesn't mean there aren't things he can be criticized for. But again, you can criticize every GM, even the very best, on a case by case basis. But he still has good offseasons. Always.

Then why are they asking him to restructure now with two years to go and $20 mil+ in cap room on top?

 

The buck stops with the GM. If players and coaches fail it rolls up to the GM. That is the way it goes - he makes the coaching hires, he Oks the player moves.

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