Where's Wald(o)en?

[SteelCityColt]

 

Werner can do all of this. He doesn't play with enough discipline on run plays, but that will come with time. He's bigger and stronger than Walden, so he might wind up being much better at setting the edge than Walden is. I hope so, because coupled with his ability as a pass rusher, this would make Werner a very good edge defender. But right now, Walden does this part of the job better.

 

Edit - to save repetition

 

Good work there, and thank you for the breakdown. 

 

Question to check my understanding of Walden's role and setting the edge. One play in the first half, I think it was Gore's first big run to the outside I think Walden actually managed to drive blocker backwards but this opened up the outside break for Gore: 

 

 

Image stolen from a B/R write up to illustrate. Does this mean then he's not looking to "beat" his man when it's a run play, more hold a containing position so if the run does break to the outside he's in a position to make a play, but really to try and force it back inside to our better run stoppers and also allow the ILBs to get in on the play?

[SteelCityColt]

i think at this point we should start Cam Johnson and see what he can do....cuz DHB...Toler has been better then him

 

You realise that Johnson and Walden play different "roles" in this D right? 

[Gavin]

You realise that Johnson and Walden play different "roles" in this D right? 

Different sides of the ball entirely in DHB's case

[lollygagger8]

 

Here's an example of a solid run contain by Walden. Gore for 3 yards in the second quarter.

 

 

To me, this is setting the edge. Some might want Walden to explode through the fullback and take down the ball carrier for a loss. But that's not realistic. He's not the Kool-Aid man busting through a brick wall. He's taking on tight ends, fullbacks, and tackles, and his job is to make it difficult for the ball carrier to get to the outside. And for the most part, he does a pretty good job of that. He's not going to have a bunch of tackles, and he isn't a good pass rusher, so forget about him setting the world on fire with sacks or pressures. If you're not specifically watching for him, you might not even notice him, which leads to thread titles like this one. But this right here is pretty much what he's good for.

 

I compare him to Jarrett Johnson. Not an outstanding player in any way, but he's technically solid when it comes to containing outside runs. Johnson is a little bitter of a pass rusher, but not by much. After several years in Baltimore, including playing 2011 under Chuck Pagano as coordinator, Johnson went to play for John Pagano in San Diego. The Chargers gave him four years, $19m, with $10m guaranteed. We gave Walden four years, $16m, with $4m guaranteed. A similar contract for a player with similar attributes, playing in a similar system. That's why I scoff at the notion that Walden is grossly overpaid. Maybe we could have signed someone to play his role for less, but he's a decent edge guy who can drop into coverage against tight ends and backs, and we can stick him at the Sam spot, rather than Mathis. 

 

Werner can do all of this. He doesn't play with enough discipline on run plays, but that will come with time. He's bigger and stronger than Walden, so he might wind up being much better at setting the edge than Walden is. I hope so, because coupled with his ability as a pass rusher, this would make Werner a very good edge defender. But right now, Walden does this part of the job better.

 

I didn't quote the whole post because that sucks trying to scroll down forever but...

 

Thank you for the break down....that was good stuff. When Walden actually sets the edge he does pretty well. Sometimes though he overpowers his man and runs him up field leaving huge running lanes much like Freeney did. I also agree he needs to have better vision and disengage his blocks instead of concentrating on just his one assignment. If he did that, he would be effective a lot more of the time. 

 

And just for shiggles......

[Superman]

Good work there, and thank you for the breakdown. 

 

Question to check my understanding of Walden's role and setting the edge. One play in the first half, I think it was Gore's first big run to the outside I think Walden actually managed to drive blocker backwards but this opened up the outside break for Gore: 

 

 

Image stolen from a B/R write up to illustrate. Does this mean then he's not looking to "beat" his man when it's a run play, more hold a containing position so if the run does break to the outside he's in a position to make a play, but really to try and force it back inside to our better run stoppers and also allow the ILBs to get in on the play?

 

Yeah, that's the first breakdown I did. It's kind of a two-edged sword, and that play isn't a good way to illustrate either the advantages or the disadvantages of getting into the backfield like that. Because the Niners had three blockers for one defender there, Walden would have had to push his man back along the absolute perfect angle to really disrupt the run. And in doing so, he'd have been taking on three blockers at once and redirecting the back. That's a pretty tall order. The play was a loss for the Colts no matter what Walden did, I think.

 

However, ideally, you want the defender to extend the wall of the defensive line out further toward the sideline, forcing the ball carrier to a) stay horizontal for as long as possible, or b) turn up the middle into the rest of the defense. Because Walden got so far into the backfield, he was no long a part of the wall, and Gore had a lane to run through. Worse than that, he still had two blockers to follow through that lane.

 

If it's an inside run, the blocker is going to try to seal the backer to the outside to help create a lane. That's basically what happened in this play, but not because the blocker did anything well. It's because Walden came too quickly and too far upfield. When the blocker is trying to create a lane to the inside, Walden's job should be to occupy the blocker and keep the outside contained (nothing worse than stopping the inside run but letting the back bounce to the outside for a big gain), but then to get off the block and disrupt the ball carrier. But the priority is containment.

[SteelCityColt]

Yeah, that's the first breakdown I did. It's kind of a two-edged sword, and that play isn't a good way to illustrate either the advantages or the disadvantages of getting into the backfield like that. Because the Niners had three blockers for one defender there, Walden would have had to push his man back along the absolute perfect angle to really disrupt the run. And in doing so, he'd have been taking on three blockers at once and redirecting the back. That's a pretty tall order. The play was a loss for the Colts no matter what Walden did, I think.

 

However, ideally, you want the defender to extend the wall of the defensive line out further toward the sideline, forcing the ball carrier to a) stay horizontal for as long as possible, or b) turn up the middle into the rest of the defense. Because Walden got so far into the backfield, he was no long a part of the wall, and Gore had a lane to run through. Worse than that, he still had two blockers to follow through that lane.

 

If it's an inside run, the blocker is going to try to seal the backer to the outside to help create a lane. That's basically what happened in this play, but not because the blocker did anything well. It's because Walden came too quickly and too far upfield. When the blocker is trying to create a lane to the inside, Walden's job should be to occupy the blocker and keep the outside contained (nothing worse than stopping the inside run but letting the back bounce to the outside for a big gain), but then to get off the block and disrupt the ball carrier. But the priority is containment.

Thank you for humouring my ignorance, it does some people don't understand he's not going to be a highlight reel player playing this reel as you will only notice when he's messed up not when he's doing his job.

I agree too that Werner being forced into learning the Walden role might be better for his overall prospects. I do think he can become a very good player of he applies himself, in the Suggs type of mould? Fingers crossed

[chrisfarley]

Just to give some feedback, when you're analyzing a Sam backer on a draw play, things are going to be slanted against him. He will often read the snap and determine whether he comes ahead to defend the run or drops into coverage. The draw is designed to get him out of position.

 

He didn't play it well. This is the play I had in mind when I said he didn't have a good game. But any given draw play in any given game is going to be the Sam backer's worst film, unless he's just an outstanding playmaker. And while I defend his merits, Walden is NOT an outstanding playmaker.

Pagano knows defense really well, I'm trying to remember who the Raven's (Under Pagano defense) had at Walden's same position?? anyone help with that?  But if Pagano compares Walden to his previous players or just evaluates him in general, which I'm sure he has ad-nauseum, he is going to keep a close eye on him or remove him from action.

[Superman]

Pagano knows defense really well, I'm trying to remember who the Raven's (Under Pagano defense) had at Walden's same position?? anyone help with that?  But if Pagano compares Walden to his previous players or just evaluates him in general, which I'm sure he has ad-nauseum, he is going to keep a close eye on him or remove him from action.

 

Jarrett Johnson. That's why I keep bringing him up.

[chrisfarley]

Jarrett Johnson. That's why I keep bringing him up.

ok, thanks -- gotcha.  i'll go back and re-scan your posts

[MacDee1975]

I'd venture to guess that 95% of you didn't even know what "setting the edge" even meant before we signed Walden.

 

Now you are all experts on the concept.

[Superman]

I'd venture to guess that 95% of you didn't even know what "setting the edge" even meant before we signed Walden.

 

Now you are all experts on the concept.

 

How your post made me feel:

 

 

(Except, not really.)

[BrentMc11]

I'd venture to guess that 95% of you didn't even know what "setting the edge" even meant before we signed Walden.

 

Now you are all experts on the concept.

 

[House]

I'd venture to guess that 95% of you didn't even know what "setting the edge" even meant before we signed Walden.

Now you are all experts on the concept.

I'd venture to guess that 100% of that statistic is imaginary.

[MacDee1975]

I'd venture to guess that 100% of that statistic is imaginary.

 

I'd venture to guess you were one of the 95% I was referring to.

[House]

I'd venture to guess you were one of the 95% I was referring to.

The 95% you made up you mean.

By all means though, give that search feature a whirl and see how many times I've mentioned "setting the edge" or Walden himself for that matter.

I'll wait.

[MacDee1975]

The 95% you made up you mean.

By all means though, give that search feature a whirl and see how many times I've mentioned "setting the edge" or Walden himself for that matter.

I'll wait.

 

With each overdefensive response of yours, you are making it very obvious that indeed you are in that 95%.

 

As far as me doing a search on you:  not interested.  Do your own homework on yourself if you want to prove you are in the 5%.

[House]

With each overdefensive response of yours, you are making it very obvious that indeed you are in that 95%.

As far as me doing a search on you: not interested. Do your own homework on yourself if you want to prove you are in the 5%.

^Wants to call out people for opinions they've never made. Doesn't want to verify if talking out of butt.

Your an odd duck. Especially considering your making a generalization based on nothing, since I know for a fact I've said little to nothing about Walden, because I have no strong opinions about the guy either way. Because I don't need to do "homework" on my own posts. I know what I've said and thought. The kicker is you don't, yet still get some goofed up impression that I'm a Walden apologist. An impression, which I'll remind you again, you conjured up based on no posts by me.

Basically just admiting you know nothing about my personal thoughts on "setting the edge" or Walden, but you still felt the need to be "clever" and group me in your imaginary 95% .

[lollygagger8]

I'd venture to guess that 95% of you didn't even know what "setting the edge" even meant before we signed Walden.

 

Now you are all experts on the concept.

[MacDee1975]

^Wants to call out people for opinions they've never made. Doesn't want to verify if talking out of butt.

Your an odd duck. Especially considering your making a generalization based on nothing, since I know for a fact I've said little to nothing about Walden, because I have no strong opinions about the guy either way. Because I don't need to do "homework" on my own posts. I know what I've said and thought. The kicker is you don't, yet still get some goofed up impression that I'm a Walden apologist. An impression, which I'll remind you again, you conjured up based on no posts by me.

Basically just admiting you know nothing about my personal thoughts on "setting the edge" or Walden, but you still felt the need to be "clever" and group me in your imaginary 95% .

 

Where your wrong here is that I have any kind of impression, opinion, thoughts etc regarding you specifically.  I don't.  I don't know or care or recollect who you are or anything you've ever said. 

 

Keeping that in mind, my statement still stands: most of the people on here who are claiming that Walden doesn't "set the edge" well had no clue what "setting the edge" even was until Walden was signed and they learned that was one of his purported strengths.

[House]

Where your wrong here is that I have any kind of impression, opinion, thoughts etc regarding you specifically. I don't. I don't know or care or recollect who you are or anything you've ever said.

Keeping that in mind, my statement still stands: most of the people on here who are claiming that Walden doesn't "set the edge" well had no clue what "setting the edge" even was until Walden was signed and they learned that was one of his purported strengths.

No. I'm correct in saying you have no idea who I am or what I think lol. In fact I said that explicitly in my last post.

However, this knowing nothing didn't prevent you from saying "your in the 95% I just made up", and "your being defensive." Which is where you lost any kind of point in whatever argument you were trying to make with you 95% quip, and just wanted to say something just to say it.

Not to mention me saying your stats were imaginary was just joking around in the first place .

[JoKeR]

I'd venture to guess that 95% of you didn't even know what "setting the edge" even meant before we signed Walden.

 

Now you are all experts on the concept.

The responses you've gotten are due to your tone, IMO.

[Coffeedrinker]

I'd venture to guess that 95% of you didn't even know what "setting the edge" even meant before we signed Walden.

 

Now you are all experts on the concept.

Well now, are we fortunate to have one of the 5% on the board who can wow and enlighten us with his football knowledge.  I know my football IQ went up 10 points just by replying to one of your posts.

 

Or maybe, as Colts fans, with the previous defensive system there was no need to discuss setting the edge because that was not a concern in the D.  The previous D wanted to fill gaps and force the runner towards the sidelines to give the CBs and safeties time to come off their zone coverage and make the stop. 

 

Additionally, it's not like setting the edge is a difficult concept to understand.  It may be tough for you to become an expert on a simple concept within 6 months but for most people of average intelligence, becoming an expert of a simple concept in 6 months is not very difficult.  Especially when we can see examples of doing it well and examples of doing it poorly.

[BigQandTheManiac]

You realise that Johnson and Walden play different "roles" in this D right? 

OH no i didn't no..thanks for the info

[BrentMc11]

The responses you've gotten are due to your tone, IMO.

[J@son]

You realise that Johnson and Walden play different "roles" in this D right? 

 

That's partially right in that right now, the depth chart lists Cam Johnson as the backup to Mathis and Werner as the backup to Walden.  However, it's also partially wrong because Pagano said the primary reason they preferred Johnson to Rayford was that Johnson's strength and skill set would make him a better edge defender against both the pass and run as compared to the taller, lankier Rayford who is best served as a specialist pass rusher off the edge because he's shown to be weak against the run.  So essentially, I think both Werner and Johnson are learning both OLB positions.

[JoKeR]

If I knew how to make that my avatar, I would.

[MacDee1975]

Well now, are we fortunate to have one of the 5% on the board who can wow and enlighten us with his football knowledge.  I know my football IQ went up 10 points just by replying to one of your posts.

 

Or maybe, as Colts fans, with the previous defensive system there was no need to discuss setting the edge because that was not a concern in the D.  The previous D wanted to fill gaps and force the runner towards the sidelines to give the CBs and safeties time to come off their zone coverage and make the stop. 

 

Additionally, it's not like setting the edge is a difficult concept to understand.  It may be tough for you to become an expert on a simple concept within 6 months but for most people of average intelligence, becoming an expert of a simple concept in 6 months is not very difficult.  Especially when we can see examples of doing it well and examples of doing it poorly.

 

You certainly pulled my wagon, coffeedrinker.  Every board needs a hero to step up to the bully on behalf of all the helpless wimps.  It's beautiful that you've taken on that role here.  Next time I interact with a bunch of anonymous posters on a public internet message board, i'm really going to think about the lessons you've taught me here today.

 

Congrats on being in the minority that already had an understanding of that concept;  that puts you ahead of about 95% of the people on this message board.

[MacDee1975]

No. I'm correct in saying you have no idea who I am or what I think lol. In fact I said that explicitly in my last post.

However, this knowing nothing didn't prevent you from saying "your in the 95% I just made up", and "your being defensive." Which is where you lost any kind of point in whatever argument you were trying to make with you 95% quip, and just wanted to say something just to say it.

Not to mention me saying your stats were imaginary was just joking around in the first place .

 

If i'm so wrong and none of this applies to you, why did you respond to me, and why are you continuing to respond to me?  Just ignore my post, junior.....it's not that difficult.  I've done it to you the entire time i've been on here, until you decided to engage me. 

[House]

If i'm so wrong and none of this applies to you, why did you respond to me, and why are you continuing to respond to me? Just ignore my post, junior.....it's not that difficult. I've done it to you the entire time i've been on here, until you decided to engage me.

your doing a great job ignoring me, JUNIOR!!! Grrrrrahhh I'm so tough because I call people junior online!!!!!

Seriously though I made a joke and you decided to be a clever little know nothing, and that's what spawned this discussion.

I just derive fun from people telling me what I think, when it's painfully obvious they have no clue what they speak .

[MacDee1975]

your doing a great job ignoring me, JUNIOR!!! Grrrrrahhh I'm so tough because I call people junior online!!!!!

Seriously though I made a joke and you decided to be a clever little know nothing, and that's what spawned this discussion.

I just derive fun from people telling me what I think, when it's painfully obvious they have no clue what they speak .

 

Well of course i'm not ignoring you now, professor.....you've engaged me, so naturally i'm responding.  That's how human interaction works.

 

I didn't realize your first response was a "joke", though.  That was a real knee slapper.

[House]

Well of course i'm not ignoring you now, professor.....you've engaged me, so naturally i'm responding. That's how human interaction works.

I didn't realize your first response was a "joke", though. That was a real knee slapper.

your really bent out of shape because I called you out for not knowing what you were talking about. Trust me I get the need to appear smart on the Internet, but sometimes it's best to bow out.

I was also unaware it was impossible to ignore someone who was engaging you. Clearly I've been mistaken in my life about what ignoring meant .

It's the Internet stop taking yourself so serious, and please stop playing the "your lesser than me by the language I use" card. Calling people "junior" and "professor", just makes you look silly.

But it's okay. Not everyone gets humor. I forgive you. We can be friends.

[Moose Of Woe]

Just here to say I love the thread name.

[SteelCityColt]

That's partially right in that right now, the depth chart lists Cam Johnson as the backup to Mathis and Werner as the backup to Walden.  However, it's also partially wrong because Pagano said the primary reason they preferred Johnson to Rayford was that Johnson's strength and skill set would make him a better edge defender against both the pass and run as compared to the taller, lankier Rayford who is best served as a specialist pass rusher off the edge because he's shown to be weak against the run.  So essentially, I think both Werner and Johnson are learning both OLB positions.

Agree, the ideal of course would to be have two studs at OLB who can mix and match to help disguise their assignments. I don't think we even have one capable of playing the "Joker" role as yet. Right now I see it as Matthis is the out and out pass rusher with Walden the Sam edge setter/stuffer. Werner in in passing downs but also to learn the Sam role to get him on the field more and hopefully come the Joker. Johnson is also for me just a out and put rusher but with more potential to have an all round game than Rayford had.

[SteelCityColt]

With each overdefensive response of yours, you are making it very obvious that indeed you are in that 95%.

As far as me doing a search on you: not interested. Do your own homework on yourself if you want to prove you are in the 5%.

Coming soon to a theatre near you, Jamie Johnson's new film, "The Five Percent"

We are the 95%, vive la revolution! Edge setting for all!

[SteelCityColt]

your really bent out of shape because I called you out for not knowing what you were talking about. Trust me I get the need to appear smart on the Internet, but sometimes it's best to bow out.

I was also unaware it was impossible to ignore someone who was engaging you. Clearly I've been mistaken in my life about what ignoring meant .

It's the Internet stop taking yourself so serious, and please stop playing the "your lesser than me by the language I use" card. Calling people "junior" and "professor", just makes you look silly.

But it's okay. Not everyone gets humor. I forgive you. We can be friends.

This could be the start of a beautiful friendship...

[House]

This could be the start of a beautiful friendship...

It feels hopeful. Gotta be honest.

[Superman]

Agree, the ideal of course would to be have two studs at OLB who can mix and match to help disguise their assignments. I don't think we even have one capable of playing the "Joker" role as yet. Right now I see it as Matthis is the out and out pass rusher with Walden the Sam edge setter/stuffer. Werner in in passing downs but also to learn the Sam role to get him on the field more and hopefully come the Joker. Johnson is also for me just a out and put rusher but with more potential to have an all round game than Rayford had.

The point of having the Rush backer on the weakside is to make it harder to double team him with the tight end. It would be great to have two interchangeable pass rushers, but it's important to have a disciplined guy on the strongside to contain the run. And good pass rushers aren't known for being disciplined against the run.

[SteelCityColt]

The point of having the Rush backer on the weakside is to make it harder to double team him with the tight end. It would be great to have two interchangeable pass rushers, but it's important to have a disciplined guy on the strongside to contain the run. And good pass rushers aren't known for being disciplined against the run.

A good point, I understand it's most unlikely to find two (or one even) players who would be good enough to chop and change like that but we can dream right. It's why I'm holding out Werner can build on his base to be at least solid and hopefully spectacular.

I'm still naive on the X's and O's, especially on D so 95% of what I say will be *ic, so thank you for correcting me. That's a non sarcastic thank you by the way! I appreciate the time toy put into your posts on here, even if others don't.

[MacDee1975]

your really bent out of shape because I called you out for not knowing what you were talking about. Trust me I get the need to appear smart on the Internet, but sometimes it's best to bow out.

I was also unaware it was impossible to ignore someone who was engaging you. Clearly I've been mistaken in my life about what ignoring meant .

It's the Internet stop taking yourself so serious, and please stop playing the "your lesser than me by the language I use" card. Calling people "junior" and "professor", just makes you look silly.

But it's okay. Not everyone gets humor. I forgive you. We can be friends.

 

It's easy to get under your skin, isn't it?

 

I bet people toy with you often.

[House]

It's easy to get under your skin, isn't it?

I bet people toy with you often.

Master manipulator. Pretends to be a fool, but in all actuality he's messing with you even when you show no real signs of annoyance. The talking out of butt was all an act. Of course!!

Criss Angel over here. Mind freak.