Is there any viability in trading for a vet Guard?

[ColtsHappy]

I won't be surprised if we bring in a couple of O-Lineman, once the cuts to 53 are complete. Hopefully a few quick learners will fall out of the sky who still have some tread on their tires....

 

BassHappy

[OLD FAN MAN]

I won't be surprised if we bring in a couple of O-Lineman, once the cuts to 53 are complete. Hopefully a few quick learners will fall out of the sky who still have some tread on their tires....

 

BassHappy

hope we do , the 0-line as it is scares me

[BOTT]

hope we do , the 0-line as it is scares me

These young guys aren't any worse than what the Colts have had on the interior the last two yrs. In fact, they are probably better

[OLD FAN MAN]

These young guys aren't any worse than what the Colts have had on the interior the last two yrs. In fact, they are probably better

hope so, for lucks sake

[csmopar]

I know. Let's trade our 1st, 2nd next years 1st and a 4th for Alex Mack and move him to guard...........insert sarcasm here.

Seriously, some of you all are throwing in the towel way to early. Would I be against trading for a starting guard, no but I also don't think we can get any worse than we were last year either.

[OLD FAN MAN]

I know. Let's trade our 1st, 2nd next years 1st and a 4th for Alex Mack and move him to guard...........insert sarcasm here.

Seriously, some of you all are throwing in the towel way to early. Would I be against trading for a starting guard, no but I also don't think we can get any worse than we were last year either.

last year luck took far too many hits,just not any worse is not good enough. imo we need some nfl  ready vets in front of him. most draft picks are projects luck cant afford to wait for to develop. he needs protection now

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

These young guys aren't any worse than what the Colts have had on the interior the last two yrs. In fact, they are probably better

Tis exactly what scares us. Also Holmes could be worse than satele. We don't want to keep letting luck get hit like this.

[SteelCityColt]

Good God, here he goes again...

 

Do you ever wonder why myself and quite a few others take exception to the vast majority of your posts? Why act like you have any clue what you are talking about when it is clear that you don't?

 

You have said quite a few times in the past that you know little or nothing about Offensive Line play... but recently, you have started spouting your opinion in regards to the O-Line like it is gospel... could you explain that?

 

Also, you talk about your love of Grigson's aggressive approach, yet when a very Grigson-like scenario is mentioned, you attempt to shoot it down... did you do the same when Richardson was traded for? You say you are happy some of the forum members don't make the Front Office decisions, yet the very concepts put across in this topic are inline with the mentally currently exhibited by our Front Office. Care to explain this as well?

 

Let me give you a little bit of education.... Rookie linemen rarely perform well... you draft rookie linemen as long-term solutions, bringing in some starter-quality competition helps us. We are in a win-now situation... to put all your faith in three very inexperienced interior linemen is a dangerous game to play.

 

Now I know you will not acknowledge this, because any time anyone clearly calls out your ignorance, you ignore them and continue to spout your uneducated opinions. Perhaps on this occasion you can hold yourself accountable for your comments...

 

Excellent response, but I wouldn't hold your breath, I hate it when people drop one liners of scorn then refuse to engage in debate to back up their position. I suspect that you may well be on the often cited ignore list of his, as is anyone else who dares question his views are. 

 

Back to your OP, which by the way I thought was nicely written to try and start a discussion on this, I agree that the interior Oline needs improving still but the issue as you said is finding someone who's good enough to start at a trade value that is palatable especially after the TRich debate. I don't know enough about line play to think of any sleepers that would be good targets. Hey you never know the rookies might work out, but as you say this is very much not the norm for rookie linemen. 

 

I guess when the cuts down to 53 are made we might be able to see what's shaken loose but I can't see anyone of a decent standard being available even then. 

[AntonMcG]

Excellent response, but I wouldn't hold your breath, I hate it when people drop one liners of scorn then refuse to engage in debate to back up their position. I suspect that you may well be on the often cited ignore list of his, as is anyone else who dares question his views are. 

 

Back to your OP, which by the way I thought was nicely written to try and start a discussion on this, I agree that the interior Oline needs improving still but the issue as you said is finding someone who's good enough to start at a trade value that is palatable especially after the TRich debate. I don't know enough about line play to think of any sleepers that would be good targets. Hey you never know the rookies might work out, but as you say this is very much not the norm for rookie linemen. 

 

I guess when the cuts down to 53 are made we might be able to see what's shaken loose but I can't see anyone of a decent standard being available even then. 

 

Ha, yeah... it is a pet peeve of my when people make definitive comments but refuse to elaborate when challenged... but it simply exposes their limitations any onlookers.

 

In regards to the issue of finding someone... I agree completely... that is the crux of the issue, and may prove fruitless. However, I have no doubt that the scenario is currently under evaluation.

 

Many have made the case that the line cannot be any worse than last year, but shouldn't the Colts be holding themselves to a higher standard than that? We are realistic Super Bowl contenders, we cannot take the risk of throwing in three inexperienced players into our interior line without much quality and experienced depth behind them.

[HtownColt]

if luck goes down behind these rookies at least we have a backup qb who has experience

It's only one rookie and he was drafted in the 2nd round so they expected him to make an impact early, Holmes and Thornton gained experience last year whether it was getting thrown in the fire or sitting in film study breaking down tape of opposing defenses with the coaches every week and getting 12 live snaps.

You don't draft OL in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th round and try and make them sit on the bench for 3-4 years. You drafted them that early for them to play. Now let them go out and play and stop trying to go out and sign mediocre stop gap players and put them in front of them hampering their development.

It's time for them to play and I for one think all of them are up to the task.

[esmort]

It's only one rookie and he was drafted in the 2nd round so they expected him to make an impact early, Holmes and Thornton gained experience last year whether it was getting thrown in the fire or sitting in film study breaking down tape of opposing defenses with the coaches every week and getting 12 live snaps.

You don't draft OL in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th round and try and make them sit on the bench for 3-4 years. You drafted them that early for them to play. Now let them go out and play and stop trying to go out and sign mediocre stop gap players and put them in front of them hampering their development.

It's time for them to play and I for one think all of them are up to the task.

 

I could see your point if it was starting one rookie with vets who had experience on both sides, but a rookie, Holmes might as well be a rookie, and a very raw second year player making up the whole interior of the line is not an ideal situation. And nobody said 3-4 years, but at least 1 year to give them time to acclimate and get some reps in garbage time makes sense to me ... these aren't 1st round picks; you make it sound like the typical 3rd & 4th round OL is ready to go day one ... there's usually a reason they didn't go 1st/2nd round.

[OLD FAN MAN]

It's only one rookie and he was drafted in the 2nd round so they expected him to make an impact early, Holmes and Thornton gained experience last year whether it was getting thrown in the fire or sitting in film study breaking down tape of opposing defenses with the coaches every week and getting 12 live snaps.

You don't draft OL in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th round and try and make them sit on the bench for 3-4 years. You drafted them that early for them to play. Now let them go out and play and stop trying to go out and sign mediocre stop gap players and put them in front of them hampering their development.

It's time for them to play and I for one think all of them are up to the task.

I see  what you are saying, we have signed some stop gapers who didn't work out. but the op was talking about good proven vets who could protect luck. I think it is scary to put unproven players in front of luck. imo draft picks on the o-line are projects no matter what round they are drafted in. the other 2 have a little experience but haven't stood out. if we go with these guys I hope they surprise me and you are right. we must protect luck at all costs no matter if a high pick or free agent does it. it just scares me to have players with no track record protecting luck

[HtownColt]

I could see your point if it was starting one rookie with vets who had experience on both sides, but a rookie, Holmes might as well be a rookie, and a very raw second year player making up the whole interior of the line is not an ideal situation. And nobody said 3-4 years, but at least 1 year to give them time to acclimate and get some reps in garbage time makes sense to me ... these aren't 1st round picks; you make it sound like the typical 3rd & 4th round OL is ready to go day one ... there's usually a reason they didn't go 1st/2nd round.

3rd and 4th round OG and C usually do play early on in their career, OT are a different story.

And you say one year to acclimate, that's exactly what Holmes and Thornton had now let them play, Mewhort is a 2nd round OG he was drafted with intentions to get action early

[AntonMcG]

3rd and 4th round OG and C usually do play early on in their career, OT are a different story.

And you say one year to acclimate, that's exactly what Holmes and Thornton had now let them play, Mewhort is a 2nd round OG he was drafted with intentions to get action early

 

I would be fine if these guys won their spots... but right now, it seems like they are there by default. Lance Louis is okay... but beyond that it seems like there is little to no competition for these spots. Even proven experience behind these guys would be hugely beneficial. But personally... I would like to see at least one proven vet start on the interior. 

 

That is not to say these guys fail though, but they might, and they might get injured. It's a big gamble to me.

[HtownColt]

I see what you are saying, we have signed some stop gapers who didn't work out. but the op was talking about good proven vets who could protect luck. I think it is scary to put unproven players in front of luck. imo draft picks on the o-line are projects no matter what round they are drafted in. the other 2 have a little experience but haven't stood out. if we go with these guys I hope they surprise me and you are right. we must protect luck at all costs no matter if a high pick or free agent does it. it just scares me to have players with no track record protecting luck

You want experienced players but don't want to throw your draft picks out there to gain experience. So every year will be the same thing regarding our OL draft picks if we keep finding stop gap players and keep playing them in front of our draft picks.

It's time to let them play and gain the "experience" you keep saying instead of trying to keep them on the bench

[akcolt]

Grigs knew Thomas was not going to be there go back and listen to what he said and read his quotes. I made numerous comments on how he sounds different when talking about Thomas than he does about any other player coming off injury,

 

I am not saying it is good but I don't think Grigs was caught off guard or was counting on Thomas as a week one starter. Either he has his eye on something or his plan is to roll with his picks.

 

The situation is really not that different Holmes and Thorton were projected as starters coming into camp.

 

The guy Grigs likes in my opinion is Lance Louis. With Mewhort being a three position back up. Does that make anyone feel better? 41 games 28 starts.

 

I am all for signing someone or waiting until cuts but I don't think Grigs was caught off guard by this

[chad72]

I do like the suggestion about signing a vet like Harvey Dahl.

 

Another surprise cut and quality OL who is still out there is center Kyle Cook, cut by the Bengals. Right now, word is they are planning to use this forum draft favorite Russell Bodine of UNC (rookie) as their new center backed up by our former C/OG Mike Pollak.

 

Signing either of these will provide us valuable depth and they could play on a short notice without a problem.

[HtownColt]

I would be fine if these guys won their spots... but right now, it seems like they are there by default. Lance Louis is okay... but beyond that it seems like there is little to no competition for these spots. Even proven experience behind these guys would be hugely beneficial. But personally... I would like to see at least one proven vet start on the interior.

That is not to say these guys fail though, but they might, and they might get injured. It's a big gamble to me.

Give me the hungry youngsters looking to make a name for themselves that actually knows Pep's complex play book and knows all the line checks and calls. Only line that doesn't fully know the play book is Mewhort. I wouldn't want a mediocre vet start over a player we drafted that the staff has high hopes for just for the sake he is a vet(same goes for Mike Adams/Howell at Safety)

Are you saying bring in a vet to put in front of Mewhort? That's not going to happen, Mewhort has shown early on in camp that he is ready to play. I don't think a vet will beat him out anyway.

The starters are pretty much set in stone it's the backups they need to sort through.

[OLD FAN MAN]

You want experienced players but don't want to throw your draft picks out there to gain experience. So every year will be the same thing regarding our OL draft picks if we keep finding stop gap players and keep playing them in front of our draft picks.

It's time to let them play and gain the "experience" you keep saying instead of trying to keep them on the bench

that is why I don't like draft picks for the o-line. let other teams draft them, give them experience then if they prove themselves try to get them away from them. since we already have some rookies let them play when the game is in hand. by the way I really like anyone who is from Houston that is a colts fan even though we may not see the same way on some things, we both want the colts to win

[esmort]

3rd and 4th round OG and C usually do play early on in their career, OT are a different story.

And you say one year to acclimate, that's exactly what Holmes and Thornton had now let them play, Mewhort is a 2nd round OG he was drafted with intentions to get action early

 

A 3rd or 4th that starts early often has vets that can pick up some slack on each side, or like AntonM pointed at least had some legitimate competition to get the spot.

 

Holmes didn't get any reps/actual game experience to speak of ... sitting on the sideline and film room is not the same thing.  Just look at Chapman (I know a different position ... but still) last season he was not officially a rookie, but looked a lot like one.

 

If we had a quality Vet C, and DThomas had been healthy I would have had no problem with DT, Thornton, and Mewhort competing for the guard positions ... but that is far from what we have. 

 

I know we need to get them some reps, but it just doesn't make sense to me to just throw them in as the interior line of a legitimate SB contender with no real competition and no real answer backing them up if they fail.

[HtownColt]

that is why I don't like draft picks for the o-line. let other teams draft them, give them experience then if they prove themselves try to get them away from them. since we already have some rookies let them play when the game is in hand. by the way I really like anyone who is from Houston that is a colts fan even though we may not see the same way on some things, we both want the colts to win

If other teams can do it why can't we do it? Plus it would cost you to get them proven star OL in free agency than it would to draft them and play them

[AntonMcG]

Give me the hungry youngsters looking to make a name for themselves that actually knows Pep's complex play book and knows all the line checks and calls. Only line that doesn't fully know the play book is Mewhort. I wouldn't want a mediocre vet start over a player we drafted that the staff has high hopes for just for the sake he is a vet(same goes for Mike Adams/Howell at Safety)

Are you saying bring in a vet to put in front of Mewhort? That's not going to happen, Mewhort has shown early on in camp that he is ready to play. I don't think a vet will beat him out anyway.

The starters are pretty much set in stone it's the backups they need to sort through.

 

 

Why is the vet automatically mediocre? And considering we have been considerably below mediocre within our interior, I'd say that would be an upgrade. 

 

I don't know if the vet would beat out Mewhort, none of us do... but Donald Thomas was ahead of him... so I don't know how he is set in stone after three days.

 

Are young players hungrier than vets who may need one more big contract to secure their long term financial future? That is a baseless generalization. Rookie linemen struggle... that is a measurable fact. We need more quality competition within our interior.

[HtownColt]

A 3rd or 4th that starts early often has vets that can pick up some slack on each side, or like AntonM pointed at least had some legitimate competition to get the spot.

Holmes didn't get any reps/actual game experience to speak of ... sitting on the sideline and film room is not the same thing. Just look at Chapman (I know a different position ... but still) last season he was not officially a rookie, but looked a lot like one.

If we had a quality Vet C, and DThomas had been healthy I would have had no problem with DT, Thornton, and Mewhort competing for the guard positions ... but that is far from what we have.

I know we need to get them some reps, but it just doesn't make sense to me to just throw them in as the interior line of a legitimate SB contender with no real competition and no real answer backing them up if they fail.

That's why Castonzo and Cherilus starts next to them.

How many teams have a quality vet backup Center?

[HtownColt]

Why is the vet automatically mediocre? And considering we have been considerably below mediocre within our interior, I'd say that would be an upgrade.

I don't know if the vet would beat out Mewhort, none of us do... but Donald Thomas was ahead of him... so I don't know how he is set in stone after three days.

Are young players hungrier than vets who may need one more big contract to secure their long term financial future? That is a baseless generalization. Rookie linemen struggle... that is a measurable fact. We need more quality competition within our interior.

Thomas and Mewhort was splitting 1st team reps since camp started, Thomas getting hurt gives it to him. I say mediocre because any vet you get around this time of training camp is mediocre to bad.

Rookie lineman struggle....Kyle Long and Jordan Mills did fairly well together as rookies last year. And we only have one rookie, the rest been in the play book and film study going on 2 years now

[esmort]

That's why Castonzo and Cherilus starts next to them.

How many teams have a quality vet backup Center?

 

I think you misunderstood the "Vet C" in that post ... In that scenario I was saying if we had a quality veteran Center (not a back up) and NOT Holmes "than I would be comfortable with DT, Thornton, and Mewhort competing for the guard spots"

 

While I like Castonzo and think he is a solid LT, I do not think he is so dominant he can anchor the left and cover Mewhort's mistakes without the help of a good C picking up some of the slack as well. Same applies to the right side, and Holmes has no Vet experience on either side of him to help if he gets in trouble.

[HtownColt]

I think you misunderstood the "Vet C" in that post ... In that scenario I was saying if we had a quality veteran Center (not a back up) and NOT Holmes "than I would be comfortable with DT, Thornton, and Mewhort competing for the guard spots"

While I like Castonzo and think he is a solid LT, I do not think he is so dominant he can anchor the left and cover Mewhort's mistakes without the help of a good C picking up some of the slack as well. Same applies to the right side, and Holmes has no Vet experience on either side of him to help if he gets in trouble.

Thornton started 17 games how does he not have experience?

[OLD FAN MAN]

Thomas and Mewhort was splitting 1st team reps since camp started, Thomas getting hurt gives it to him. I say mediocre because any vet you get around this time of training camp is mediocre to bad.

Rookie lineman struggle....Kyle Long and Jordan Mills did fairly well together as rookies last year. And we only have one rookie, the rest been in the play book and film study going on 2 years now

if you were the qb, who would you rather have protect you from watts and clowney, proven vets or players with no track record?

[esmort]

Thornton started 17 games how does he not have experience?

 

He was underwhelming, he will be doing good to hold down his position; asking him to help cover any mistakes by Holmes is a bit more than I would be comfortable asking him to do.

 

If we were the Raiders, Jags, etc ... with no legitimate shot at the Super Bowl, and disposable QBs I would be right there with you.  Trial by fire .... let them learn, make mistakes, and get experience ... but we are in a completely different situation; we are ready to make a run now, and we have a much more valuable commodity (who has already taken enough hits) at risk behind the line than those teams.

[AntonMcG]

Thomas and Mewhort was splitting 1st team reps since camp started, Thomas getting hurt gives it to him. I say mediocre because any vet you get around this time of training camp is mediocre to bad.

Rookie lineman struggle....Kyle Long and Jordan Mills did fairly well together as rookies last year. And we only have one rookie, the rest been in the play book and film study going on 2 years now

 

Yes FA signings at this time of year would be mediocre at best... trades would not necessarily. 

 

When Thomas was full out he was first team G. 

 

Answer me this, do you believe Mewhort was expected to start as a Rookie? Because all indicators pointed to him not starting. Same as Thornton (who was also thrown in due to injury) and Holmes.

 

Grigson stated that it is difficult to start as a rookie lineman, due to the complexities of assignments and the speed of the game. 

 

Pagano expressed his concerns about the interior line after Thomas went down. It is not just us fans that have these concerns.

 

Maybe nothing materializes, but I would be shocked if this was not being looked into right now. I sincerely hope these kids do well, but I am not willing to bet a Super Bowl on it. That said, you present a legitimate argument as to why we should stick with what we have... I just don't agree.

[HtownColt]

if you were the qb, who would you rather have protect you from watts and clowney, proven vets or players with no track record?

5 players who are all on the same page and blocks like a cohesive unit

[HtownColt]

He was underwhelming, he will be doing good to hold down his position; asking him to help cover any mistakes by Holmes is a bit more than I would be comfortable asking him to do.

If we were the Raiders, Jags, etc ... with no legitimate shot at the Super Bowl, and disposable QBs I would be right there with you. Trial by fire .... let them learn, make mistakes, and get experience ... but we are in a completely different situation; we are ready to make a run now, and we have a much more valuable commodity (who has already taken enough hits) at risk behind the line than those teams.

Who's to say they can't get the job done. You act like they suck

[HtownColt]

Yes FA signings at this time of year would be mediocre at best... trades would not necessarily.

When Thomas was full out he was first team G.

Answer me this, do you believe Mewhort was expected to start as a Rookie? Because all indicators pointed to him not starting. Same as Thornton (who was also thrown in due to injury) and Holmes.

Grigson stated that it is difficult to start as a rookie lineman, due to the complexities of assignments and the speed of the game.

Pagano expressed his concerns about the interior line after Thomas went down. It is not just us fans that have these concerns.

Maybe nothing materializes, but I would be shocked if this was not being looked into right now. I sincerely hope these kids do well, but I am not willing to bet a Super Bowl on it. That said, you present a legitimate argument as to why we should stick with what we have... I just don't agree.

Yes I honestly thought Mewhort would start when we drafted him because I was one who thought Donald Thomas would be on PUP and miss the first 6 weeks of the season. So the line we have now is exactly the line I thought we would have after day 2 of the draft.

[OLD FAN MAN]

5 players who are all on the same page and blocks like a cohesive unit

didn't answer the question. proven vets or no track record guys, who would you want in front of you

[HtownColt]

didn't answer the question. proven vets or no track record guys, who would you want in front of you

Two proven vets and a 2nd 3rd and 4th round draft picks that my front office drafted with the vision to protect and grow as a team with me and forms a cohesive unit. And not proven stop gap vets that come and go like a revolving door

[esmort]

Who's to say they can't get the job done. You act like they suck

 

 I am not saying they can't, or that they will suck, and I hope they do great and don't suck ... but it's not an unrealistic possibility that they might suck. What I am saying is that given the Colts situation (SB contender & top young QB who has already taken many hits) I would not take such a gamble at such important positions, at the very least I would "hedge my bet".

[HtownColt]

I am not saying they can't, or that they will suck, and I hope they do great and don't suck ... but it's not an unrealistic possibility that they might suck. What I am saying is that given the Colts situation (SB contender & top young QB who has already taken many hits) I would not take such a gamble at such important positions, at the very least I would "hedge my bet".

Front office has a vision for the players they drafted, time to let that vision come to light instead of hiding behind stop gap players

[AntonMcG]

Front office has a vision for the players they drafted, time to let that vision come to light instead of hiding behind stop gap players

 

This is the same FO and coaching staff who expressed their reservations about our young interior line....

 

And why is it you keep coming back to the concept of 'stop gap' players... I am talking about trading for quality, experienced Guards. Quality competition and depth is crucial along the line... we have lost a quality Guard, and he needs to be replaced, and let him battle it out with Thornton and Mewhort for the starting spot. We are in a worse position now than we were last week when Thomas was healthy.

[Gavin]

Yes FA signings at this time of year would be mediocre at best... trades would not necessarily. 

 

When Thomas was full out he was first team G. 

 

Answer me this, do you believe Mewhort was expected to start as a Rookie? Because all indicators pointed to him not starting. Same as Thornton (who was also thrown in due to injury) and Holmes.

 

Grigson stated that it is difficult to start as a rookie lineman, due to the complexities of assignments and the speed of the game. 

 

Pagano expressed his concerns about the interior line after Thomas went down. It is not just us fans that have these concerns.

 

Maybe nothing materializes, but I would be shocked if this was not being looked into right now. I sincerely hope these kids do well, but I am not willing to bet a Super Bowl on it. That said, you present a legitimate argument as to why we should stick with what we have... I just don't agree.

The counter argument here(To the winning a SB now argument) is most of our players are young and have time to grow with each other as a team with few exceptions (Wayne, Redding immediately come to mind) but some of the moves  done in the last couple seasons by Grigson indicated a win now stance , Fast forward to this year and we have youth at about every position...again except Wayne and Redding and Mathis and D'qwell Jackson...Even Donald Thomas is only 28 with only 23 starts under his belt, I mean does Grigson think a rookie Center and a Safety who only has 3 starts under his belt is a way to get a quick SB win? I see that as a year away at least, I still think in Grigsons mind we have always been in a win now stance but there have been some moves to indicate otherwise

[OLD FAN MAN]

Two proven vets and a 2nd 3rd and 4th round draft picks that my front office drafted with the vision to protect and grow as a team with me and forms a cohesive unit. And not proven stop gap vets that come and go like a revolving door

hope your not sacked  and wind up on injured reserve, the season will be lost because we put 3 unproven players to protect you

[HtownColt]

This is the same FO and coaching staff who expressed their reservations about our young interior line....

And why is it you keep coming back to the concept of 'stop gap' players... I am talking about trading for quality, experienced Guards. Quality competition and depth is crucial along the line... we have lost a quality Guard, and he needs to be replaced, and let him battle it out with Thornton and Mewhort for the starting spot. We are in a worse position now than we were last week when Thomas was healthy.

Who are you trying to trade for then that won't be stop gap players?

You're talking about trading top draft picks?