The larger question

[oldunclemark]

Jim Irsay's comments about Peyton Manning's year this week speak to a larger issue which is more difficult to address

The suggestion: By Irsay and in what Chuck Pagano and Pep Hamilton have done...

...is that the Peyton Manning style of pass-first offense is the INCORRRECT way of playing the game..

That ball control and strong defense are better AND MORE CORRECT (and its important that you address that last point) than up-tempo no huddle pass first offense and a small,fast pass defense built to play deep and prevent the quick response, Tony Dungy's Tampa-2

..and it speaks to character whether you whisper it, admit it or not..

So many NFL players, fans and commenters see stopping the run as tough, physical and REAL football

..

..while passing and no-huddle attacks are seen as finesse, less phyiscal..or sissy-ball (wuss-ball, as some here have called it) no matter how many rules have been changed o promote passing

What do you really think?

1. Are we playing real, championship-STYLE (not the won-loss record, the style)football now?

2. Does Peyton Manning play football the wrong way to win ultimate titles?

3. Were we winners as I thought or weren't we really losers when Manning was here?

4. Did Irsay let Manning go, in small part, because he didnt like his style of play.

5. Do teams that win during the regular season but lose consistenty in the post-season simply lack character. No guts. No glory?

[ColtsHoosiersBB]

The Steelers won 7 titles with this style of football so yeah.

[oldunclemark]

The Steelers won 7 titles with this style of football so yeah.

The Steelers have not won seven titles in this era of football...they have 2..which is one more than indy.

Again, The question is larger than that.

[HungarianColtsFan]

Jim Irsay's comments about Peyton Manning's year this week speak to a larger issue which is more difficult to address

The suggestion: By Irsay and in what Chuck Pagano and Pep Hamilton have done...

...is that the Peyton Manning style of pass-first offense is the INCORRRECT way of playing the game..

That ball control and strong defense are better AND MORE CORRECT (and its important that you address that last point) than up-tempo no huddle pass first offense and a small,fast pass defense built to play deep and prevent the quick response, Tony Dungy's Tampa-2

..and it speaks to character whether you whisper it, admit it or not..

So many NFL players, fans and commenters see stopping the run as tough, physical and REAL football

..

..while passing and no-huddle attacks are seen as finesse, less phyiscal..or sissy-ball (wuss-ball, as some here have called it) no matter how many rules have been changed o promote passing

What do you really think?

1. Are we playing real, championship-STYLE (not the won-loss record, the style)football now?

2. Does Peyton Manning play football the wrong way to win ultimate titles?

3. Were we winners as I thought or weren't we really losers when Manning was here?

4. Did Irsay let Manning go, in small part, because he didnt like his style of play.

5. Do teams that win during the regular season but lose consistenty in the post-season simply lack character. No guts. No glory?

 

He does play a very high level. Winning only 1 title with Colts can be accounted to wrong management approach. With better team around him (I mean every part takes it share in winning games, not PM alone) he had won more than 1.

Irsay wanted to change approach how to win more rings, and also wanted to approve Peyton cahnce to win an other ring. Peyton has only 2-3 more years as NFL QB, and Colts need about 3 more years to rebuild. Letting Peyton go was the best decision for both party. Both Irsay and Manning knew that. I bet making this step was tougher for Irsay than Manning.

[Gramz]

Everyone has an Agenda,   don't they...????

 

My agenda is to thoroughly Enjoy every second of one of the Most Exciting Games I've ever attended.

 

No speculations,  no snarky comments, No " I told-you-so's"     

 

I'm just going to enjoy it for what it's worth,  and to me,  it's worth a lot....

 

You all can view it in your own way.

 

 

Sorry, this response is in the wrong thread...    oh well.  

 

as to your question,  You play to win,   whatever works.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Gramz

[SOMDColtsfan]

IMO, Irsay is right. The Colts didn't even win it all in `06 being "pass happy". They played lights out defense and had the ability to run the ball at will during the playoffs. I don't think we were "losers" though in that era. Every playoff loss was different with different circumstances

[Nadine]

Everyone has an Agenda,   don't they...????

 

My agenda is to thoroughly Enjoy every second of one of the Most Exciting Games I've ever attended.

 

No speculations,  no snarky comments, No " I told-you-so's"     

 

I'm just going to enjoy it for what it's worth,  and to me,  it's worth a lot....

 

You all can view it in your own way.

 

 

Sorry, this response is in the wrong thread...    oh well.  

 

as to your question,  You play to win,   whatever works.

I would like to clone you!

[Nadine]

He does play a very high level. Winning only 1 title with Colts can be accounted to wrong management approach. With better team around him (I mean every part takes it share in winning games, not PM alone) he had won more than 1.

Irsay wanted to change approach how to win more rings, and also wanted to approve Peyton cahnce to win an other ring. Peyton has only 2-3 more years as NFL QB, and Colts need about 3 more years to rebuild. Letting Peyton go was the best decision for both party. Both Irsay and Manning knew that. I bet making this step was tougher for Irsay than Manning.

 

And we both are living happily ever after.  

[Gramz]

I would like to clone you!

 I think that's the first time I've ever heard that one  

[Nadine]

 I think that's the first time I've ever heard that one  

 

WE need loud and proud! And army of Gramz!

[ColtsHoosiersBB]

The Steelers have not won seven titles in this era of football...they have 2..which is one more than indy.

Again, The question is larger than that.

They won multiple titles with a subpar QB in Terry Bradshaw with a running game and a strong defense so I stand by my quote. Trent Dilfer won a title with this blueprint.

[BrentMc11]

Denver at Indianapolis.

 

The return of maybe the best QB ever, and a great young talent only in his second year with a 15-7 record!!!

 

This is going to be one of the most watched games for a reason....Manning returns.

 

We can argue styles of football.  We can argue whether Irsay is saying too much before the game....Incorrect vs. Correct football.  NO WAY.  Different styles have one and lost.....even the Steelers old smash mouth style as mentioned above.

 

I am looking forward to an exciting football game win or lose.....Go Colts!!              !!

 

BTW....so surprised nobody wants to clone ME!!  

[oldunclemark]

IMO, Irsay is right. The Colts didn't even win it all in `06 being "pass happy". They played lights out defense and had the ability to run the ball at will during the playoffs. I don't think we were "losers" though in that era. Every playoff loss was different with different circumstances

Not factually true.....SOMD.

Manning threw for 350 in the AFC title game against NE....we didn't win running the ball and our defense was shredded..

Are we (the Colts) playing football the RIGHT WAY now?

[Ja'Crispy]

Everyone has an Agenda,   don't they...????

 

My agenda is to thoroughly Enjoy every second of one of the Most Exciting Games I've ever attended.

 

No speculations,  no snarky comments, No " I told-you-so's"     

 

I'm just going to enjoy it for what it's worth,  and to me,  it's worth a lot....

 

You all can view it in your own way.

 

 

Sorry, this response is in the wrong thread...    oh well.  

 

as to your question,  You play to win,   whatever works.

 

Obligatory Herm Edwards

[ReMeDy]

1. Are we playing real, championship-STYLE (not the won-loss record, the style)football now?

^ We're playing the style of football that wins playoff games, which is more than I can say for our older style. In playoffs, everyone's adrenaline, nerves, and emotion are at an all-time high, especially in the Super Bowl, which caters more towards emotional positions, like defense. This is what the Colts of old lacked.

 

2. Does Peyton Manning play football the wrong way to win ultimate titles?

^ Peyton plays excellent football. He has proven you do not need to be a mobile QB to win football games, even today.

 

3. Were we winners as I thought or weren't we really losers when Manning was here?

^ Manning is not the cause of the majority of our loses. It was either from bad coaching (*cough* Caldwell), bad GM'ing, and bad philosophies. For all intents, Manning did the best with what he had.

 

4. Did Irsay let Manning go, in small part, because he didn't like his style of play.

^ Nah, it was because Manning said Irsay would be crazy not to take Luck and Luck is a once in a lifetime QB. Irsay gave Manning a lot of input in this decision. Irsay even drove Manning to the airport. Irsay was even a bit emotional for the cameras at that time. If Irsay truly didn't like Manning, he would have worn it more on his sleeve.

 

5. Do teams that win during the regular season but lose consistently in the post-season simply lack character?

^ They give it their best effort. No one likes to lose. They had character, but it doesn't measure up to a team with proper playoff caliber tendencies.

[SOMDColtsfan]

Not factually true.....SOMD.

Manning threw for 350 in the AFC title game against NE....we didn't win running the ball and our defense was shredded..

Are we (the Colts) playing football the RIGHT WAY now?

In 2006, the Colts held the Chiefs Larry Johnson to 32 yds rushing while Joe Addai had 122 yds rushing in the 1st round. Then they held the Ravens to 85 yds rushing and was a grind it out type of game. Asante Samuels first half pick 6 on Peyton in the AFC championship game forced the Colts to go toe to toe with the Patriots. That game was a hurdle for the Colts to overcome as we all know. I honestly believe this is the type of football that ultimately wins championships. A good 4 minute offense and a D that can get off the field, something I`m not sure we have yet but are trending that way, I hope! Good thread Unks!  

[braveheartcolt]

Hippo or rhino?

[Jason_]

They won multiple titles with a subpar QB in Terry Bradshaw with a running game and a strong defense so I stand by my quote. Trent Dilfer won a title with this blueprint.

 

Brad Johnson did as well.

[Superman]

I don't see why this is so hard for people to understand. I don't mean to be condescending to the OP or anyone else, but I think the point of Irsay's comments is being missed, as is the point of focus that Grigson, Pagano and Irsay have stated many times already.

 

There's nothing wrong with being a good passing team, and the Colts aren't trying to be a "run first" team instead of a "pass first" team. They don't want to be an "anything first" team. They want the offense to be balanced. When you have to run to convert or to finish games, they want to be able to run it effectively. They want to have a stout defense that can limit the opponent's offense, especially against the run, so that other teams can't pound it down our throats (like SD did Monday night). 

 

Irsay didn't say he doesn't want to have a good passing team. He said he wants to have a team that is balanced, offensively, defensively, and on special teams. 

[Jason_]

I don't see why this is so hard for people to understand. I don't mean to be condescending to the OP or anyone else, but I think the point of Irsay's comments is being missed, as is the point of focus that Grigson, Pagano and Irsay have stated many times already.

 

There's nothing wrong with being a good passing team, and the Colts aren't trying to be a "run first" team instead of a "pass first" team. They don't want to be an "anything first" team. They want the offense to be balanced. When you have to run to convert or to finish games, they want to be able to run it effectively. They want to have a stout defense that can limit the opponent's offense, especially against the run, so that other teams can't pound it down our throats (like SD did Monday night). 

 

Irsay didn't say he doesn't want to have a good passing team. He said he wants to have a team that is balanced, offensively, defensively, and on special teams. 

 

Agreed all around.  With a QB like Luck and after seeing what he was able to do last year, we pretty much already know that we can compete in a shoot-out type game.  However, we don't want to HAVE to play that type of game in order to win all the time.  We want to also be able to run the ball effectively independent of the passing game, and we want a defense that can play with any team regardless of the score.  It's all about not putting everything on the shoulders of one player.

 

But what do I know?  Apparently Luck is going to have to throw the ball 80 times per game and hit 5K yards passing every year in order for us to have a chance.  There is no other way. 

[MR. Blueblood]

1. Are we playing real, championship-STYLE (not the won-loss record, the style)football now?

2. Does Peyton Manning play football the wrong way to win ultimate titles?

3. Were we winners as I thought or weren't we really losers when Manning was here?

4. Did Irsay let Manning go, in small part, because he didnt like his style of play.

5. Do teams that win during the regular season but lose consistenty in the post-season simply lack character. No guts. No glory?

1.  IMO, we are attempting to play real, championship-STYLE football now.  We still don't have the pieces we need, but are trending in the right direction.  The O-line, especially the C and RG needs to be addressed, and the Defense still needs some pieces to be a legitimate threat.

 

2.  Peyton Manning plays football the right way to win titles.  QB play, while being extremely important, isn't the end all be all to win a championship though.  Believe it or not it does take the other 52 guys plus the coaching staff to make it happen.  A lot of the years in Indy we were lacking in areas that limited the amount of times we we able to win.

 

3.  Strictly on wins and losses, we were winners while Manning was here.  You can't have the most wins in a decade in league history and still be considered a loser, IMO.  Did we fully live up to all of that success?  No.  One championship in 11 post season appearances isn't cutting the mustard.

 

4.  No, I don't think Manning's style of play had anything to do with it.  The serious salary cap issues + years of failed drafts + the need to purge this roster of over paid, under effective, and oft injured players + questions over Manning's health and salary + Luck's availability = his departure from Indy.

 

5.  I don't think it has much to do with character, guts, or glory.  It has everything to do with how well your team matches up against the other team you're playing.  In the playoffs every team is good/great or they wouldn't have made it there, so you have to bring your A game.  Being consistently good in all aspects of the game will give you the best odds of winning against any team, on any field, and in any conditions.  For how many years was Defense and Special Teams a liability for the Colts?  Too many to count.  

 

 

On a much different note, a lot has been said about Irsay's comments this week, and whether or not it was a shot at Manning.  I'm thinking this was started much along those lines, that's why I'm even bringing this up.  I don't feel his comments in any way were a shot at Manning, and more directed to the team as a whole.  A Patriots team with solid but not stellar numbers from Brady coupled with a good Defense (Spygate aside) wins 3 championships.  A Patriots team that has Brady putting up stellar numbers (Manning like) with a sub par Defense has won 0 championships (along with some 1 and dones in the playoffs.....ring a bell?)  A Steelers team with Big Ben putting up solid but not stellar numbers and a good Defense wins 2 championships, the Giants with Eli putting up solid not stellar numbers and a good Defense wins 2 championships.  The formula is there.  You have to have a good team in all facets of the game to win multiple championships, (health and getting hot at the right time doesn't hurt either).  In 2006, the Defense helped win that championship just as much as the Offense did.  It's not coincidence that both of them coming together got us to the top.  It's Irsay's goal for this team to come together on all sides of the ball more frequently and not just the one time they managed to do it in 06.

[Balzer40]

I like smash mouth football. IMO it's the way football should be played. It doesn't mean our style was wrong with Manning, but yes, I do see it as wussball instead of lining up and punching the other team in the face. I absolutely HATED being known as a "finesse" team. I heard other players and ex-players say the Colts were the least intimidating team in the NFL for yrs.. IMO thats half the battle, if the other team is somewhat intimidated by your style of play, then it's easier to win. 

 

Thats the reason why Baltimore and Pittsburgh have been so successful over the yrs. IMO. It's not that they have been great teams, but they had the reputation for teams that will punch you in the mouth when you played them. Teams knew they were in a real football game after they played those teams, because they got beat up and battered. For yrs. I dreamed of smashmouth football in Indy and now we got coaches and a GM that are turning us into that kind of team. IMO, we will eventually be able to wear teams down with toughness.