Incognito / Martin: Wells report released

[John Dee]

Incognito will be blackballed.  He will be a fall guy.

 

Martin and "others" endured abuse FAR EXCEEDING NFL hazing... 

 

A TRAINER WAS ABUSED?   consistently..  Seriously.?   and not by just INCOGDUMAZ but 2 others.    And it was tolerated?

 

Where are the LEADERS on this so called team?   Where are the coaches?

 

This is a Dolphin problem more than it is a RI problem.   The Culture in that locker room is TOXIC.  

 

JMO

I hope you are right, but I do not believe that this kind of locker room environment is just confined to the Dolphins lockerroom.  I bet more players and coaches view Martin in a negative light even though he is the victim in this.  

 

If I had to guess the scenario it would be 1) Incognito gets a job first 2) Neither get a job 3) Martin gets a job and Incognito.

 

Then again I have a pessimistic view of the culture in most of these lockerrooms.

[Danfish98]

Haven't read the report yet, but I do question how Martin gets no blame at all.  I'm certain that the language and jokes in every NFL locker room would not be accepted in virtually any other workplace environment, but it's currently part of the culture of the NFL and it's what happens when a bunch of macho young men get together.  I'm not saying that's ok, but it is a fact of the current NFL.  It's certainly possible that Incognito was aware Martin had issues with how he was being treated and if so that's horrible, but it's possible he had no idea.  Incognito deserves everything coming to him, cause he's done plenty of other stuff over the years that makes his awful reputation deserved, but it does bother me that something can be considered harassment when it's not meant to be taken that way and the person harassing has no idea the person being harassed feels that way.  Like I said, I haven't read the report, so there may be lots of evidence there that Incognito knew Martin felt he was being harassed and continued anyway.  If there isn't though it seems like there should be some consideration that Martin should have tried to let Incognito know that Incognito's behavior was offensive.

 

Edit:  Just reading a small portion of the report shows that Incognito knew what he was doing and that changes everything.  Like I said before, his behavior and reputation made him not signable in my book prior to any of this.  This makes it far worse and he better never step foot in another football locker room again.

[alawai]

Every situation is different but my personal experience I enjoyed the locker room chatter, the machoism and such!  I hated the outside public world on racism and stares that I received.  Why?  Maybe I knew my fellow teammates were there for me and we were ready to battle for each other.  Out side the locker the public was ready to do battle at me (racism).

 

Like I said every situation is different and maybe in a way my experience was positive.  I was 4,000 miles from home at a small DII NAIA and played two years of football and wrestled a year.  On the football 3 deep depth chart I was #6!  I was not good but I was on the team and my team mates had my back!   I had several close encounters at bars and other socials but luckily no violence.  It was then I found out that some of my football buddies were in the background watching my back (and ready).

 

So I encountered bullying, racism but on my personal experience my football/wrestling buddies had my back!

[John Dee]

Every situation is different but my personal experience I enjoyed the locker room chatter, the machoism and such!  I hated the outside public world on racism and stares that I received.  Why?  Maybe I knew my fellow teammates were there for me and we were ready to battle for each other.  Out side the locker the public was ready to do battle at me (racism).

 

Like I said every situation is different and maybe in a way my experience was positive.  I was 4,000 miles from home at a small DII NAIA and played two years of football and wrestled a year.  On the football 3 deep depth chart I was #6!  I was not good but I was on the team and my team mates had my back!   I had several close encounters at bars and other socials but luckily no violence.  It was then I found out that some of my football buddies were in the background watching my back (and ready).

 

So I encountered bullying, racism but on my personal experience my football/wrestling buddies had my back!

right ON...

 

Teammates have each others back, they do NOT attack their brothers.    They do not try to take advantage of them.

 

I just cannot believe this.   

[John Dee]

Haven't read the report yet, but I do question how Martin gets no blame at all.  I'm certain that the language and jokes in every NFL locker room would not be accepted in virtually any other workplace environment, but it's currently part of the culture of the NFL and it's what happens when a bunch of macho young men get together.  I'm not saying that's ok, but it is a fact of the current NFL.  It's certainly possible that Incognito was aware Martin had issues with how he was being treated and if so that's horrible, but it's possible he had no idea.  Incognito deserves everything coming to him, cause he's done plenty of other stuff over the years that makes his awful reputation deserved, but it does bother me that something can be considered harassment when it's not meant to be taken that way and the person harassing has no idea the person being harassed feels that way.  Like I said, I haven't read the report, so there may be lots of evidence there that Incognito knew Martin felt he was being harassed and continued anyway.  If there isn't though it seems like there should be some consideration that Martin should have tried to let Incognito know that Incognito's behavior was offensive.

sigh................. 

[Thewholefnshow28]

Haven't read the report yet, but I do question how Martin gets no blame at all.  I'm certain that the language and jokes in every NFL locker room would not be accepted in virtually any other workplace environment, but it's currently part of the culture of the NFL and it's what happens when a bunch of macho young men get together.  I'm not saying that's ok, but it is a fact of the current NFL.  It's certainly possible that Incognito was aware Martin had issues with how he was being treated and if so that's horrible, but it's possible he had no idea.  Incognito deserves everything coming to him, cause he's done plenty of other stuff over the years that makes his awful reputation deserved, but it does bother me that something can be considered harassment when it's not meant to be taken that way and the person harassing has no idea the person being harassed feels that way.  Like I said, I haven't read the report, so there may be lots of evidence there that Incognito knew Martin felt he was being harassed and continued anyway.  If there isn't though it seems like there should be some consideration that Martin should have tried to let Incognito know that Incognito's behavior was offensive.

 

The person saying the words does not get to dictate how another person takes those words.  Read the report and you will clearly see that Incognito knowingly went out to abuse and tear down martin.  This was not a person making an inappropriate joke in the work place and someone overhearing it and running to HR.  This is a guy with the help of two others attacked, and their position coach Martin, a fellow rookie OL, and a member of the training staff.

 

Martin was in a hostile environment where he had no place to go.  When your position coach is getting in on the fun to tear down a fellow teammate it clearly shows no institutional control.

 

Martin clearly tried to befriend Incognito in an attempt to disarm him through being friends, but it did not stop and just got worse.  

[Danfish98]

The person saying the words does not get to dictate how another person takes those words.  Read the report and you will clearly see that Incognito knowingly went out to abuse and tear down martin.  This was not a person making an inappropriate joke in the work place and someone overhearing it and running to HR.  This is a guy with the help of two others attacked, and their position coach Martin, a fellow rookie OL, and a member of the training staff.

 

Martin was in a hostile environment where he had no place to go.  When your position coach is getting in on the fun to tear down a fellow teammate it clearly shows no institutional control.

 

Martin clearly tried to befriend Incognito in an attempt to disarm him through being friends, but it did not stop and just got worse.  

Just read the first few pages of the report and it does appear that Martin tried to express that he found some comments out of line.  That definitely changes things.  I also really hope Martin is able to get the help he needs as it sounds like he has issues that go back to long before his NFL career started.  With a good counselor and a nonhostile locker room he could be a great asset to a team.

[BrentMc11]

Is he being suspended indefinitely by Goodell. If not, maybe he should be.

Based on the situation, I feel a one year supension is warranted for he and his Kangaroo court coach?  Lesser for say Pouncey. This was a personal sort of bounty IMO.

 

If it were me, I would have told him to shove his 10K for not going to Vegas somewhere the sun does not shine.  I know it is a shock that some people do not love Vegas.  

[alawai]

right ON...

 

Teammates have each others back, they do NOT attack their brothers.    They do not try to take advantage of them.

 

I just cannot believe this.   

Thanks John.  On and off the football field and wrestling mat my teammates were my brothers!  After all those years I'm still in contact with some of my mates!  How many years ago?  lol! Dirt wasn't invented till a couple years after I played!

[BrentMc11]

Thanks John.  On and off the football field and wrestling mat my teammates were my brothers!  After all those years I'm still in contact with some of my mates!  How many years ago?  lol! Dirt wasn't invented till a couple years after I played!

I remember fights in the locker room and way too much macho-ism, 100GFB.  We were a mean tough bunch.  The difference is when we went 10-0 it was all on the field and the aggression was taken out even more on the opposition.

 

That dirt stuff is pretty old, too.  I am right behind ya you know.  

[John Dee]

YES..  there is NOTHING like being a part of a TEAM.     And when someone cannot feel comfortable or safe in that environment then?

 

It is not a team.   It is hell.

 

Richie Incognito was a "LEADER" on the Dolphins...   that should tell everyone all they need to know.

Thanks John.  On and off the football field and wrestling mat my teammates were my brothers!  After all those years I'm still in contact with some of my mates!  How many years ago?  lol! Dirt wasn't invented till a couple years after I played!

[John Dee]

you don't have to "like" each other, but you need to "respect" each other.  

 

And it works.     Successful teams do this.   The Colts do this.

 

I remember fights in the locker room and way too much macho-ism, 100GFB.  We were a mean tough bunch.  The difference is when we went 10-0 it was all on the field and the aggression was taken out even more on the opposition.

 

That dirt stuff is pretty old, too.  I am right behind ya you know.  

[alawai]

YES..  there is NOTHING like being a part of a TEAM.     And when someone cannot feel comfortable or safe in that environment then?

 

It is not a team.   It is hell.

 

Richie Incognito was a "LEADER" on the Dolphins...   that should tell everyone all they need to know.

John are you with me and Brent?  Don't know your age but Brent and I are ready to bring out our leather helmets and play ball!  Gentlemen start your engine!

[BrentMc11]

you don't have to "like" each other, but you need to "respect" each other.  

 

And it works.     Successful teams do this.   The Colts do this.

I could not have said it better....sometimes it took a butt kicking for some respect back in those days.  

 

I have said that for 22 years...I could care less if anyone likes me...all about  R E S P E C T.

[alawai]

you don't have to "like" each other, but you need to "respect" each other.  

 

And it works.     Successful teams do this.   The Colts do this.

 

I could not have said it better....sometimes it took a butt kicking for some respect back in those days.  

 

I have said that for 22 years...I could care less if anyone likes me...all about  R E S P E C T.

 

I still don't like violence but sometimes a backhand salute does wonders!

[BrentMc11]

John are you with me and Brent?  Don't know your age but Brent and I are ready to bring out our leather helmets and play ball!  Gentlemen start your engine!

My head is harder than it has ever been too 100GFB.

 

 

No No...not my Patriot days...Never!!  

[alawai]

My head is harder than it has ever been too 100GFB.

 

 

No No...not my Patriot days...Never!!  

The great Deacon Jones and his head slap!  For days after the game opponents would answer the phone and no one was there.

[BrentMc11]

The great Deacon Jones and his head slap!  For days after the game opponents would answer the phone and no one was there.

He was a bad bad man!!!

[alawai]

He was a bad bad man!!!

Yes he was a bad dude on the field.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I will take that bet..  

 

I don't think RI will EVER see an NFL field again.   

 

Martin, so he did not want to fight?   He is a better "football player than Incogdingdong"   Martin will get a shot.

 

That locker room was just out of control.    Period, NO LEADERSHIP FROM THE TOP TO THE "PLAYER LEADERSHIP"   Not ANY.

 

Very sad situation.  

 

Teddy B and Darrin Woodson both said Martin would not have an issue on ANY of their teams...      Why?  "the leaders would have NEVER let it get out of hand"    

 

Period.     

 

Incongito is a below average G and just  a true blue bully.       He is done in the NFL.

 

Martin will play again.

 

To add to an already informative post, Incognito is on the wrong side of 30 and the skills he does possess are declining.  Martin still has upside, if the environment is right for him to get his self worth and confidence back and concentrate on his job.

[JoKeR]

I still don't like violence but sometimes a backhand salute does wonders!

Apparently Martin thought something else than wonders would happen, professionally. A rookie or 2nd year players professional career would only suffer by retaliating physically. In no way are people responsible for being some bullies puppet by acting out every time the bully insults or threatens, nor are they responsible to continue to just take it. He didn't even feel he could go to his coach because he participated in the harassment of " player A " another unknown rookie offensive lineman. He was stuck with almost no viable option.

20 years ago perhaps Martin wouldn't have felt fighting would hurt his career. It also seems this level of harassment and persistence wouldn't have happened back in the day either.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Just read the first few pages of the report and it does appear that Martin tried to express that he found some comments out of line.  That definitely changes things.  I also really hope Martin is able to get the help he needs as it sounds like he has issues that go back to long before his NFL career started.  With a good counselor and a nonhostile locker room he could be a great asset to a team.

 

Martin did have problems in high school.  So did many people I know.  I even remember questioning the whole scenario once or twice myself way back when. Those are tough years, especially because one hasn't had experiences to develop a strong sense of self worth that defines them, yet.  Martin did_not have problems at Stanford.  He did again once he went to the Dolphins.  It wasn't in fun razzing and team building to Martin, is was just an advanced form of High School like torture.

[alawai]

Apparently Martin thought something else than wonders would happen, professionally. A rookie or 2nd year players professional career would only suffer by retaliating physically. In no way are people responsible for being some bullies puppet by acting out every time the bully insults or threatens, nor are they responsible to continue to just take it. He didn't even feel he could go to his coach because he participated in the harassment of " player A " another unknown rookie offensive lineman. He was stuck with almost no viable option.

If you read my other post I was subjected to racism (bullying) through college and somewhat in the military.  It was my brothers on the football field and wrestling mat that had my back!  Some in the general public did not.  I had a great experience with my mates!  I have experienced racism/bullying and it's not a pleasant situation!  I'm not saying fight/violence but more to stand up to your rights and beliefs!  Of course it may be better to turn your cheek if it's 10 against 1 but there may be a time you need to stand up!

[alawai]

Apparently Martin thought something else than wonders would happen, professionally. A rookie or 2nd year players professional career would only suffer by retaliating physically. In no way are people responsible for being some bullies puppet by acting out every time the bully insults or threatens, nor are they responsible to continue to just take it. He didn't even feel he could go to his coach because he participated in the harassment of " player A " another unknown rookie offensive lineman. He was stuck with almost no viable option.

20 years ago perhaps Martin wouldn't have felt fighting would hurt his career. It also seems this level of harassment and persistence wouldn't have happened back in the day either.

I'm not against you just saying that racism/bullying is not a happy situation and violence is not an answer!  What I'm trying to say is stand up and maybe that backhand salute may and I say may gain you that respect.  That respect may not come from that backhand salute but I said that as an example.  If I can across wrong then I will try to choose my words carefully from this point on!

[ColtsBlueFL]

Apparently Martin thought something else than wonders would happen, professionally. A rookie or 2nd year players professional career would only suffer by retaliating physically. In no way are people responsible for being some bullies puppet by acting out every time the bully insults or threatens, nor are they responsible to continue to just take it. He didn't even feel he could go to his coach because he participated in the harassment of " player A " another unknown rookie offensive lineman. He was stuck with almost no viable option.

20 years ago perhaps Martin wouldn't have felt fighting would hurt his career. It also seems this level of harassment and persistence wouldn't have happened back in the day either.

 

Indeed, that is pretty much spot on.  Here is the appropriate excerpt from the report-

 

"We will never know whether a stronger reaction 

by Martin would have stopped his teammates’ behavior or exacerbated it. But Martin 

told us that he did not view a physical response as a viable option. Martin was a rookie 

when the verbal abuse began in 2012, and he was not going to begin his professional 

football career by trying to punch out Incognito, one of the leaders of the offensive line, 

who had Jerry and Pouncey backing him up. Indeed, Martin believed that trying to 

engage in a physical confrontation with these three—whom he viewed as a united 

group—would only make matters worse."

 

It was also mentioned in the report Martin, on just a couple of occasions, asked for him to stop with the derogatory remarks, but it fell on deaf ears and he rarely tried after that, just backed down and tried fit in.

[ColtsBlueFL]

If you read my other post I was subjected to racism (bullying) through college and somewhat in the military.  It was my brothers on the football field and wrestling mat that had my back!  Some in the general public did not.  I had a great experience with my mates!  I have experienced racism/bullying and it's not a pleasant situation!  I'm not saying fight/violence but more to stand up to your rights and beliefs!  Of course it may be better to turn your cheek if it's 10 against 1 but there may be a time you need to stand up!

 

but it was worse for Martin! Those very same brothers that had your back di not have Martin's, and were the perpetrators of the abuse!  Nobody had Martin's back.  Nobody had Amanda Todd's back.  She committed suicide.  Martin nearly tried twice himself.  Remember, Martin didn't tattletale (Philbin's saving grace!) but just quit the team.  The press opened the can of worms because of that action.

[Dustin]

http://deadspin.com/the-messages-from-jonathan-martin-to-his-parents-are-he-1522865373

[Balzer40]

Just read 20 some odd pages of this report and I can see that Martin must just be an all around nice kid that just wants to fit in. I sort of feel sorry for him not to be able to stand up for himself because its just not in his make up. As bad as I feel for him though, I really hope that the Colts do not entertain the idea of signing him. I really think he just needs to find a new career and put football behind him. His personality just isn't suitable for professional football. Once other players see this, they will do and say anything to get in his head and from the sound of it, it will not be that hard to accomplish. If he was part of my family, I would tell him to move on from football and find something else that will make him happy and can put him around others that will respect him for being the person that he is.

[alawai]

but it was worse for Martin! Those very same brothers that had your back di not have Martin's, and were the perpetrators of the abuse!  Nobody had Martin's back.  Nobody had Amanda Todd's back.  She committed suicide.  Martin nearly tried twice himself.  Remember, Martin didn't tattletale (Philbin's saving grace!) but just quit the team.  The press opened the can of worms because of that action.

If you read my other post I said I had a positive experience with my teammates and yes it was the opposite of Martin's incident.  Racism and/or bullying is not a pleasant experience.  I don't think suicide entered my mind but remember I had no support group - yes my teammates had my back on certain situations but I was 4,000 miles from home, 18 and a freshman in a entirely different environment! 

 

Please I'm not saying my situation was worst off nor I'm saying Martin's situation is worst.  I wouldn't think of comparing or even ranking bullying and racism!  I'm saying I experienced it and it is not a pleasant situation!  No matter how unpleasant the situation was I try not to convey that situation on others.

[Y2Jared]

If Martin is released, I would pick him up on a team friendly deal. I think he went to Miami for football and he ended up at what comes across as a crappy high school.

 

He would be a good, quality backup and I think Andrew, Wayne, Mathis, Redding would flock to this guy and push this guy to be better than anything displayed in Miami. I think they would give him the positive encouragement and constructive criticism he needs. People sometimes forget how much of a mental game sports are. I hope the best for Martin and not so much for Jerry, Pouncey and  Incognito.

[Naptown Lifer]

i hope martin doesnt get another job for the rest of his life

therefore no martin as he admitted he does drugs DURING the but you all seem to think that is preferable and are very very misinformed

 

i dont want a drug user on the colts, i know you guys do but i just dont think drugs bring out a persons personal best when it comes to athletics

 

[Dustin]

i hope martin doesnt get another job for the rest of his life

therefore no martin as he admitted he does drugs DURING the but you all seem to think that is preferable and are very very misinformed

 

i dont want a drug user on the colts, i know you guys do but i just dont think drugs bring out a persons personal best when it comes to athletics

 

You hope he doesn't get a job for the rest of his life because he did some drugs?

 

It's not like he killed someone...

[Naptown Lifer]

You hope he doesn't get a job for the rest of his life because he did some drugs?

 

It's not like he killed someone...

The post is a bad one.

I hate people that throw others under the bus

I think there was a reason why everyone on the dolphins had Ritchie's back. I think that all those players aren't stupid, and they knew what was going on more than us so I'll stick with what they said. Not the media who turns ever scenario into a race war

Martins texts incognito released show he's not a little innocent angel

[Dustin]

The post is a bad one.

I hate people that throw others under the bus

I think there was a reason why everyone on the dolphins had Ritchie's back. I think that all those players aren't stupid, and they knew what was going on more than us so I'll stick with what they said. Not the media who turns ever scenario into a race war

Martins texts incognito released show he's not a little innocent angel

 

This report is from the media. It's from a private investigator hired by the NFL.

[Naptown Lifer]

This report is from the media. It's from a private investigator hired by the NFL.

Again ill take the players word for it. I think there would be a lot of * off people with Richie if he was that racist, it really sounds like he just had bad boundaries and a terrible sense of humor.

I don't believe for a second that if it was found incognito didn't do anything they wouldn't somehow spin this to make it look like he was at least a little wrong. He said the n word and other homophobic words. I don't think the dolphins would have decided it was worth it to keep him right or wrong because all the scrutiny and public relations issues it would've caused regardless of what happened.

If ya really want someone on our team who can't stand up for themselves and is at risk to just walk out and throw people under the bus then you all will find reasons why it would be smart to sign him and downplay his actions.

But, you can't argue that paying someone to not play will benefit this team

That is what will happen with a mentally unstable martin who has shown no reason for me to believe he will not continue using drugs during the season. Hell fail a drop and boom, money down the pisser ( re dhb)

[oldunclemark]

Incognito is an inmate waiting to happen.....

 

He's known for being a behavior problem..and I cant believe anyone thought he was just a fun-loving good old boy..

 

 

...He has to be banned from the NFL for life...he's just a dangerous character who likes to abuse...any team that signs him risks getting that 2 a.m. phone call from the authorities 

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

i hope martin doesnt get another job for the rest of his life

therefore no martin as he admitted he does drugs DURING the but you all seem to think that is preferable and are very very misinformed

 

i dont want a drug user on the colts, i know you guys do but i just dont think drugs bring out a persons personal best when it comes to athletics

 

 

Again ill take the players word for it. I think there would be a lot of * off people with Richie if he was that racist, it really sounds like he just had bad boundaries and a terrible sense of humor.

I don't believe for a second that if it was found incognito didn't do anything they wouldn't somehow spin this to make it look like he was at least a little wrong. He said the n word and other homophobic words. I don't think the dolphins would have decided it was worth it to keep him right or wrong because all the scrutiny and public relations issues it would've caused regardless of what happened.

If ya really want someone on our team who can't stand up for themselves and is at risk to just walk out and throw people under the bus then you all will find reasons why it would be smart to sign him and downplay his actions.

But, you can't argue that paying someone to not play will benefit this team

That is what will happen with a mentally unstable martin who has shown no reason for me to believe he will not continue using drugs during the season. Hell fail a drop and boom, money down the pisser ( re dhb)

Wow talk about someone with a bone to pick or someone who just doesn't listen to the facts. 

[Callie]

This report disgusts me. Those guys in that lockerroom are pure filth. Incognito needs to be sent away. Seeing those comments about raping Martins sister disgusted me. Being a female myself, If I knew some guy was talking about rapping me to his buddies or if I had a brother to him, I'd hope he'd pay for it.

 

From reading the report, Martin was just trying to fit in. That explains some of his not so good texts. He thought by playing along, things would get better. Trying to fit into the culture. Which in the long run, emotionally hurt him even more. He is 100% the victim here, along with the other guys bullied.

[buccolts]

Incognito is an inmate waiting to happen.....

He's known for being a behavior problem..and I cant believe anyone thought he was just a fun-loving good old boy..

...He has to be banned from the NFL for life...he's just a dangerous character who likes to abuse...any team that signs him risks getting that 2 a.m. phone call from the authorities

Sounds like he'd make a good old fashioned Chicago cop.

[TYhaze]

Again ill take the players word for it. I think there would be a lot of * off people with Richie if he was that racist, it really sounds like he just had bad boundaries and a terrible sense of humor.

I don't believe for a second that if it was found incognito didn't do anything they wouldn't somehow spin this to make it look like he was at least a little wrong. He said the n word and other homophobic words. I don't think the dolphins would have decided it was worth it to keep him right or wrong because all the scrutiny and public relations issues it would've caused regardless of what happened.

If ya really want someone on our team who can't stand up for themselves and is at risk to just walk out and throw people under the bus then you all will find reasons why it would be smart to sign him and downplay his actions.

But, you can't argue that paying someone to not play will benefit this team

That is what will happen with a mentally unstable martin who has shown no reason for me to believe he will not continue using drugs during the season. Hell fail a drop and boom, money down the pisser ( re dhb)

You do know that a very large part of this report cites what other players in the locker room say, correct? This isn't some Skip Bayless writing. This is an actual investigation, and it's 144 pages long. Maybe you should check it out.