this new emphasis on defensive holding and pass interference is destroying the game

[CR91]

None of that is true.

 

im not the only one that has noticed. check the thread and youll see it mentioned a few times

[Superman]

im not the only one that has noticed. check the thread and youll see it mentioned a few times

 

Doesn't matter how many other people are saying the same wrong thing you're saying. It's still wrong and untrue.

[CR91]

Doesn't matter how many other people are saying the same wrong thing you're saying. It's still wrong and untrue.

 

you need to watch more games then

[Superman]

you need to watch more games then

 

LOL

 

That's rich. 

[Blue Horseshoe]

grabbing and holding? you look at the wr wrong and you get a flag. I guess youre ok with wrs crying for a flag 

 

I'd love to see a single case of a flag for looking at a wide receiver wrong.

[CR91]

I'd love to see a single case of a flag for looking at a wide receiver wrong.

 

[DougDew]

Football isn't basketball though. There has always been some grabbing and holding throughout its history. The fact that they want guys to cover with no contact has never been part of the sport.

Players can't fight for position when the ball is in the air. If they are both jumping for the ball, they will inevitably converge and make contact with each other, but that's different than grabbing, holding, or arm-barring another player to establish superior position. That has never been part of the passing game.

[bap1331]

I didn't see any grabbing by Revis but I saw him get pushed off like the other DBs all day. They were blatant and not one was called. 

 

ive seen the Patriots get away with more in one year than the history of the NFL. I would see 4 calls that were never called in one play with the Colts all over the field. Its bad up to the point where theres no way that the refs could miss that. Unless they were betting like the NBA refs...

[MJD42]

They don't want guys to cover with no contact. Nice strawman.

 

Also, congratulations on missing the point.

Oh, there was a point to your basketball analogy? My bad then.

 

After 5 yards they want no contact but the emphasis is not the issue but the way the calls are being made - inconsistent because it is football and there is always going to be some grabbing, holding, pushing just like how the Oline could get called for holding most plays but don't because it would be a flag parade. You have to be able to judge what is impeding the play and what is not, this new emphasis takes the judgement away from the refs and is giving the offense free yards and plays.

[TAPLOOK]

correct call? how is running into a defender draw a flag? 

 

 

When it's Hilton or Wayne.

[TAPLOOK]

Then throw the flag on time.          There...I took care of the old man back judge

 

 

I'm not sure why there are so many delayed flags nowadays. Maybe the officials are trained to be more deliberate in that way? You see it every game.

[BrentMc11]

I'm not sure why there are so many delayed flags nowadays. Maybe the officials are trained to be more deliberate in that way? You see it every game.

I agree.  I really hate it when the flag flies AFTER the play, THEN the ref says...."Before the pass...defensive Holding"  What the hell took the old man THAT long to figure it out

[OffensivelyPC]

The re-emphasis on holding and PI calls wouldn't be so bad if they were equally zelous in calling the picks WRs make on DBs.  In fairness, you can run routes and criss cross guys to redirect the defenders.  Obviously the guys who straight up run into defenders or even block them should be called (though I think its missed more often than not).  But when I see guys make a post up move and "call for the ball" right on the blind side of a DB, it's maddening.  That's the kinda crap that shouldn't be allowed.  If it's blatantly obvious to me, it should be obvious to the refs.  And if hte problem is the letter or the rule, then the rule needs to be clarified.

[JerodMayo51]

ive seen the Patriots get away with more in one year than the history of the NFL. I would see 4 calls that were never called in one play with the Colts all over the field. Its bad up to the point where theres no way that the refs could miss that. Unless they were betting like the NBA refs...

Go watch the 2006 AFCCG then come back and talk to me about lopsided officiating

[MJD42]

ive seen the Patriots get away with more in one year than the history of the NFL. I would see 4 calls that were never called in one play with the Colts all over the field. Its bad up to the point where theres no way that the refs could miss that. Unless they were betting like the NBA refs...

What? Patriots are the most penalized team in the league this year. And they had MORE penalties than the Colts in that annihilation game. But hey whatever you need to believe to fuel the hate, right?

[JerodMayo51]

What? Patriots are the most penalized team in the league this year. And they had MORE penalties than the Colts in that annihilation game. But hey whatever you need to believe to fuel the hate, right?

Yea its like they believe if they say it enough times it makes it true.

Nobody has more penalties than the Pats this year, but ask some people around here and Kraft has all the refs in his back pocket!

Good teams don't leave the game in the refs hands.. and I still hold a huge grudge against Polian and Manning for whining to the competition committee after the 2003 season because all the bully defenses were playing too rough..

That whining lead to all the new emphasis on Def holding and PI so that fast, timing based offenses like the Colts at the time could throw up 300+ yards and 3+ touchdowns every single week.

The Colts planned their entire offensive strategy around the new emphasis to take advantage and get MManning his records.. go watch the clip of Manning and Stokely in 2005 on the sideline, where he's asking Manning why they aren't going all air mode and Manning literally says to him "nah, we cant.. last year was different"

Of course it was Manning... of course it was.. you and polian whined for an entire offseason to get the rules enforced differently to benefit the style and makeup of your team that played in a dome on astro turf at least 9 games a year.

It was poetic justice though after using the Patriots defense in 2003 as their example and excuse for being beat, the "high powered" offense managed to score 3 points in what was one of the biggest beatings / choke jobs of all time.

Karma baby.

[dgambill]

If anything the hands to the face call has really been the only change I've seen this year in emphasis from the officials. I like it don't get me wrong but sometimes a guys hand on the OL or DL slides up and hits the face mask....but if they take it down quickly I think they should let that go as incidental contact...only when they are forcing the guys head back with it....otherwise honestly I haven't noticed much of a change in the OVERALL officiating....sure there are outlier calls every game but the overall tone of the game hasn't changed imo.

[BOTT]

Yea its like they believe if they say it enough times it makes it true.

Nobody has more penalties than the Pats this year, but ask some people around here and Kraft has all the refs in his back pocket!

Good teams don't leave the game in the refs hands.. and I still hold a huge grudge against Polian and Manning for whining to the competition committee after the 2003 season because all the bully defenses were playing too rough..

That whining lead to all the new emphasis on Def holding and PI so that fast, timing based offenses like the Colts at the time could throw up 300+ yards and 3+ touchdowns every single week.

The Colts planned their entire offensive strategy around the new emphasis to take advantage and get MManning his records.. go watch the clip of Manning and Stokely in 2005 on the sideline, where he's asking Manning why they aren't going all air mode and Manning literally says to him "nah, we cant.. last year was different"

Of course it was Manning... of course it was.. you and polian whined for an entire offseason to get the rules enforced differently to benefit the style and makeup of your team that played in a dome on astro turf at least 9 games a year.

It was poetic justice though after using the Patriots defense in 2003 as their example and excuse for being beat, the "high powered" offense managed to score 3 points in what was one of the biggest beatings / choke jobs of all time.

Karma baby.

Your first sentence applies well to your silly rant that followed.

[BOTT]

grabbing and holding? you look at the wr wrong and you get a flag. I guess youre ok with wrs crying for a flag

You sound like a talking head who just regurgitates nonsense

[GoPats]

I was looking for something more recent but this popped up first. This is from way back on October 11th, so it only reflects the first five weeks of this season.

 

 

Statistics released by the league on Friday reveal that through the first five weeks of the season, there have been nearly four times as many illegal contact penalties as there were through the first five weeks of 2013. And there have been more than twice as many defensive holding penalties. Illegal contact has increased from 15 calls in Weeks 1-5 last year to 59 calls this year. Defensive holding has increased from 52 in Weeks 1-5 last year to 115 this year.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/10/11/illegal-contact-quadruples-defensive-holding-doubles-from-2013/

 

 

 

Here's a (slightly) more recent one, from October 18th, and reflecting data through week six. 

 

In apples-to-apples comparisons of NFL data for 2014 vs. 2013, through Week 6, it measures as such:

• Defensive holding: 138 vs. 63.
• Illegal contact: 63 vs. 16.
• Illegal use of hands: 93 vs. 36.
• Total penalties per game: 16.9 vs. 14.6.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/columnist/bell/2014/10/18/bell-tolls-nfl-officials-ruining-games-with-absurd-penalties/17504559/

[Superman]

I was looking for something more recent but this popped up first. This is from way back on October 11th, so it only reflects the first five weeks of this season.

Statistics released by the league on Friday reveal that through the first five weeks of the season, there have been nearly four times as many illegal contact penalties as there were through the first five weeks of 2013. And there have been more than twice as many defensive holding penalties. Illegal contact has increased from 15 calls in Weeks 1-5 last year to 59 calls this year. Defensive holding has increased from 52 in Weeks 1-5 last year to 115 this year.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/10/11/illegal-contact-quadruples-defensive-holding-doubles-from-2013/

Here's a (slightly) more recent one, from October 18th, and reflecting data through week six.

5]In apples-to-apples comparisons of NFL data for 2014 vs. 2013, through Week 6, it measures as such:

• Defensive holding: 138 vs. 63.
• Illegal contact: 63 vs. 16.
• Illegal use of hands: 93 vs. 36.
• Total penalties per game: 16.9 vs. 14.6.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/columnist/bell/2014/10/18/bell-tolls-nfl-officials-ruining-games-with-absurd-penalties/17504559/

One thing that stands out is that there were only 15 illegal contact penalties through five weeks last year. That's over 70 games.

[DougDew]

.

Nobody has more penalties than the Pats this year, but ask some people around here and Kraft has all the refs in his back pocket!

 

Then I'm sure he or pats fans must be whining to the refs about being the most penalized team, because the Pats should have had 5 more plus an ejection during the Colts game and the Colts should have had 2 fewer.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Football isn't basketball though. There has always been some grabbing and holding throughout its history. The fact that they want guys to cover with no contact has never been part of the sport.

 

No it has not.  Some 40 years ago, the NFL saw a big problem happening with double and triple team Muggings.  Isaac Curtis getting totally rubbed (held and mugged) out of the playoff game vs. the Dolphins got Paul Brown (not Bill Polian as many New England fans would like you to believe) to get the ball rolling on limiting the contact defense could have.

 

"In 1974, the “Isaac Curtis Rule” was adopted. Wide receivers could be chucked only once by any defender after they had gotten 3 yards downfield. The rule helped, but it was imperfect in a decade dominated by defenses like Pittsburgh’s Steel Curtain.

 

However, the rule spawned two revisions. In 1977, if a defender jammed a receiver inside the 3-yard zone, he could not contact him again.

 

Then in 1978, as part of a package of rules changes designed to increase offense after scoring dipped to a combined 34.4 points per game in 1977 — the lowest since 1942 — contact with a wide receiver would be permitted only within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. Any other downfield contact was severely restricted.

 

This was known as the “Mel Blount Rule” an homage to the Steelers’ Hall of Fame cornerback who was adept at using his speed and strength to knock receivers off their routes or ride them out of bounds."

 

These rule alterations are older than many posters on this message board.  However, there is a history of refs over the years letting D's get away with more and more contact downfield.  Bill Polian reminded the league in 2004 into a point of emphasis, and the league revisited the rule as emphasis again after the physical mauling from the legion of Boom.  As Superman says, they want defense to be a skill, not a display of physicality. But even this year, the calls have dwindled as the season progressed.  The numbers are higher, but only because of the early weeks where calls were more numerous.

[ColtsBlueFL]

NFL 2014 Defensive Backfield penalty Tracker Through Dec. 2

Illegal Contact

2009 - 92
2010 - 75
2011 - 70
2012 - 68
2013 - 38

2014 - 87


D Holding

2009 - 109
2010 - 115
2011 - 129
2012 - 153
2013 - 181

2014 - 172


Pass Interference D

2009 - 190
2010 - 207
2011 - 210
2012 - 253
2013 - 247

2014 - 159


Pass Interference O

2009 - 78
2010 - 73
2011 - 69
2012 - 79
2013 - 66

2014 - 74

[CR91]

You sound like a talking head who just regurgitates nonsense

 

how is it nonsense? you enjoy all the extra flags?

[-JJ-]

Besides the tic tac calls what bothers me is after watching a play gee is there a flag. It slows the pace for a fan.

 

Also if you hold on every play there is no way the official will throw a flag on every play. Hence why you see some get by.

No doubt BB has studied that also lol.

[Superman]

Also if you hold on every play there is no way the official will throw a flag on every play. Hence why you see some get by.

No doubt BB has studied that also lol.

Isn't that poor officiating?

[-JJ-]

Isn't that poor officiating?

Yes and no because they can't possibly throw a flag every other play. They know they can't turn the game into flags while drawing out the game to complete boredom. 

[amfootball]

Yes. It is ruining football. There is way too much inconsistency because of it. You will see some games like the NE/Denver where the refs let the DBs grab and quick hold all game and then the NE/GB where that same amount of contact was called more often. That is what is driving everyone bananas. There is always some measure of physical play in football and I think most fans and officials can tell when a DB is interfering with the receiver's ability to make a catch or to get open on a route. This new emphasis takes all that subjectivity away and makes the ref have to throw a flag as soon as he sees a hand on someone. I have also noticed that the offensive players are intentionally initiating contact knowing that once the defensive player puts his hands on him he will get the penalty. I am all for the game being called according to the rules but every penalty is subjective in the NFL outside of pre-snap fouls so to take away that subjectivity is just silly.

[GoPats]

Then I'm sure he or pats fans must be whining to the refs about being the most penalized team, because the Pats should have had 5 more plus an ejection during the Colts game and the Colts should have had 2 fewer.

 

Getta outta here with that junk DD... we don't complain. That's the specialty of Indy fans. We wouldn't try to steal your schtick.  ;)

 

Interestingly enough, the last couple of SB winners have been among the league's most penalized teams during their championship seasons. Some penalties have no benefit at all (say, a false start) but others can work to intimidate an opponent or set a physical tone. Browner is a good example... he gets flagged fairly often but most of the time he's smart about it. There's a fine line and the best teams seem to toe it pretty well. 

[amfootball]

Yes and no because they can't possibly throw a flag every other play. They know they can't turn the game into flags while drawing out the game to complete boredom. 

Right. There is the spirit or intent of the rule at play here. If they decided to call offensive holding by the letter of the law then there would have to be a flag on just about every play. Yet for some reason they want to do it with DH and PI and it is killing the game. They really need to revisit the automatic first down as well. If you are going to call it this way then I think you just award the 5 yards and stop with the automatic first downs.

[BOTT]

Yes and no because they can't possibly throw a flag every other play. They know they can't turn the game into flags while drawing out the game to complete boredom.

all they have to do is call it early and often and the players would adjust. But I agree it works....the tactic has been utilized quite well in basketball too.

[Superman]

Getta outta here with that junk DD... we don't complain. That's the specialty of Indy fans. We wouldn't try to steal your schtick. ;)

Interestingly enough, the last couple of SB winners have been among the league's most penalized teams during their championship seasons. Some penalties have no benefit at all (say, a false start) but others can work to intimidate an opponent or set a physical tone. Browner is a good example... he gets flagged fairly often but most of the time he's smart about it. There's a fine line and the best teams seem to toe it pretty well.

You must have some of your fellow Pats fans on ignore...

[Bobbycovert]

No it has not.  Some 40 years ago, the NFL saw a big problem happening with double and triple team Muggings.  Isaac Curtis getting totally rubbed (held and mugged) out of the playoff game vs. the Dolphins got Paul Brown (not Bill Polian as many New England fans would like you to believe) to get the ball rolling on limiting the contact defense could have.

 

"In 1974, the “Isaac Curtis Rule” was adopted. Wide receivers could be chucked only once by any defender after they had gotten 3 yards downfield. The rule helped, but it was imperfect in a decade dominated by defenses like Pittsburgh’s Steel Curtain.

 

However, the rule spawned two revisions. In 1977, if a defender jammed a receiver inside the 3-yard zone, he could not contact him again.

 

Then in 1978, as part of a package of rules changes designed to increase offense after scoring dipped to a combined 34.4 points per game in 1977 — the lowest since 1942 — contact with a wide receiver would be permitted only within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. Any other downfield contact was severely restricted.

 

This was known as the “Mel Blount Rule” an homage to the Steelers’ Hall of Fame cornerback who was adept at using his speed and strength to knock receivers off their routes or ride them out of bounds."

 

These rule alterations are older than many posters on this message board.  However, there is a history of refs over the years letting D's get away with more and more contact downfield.  Bill Polian reminded the league in 2004 into a point of emphasis, and the league revisited the rule as emphasis again after the physical mauling from the legion of Boom.  As Superman says, they want defense to be a skill, not a display of physicality. But even this year, the calls have dwindled as the season progressed.  The numbers are higher, but only because of the early weeks where calls were more numerous.

 

Great post.  I didn't know the full background of the rule.  Thanks!

[GoPats]

You must have some of your fellow Pats fans on ignore...

 

You didn't catch the smiley face? 

 

There are a couple here now... let's just say I sort of doubt the validity of their rooting interests. 

[Superman]

You didn't catch the smiley face?

There are a couple here now... let's just say I sort of doubt the validity of their rooting interests.

I did catch the smiley face. Still...

I'm not sure what the second part means, but okay.

[JerodMayo51]

Then I'm sure he or pats fans must be whining to the refs about being the most penalized team, because the Pats should have had 5 more plus an ejection during the Colts game and the Colts should have had 2 fewer.

The only ejection in that game was Sergio being ejected out da club

[JerodMayo51]

Right. There is the spirit or intent of the rule at play here. If they decided to call offensive holding by the letter of the law then there would have to be a flag on just about every play. Yet for some reason they want to do it with DH and PI and it is killing the game. They really need to revisit the automatic first down as well. If you are going to call it this way then I think you just award the 5 yards and stop with the automatic first downs.

Yea the automatic first down thing is a bit much. . If you have a team on a 4th and 20, and some one gets called for DH, they automatically get the 20 yards?

It's too much. Give them the 5 yards and replay the down.. they still get a free play out of it and can decline the penalty. .

It should work the same way offsides works

[TAPLOOK]

Yea the automatic first down thing is a bit much. . If you have a team on a 4th and 20, and some one gets called for DH, they automatically get the 20 yards?

It's too much. Give them the 5 yards and replay the down.. they still get a free play out of it and can decline the penalty. .

It should work the same way offsides works

 

 

It's crazy. The most common penalty shouldn't be a game changer every week. As another poster said "it's a shame that the first thing fans and players do after every pass is swivel their head around looking for a flag before exhaling".

[ColtsBlueFL]

Great post.  I didn't know the full background of the rule.  Thanks!

 

Sure.  Here's a different and more detailed of the account to the beginning of the illegal downfield contact rules being implemented some 40 years ago-

 

"Isaac Curtis was drafted in the first round in the 1973 NFL Draft with the 15th overall pick by the Cincinnati Bengals. Head coach Paul Brown said he drafted Curtis because he wanted a speedy receiver to help out quarterback Ken Anderson. He made the starting lineup as a rookie and had a great first season as an NFL receiver; Curtis finished the regular season with 45 receptions for 843 yards and 9 touchdowns. His play was good enough to warrant a Pro Bowl invitation. He was also named All-Pro. But perhaps the main reason his rookie season was memorable was how opponents responded to his play; in a game against Don Shula’s Dolphins, Shula ordered his defensive backs to bump and hold Curtis frequently while he was running to prevent him from outrunning them. After more defenses began the practice, Paul Brown was outraged and told the NFL Competition Committee that something had to be done. As a result, the Isaac Curtis Rule became in effect."

 

Bill Polian wasn't even n the NFL then, not until he became a scout for the Kansas City Chiefs in 1978, which is the year the second revision to the rule was instituted.  Paul Brown and Isaac Curtis was the original impetus of the defensive holding / illegal contact rules.  When teams take advantage to an excessive degree, a gm (bill Polian at the end of the 2003 season) or the league itself can institute a 'point of emphasis on the rule.  People (Most often NE fans) claim they're new rules or were concocted by Polian for 2004.  But the truth is out there.  We can stuff these away for future use.  ;)