The Debate Continues........pm Vs Tb

[number28]

Brady always had better coaching staff and FO. Better O-line, better D and better players.

Manning didn't and he is still better statistically and he also won the big game. When they both enter the hall of fame Manning will have better stats by a ton.

Now if Manning had all those great things Brady had, it will be a no contest.

Brady wins games because of Bellichek and philosophy in NE.

Manning wins games because of pure skill and ability to make everyone else better on a terrible team. yes we are horrible and this year proves it. We are the same type of team we were in the last 10 years.

Put Brady in Miami or Saint Louie and he might struggle. Put Manning in those teams and they will make playoffs because Manning has played with a vanilla team for the last decade +.

There should never be a debate who is a better QB.

Just because Montana won all those SB's doesn't make him better than Marino, because Marino is a much better QB and he never had a good team around him like Montana had.

Skills matter, not a great team that is there to make you look good. Its about how good you make a bad team look.

[Smitto]

Brady is no different than any other low darft pick that was coached up.

The fact Manning was the first round draft pick and had all that weight on his shoulders and became the greatest QB to ever play the game is the most impressive.

Really? no different? how many low draft pick has done what he has done?... and ppl say brady is clutch? i call the dude a doctor when it comes to performing in the 4th quarter... the fact that peyton had players that had the skills to help him become who he is... and the fact that brady didnt means that he has been more impressive than manning because he workd with what he had.

And if there is anyone that has been coached up it was Peyton... he and tom moore came up with the no huddle and the different types of lingos to call their plays.

[number28]

Really? no different? how many low draft pick has done what he has done?...

you mean Bellichek has done?

since you people think that HC is to blame for everything, like you blame Caldwell. So I guess Bellicheck is the reason for Brady success.

[Smitto]

you mean Bellichek has done?

since you people think that HC is to blame for everything, like you blame Caldwell. So I guess Bellicheck is the reason for Brady success.

Aye you need to seriously pay attention in this forum, i do not blame caldwell for anything.... and no i do not mean bill, i meant brady.

[number28]

yes, you mean what Bellichek has done. Since HC takes all the credit and all the blame, why should Brady get all the credit for his success.

You mean what Bellicheck has done?

[manningup]

Don't you think your BROmance with tb would really be appreciated on a patriot's message board? I'm just saying.....

Oh, and the fact that he was a 6th round choice suggests he didn't play as well as Peyton did in college either............

[DILLIGAFER]

Really? no different? how many low draft pick has done what he has done?... and ppl say brady is clutch? i call the dude a doctor when it comes to performing in the 4th quarter... the fact that peyton had players that had the skills to help him become who he is... and the fact that brady didnt means that he has been more impressive than manning because he workd with what he had.

And if there is anyone that has been coached up it was Peyton... he and tom moore came up with the no huddle and the different types of lingos to call their plays.

So poor lil Brady hasn't been surrounded by talent huh? Guess Bill as his coach didn't help, oh and welkers a bust along with moss.

Your argument is invalid and has no merit. That run game brady had was a bust too. Its not like it opened up the passing game.. but wait it did. Never mind.

[number28]

So poor lil Brady hasn't been surrounded by talent huh? Guess Bill as his coach didn't help, oh and welkers a bust along with moss.

Your argument is invalid and has no merit. That run game brady had was a bust too. Its not like it opened up the passing game.. but wait it did. Never mind.

now why would you put Moss and Welker in the same sentence?

Moss was great on any team he played, even did well on a horrid Raiders team.

Put Welker back in Miami and he becomes pedestrian and they are still 0-5.

Please, don't put Welker in the same sentence as HOF receivers.

[FireJimCaldwell]

you mean Bellichek has done?

since you people think that HC is to blame for everything, like you blame Caldwell. So I guess Bellicheck is the reason for Brady success.

A huge part of Brady's success..

[DILLIGAFER]

Really? no different? how many low draft pick has done what he has done?... and ppl say brady is clutch? i call the dude a doctor when it comes to performing in the 4th quarter... the fact that peyton had players that had the skills to help him become who he is... and the fact that brady didnt means that he has been more impressive than manning because he workd with what he had.

And if there is anyone that has been coached up it was Peyton... he and tom moore came up with the no huddle and the different types of lingos to call their plays.

So poor lil Brady hasn't been surrounded by talent huh? Guess Bill as his coach didn't help, oh and welkers a bust along with moss.

Your argument is invalid and has no merit. That run game brady had was a bust too. Its not like it opened up the passing game.. but wait it did. Never mind.

[cranium cramp]

Really? no different? how many low draft pick has done what he has done?... and ppl say brady is clutch? i call the dude a doctor when it comes to performing in the 4th quarter... the fact that peyton had players that had the skills to help him become who he is... and the fact that brady didnt means that he has been more impressive than manning because he workd with what he had.

And if there is anyone that has been coached up it was Peyton... he and tom moore came up with the no huddle and the different types of lingos to call their plays.

You ever heard of a guy named Joe Montana? What round you you think this guy was picked in? The round a QB is drafted in means nothing. Akili Smith? Ryan Leaf? The fact that you see Brady as better because he threw for 1 more TD in 6 more quarters of play, throw 100 more passes and throwingwith his team in the lead by 21 points on several occassions proves that you see greatness as being an individual achievement when in Bradys case it was a team that won it, not Brady.

The talent you claim Manning had was what? Harrison had done nothing before Manning. Aveage WR in a league of g

reats. Marcus Pollard ran to the Lions for more money and done nothing without Manning. Stokley went to Denver and has had a non-eventful career since.

The fact that all of Mannings targets are great with him and mediocre without him says all that I need. Manning is without a doubt the greatest QB I have ever seen play the game. Even having the great Marvin Harrison was a detriment to Manning. For all 88's greatness the guy just vanished in the playoffs. 1 great game versus the Broncos, 1 game. Other then that Marvin was a no show time and again.

You keep on thinking Brady is the greatest, the rest of us will know Manning is the greatest.

[Smitto]

So poor lil Brady hasn't been surrounded by talent huh? Guess Bill as his coach didn't help, oh and welkers a bust along with moss.

Your argument is invalid and has no merit. That run game brady had was a bust too. Its not like it opened up the passing game.. but wait it did. Never mind.

Man when did welker and moss come into the picture... even before them brady was established himself as a great QB.. and when they did get moss guess what happened he threw for 50TD's... which only proves my point that if only brady had the weapons that peyton had earlier on in his career you could only imagine what he would have done... obviously Bill's coaching helped BUT he's a defensive guy so you can bet it wasnt much.

[Xfiles]

This debate ended forever the moment the Colts fell apart without Peyton at the wheel.

If Peyton was playing, we would be 5-1

Hes not, and we are 0-6.

It doesnt have to be any more complicated then the fact that Peyton has forever covered so many deficiencies on offense(running game) and defense.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Xfiles

[Balzer40]

I can't believe this debate is even being talked about anymore. There is absolutely no doubt what so ever that Manning is the best QB to ever play this game. The entire discussion is just silly.

[Smitto]

You ever heard of a guy named Joe Montana? What round you you think this guy was picked in? The round a QB is drafted in means nothing. Akili Smith? Ryan Leaf? The fact that you see Brady as better because he threw for 1 more TD in 6 more quarters of play, throw 100 more passes and throwingwith his team in the lead by 21 points on several occassions proves that you see greatness as being an individual achievement when in Bradys case it was a team that won it, not Brady.

The talent you claim Manning had was what? Harrison had done nothing before Manning. Aveage WR in a league of g

reats. Marcus Pollard ran to the Lions for more money and done nothing without Manning. Stokley went to Denver and has had a non-eventful career since.

The fact that all of Mannings targets are great with him and mediocre without him says all that I need. Manning is without a doubt the greatest QB I have ever seen play the game. Even having the great Marvin Harrison was a detriment to Manning. For all 88's greatness the guy just vanished in the playoffs. 1 great game versus the Broncos, 1 game. Other then that Marvin was a no show time and again.

You keep on thinking Brady is the greatest, the rest of us will know Manning is the greatest.

Your draft status means everything, most likely it tells you how much your gonna get paid, whats expected from you and when your gonna play.... The round a QB is drafted means everything because if it didnt you would see guys like jim sorgi competing for jobs the same season they were drafted.

The fact that Marvin is a HOF guy means that he had the skills and a QB to take advantage of those skills.... A QB and a WR complement each other... your saying marvin disappeared during the playoffs, and what did peyton do? he sure didnt shine... its the QB's job to get the ball to the WR

Try to remember how peyton has played in the playoffs and who carried the colts to the superbowl more.... DEFENSE not peyton.... as i recall it was Adam's leg that got the colts to the AFC championship game....

Im not scared to say it, during the playoffs early in his career peyton seemed nervous, you can tell that pressure of trying to carry the team all the way took a toll on him in the playoffs... obviously not all those losses were because of peyton because the colts have a bad defense and a high school special teams... but peyton was no HOF QB in the playoffs thats for sure.

I love peyton so dont try ripping my head off thats just the way i see it

[Smitto]

This debate ended forever the moment the Colts fell apart without Peyton at the wheel.

If Peyton was playing, we would be 5-1

Hes not, and we are 0-6.

It doesnt have to be any more complicated then the fact that Peyton has forever covered so many deficiencies on offense(running game) and defense.

i think thats more of the colts fault... ive said alot that if the colts had spread the money more earlier on in peytons career it would be the colts being the dynasty not the pats... the colts in the early years of peytons career did nothing but spend early round draft picks on the offense... that in the long run sure wont help the defense... that itself puts ton of pressure on the QB to perform perfectly and keep the team running, and i think that pressure got to manning in the playoffs... hence why i think ppl said he had a monkey on his back.

[Xfiles]

i think thats more of the colts fault... ive said alot that if the colts had spread the money more earlier on in peytons career it would be the colts being the dynasty not the pats... the colts in the early years of peytons career did nothing but spend early round draft picks on the offense... that in the long run sure wont help the defense... that itself puts ton of pressure on the QB to perform perfectly and keep the team running, and i think that pressure got to manning in the playoffs... hence why i think ppl said he had a monkey on his back.

True, but it still proves to a fact that Peyton covered those deficiencies. If you watch the Patriots play, Tom Brady gets 10 seconds most plays to stand back in the pocket, make a sandwich, and find an open reciever. Tom has had that luxury his whole career. When Tom does rarely get pressured, he looks bad, very bad. Peyton is statistically the best in history vs. the Blitz with less than 2 seconds to throw the ball. Peyton is the greatest, He stands next to Ali and they share a toast.

[GoPats]

The debate for who is better is over.

Colts without Manning ... 0-6

So are you saying Matt Cassel would QB your current Colts team to an 11-5 record?

Look... Manning may well be regarded as the best-ever when he does hang 'em up. I've come to respect his accomplishments more and more as time has passed and as the rivalry has evolved. In other words, I'm not a hater, and while I'm as biased as any fan, I'm able to put that aside enough to give the man his due.

But this particular argument is extremely flawed. The Colts struggled to go 10-6 last year with Manning. The '08 Patriots nearly beat Manning and the Colts on your own field. That was a pretty solid team all-around. Comparing the results of the '08 season and the current season is a meaningless endeavor. Different teams, different schedules, different circumstances, different coaching staffs (which is a big one), etc. All it really "proves" is that the Patriots had a better second-string QB back then than the Colts do now.

The way I see things in the here-and-now is that Manning has been more productive and consistent through his career, while Brady's "best" has exceeded Manning's "best." Not that Brady has been inconsistent or that Manning has not shined at times, but just overall, Manning has played with a little more consistency while Brady's peaks have been a little higher. Doesn't necessarily make one better than the other... and like I've always said, it's a fool's endeavor to try to make that determination while both are still playing anyway.

[Smitto]

True, but it still proves to a fact that Peyton covered those deficiencies. If you watch the Patriots play, Tom Brady gets 10 seconds most plays to stand back in the pocket, make a sandwich, and find an open reciever. Tom has had that luxury his whole career. When Tom does rarely get pressured, he looks bad, very bad. Peyton is statistically the best in history vs. the Blitz with less than 2 seconds to throw the ball. Peyton is the greatest, He stands next to Ali and they share a toast.

No doubt peyton is one of the greatest.. but i dont think the colts Oline was that horrible now, they have had a pretty solid offensive line for some years, peyton would carry the team all the way to the playoffs and all of a sudden when the first game comes he starts struggling while brady doesnt.... this argument will never be won.

[Mitch]

No doubt peyton is one of the greatest.. but i dont think the colts Oline was that horrible now, they have had a pretty solid offensive line for some years, peyton would carry the team all the way to the playoffs and all of a sudden when the first game comes he starts struggling while brady doesnt.... this argument will never be won.

A solid O-line? Every post you have made has been a joke...you are probably a Tom Brady/Patriots fan boy. Peyton's O-line has been average at best and without his quick release there would be a ton more sacks/fumbles. It is obvious to me more than ever than Peyton is the greatest of all time. Matt Cassel is far from the reason that the Patriots went 11-5 with him. Tom Brady is a GREAT system player, one of the best. He's accurate, consistent, and clutch but that's also because of his team around him. He's had an amazing O-line his whole career with a great defense. Peyton has been the Colts, we built a team around him and it's obvious. We have a small/fast defense while brady had a good strong defense. The patriots have one of the best formulas for a team and once Brady retires you will see that they are much more than just a brady team. Now the Colts on the other hand are Peyton Manning's team. No player tears apart a defense like Peyton does nor knows/studies defenses more. If you honestly think Brady is the best QB ever because of his rings/single-season TD record(which is a single TD better than Peyton had) you aren't looking at the right statistics. If that's all that matters why isn't Montana the best ever in your opinion?

Edited October 18, 2011 by Mitch

[UMLBB10]

The debate for who is better is over.

Colts without Manning ... 0-6

Pats without Brady ... Make playoffs and Cassell makes the Pro Bowl. Lets not forget Cassell was even more of an unknown than Brady was initially before Brady went down. Brady had one of the best defences ever, arguably the best head coach ever and has an offensive line that is unbelievably good.

Brady is a great QB and one of the best ever but as long as Manning comes back and plays at a high level the next 3-4 years then it should be a no brainer.

all this means is that Cassell is a decent QB and the Pats front office is a lot better than Polian. If the colts had Matt Cassell this year you'd be doing just fine

[Mitch]

all this means is that Cassell is a decent QB and the Pats front office is a lot better than Polian. If the colts had Matt Cassell this year you'd be doing just fine

We would not be doing "fine" with Cassel lol. Patriots have a great system and just need a system QB to look great...The colts on the other hand are built around one player, PM and with Matt Cassel we may be 1-5...It's hard to even say he'd help win us a game. Curtis Painter is not the only reason we are losing...

Edited October 18, 2011 by Mitch

[GoGoColts]

The debate is kinda of over when you take a team to the playoffs every year that is otherwise the worst team in the league.

[gspdx]

The debate is kinda of over when you take a team to the playoffs every year that is otherwise the worst team in the league.

What a minute - I thought the assumption was the dolphins are the worst team in the league. My bad.

[GoPats]

All I can deduce from this thread is that there are a LOT of Colts fans who apparently started watching football within the past couple of seasons. While the 2010 and 2011 teams were/are not on-par with teams from earlier in the 2000s, Indy did not have a sub-par offensive line or a dearth of talent on their roster for the better part of the past decade. That's revisionist history at best, and it's insulting to the dozens of high-caliber, high-performance players who have poured their blood and sweat out on the field to help the Colts win games.

[gspdx]

All I can deduce from this thread is that there are a LOT of Colts fans who apparently started watching football within the past couple of seasons. While the 2010 and 2011 teams were/are not on-par with teams from earlier in the 2000s, Indy did not have a sub-par offensive line or a dearth of talent on their roster for the better part of the past decade. That's revisionist history at best, and it's insulting to the dozens of high-caliber, high-performance players who have poured their blood and sweat out on the field to help the Colts win games.

Agreed. Although the Colts have had an average defense most of the time the offense seemed to have the ability to score on any drive or any play for many years. I know many of us would wonder how we lost a game when the the score would be 31-28 or something like that because on so many occasions we would score more than that. And the o-line was good. I loved the stretch play to James and that only worked because the o-line blocked very well back then.

Either way Peyton is still the MVP of the decade :tears:

[04DarkShadowGT]

The preverbial dead horse is so beaten he has no more blood left coming out.

It is impossible to determine who is better, I would rather have Peyton in his prime than Brady in his prime. But one could easily argue that Brady is more clutch when it matters.

Peyton has done more with less, but Brady has taken what he was given to four SBs.

[bayone]

Who knows..maybe we'll see him Dec4th.

absolutely no way he plays @ Pats In Dec, He will risk permanent injury, let him stay off IR so can ptactice with team wwhen is cleared but dont let him play this season, He needs a Hard ,Not Soft fusion, thats 6 months not 3 & the nerve needs to regenerate and his triceps needs to gain strength , u just cant throw him in and expect him to perform without much practice first, thats a recipe for disaster

once IR'd and peyton himself said its OK with him if team needs the rooster spot, bur t once IR'd he cant practice with team and thats important for his rehab

[bayone]

Wow Smitto...a Colts fan not afraid to say that Brady is better than Manning. Refreshing...I respect that. I don't know that I necessarily agree but I would say that the argument is more debatable than alot of Colts fans want to believe. There are definitely some things that Brady does better. I am still partial to Peyton overall mainly because of his cerebral game but Brady has more of a killer instinct.

And yes it is true that the Colts surrounded Peyton with more weapons than Tom had early in their careers. Tom's got better weapons now and we are seeing what he can really do.

Toms weapons was a much heralded D behind him and a young Vini and an already overall good team

Edited October 18, 2011 by bayone

[crazy blue]

As a Colts fan my vote goes to Manning. If not for Manning I'd want Brady Rodgers as my QB.

But to add to the 'debate': The Pats haven't won a SB since Brady has been surrounded with better offensive talent, and the defense has regressed (and some Vinatieri guy left). Ironically, the Colts lone SB win came with Manning putting up some bad stats and a solid defense (and Vinatieri) to support him. Carry on!

[COLT in J-ville]

I Love peyton, for christ sakes i have the guys name sketched on my SA80... But peyton was basically handed the keys to a Ferrari while Brady's more like a painter where not much is expected out of him yet he comes out has a stellar career... I didnt wanna admit it when it happened but the fact that the guy surpassed Peytons record for most TD's thrown in a season showed me that he was better than manning.

BUT manning means more to his team than anyone has in the history of sports and theres no denying that, peyton is one of the greatest players to ever play this game, but yes if brady was in peytons shoes and on this team he would have had pretty much the same success.

I still dislike Brady though

You do know that Peyton sat out part or most of the last 2 games in his 49 TD season though..

[DILLIGAFER]

I will leave this post and argument with this thought. Brady himself called Manning the greatest. You can argue all you want that he was just being nice. But I'm here to tell you, it was much more than that.

[Moose Of Woe]

If the colts had Matt Cassell this year you'd be doing just fine

Good one.

[WSO]

Look I'm pretty sure Smitto is either a closet Pats fan or trolling, all your points have been debunked.

Manning and Brady are both great, the two best to ever play IMO. I wouldn't put either ahead of the other right now as they are still playing out their careers. Let them play.

Maybe a mod can close this thread as we have had 2959025902533 Brady/Manning threads dating back to 2007 on the old forums (when I joined)

[UMLBB10]

We would not be doing "fine" with Cassel lol. Patriots have a great system and just need a system QB to look great...The colts on the other hand are built around one player, PM and with Matt Cassel we may be 1-5...It's hard to even say he'd help win us a game. Curtis Painter is not the only reason we are losing...

the only other conclusion is that guys like Dallas Clark, Reggie Wayne, Jeff Saturday, and Joe Addai are not as good as colt fans like to think they are. they are simply paper tigers hiding behind manning

[Xfiles]

Love the Patriots fans rushing to the defense of Tommy B no matter how inconclusive their argument is......if the proof is in the pudding, then its as simple as this, Last year, with essentially the same roster and way MORE injuries, this team won the division, and was in position to win a playoff game(if not for special teams error) and this year, same roster, 0-6.

Puulllease pats fans, let it go. I know most of your rear ends are hurting with the red sox epic choke and all, but be serious. And if we had matt cassell, what in god's name would that change??

[UMLBB10]

if the proof is in the pudding, then its as simple as this, Last year, with essentially the same roster and way MORE injuries, this team won the division, and was in position to win a playoff game(if not for special teams error) and this year, same roster, 0-6.

the only thing that is proven here is the colts did not have an able qb on their roster beyond manning. put painter on the Pats and we're 2-4

[GoPats]

Either way Peyton is still the MVP of the decade :tears:

And I would not argue with that... it would be a pretty solid case for the league's only four-time MVP.

[GoPats]

Love the Patriots fans rushing to the defense of Tommy B no matter how inconclusive their argument is......if the proof is in the pudding, then its as simple as this, Last year, with essentially the same roster and way MORE injuries, this team won the division, and was in position to win a playoff game(if not for special teams error) and this year, same roster, 0-6.

Puulllease pats fans, let it go. I know most of your rear ends are hurting with the red sox epic choke and all, but be serious. And if we had matt cassell, what in god's name would that change??

Well it is titled as "PM vs TB," in case you didn't notice.

Are you reading responses or are you too fired up to think?

The fact that the Patriots went 11-5 in 2008 without Brady and the fact that the Colts are currently win-less without Manning means ab-so-lute-ly nothing in this discussion.

Different season.

Different rosters.

Different teams.

Different coaches.

If Manning and Brady had the same exact team around them, playing the same schedule, with the same coaching staff, then it's relevant. But how the 2008 Patriots did without Brady versus how the 2011 Colts are doing without Manning is - from virtually every possible angle - a completely meaningless comparison.

Like I said before, you or anyone else could come up with 100 different reasons to say Manning is better. Comparing '08 and this year is just not one of them.

[scorptile]

you seem to be forgetting that brady had really great defenses to keep him in games and a clutch kicker. tow things peyton never had in a consistent basis

dont forget a video camera to help know what the other team is doing ;)