The Debate Continues........pm Vs Tb

[FireJimCaldwell]

firejimmy, thanks for the response, i don't have time to respond yet as i am going off to work but will later, but just a two quick questions . .. did you do the stats by hand or do you have a website . . . i use yahoo stats and am not sure if there is an option to look at common opponents amongst players, would love to have a site that does as oppose to doing it by hand . . .

and the last stat that i bolded is that for the afc east or south ?

also as for common opponents, not sure how you are judging that as both QBs have played every team in the NFL so would the common opponents be all the NFL . . .maybe you can define common opponents, are you combining the two divisions, that is games against both AFC east/south?

thanks . . .

It was done by hand and actually my brother did it and I think he might have used Yahoo, espn or NFL.com, they are all pretty much the same as well, but it wasn't by division . It's just when the teams played the same opponent in any given year.

For example

2010 SD

2009 BUF, NYJ, BAL, TEN, MIA, BUF, JAX, HOU

2008 NA due to Brady's injury

2007 BAL, SD

2006 BUF NYJ DEN CIN MIA HOU JAX TEN

2005 PIT SD

2004 KC BAL

2003 BUF NYJ TEN MIA CLE DEN HOU JAX

2002 PIT MIA DEN TEN

2001 MIA DEN ATL BUF NO NYJ

In years 03 06,09 Brady would have played Buffalo, Miami and the Jets twice, while Manning would play Houston, Tennessee, & Jacksonville twice.

It's just one view of trying to compare apples to apples, even though there is a chance that a team Manning played was quite different than a team Brady played based on injuries and such. I just found it interesting.

On my monitor it's not clear what was bolded and what wasn't. The stat line was just all of the individual stats in those games totaled up.

[Yehoodi]

It was done by hand and actually my brother did it and I think he might have used Yahoo, espn or NFL.com, they are all pretty much the same as well, but it wasn't by division . It's just when the teams played the same opponent in any given year.

For example

2010 SD

2009 BUF, NYJ, BAL, TEN, MIA, BUF, JAX, HOU

2008 NA due to Brady's injury

2007 BAL, SD

2006 BUF NYJ DEN CIN MIA HOU JAX TEN

2005 PIT SD

2004 KC BAL

2003 BUF NYJ TEN MIA CLE DEN HOU JAX

2002 PIT MIA DEN TEN

2001 MIA DEN ATL BUF NO NYJ

In years 03 06,09 Brady would have played Buffalo, Miami and the Jets twice, while Manning would play Houston, Tennessee, & Jacksonville twice.

It's just one view of trying to compare apples to apples, even though there is a chance that a team Manning played was quite different than a team Brady played based on injuries and such. I just found it interesting.

On my monitor it's not clear what was bolded and what wasn't. The stat line was just all of the individual stats in those games totaled up.

great thanks, i'll take a look at it . . .

[UMLBB10]

if Tom Brady were on the Colts they win a few of the following SB's- '03, '04, '05, '06, '07, '09, '10

instead they have manning and win 1

[gspdx]

That's funny.

The NFL coaches poll was after '07.

The NFL players poll was after '10.

Next?

Not these again. You sure like using these. Sure, the coaches voted for Brady after the '07 season - almost 4 years ago! And the player poll had a handfull of responses - a useless and statistically insignificant measure. I showed the math on it in another thread so I'm not goiing to get into it. But it makes you sound like a politician.

I personally think Manning is better, but that is just an opinion, which is all we really have. We are all trying to support our opinion with certain facts and then we try to discredit the other guys facts.

[GoGoColts]

Pat's fans on a Colts forum represents a level of insecurity that won't allow them to concede the truth although they know it in their hearts.

[ViriLudant]

Don't back pedal on your opinion. Peyton made those receivers. Randy Moss and Wes Welker made Brady.

Do you honestly have one legitimate argument? Or do you always fall back on these pithy comments that smack of ridiculousness?

How'd Moss do in Oakland?

How'd Welker do in Miami?

How did Reche Caldwell do once he left NE?

How did Branch do when he went to Seattle?

(I guarantee you won't answer these questions, though, because they completely crush your argument.)

[ViriLudant]

Common opponents 2001-2007 & 2009-2010, Manning has better #'s than Brady, yet Brady has more wins. Why? better team.

Records

Manning is 33-19,

Brady is 39-12.

The difference in games played is that Manning started against he Jets twice in 2001, while Brady started against them once(entering the game Bledsoe was injured).

PPG

Colts 24.5

Pats 23.0

PAPG

Colts 22.8

Pats 17.1

Stat Line

Manning 1209/1835 65.9% 13953 yds 268.3 pg 86 td 56 int qbr of 91.6

Brady 1016/1638 62.0% 11357 yds 222.7 pg 73 td 30 int qbr of 89.9

It's always been like that.

The following #'s were entering this season( so Brady's haven't been updated)

Manning & Brady are 20-0 and 15-0 respectively when the team scores 40+ points

Manning is 72-7 when scoring 30+

Brady is 55-1 when scoring 30+

The fact that Manning has lost 7 times when scoring 30 points is embarrassing.

Brady's D has allowed 10 or fewer points 41 times

Manning's D has allowed 10 or fewer points 32 times. At that point in time, Manning had started 65 more games. 4 seasons and a game. Again, embarrassing.

QB play.

If Brady plays lights out QBR of 125+ 19-0

If Manning does the same 33-2

100+

Brady 60-3

Manning 73-9

90+

Brady 74-5

Manning 96-24

Bad Games

69 or lower

Manning is 10-26

Brady is 13-13

So the difference is coaching and the players around them, whether those players are on offense or defense.

Patriots can recover to a .500 team if Brady has a bad game. If Manning has a bad game, rarely can the Colts overcome it.

And tell me, where's the very important factor of playing in a dome for half the season versus playing in the elements of New England?

Brady has better dome stats than Peyton. That's a fact.

[Smitto]

Honest question? how long have been a Colts fan, or watching the colts? Football?

Ive been a fan for 13yrs and im 22, not that it even matters.... just cause i dont worship manning, i dont like a player so much that i wont criticize him...

I was reading this report and i tried to keep an open mind... (of course its an 09 article) but even if it was the record would be a bit worse.

Here bleacher report dubs peyton as a guy who DOESNT CHOKE in the playoffs

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/126162-the-myth-of-peyton-mannings-postseason-chokes-exposed-as-works-of-fiction

BUT after last years jets game, they realized what most ppl here would not want to believe

PEYOTN MANNING IS OVERRATED

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/567664-nfl-playoffs-peyton-manning-further-proves-hes-most-overrated-quarterback-ever

Now i will not say what he said BUT i do think fans need to be real here and just think about this.... IF peyton can carry the colts sooooooo many times like he has in the 4th quarter of games and dominate teams in the REGULAR season.... then why cant he do that in the POST SEASON?????

[ViriLudant]

I will say this, though, just to clarify my stance on this:

Peyton is a phenomenal QB. The second best playing today, although Rogers is close behind.

However, his postseason accomplishments are less than stellar. I would never want him leading my team in the playoffs. Regular season, heck yes.

[UMLBB10]

the colts are not 0-6 because manning is out. they are 0-6 because polian was too stubborn to have a capable QB on the roster to step in if disaster struck

the '08 Pats didn't 11-5 because Brady is just a part in a machine. They went 11-5 because Bellichick always plans ahead. for every situation

[GoGoColts]

BUT after last years jets game, they realized what most ppl here would not want to believe

PEYOTN MANNING IS OVERRATED

http://bleacherrepor...uarterback-ever

Now i will not say what he said BUT i do think fans need to be real here and just think about this.... IF peyton can carry the colts sooooooo many times like he has in the 4th quarter of games and dominate teams in the REGULAR season.... then why cant he do that in the POST SEASON?????

Peyton lost a lot in the playoffs. As people who know anything have said for a long time is now known to be true. Peyton takes horrific teams to the playoffs every year. As Brady's defense tanked, what has he done in the playoffs.

Edited October 19, 2011 by GoGoColts

[FireJimCaldwell]

And tell me, where's the very important factor of playing in a dome for half the season versus playing in the elements of New England?

Brady has better dome stats than Peyton. That's a fact.

Was that supposed to be some form of trump card?

1) Weather/field conditions is highly overrated. 2) It's more about who you play as opposed to where you play.

Take for example the New England/Arizona game. Cassel vs. Warner. Who's the better quarterback? Kurt Warner, I don't care for him, but he's a better qb than Matt Cassel. Cassel was all-world that game. Warner, benched due to ineffectiveness. Some can put all of that on the weather. Matt Cassel, born & bread in Maine, played his college ball/4-year starter at UConn oh wait. Southern California boy, didn't start a game since high school, easily one of his better games that year in the worst conditions. Maybe he was better suited than Warner, but he sure did play better than the more established vet, but then again, Warner was going up against a far better defensive scheme that disrupted Boldin & Fitzgerald, more than the Cardinals disrupted Welker & Moss. Warner was even outplayed by Leinart that day. Another one of them Maine boys...

Can there be a benefit in playing inside? of course. Does it supersede the opponent? Of course not. Brady & Manning would rather face a weaker defense in poor conditions than an elite defense indoors. Commonsense.

2) Brady should have better #'s than Manning in a dome. Manning plays everybody in the dome. More games. Brady has a smaller book of work in a dome, and pretty much has played weak defenses.

2001(Ind, Atl)

2002(Det)

2003(Hou, IND)

2004(STL)

2005(ATL)

2006(MIN)

2007(IND)

2009(IND, NO, HOU)

2010(DET)

Not many elite defenses there. When our defense and likely New Orleans is the best your facing indoors, you should dominate and have great statistics.

One could easily say 111 @98.7 is more impressive than 14 @ 103.1.

So if that was some sort of a trump card, it was a very week trump card.

I get the feeling you like to throw things against the wall and you hope it sticks.

Ive been a fan for 13yrs and im 22, not that it even matters.... just cause i dont worship manning, i dont like a player so much that i wont criticize him...

I was reading this report and i tried to keep an open mind... (of course its an 09 article) but even if it was the record would be a bit worse.

Here bleacher report dubs peyton as a guy who DOESNT CHOKE in the playoffs

http://bleacherrepor...orks-of-fiction

BUT after last years jets game, they realized what most ppl here would not want to believe

PEYOTN MANNING IS OVERRATED

http://bleacherrepor...uarterback-ever

Now i will not say what he said BUT i do think fans need to be real here and just think about this.... IF peyton can carry the colts sooooooo many times like he has in the 4th quarter of games and dominate teams in the REGULAR season.... then why cant he do that in the POST SEASON?????

Oh it matters and it explains a lot. So I'll just leave it at that. I was just wondering how one could accumulate the point of view that you have. Thanks for the response.

Bleacher report is the last source I would even begin to quote because someone create an account, and type an article that says Jeff George & Steve Grogan are the greatest Colts & Patriots Quarterbacks ever. I won't even bat an eye at it. I'm sure there are some well written pieces, but when I was giving the site a chance there was far more garbage on it so I'll pass. I form my opinions.

I will say this, though, just to clarify my stance on this:

Peyton is a phenomenal QB. The second best playing today, although Rogers is close behind.

However, his postseason accomplishments are less than stellar. I would never want him leading my team in the playoffs. Regular season, heck yes.

Yet in a grand scheme of things, Manning has out performed Brady in the post season as a quarterback. Which goes back to the other 52 guys & staff & scheme, etc. The quarterback position is not the reason the Patriots have 3 rings and the Colts have 1.

Post season here:

http://www.pro-footb...om/blog/?p=8700

Manning averages more yds per drive than Brady in the post season

Manning averages more pts per drive than Brady in the post season

Manning averages more td's per drive than Brady in the post season

Manning averages fewer 3 & out's in the post season

Manning averages fewer punts per drive in the post season

Manning turns the ball over at a lower rate per drive in the post season

Manning has the worst starting field position

Other interesting facts

Manning has the two worst average starting field positions in the data, the worst (2008 vs Sd) and the 2009 SB vs New Orleans is the runner up.

Edited October 19, 2011 by FIreJimmy

[GoGoColts]

Was that supposed to be some form of trump card?

1) Weather/field conditions is highly overrated. 2) It's more about who you play as opposed to where you play.

Take for example the New England/Arizona game. Cassel vs. Warner. Who's the better quarterback? Kurt Warner, I don't care for him, but he's a better qb than Matt Cassel. Cassel was all-world that game. Warner, benched due to ineffectiveness. Some can put all of that on the weather. Matt Cassel, born & bread in Maine, played his college ball/4-year starter at UConn oh wait. Southern California boy, didn't start a game since high school, easily one of his better games that year in the worst conditions. Maybe he was better suited than Warner, but he sure did play better than the more established vet, but then again, Warner was going up against a far better defensive scheme that disrupted Boldin & Fitzgerald, more than the Cardinals disrupted Welker & Moss. Warner was even outplayed by Leinart that day. Another one of them Maine boys...

Can there be a benefit in playing inside? of course. Does it supersede the opponent? Of course not. Brady & Manning would rather face a weaker defense in poor conditions than an elite defense indoors. Commonsense.

2) Brady should have better #'s than Manning in a dome. Manning plays everybody in the dome. More games. Brady has a smaller book of work in a dome, and pretty much has played weak defenses.

2001(Ind, Atl)

2002(Det)

2003(Hou, IND)

2004(STL)

2005(ATL)

2006(MIN)

2007(IND)

2009(IND, NO, HOU)

2010(DET)

Not many elite defenses there. When our defense and likely New Orleans is the best your facing indoors, you should dominate and have great statistics.

One could easily say 111 @98.7 is more impressive than 14 @ 103.1.

So if that was some sort of a trump card, it was a very week trump card.

I get the feeling you like to throw things against the wall and you hope it sticks.

Oh it matters and it explains a lot. So I'll just leave it at that. I was just wondering how one could accumulate the point of view that you have. Thanks for the response.

Bleacher report is the last source I would even begin to quote because someone create an account, and type an article that says Jeff George & Steve Grogan are the greatest Colts & Patriots Quarterbacks ever. I won't even bat an eye at it. I'm sure there are some well written pieces, but when I was giving the site a chance there was far more garbage on it so I'll pass. I form my opinions.

Yet in a grand scheme of things, Manning has out performed Brady in the post season as a quarterback. Which goes back to the other 52 guys & staff & scheme, etc. The quarterback position is not the reason the Patriots have 3 rings and the Colts have 1.

Post season here:

http://www.pro-footb...om/blog/?p=8700

Manning averages more yds per drive than Brady in the post season

Manning averages more pts per drive than Brady in the post season

Manning averages more td's per drive than Brady in the post season

Manning averages fewer 3 & out's in the post season

Manning averages fewer punts per drive in the post season

Manning turns the ball over at a lower rate per drive in the post season

Manning has the worst starting field position

Other interesting facts

Manning has the two worst average starting field positions in the data, the worst (2008 vs Sd) and the 2009 SB vs New Orleans is the runner up.

It all boils down to the Patriot defense over the years versus what Indy had.

[FireJimCaldwell]

And tell me, where's the very important factor of playing in a dome for half the season versus playing in the elements of New England?

Brady has better dome stats than Peyton. That's a fact.

Oh and to put the opponents into perspective.

When Manning plays in a dome on the road i.e, ARI, ATL, DET,MIN, NO, STL, HOU. Unfortunately he doesn't get to go against his own defense or the #'s would likely be even better.

Manning is 417/587 71% 4792 45td 13 int qb rating of 111.6 in 17 games exceeds Brady's dome performance totals.

Edited October 19, 2011 by FIreJimmy

[dynasty13]

This whole debate is foolish. You'd think they would have stopped in a year when Peyton hasnt taken a single snap. But what a surprise...Colts fans are using their teams pitiful record in his absence as 'proof' that Peyton is the greatest. Ive said this before and ill say it again...Peyton may be considered by many the greatest of all time when all is said and done. But he will be considered that for what he did ON the field...not what his team is doing while he is OFF it.

Look, the vibe Im getting from many Colts fans is that Peyton is the only one who could have won with this Colts team...and how the fact that they suck this year proves how hes the greatest ever and the all-time MVP of the NFL. The Colts are 0-6 not because Peyton is the only one who can win with them, its because they failed to provide adequate depth at certain positions (QB especially) and never considered having to play without Peyton.

The Colts have been in position to win many of these games this year, theres no telling how Peyton would have changed these games. Sure, its reasonable to assume that the Colts would be 4-2 or 5-1 right now with him, but remember...these Colts struggled to a 10-6 record last year WITH Peyton...if the Colts win even 4 or 5 games this year...thats a reasonable drop off and one I would expect for a team that is clearly only built to succeed when they have a capable quarterback.

The other argument that continually comes up and is such nonsense its not even funny is the one about how the Pats went 11-5 without Brady and the Colts are 0-6 without Peyton. What you guys dont understand is that doesnt show who of the two is better, it shows which backup is better and which organization is better. You're also not comparing two equal situations. The Pats lost Brady coming off a year in which they won 18 games and many called them the greatest team of all time, and they replaced him with a guy that had been in the organization for years and they changed the system to fit his strengths. The Colts lost Peyton coming off a year where they struggled to 10-6 and they replaced him with a 40+ guy brought out of retirement a week before the season started and a 2nd year backup who the fans had already turned on, and because, as many of you regularly point out, Peyton used to run everything, they are seemingly incapable of forming their offense around their new quarterback's strengths.

I just dont understand how you can 'take away' what Brady has done just because he has time in the pocket. He has some of the best pocket-presence Ive ever seen, and that creates more time for him. Every quarterback needs time...dont make it sound like Peyton never struggled when he was getting pressured. I remember a stretch last year when he threw something like 32 picks in 4 games, and people here were going crazy about the o-line. There are other times where Ive seen Peyton have plenty of time and little pressure. Hes not perfect...he needs what every other quarterback in this league has needed since the beginning of time, and he too struggles when he doesnt get it.

Your quarterback is sitting on the sideline. hes not the greatest of anything right now...its time to let these comparisons die until hes back out there doing what we all know he can.

[FireJimCaldwell]

It all boils down to the Patriot defense over the years versus what Indy had.

Along with coaching & schemes

[Moose Of Woe]

if Tom Brady were on the Colts they win a few of the following SB's- '03, '04, '05, '06, '07, '09, '10

instead they have manning and win 1

He'd have to lead them to a winning season first. Possibly in 2003-2005.

The problem is, even if he leads Indy to the playoffs, he runs in to the Patriots in '03 (God help him if they had Manning) and the TEAM OF THE DECADE 2004 Patriots in a raging blizzard.

2005? The Steelers crush him.

2006-Current = never sniff the playoffs.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Moose Of Woe

[GoGoColts]

And tell me, where's the very important factor of playing in a dome for half the season versus playing in the elements of New England?

Brady has better dome stats than Peyton. That's a fact.

That's because Brady goes on the road and plays bad defenses that also happen to play in domes. Peyton would have the same benefit, but it is balanced out by playing good defenses at home.

[GoGoColts]

the colts are not 0-6 because manning is out. they are 0-6 because polian was too stubborn to have a capable QB on the roster to step in if disaster struck

the '08 Pats didn't 11-5 because Brady is just a part in a machine. They went 11-5 because Bellichick always plans ahead. for every situation

So you agree that Brady just has better talent around him and organizational support.

Edited October 19, 2011 by GoGoColts

[FireJimCaldwell]

That's because Brady goes on the road and plays bad defenses that also happen to play in domes. Peyton would have the same benefit, but it is balanced out by playing good defenses at home.

Which was proven above and now below:

When Manning plays in a dome on the road i.e, ARI, ATL, DET,MIN, NO, STL, HOU. Unfortunately he doesn't get to go against his own defense or the #'s would likely be even better.

Manning is 417/587 71% 4792 yds 45 td 13 int qb rating of 111.6 in 17 games indoors & on the road.

Brady is 289/430 67% 3622 yds 16 td 5 int qb rating of 103.1 in 13 games indoors.

[DILLIGAFER]

And tell me, where's the very important factor of playing in a dome for half the season versus playing in the elements of New England?

Brady has better dome stats than Peyton. That's a fact.

Boy, you are just full of excuses. Brady doesn't play indoors, bradys this, bradys that. Yada yada yada. All i keep hearing is a broken record. Someone take the quarter outa this guy please.

[patsallday]

Your quarterback is sitting on the sideline. hes not the greatest of anything right now.

exactly.

the only thing that this season "proves" is that the colts have done a terrible job with the back-up QB position.

that's it.

[GoPats]

The amount of misinformation spilling out of this thread is just crazy. I don't see a lot of Pats fans going too far out of their way to discredit Manning, but the opposite is unfortunately not true. Problem is, most folks seems to be operating from a platform of inaccuracy and ignorance of the facts.

Brady did not inherit a powerhouse team. They were 5-11 the season before he took over, 8-8 the season before that, and 0-2 after Mo Lewis hit Bledsoe so hard that it sheared a blood vessel in his chest.

Belichick, without Brady, has a losing record as a head coach (41-57).

The Patriots' defenses in the Super Bowl years were certainly much better than what they're fielding these days, but for anyone who was following the NFL at the time, the Colts were heavy favorites in virtually all of their early match-ups, and the "underdog" Pats were heralded as a bunch of over-achieving, "lunch pail" types. None of the members of those defenses are Hall of Fame bound... let's put it that way. This wasn't the '85 Bears or the '00 Ravens.

What I'm seeing happen here is a lot of people trying to "prove" points about their choice by dumping all over the other one. Kind of reminds me of those political ads that say "don't vote for the other guy" instead of "vote for me."

And that's kind of a shame. People aren't realizing here that we're very fortunate to be watching two of the greatest of all time in their primes. You'll never find me bashing Manning to somehow make Brady look better, that's for sure. I'm a Patriots fan so of course I'd rather have Brady, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid enough to try to tell anyone that Manning is not just as good, or possibly even better. That's the other part about this that's foolish... we're trying to debate this while both guys are still in the league. Can't it at least wait until they're retired and we're judging two full bodies of work?

But I suppose people don't let small things - like, you know, having actual facts at hand - get in the way of having an opinion!

[patsallday]

Charlie Weiss got on Mike and Mike and said point blank that Peyton Manning is the only guy in the league who can do what he does. The other guys can't hold that much information. The Wonderlic is an IQ test, but it also have a lot to do with how hard you study in school.

ha.

i've also heard charlie weiss say there's no other QB he'd rather have than tom brady.

i'm guessing you'll dismiss that as opinion, but what he said about peyton you'll cling to as a fact.

you guys are too, too funny.

[DILLIGAFER]

"The Colts have been in position to win many of these games this year, theres no telling how Peyton would have changed these games. Sure, its reasonable to assume that the Colts would be 4-2 or 5-1 right now with him, but remember...these Colts struggled to a 10-6 record last year WITH Peyton...if the Colts win even 4 or 5 games this year...thats a reasonable drop off and one I would expect for a team that is clearly only built to succeed when they have a capable quarterback"

And remind me how many starters the Colts had on IR!? Your argument is completely wrong. Throw away upwards of 21 starters throughout Bradys season and watch the boat sink. I get really sick of hearing how the Colts ALMOST DIDN'T WIN THEY'RE DIVISION.

[patsallday]

And remind me how many starters the Colts had on IR!? Your argument is completely wrong. Throw away upwards of 21 starters throughout Bradys season and watch the boat sink.

troy brown had to play nickelback because the pats were so injury depleted in 2004.

oh yeh, we won the super bowl that year.

injuries are part of the game.

[HGRekks]

I think these arguments are a waste of time. I would not complain one bit with either of them. It's subjective, and I can't fault someone for saying one or the other.

If the question is Brady or Manning, the answer is "Yes, please."

[GoPats]

I think these arguments are a waste of time. I would not complain one bit with either of them. It's subjective, and I can't fault someone for saying one or the other.

If the question is Brady or Manning, the answer is "Yes, please."

Hallelujah and Amen to that, Rexall...

[Yehoodi]

I think these arguments are a waste of time. I would not complain one bit with either of them. It's subjective, and I can't fault someone for saying one or the other.

If the question is Brady or Manning, the answer is "Yes, please."

preaching to the choir . . . . as GoPats said Amen to that . . .

[Xfiles]

I think these arguments are a waste of time. I would not complain one bit with either of them. It's subjective, and I can't fault someone for saying one or the other.

If the question is Brady or Manning, the answer is "Yes, please."

In honor of some even keeled sense and the fact that this debate always spins out of control, well said Rex, I am moving on.

[KirkCousins#8]

Just be thankful that we can watch them both play at a high level.Its been enjoyable watching them compete all these years.If 18# can get one more ring,then without question...its him(if brady remains at just 3).However the whole spygate situation has tarnished toms' image in my eyes.Since that revelation they've won nothing.It makes you wonder just how much that helped them(the pats).We have no way of knowing just how long that was going on and how it influenced mannings' career.He had a lot of bad playoff games agains't them while the whole spygate was underway.After that he begun to tear them apart.So it makes you reflect on just how much it hurt him and his career.I think it took away atleast one ring,...maybe two from our franchise.That's unfortunate.

P.S.The ring agains't the rams should have an asterisk.

[GoGoColts]

ha.

i've also heard charlie weiss say there's no other QB he'd rather have than tom brady.

i'm guessing you'll dismiss that as opinion, but what he said about peyton you'll cling to as a fact.

you guys are too, too funny.

What seems more factual and credible? We tried to teach Tom to remember more plays, but he couldn't or someone's former offensive coordinator backing him up.

[UMLBB10]

P.S.The ring agains't the rams should have an asterisk.

why would the rams rimg have a asterisk?

[patsallday]

What seems more factual and credible? We tried to teach Tom to remember more plays, but he couldn't or someone's former offensive coordinator backing him up.

are you serious?

what sounds more "credible"? hmmmm, i'm going with weis saying he'd rather have the QB he won 3 titles with.

let's talk about "factual". tom can't learn as many plays as peyton?? really? this is how low you're willing to stoop? is there really any way to quantify that ridiculous statement?

look, i know you don't have a lot to be excited this football season with peyton on the sideline. i get that. but this smear campaign against brady is getting borderline pathetic. first he's not smart enough to run the colts offense and now he can't learn as many plays as peyton??

ha.

maybe you can be on "c'mon man" this monday night.

Edited October 19, 2011 by patsallday

[indy1888]

exactly.

the only thing that this season "proves" is that the colts have done a terrible job with the back-up QB position.

that's it.

Not exactly. The QB has put the team in position to win every game so far. The only game that was not the case was week 1 with Houston with Kerry Collins. What this season really proves is how bad Bill Polian was over the last several years, how bad the secondary is, how weak the special teams are.

There are far bigger problems then the QB right now. And all these problems were here when Manning was winning 10-12 games a year. A lot of Colts fan who don't wear blinders have said for years that no QB does so much more with less then Manning. This team hasn't been as great as some want to believe. This season doesn't surprise me one bit, i won't be stunned if they go winless all year. But as far as Painter goes, he actually has surprised me. He's led the offense better then i would have ever imagined. He's just not the greatest to ever play, he's not Manning and he isn't going to work miracles. He probably isn't going to win 6-8 games on 4th qtr comebacks like Manning did in 09. He isn't going to outscore the other team in shootouts like Manning did. He isn't going to win games where the offense only sees the ball for 15 minutes like Manning did against the Dolphins a few years ago. He isn't a miracle worker. He is a backup QB.

Now everyone is entitled to their own opinion as to who is better. I'll take Manning every day. I don't know if this season really proves anything, it's what i expected. It does show however that the overall team is not nearly as good as the Pats. And in my opinion that has been the case for a very long time. That is why when Brady goes down, they win 11 games. When Manning goes down, well, we will see if we are the 08 lions or not in a few months. Someone mentioned earlier about the Colts possibly winning 4 or 5 games and that being a reasonable drop without Manning. That's hilarious, this team won't sniff 4 wins.

[GoPats]

Just be thankful that we can watch them both play at a high level.Its been enjoyable watching them compete all these years.If 18# can get one more ring,then without question...its him(if brady remains at just 3).However the whole spygate situation has tarnished toms' image in my eyes.Since that revelation they've won nothing.It makes you wonder just how much that helped them(the pats).We have no way of knowing just how long that was going on and how it influenced mannings' career.He had a lot of bad playoff games agains't them while the whole spygate was underway.After that he begun to tear them apart.So it makes you reflect on just how much it hurt him and his career.I think it took away atleast one ring,...maybe two from our franchise.That's unfortunate.

P.S.The ring agains't the rams should have an asterisk.

This is exactly the kind of response I was talking about earlier. If you want to make a case for Manning you certainly can. He's an incredible player and as a fan of the game I feel fortunate having had the chance to watch him do his thing.

But if you do make your case based on this kind of inaccurate and misguided stance, you open things up for debate.

Little history lesson here.

Spygate was about the Patriots filming defensive signals from other teams. Not offensive plays. Offensive plays have been radioed in to the QB for a long time now.

The Colts' offense put up 14 points in the playoffs against NE after the '03 season, and a paltry 3 points against them the following post season. Even if the Patriots were filming signals back then, how does that in any way, shape, or form impact the Colts' offense?

Do you even understand what Spygate was? Or do you just like to toss it out there at random?

Even if that wasn't the case...

Manning's playoff record against New England is 1-2. His overall record is, what, 9-10?

So take the Pats-Colts games out of that mix, and you get 8-8.

The Patriots have had nothing at all to do with the seven "one-and-dones." Fact is, in the 10 playoff losses under Manning, the Colts have put up just a touch over 14 points/game.

Last but not least...

The Colts beat the Patriots for the first time in Manning's career in November 2005. Indy won the next three, including the biggest match-up in the AFC Championship Game following the '06 season.

Spygate "broke" in September 2007.

Again... don't let a lack of facts get in the way of you having an opinion! ;)

[Smitto]

I think these arguments are a waste of time. I would not complain one bit with either of them. It's subjective, and I can't fault someone for saying one or the other.

If the question is Brady or Manning, the answer is "Yes, please."

definitely what he said... this will not go anywhere

[Cain Marko]

Ahh yes, Pats fan's in a Colts forum.

IMO this season proves everything anyone needs to know. Peyton.

[justcolts]

I am a Peyton Manning fan and that's what made me a colts fan. Earlier i used to dislike Brady just because i was a Manning fan and wanted Brady to fail. But over the years i have realized that both are special and great role models. They took different paths, Manning was always labelled the next great one and had pressure to prove that label and to play to everyone's expectations while Brady came into the league with the altogether different type of pressure, not many people had great expectations from him or saw him beyond a back up at best. Both of them have common traits of "winners" , they are intelligent, hard working and don't go out to grab attention. I think both of them have directly and indirectly made each other better with a healthy competition.

I still root for Manning and wish for him to come back and have great seasons and super bowl wins but i no longer dislike Brady, whenever i watch a NE game i admire his poise and the way he shreds the opposite team, (Although i must admit that i also enjoy when he fails, which recently has been very rare).

Personally i will take Manning over Brady every time, like people have already pointed out this is a never ending debate with good arguments from both sides.

[GoGoColts]

Ahh yes, Pats fan's in a Colts forum.

IMO this season proves everything anyone needs to know. Peyton.

That's exactly what I am saying. If they are so jealous and insecure that they have to come to a Colts forum, to make sure that threads like this don't go unchecked, it's clear what the right answer is.