Manning's Best Core of Receivers Ever?

[John Dee]

MAC ...  what are you trying to accomplish?  

 

Denver has played a cup cake schedule ....  SO FAR. 

 

It is what it is.       Things WILL play out.

Actually - as I said - it isn't a large sample size at all.

 

Never the less, using points per game would have the Ravens at #3, Raiders #9. The Giants would drop to the bottom in this method. Yes they are giving up 30 points per game - out of proportion to their yards per game. Probably something to do with their offense scoring seven points in their last two games.

[MAC]

MAC ...  what are you trying to accomplish?  

 

Denver has played a cup cake schedule ....  SO FAR. 

 

It is what it is.       Things WILL play out.

Nothing in particular John, we're just having a conversation.

 

Obviously Denver has played an easy schedule - ignoring the fact that the Ravens are leading their division. I never suggested anything to the contrary. In general their schedule for the entire season isn't close to the hardest.

 

I was simply responding to your toungue-in-cheek effort to diminish Peyton's numbers erroneously by stating that's it's because they played lousy defenses. I pointed out that the defenses weren't that bad - it's more complicated than that. Peyton is going to put up big numbers per possession regardless of who he plays, it's the ineffectiveness of the opponents offense that's allowing the games to become blowouts.

 

I'm partially defending Peyton, partially complimenting the Broncos defense, partially defending the defenses of the Ravens/Raiders/Giants while lampooning their offenses, and partially discussing what it will take to beat them. I'm looking forward to all of the games that I listed.

[Goodtimes]

It has been said by a lot of people and it will keep Marvin from being a first ballot hall of famer.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Superman

[Superman]

It has been said by a lot of people and it will keep Marvin from being a first ballot hall of famer.

 

Stupidity has kept a lot of players from going in on the first ballot. That doesn't validate it.

[Goodtimes]

You will find many people who believe this whether you like it or not.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Superman

[Dustin]

It has been said by a lot of people and it will keep Marvin from being a first ballot hall of famer.

 

What will keep Marvin from being a first ballot HOF is a logjam at the WR position. 

[Goodtimes]

I won't argue you that but you well know what I said is a factor.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Superman

[Superman]

[Moose Of Woe]

Harrison alone was better than anyone currently on the Broncos. Top 5 easily, arguably top 3 WR to ever play in the NFL.

 

Wayne and D.Thomas are close enough to be a wash. I'd argue Thomas is more of a burner than Wayne is/was. Both have good hands and run routes very well.

 

Clark is a wash with Orange Julius.  Dallas could arguably block better, but Julius is built like a tank and does everything else just as well if not better. Orange Julius doesn't seem to get the dropsies like Dallas, but he's also been injured the past two years.

 

The Broncos currently have more weapons than the 2004 Colts. Including a durable slot receiver who just so happens to be the best of the past 20 years. Our top slot receivers over the years, Stokely and Collie,  were almost always injured. Not to mention our other decent receiver Gonzo almost never played, either.

 

Overall, it's pretty close with the receiving corps, but I have to give the edge to Denver by sheer volume of their personnel. Decker is really an added bonus when he plays well.

 

Receivers aside, the Colts had Edge running the ball which directly improved the passing game. The Broncos don't have such a running attack.

[John Dee]

Reggie Wayne ...  kids..  

 

the top of the TOP!!!

 

Marvin....      HOF?  No   Reggie?  Yes..

 

 

After watching BOTH for the entire duration of their careers...      Wayne is BY FAR the SUPERIOR WR.

 

Marv was just fast..   not a leader.    Not anything....

 

Reggie is a winner.

[John Dee]

Reggie W is a LEADER...

[jvan1973]

I won't argue you that but you well know what I said is a factor.

no factor what so ever... interesting signature btw

[jvan1973]

Reggie Wayne ... kids..

the top of the TOP!!!

Marvin.... HOF? No Reggie? Yes..

After watching BOTH for the entire duration of their careers... Wayne is BY FAR the SUPERIOR WR.

Marv was just fast.. not a leader. Not anything....

Reggie is a winner.

numbers would say otherwise. Reggie is great, but Marvin was a game changer

[Andy]

It's not a slap to the face to anyone.

 

With Welker, D Thomas, Decker, J Thomas, Caldwell and Tamme, they've created perhaps the best core in the last decade.

 

Add the fact that you have a great O-line, even without a top 3 LT, and you've got yourself one big problem on offense. 

[Manning1887]

Thomas and Decker are much bigger than Harrison and Wayne. Wes Welker is perhaps the best slot receiver of all time. Stokley was good, Welker is better. I would say Pollard and Clark were better than Thomas and Dressen.

 

The funny thing is that I read that Manning had gone up to Minnesota to work out Decker before the draft. He like Decker a lot and wanted the Colts to draft him, but we didn't have a WR need at the time with Wayne, Gonzo, and Collie. Too bad.

[jjcolts]

Man... I don't know.

 

Peyton to Marvin

Peyton to Reggie

 

Hall of Famers.

[tahuyaman]

No offense to past Colts, but the receiving corps,   not core,  currently  in Denver is the best Manning has ever had.

[RGIII]

The Broncos group right now is MILES more physically talented.  You've got three 6'5" receivers with wheels and a guy who is probably already the best slot receiver of all time.  None of them are as fast as Harrison or reliable as Wayne, IMO, but Thomas comes surprisingly close to the former despite his massive frame and Welker comes extremely close to the latter.  The sticking point in favor of the Colts group is that history has been written on them and the legacy left is awfully favorable to all of those guys whereas history is still being written on this squad.

 

I'm waiting until the end of the season to make a final verdict on who is better between the '04 Colts and this group but if what we've seen so far continues to be the trend (at the very least you know they'll keep it up against the Redskins in Denver ) then I don't see how you don't roll with the Broncos.

[bayone]

Not sure if it's a slap in the face, but they certainly don't have the body of work of the Colts receivers to compare with.  There's no doubt about that.

 

I'm pretty sure both Marvin and Reggie are going to be in the HoF.  Not sure about any of those Broncos.  Unless Peyton plays another ten years.

 

Dungy of course f=defended Colts & said otherwise , aas did someone else , forgot who , after Sundays game 

[Goodtimes]

They probably have a big game against Jacksonville. I think they are 25 point favorites.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Superman

[House]

No offense to past Colts, but the receiving corps, not core, currently in Denver is the best Manning has ever had.

Naw.

People confuse bigger with better.

[bayone]

Naw.

People confuse bigger with better.

 

 

Harrison got so free he never had to be that big, also his hands best there was, still remember in endzone fade pass  TD sideline spinning tip to himself and still caught in bounds both feet Vs Pats

 

only thing he b never did was in traffic try for more YAC, only if caught on the run in stride

[oldunclemark]

Molly Qerim of NFL Network calls the Broncos receivers the best set of receivers Peyton Manning has ever had. It sounds like a slap in the face to the Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark trio.

..anything Molly says or does is fine with me...

But lets wait until they've played 14 games together instead of four...

[oldunclemark]

Man... I don't know.

 

Peyton to Marvin

Peyton to Reggie

 

Hall of Famers.

Exactly ...JJ..

THis group has to do a lot more than whip up on four jamokes to be called the best of anything.

If they smoke up Dallas and KC and the Colts and New England on the road...then we're seeing historical things

[IndyTrav]

D.Thomas v Marvin....Obviously Marvin has the benefit of the career #s, but D.Thomas is bigger and stronger, and his 15.3 yards per catch last year is more than Marvin had at any point in time over his career. Only 3x in Marvins career did he have more yards than Thomas did last year..... 

 

Wayne v Decker......Again, Wayne has the benefit of career #'s, but Wayne has never had as many TDs as Decker had last year. 

 

Thomas v Clark....Again, benefit of #'s goes to Clark...But Clark played 11 seasons, and 4 of them he had more TDs than what Thomas does now, thru 4 games (Thomas is on pace for 72/948/16). 

 

Then the kicker is Welker. Who is obviously the best Slot WR of all time. 

 

 

Career obviously Colts WR dominate, however prime v prime of all things considered, its gotta be Den. 

[House]

D.Thomas v Marvin....Obviously Marvin has the benefit of the career #s, but D.Thomas is bigger and stronger, and his 15.3 yards per catch last year is more than Marvin had at any point in time over his career. Only 3x in Marvins career did he have more yards than Thomas did last year.....

Wayne v Decker......Again, Wayne has the benefit of career #'s, but Wayne has never had as many TDs as Decker had last year.

Thomas v Clark....Again, benefit of #'s goes to Clark...But Clark played 11 seasons, and 4 of them he had more TDs than what Thomas does now, thru 4 games (Thomas is on pace for 72/948/16).

Then the kicker is Welker. Who is obviously the best Slot WR of all time.

Career obviously Colts WR dominate, however prime v prime of all things considered, its gotta be Den.

Prime vs Prime. Still Colts.

The Career numbers for the guys you listed aren't an over inflation of stats based on longevity. It's career excellence. Playing at a high level for an extended period of time.

The best argument to make for Marvin and Thomas is that they offset. Just because they did it different way doesn't mean Thomas gets bonus points for being bigger than Marvin. Marvin was a freak in his own ways. Just like Thomas is physically.

Wayne over Decker and it's not even close.

Dallas over any TE Denver's got.

Welker obviously over Stokley, but it's not like Stokley was chop liver in his time with Peyton.

[Superman]

Prime vs Prime. Still Colts.

The Career numbers for the guys you listed aren't an over inflation of stats based on longevity. It's career excellence. Playing at a high level for an extended period of time.

The best argument to make for Marvin and Thomas is that they offset. Just because they did it different way doesn't mean Thomas gets bonus points for being bigger than Marvin. Marvin was a freak in his own ways. Just like Thomas is physically.

Wayne over Decker and it's not even close.

Dallas over any TE Denver's got.

Welker obviously over Stokley, but it's not like Stokley was chop liver in his time with Peyton.

 

None of Denver's receivers are in their prime. Outside of Welker; we've seen his prime, and it's well above Stokley's, in terms of production (and ability to stay healthy). 

 

But you can't compare Marvin and DT; DT is in his fourth year. Same for Decker and Wayne. Do you remember how much development Wayne still had to do in his fourth year? He had just started to actually look like he was worth a first round pick, and he still had a long way to go. Decker and Thomas both outperformed Wayne in their third seasons, and it's not even close. 

 

Same thing for Julius Thomas vs. Dallas Clark. I really, really liked Dallas, and I don't think he got enough credit around the league. And because his peak was kind of short compared to his predecessors and contemporaries (Witten, Gates, Gonzalez), and because there's been this new crop of tight ends since his peak (Finley, Gronkowski, Graham), no one really remembers how much of a monster he was. But it wasn't until his fifth year that he really took off. And as a rookie, Julius Thomas is on pace to outperform Clark's fifth year. 

 

Across the board, these Denver receivers are producing. It's a different league than it was back then, and Manning's pace right now is just unreal, but these guys are still young. They have a lot of improvement and refinement ahead of them. And neither of them have a veteran receiver to look up to, like Wayne did with Marvin. 

 

I'm not willing to say that they are "better." Marvin is a future HOFer, in my book. One of the best receivers of his generation, and a matchup problem for every corner in the league in his day. Shattered Rice's receptions record, and that's before the rules changes, and before there were any other threats on the field with him (Wayne wasn't a factor, Edge was hurt... it was just Marvin). Reggie is the consummate professional, and maybe he's not a surefire HOFer (yet), but any receiver in the league is a step behind him in terms of overall production longevity, technical skills, etc. I've already said how I feel about Clark.

 

But what I do think is that this current group of receivers is tougher to cover than any group Manning had in Indy. And that's because they are more physically gifted. DT has Marvin-like speed, and dwarfs him (Marvin made up for his size with technical skill; DT will never be the route-runner Marvin was). Decker is huge. Julius Thomas is much more athletic than Clark was. And Welker is built for the slot position. Like I said earlier, I think this group is virtually uncoverable. Imagine if these receivers start to hone their craft the way the Indy group did from 2003 on. 

[House]

None of Denver's receivers are in their prime. Outside of Welker; we've seen his prime, and it's well above Stokley's, in terms of production (and ability to stay healthy).

But you can't compare Marvin and DT; DT is in his fourth year. Same for Decker and Wayne. Do you remember how much development Wayne still had to do in his fourth year? He had just started to actually look like he was worth a first round pick, and he still had a long way to go. Decker and Thomas both outperformed Wayne in their third seasons, and it's not even close.

Same thing for Julius Thomas vs. Dallas Clark. I really, really liked Dallas, and I don't think he got enough credit around the league. And because his peak was kind of short compared to his predecessors and contemporaries (Witten, Gates, Gonzalez), and because there's been this new crop of tight ends since his peak (Finley, Gronkowski, Graham), no one really remembers how much of a monster he was. But it wasn't until his fifth year that he really took off. And as a rookie, Julius Thomas is on pace to outperform Clark's fifth year.

Across the board, these Denver receivers are producing. It's a different league than it was back then, and Manning's pace right now is just unreal, but these guys are still young. They have a lot of improvement and refinement ahead of them. And neither of them have a veteran receiver to look up to, like Wayne did with Marvin.

I'm not willing to say that they are "better." Marvin is a future HOFer, in my book. One of the best receivers of his generation, and a matchup problem for every corner in the league in his day. Shattered Rice's receptions record, and that's before the rules changes, and before there were any other threats on the field with him (Wayne wasn't a factor, Edge was hurt... it was just Marvin). Reggie is the consummate professional, and maybe he's not a surefire HOFer (yet), but any receiver in the league is a step behind him in terms of overall production longevity, technical skills, etc. I've already said how I feel about Clark.

But what I do think is that this current group of receivers is tougher to cover than any group Manning had in Indy. And that's because they are more physically gifted. DT has Marvin-like speed, and dwarfs him (Marvin made up for his size with technical skill; DT will never be the route-runner Marvin was). Decker is huge. Julius Thomas is much more athletic than Clark was. And Welker is built for the slot position. Like I said earlier, I think this group is virtually uncoverable. Imagine if these receivers start to hone their craft the way the Indy group did from 2003 on.

Obviously none of them are in their prime, but I was going off IndyTrav's comparison when he said Prime V Prime.

The only Prime I'm going off of is the best they've showed thus far because that's all we have on them. Because Reggie is past his peak, obviously, and Marvin washed out of the league.

Do his receivers now have more potential to be greater than his Indy WRs? That's an argument I could see. But presently are they superior to the '05 Colts? I don't see it from anyone but Thomas.

[-JJ-]

I would say no. Colts WRs did it year after year after year. That's a big deal.

[tahuyaman]

Naw.

People confuse bigger with better.

No, usually people believe better is .... well, better.

[House]

No, usually people believe better is .... well, better.

I haven't heard a single description of the Denver receivers that didn't include the adjective "bigger."

[Superman]

I haven't heard a single description of the Denver receivers that didn't include the adjective "bigger."

 

Why are we being dismissive of the advantages that come with size?

[IndyTrav]

Obviously none of them are in their prime, but I was going off IndyTrav's comparison when he said Prime V Prime.

The only Prime I'm going off of is the best they've showed thus far because that's all we have on them. Because Reggie is past his peak, obviously, and Marvin washed out of the league.

Do his receivers now have more potential to be greater than his Indy WRs? That's an argument I could see. But presently are they superior to the '05 Colts? I don't see it from anyone but Thomas.

How should we go about this? Lets compare Peytons 49TD year, and the WR....I'll put Colts WR best season in ()....With Broncos WR last yr and the pace they are on this year in ()...... 

 

Marvin- 86/1113/15 (143/1722/11)....DT-94/1434/10 (116/1572/16) 

Wayne- 77/1210/12 (104/1510/10)....Decker-85/1064/13 (96/1360/4)

Stokley- 68/1077/10 (Same)...Welker N/A....(104/1064/24)

Clark- 25/423/5 (100/1106/10)....Thomas N/A...(71/948/16)

 

HOLY COW! Look at the pace those Den. WR are on at this point in the season...Every single one of them has a year projected to be arguably better than the best years our Colts WR ever had, and they are all doing it at the same time, where as the Colts did it in different years. Its like a video game. 

[House]

Why are we being dismissive of the advantages that come with size?

I don't feel like I am. But that reason alone isn't why I would ultimately feel Thomas and Decker are better than Reggie and Marvin.

Size is obviously a big part of their games, but it isn't the only/best way. Some guys do it big and physical. Others with technique. Others with route running, hands, and vision. Some just outsmart/out think coverages.

So I just personally don't subscribe that either of those two get the nod as better on just size alone. Just my opinion however.

[House]

How should we go about this? Lets compare Peytons 49TD year, and the WR....I'll put Colts WR best season in ()....With Broncos WR last yr and the pace they are on this year in ()......

Marvin- 86/1113/15 (143/1722/11)....DT-94/1434/10 (116/1572/16)

Wayne- 77/1210/12 (104/1510/10)....Decker-85/1064/13 (96/1360/4)

Stokley- 68/1077/10 (Same)...Welker N/A....(104/1064/24)

Clark- 25/423/5 (100/1106/10)....Thomas N/A...(71/948/16)

HOLY COW! Look at the pace those Den. WR are on at this point in the season...Every single one of them has a year projected to be arguably better than the best years our Colts WR ever had, and they are all doing it at the same time, where as the Colts did it in different years. Its like a video game.

If you want to go off everyone's best years than Randy Moss is the GOAT.

This Denver team is unbelievable right now for a ton of different factors, but will those stats come back to earth a tad as the season wears on? I think so. Especially if they start resting starters. That's not taking anything away from their great start, but if they maintained this level they're going undefeated, and that would shock me without saying.

Speaking in terms of careers though? I can't see Decker ever being considered as good as Reggie. Just my opinion. It's not a sprint it's a marathon, and Reggie has been consistently excellent for a long time.

Thomas has a great shot at being one of the best because he's got all the tools. Even the best WRs can't do it all if they have no one of skill throwing to them. So I will be interested how he moves forward post Peyton. Hopefully he doesn't become like a Fitzgerald. Killing himself for his team, but not having enough help.

But if you told me one offense, one game, for my life? I'm taking the '05 Colts every time.

Not trying to change your mind or tell you your wrong. Just my take.

[GoPats]

Pretty premature to say that Thomas-Decker-Welker > Harrison-Wayne-Stokes (or whoever you're going to insert there). The talent is there, and what's kind of perfect for Denver is that these guys all seem to have varied, complementing skill sets. It's truly a "pick your poison" type of situation. And there's no Edgerrin James on the Broncos, not by a long shot. 

 

Let's give it a year or two and then make the call! 

[John Dee]

There is not ONE scenario that would EVER have DT and Decker superior to MH and Reg W.

 

Not one.

 

Just envision Marv and Reggie playing together under TODAY'S NFL rules?   You forget the BIG rule change happened after the 03 AFCCG when NE simply mugged or WR's right off the line snap after snap.

 

That is why it is impossible to compare era's.      What would DT and Decker do in the 2003 NFL?  Different game, and the Colts excelled at it....

I don't feel like I am. But that reason alone isn't why I would ultimately feel Thomas and Decker are better than Reggie and Marvin.

Size is obviously a big part of their games, but it isn't the only/best way. Some guys do it big and physical. Others with technique. Others with route running, hands, and vision. Some just outsmart/out think coverages.

So I just personally don't subscribe that either of those two get the nod as better on just size alone. Just my opinion however.

[John Dee]

Wouldn't it be just lovely if Denver could play the Giants, Eagles, and Raiders every week?

 

But they don't...

 

How should we go about this? Lets compare Peytons 49TD year, and the WR....I'll put Colts WR best season in ()....With Broncos WR last yr and the pace they are on this year in ()...... 

 

Marvin- 86/1113/15 (143/1722/11)....DT-94/1434/10 (116/1572/16) 

Wayne- 77/1210/12 (104/1510/10)....Decker-85/1064/13 (96/1360/4)

Stokley- 68/1077/10 (Same)...Welker N/A....(104/1064/24)

Clark- 25/423/5 (100/1106/10)....Thomas N/A...(71/948/16)

 

HOLY COW! Look at the pace those Den. WR are on at this point in the season...Every single one of them has a year projected to be arguably better than the best years our Colts WR ever had, and they are all doing it at the same time, where as the Colts did it in different years. Its like a video game. 

[Dustin]

How should we go about this? Lets compare Peytons 49TD year, and the WR....I'll put Colts WR best season in ()....With Broncos WR last yr and the pace they are on this year in ()...... 

 

Marvin- 86/1113/15 (143/1722/11)....DT-94/1434/10 (116/1572/16) 

Wayne- 77/1210/12 (104/1510/10)....Decker-85/1064/13 (96/1360/4)

Stokley- 68/1077/10 (Same)...Welker N/A....(104/1064/24)

Clark- 25/423/5 (100/1106/10)....Thomas N/A...(71/948/16)

 

HOLY COW! Look at the pace those Den. WR are on at this point in the season...Every single one of them has a year projected to be arguably better than the best years our Colts WR ever had, and they are all doing it at the same time, where as the Colts did it in different years. Its like a video game. 

 

Man you really love volume stats. But you're ignoring efficiency in favor of volume. I'm only counting WRs here as Clark didn't play a huge role in the 2004 season.

 

YPT: Yards per target.

 

Thomas 10.3 YPT....... Marvin 8 YPT

 

Decker 9.7 YPT........ Wayne 10.5 YPT

 

Welker 7.4 YPT............ Stokely 10.5 YPT 

 

The only clear winner for the Broncos is Demaryius Thomas and that's only because of his ridiculous catch rate due to a bunch of WR screens.

 

With the addition of Orange Julius then you could make an argument that he has the deepest receiving core he's ever had. But 2004 Colts win in terms of all-around efficiency by their top 3.

[oldunclemark]

We cant judge the present Denver receivers in their prime because we

don't know what Decker and Thomas and Thomas' prime is...

Its not a judgement that can be made after 4 games