NFL Coaches On Stopping The Read Option

[dw49]

I'll post a link I found quoting John Madden on what he's hearing from NFL coaches on this. I find this not a surprising mind set but have serious doubts the NFL is going to allow this kind of defensive play on QB's. I think by rule , this would be no doubt be legal but I think the question will be if the NFL steps in and "tweaks" the interpretation on what are legal and illegal QB hits. 

 

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000233287/article/john-madden-nfl-defenses-will-attack-readoption-qbs

[BrentMc11]

This looks like something I wrote in Colts Forums and I got some heat from my friends and foes alike 

 

I TOTALLY agree with the Madden, Tomlin, Lewis....old school philosophy.  You have to let the quarterback and coaching staff of the opposing team know that you will hit them early and often.

 

Some teams may take an early 15 yard   to make a statement.  Do not be surprised.  Detroit is the PRIME example.  The Steelers too.  And remember the Bengals now have James Harrison.

 

The read and pistol are both deviations as I have stated of the old veer offense that rarely had passing (Sorry I am old )  We were taught from Day one to hit the QB and do not ask questions.(I ran lots of laps for missing said QB ) It has to happen as long as it is clean.  The officiating crew needs to determine if it is a 'run' (Any body motion that does not exhibit 'throwing motion)

 

With all of the talk of Colin Kaepernick becoming elite very quickly (ESPN yesterday) as stated in the article teams need to understand the effects of punishment that may be taken.  The NFL defenses WILL catch up.

[dw49]

This looks like something I wrote in Colts Forums and I got some heat from my friends and foes alike 

 

I TOTALLY agree with the Madden, Tomlin, Lewis....old school philosophy.  You have to let the quarterback and coaching staff of the opposing team know that you will hit them early and often.

 

Some teams may take an early 15 yard   to make a statement.  Do not be surprised.  Detroit is the PRIME example.  The Steelers too.  And remember the Bengals now have James Harrison.

 

The read and pistol are both deviations as I have stated of the old veer offense that rarely had passing (Sorry I am old )  We were taught from Day one to hit the QB and do not ask questions.(I ran lots of laps for missing said QB ) It has to happen as long as it is clean.  The officiating crew needs to determine if it is a 'run' (Any body motion that does not exhibit 'throwing motion)

 

With all of the talk of Colin Kaepernick becoming elite very quickly (ESPN yesterday) as stated in the article teams need to understand the effects of punishment that may be taken.  The NFL defenses WILL catch up.

 

 

I don't disagree at all with what you are saying. What really shocked me last year was that I never saw Kaepernick take a hard hit last year. RG3 paid the price more than once but this guy never seemed to get hit. Neither did R Wilson but I think he was more just scrambling than running the read option.. you agree ?

[Franklin County]

4 or 5 low leg shots in the first quarter, and they may think differently. RG3 already has weak knees, if he was our qb (thank god hes not) I know I would cry every time he was hit low. Kap has long slender legs also. Wilson may take the punishment better than those 2. But he didnt look like he enjoyed being sacked last night. I am not saying try to break a knee, ( I wish harm on no one) just scare the greater powers of the opposing teams. It just may work.

[Franklin County]

I don't disagree at all with what you are saying. What really shocked me last year was that I never saw Kaepernick take a hard hit last year. RG3 paid the price more than once but this guy never seemed to get hit. Neither did R Wilson but I think he was more just scrambling than running the read option.. you agree ?

Wilson scrambled alot when his line broke down.

[BrentMc11]

I don't disagree at all with what you are saying. What really shocked me last year was that I never saw Kaepernick take a hard hit last year. RG3 paid the price more than once but this guy never seemed to get hit. Neither did R Wilson but I think he was more just scrambling than running the read option.. you agree ?

I have to admit I do not get to see the west coast teams as often DW, but I know RG3 took some serious shots.  With Kaep coming in after the season had started....he was a true surprise to Everyone, and Russell Wilson was an unknown too being a rookie.  After about 3 games, the Seahawks had discussed replacing Wilson with Flynn.  (Money talked a little I think.

 

This is a new year...and talk from the coaches at the meetings/media means to me they will be taking no prisoners in 2013/14.....the defensive coaches have spoken....and some are silent assassins!   :nfl:  :nfl:  :nfl: !!!!!

[BrentMc11]

4 or 5 low leg shots in the first quarter, and they may think differently. RG3 already has weak knees, if he was our qb (thank god hes not) I know I would cry every time he was hit low. Kap has long slender legs also. Wilson may take the punishment better than those 2. But he didnt look like he enjoyed being sacked last night. I am not saying try to break a knee, ( I wish harm on no one) just scare the greater powers of the opposing teams. It just may work.

I watched just a little last night.  I saw the first sack....and Wlson did not look like he enjoyed it or the "scrum" afterwards.

 

I also saw the very smooth run and slide by Wilson.  We need Luck to slide just like Wilson!!!

[amfootball]

I don't disagree at all with what you are saying. What really shocked me last year was that I never saw Kaepernick take a hard hit last year. RG3 paid the price more than once but this guy never seemed to get hit. Neither did R Wilson but I think he was more just scrambling than running the read option.. you agree ?

RG paid the price when he was on the run not from the pocket generally. This philosophy of hitting the Qb was done by the Pats twice to Tebow which forced fumbles and also made Tebow indicisive. Not sure how it is against the rules if the Qb is believed to be running with the ball.

[Franklin County]

I watched just a little last night.  I saw the first sack....and Wlson did not look like he enjoyed it or the "scrum" afterwards.

 

I also saw the very smooth run and slide by Wilson.  We need Luck to slide just like Wilson!!!

I hope when we play Seattle they give us as many penalty yards as they did GB. That was turrrribbblllleeee.

[21isSuperman]

We had a pretty good discussion about this in another thread (http://forums.colts.com/topic/19195-defending-the-read-option/).  I came to the same conclusion, but Superman and stat2883 (both very knowledgeable football guys) brought up some really good points.  Essentially, if you try to hit the QB, you're taking one of your defenders out of the play and that leaves you susceptible in the run game.  Of course, technically, it would then become 10 vs 10, so it should be somewhat equal.  The part I hate is that all we can do is speculate and come up with theories.  Until we see it in action, we won't know what works and what doesn't.

[amfootball]

I think teams will hit the pitch man too whether or not the QB dishes it to him or not.

[alawai]

This looks like something I wrote in Colts Forums and I got some heat from my friends and foes alike 

 

I TOTALLY agree with the Madden, Tomlin, Lewis....old school philosophy.  You have to let the quarterback and coaching staff of the opposing team know that you will hit them early and often.

 

Some teams may take an early 15 yard   to make a statement.  Do not be surprised.  Detroit is the PRIME example.  The Steelers too.  And remember the Bengals now have James Harrison.

 

The read and pistol are both deviations as I have stated of the old veer offense that rarely had passing (Sorry I am old )  We were taught from Day one to hit the QB and do not ask questions.(I ran lots of laps for missing said QB ) It has to happen as long as it is clean.  The officiating crew needs to determine if it is a 'run' (Any body motion that does not exhibit 'throwing motion)

 

With all of the talk of Colin Kaepernick becoming elite very quickly (ESPN yesterday) as stated in the article teams need to understand the effects of punishment that may be taken.  The NFL defenses WILL catch up.

Old school and the Veer!  I thought you were during the single wing offense!  I also said during my time my coach said make it your option and not his (qb).  The opposing qb has a different color uniform so hit 'um!  Of course the rules were a little different during my time oops I mean during Brent's time.

[dw49]

RG paid the price when he was on the run not from the pocket generally. This philosophy of hitting the Qb was done by the Pats twice to Tebow which forced fumbles and also made Tebow indicisive. Not sure how it is against the rules if the Qb is believed to be running with the ball.

 

 

 

The rules protecting the QB's are only suppose to pertain to when he is passing the ball. If he's running it , he is deemed to be "fair game" and I'm sure that's what you are saying above. My question would be if an "arm pump" might start drawing penalties or maybe the ref's will "tweak" the interpretation a bit to protect QB's that are running the read option ?

 

You are correct saying RG3 took most of his big hits on plays where he just pulled it down when receivers were covered and ran. Different than what these coaches are saying what will happen in 2013. I'm dying to see how this all plays out and see how much peril coaches are willing to put these "running" QB's in.

[House]

RG paid the price when he was on the run not from the pocket generally. This philosophy of hitting the Qb was done by the Pats twice to Tebow which forced fumbles and also made Tebow indicisive. Not sure how it is against the rules if the Qb is believed to be running with the ball.

Pretty sure you broke his ribs or something too in that playoff game lol.

[amfootball]

Pretty sure you broke his ribs or something too in that playoff game lol.

yeah, bruised ribs. lol. Will be interesting to see how defenses come up to stop it. Brawn usually wins the day.

[BOTT]

Pretty sure you broke his ribs or something too in that playoff game lol.

Bruised lung

[amfootball]

The rules protecting the QB's are only suppose to pertain to when he is passing the ball. If he's running it , he is deemed to be "fair game" and I'm sure that's what you are saying above. My question would be if an "arm pump" might start drawing penalties or maybe the ref's will "tweak" the interpretation a bit to protect QB's that are running the read option ?

 

You are correct saying RG3 took most of his big hits on plays where he just pulled it down when receivers were covered and ran. Different than what these coaches are saying what will happen in 2013. I'm dying to see how this all plays out and see how much peril coaches are willing to put these "running" QB's in.

Yeah, I would think the QBs would try to draw some penalites but you wonder if it is worth it. I think teams like the skins and niners will run more of a traditional offense becasue their QBs can do it with some read option sprinkled in to get some yards for the RBs and get some WRs open down field. I think anytime you have to make a defense defend multiple looks then you are in a position of strength.

[oldunclemark]

The Read option is, in many respects, an inverted wishbone.....

 

..and the reason the wishbbone never came to the NFL was that NFL player like to hurt the QB....

 

 

 

....Speeding up the game..as Phily now does...works until a couple, of plays fail..and then you're only hurting yourself

 

....Seattle is dangerous because its tough to hit Wilson but RG3 and Kap  are going to have to take a lot of punishment they aren't built to take

[LockeDown]

The Read option is, in many respects, an inverted wishbone.....

 

..and the reason the wishbbone never came to the NFL was that NFL player like to hurt the QB....

 

 

 

....Speeding up the game..as Phily now does...works until a couple, of plays fail..and then you're only hurting yourself

 

....Seattle is dangerous because its tough to hit Wilson but RG3 and Kap  are going to have to take a lot of punishment they aren't built to take

 

THe NFL pays guys to play and nobody makes more money than the QB.  I am always surprised at how much NFL defensive players hate NFL QBs.  They have every incentive to want to hurt them in the pocket where it is hard to get at them, so when the QB is on the run, this is their favorite dream come true.

[Qwiz]

The Read option is, in many respects, an inverted wishbone.....

..and the reason the wishbbone never came to the NFL was that NFL player like to hurt the QB....

....Speeding up the game..as Phily now does...works until a couple, of plays fail..and then you're only hurting yourself

....Seattle is dangerous because its tough to hit Wilson but RG3 and Kap are going to have to take a lot of punishment they aren't built to take

RG and Kaep are faster than Wilson. Plus Kaep runs more plays out of the pistol so he doesn't necessarily have to get hit.

[oldunclemark]

RG and Kaep are faster than Wilson. Plus Kaep runs more plays out of the pistol so he doesn't necessarily have to get hit.

Doesn't matter...Kap will be hit, Quiz....and so will RG3...

 

.....The QB has to run the ball occasionally or the plays become easy to 'read' 

 

 Robert is a better passer and both are faster...but the read option plan is to make the QB an option that has to be defended..

 

..to do that..the QB has to carry the ball and be effective at it..

 

...everybody's plans works until they get hit

[Qwiz]

Doesn't matter...Kap will be hit, Quiz....and so will RG3...

 

.....The QB has to run the ball occasionally or the plays become easy to 'read' 

 

 Robert is a better passer and both are faster...but the read option plan is to make the QB an option that has to be defended..

 

..to do that..the QB has to carry the ball and be effective at it..

 

...everybody's plans works until they get hit

The QB doesn't have to run in the pistol. Kaep plays significantly more out of the pistol than the other two guys. Having a running QB certainly helps but it isn't necessary. Matthew Stafford runs it and he isn't looked at as a particularly athletic guy. But if we're talking about the read-option, yes, defenses will start to hit the quarterback...but offenses will find a way to stop this as well. Having the QB stand in a throwing motion after getting rid of the ball could help (though it takes away a little bit of the surprise, but runningbacks will be in full motion by then), referees could listen to coaches complain about unnecessary shots, etc. etc. It wouldn't be the first time referees favored quarterbacks. I'm just not convinced than defenses will have figured it out to a point where it becomes obsolete.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I'll post a link I found quoting John Madden on what he's hearing from NFL coaches on this. I find this not a surprising mind set but have serious doubts the NFL is going to allow this kind of defensive play on QB's. I think by rule , this would be no doubt be legal but I think the question will be if the NFL steps in and "tweaks" the interpretation on what are legal and illegal QB hits.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000233287/article/john-madden-nfl-defenses-will-attack-readoption-qbs

???

Not sure what all the handwringing is about regarding the rules and some notion that the NFL has ANYTHING to say regarding an individual who leaves the pocket and gets hit.

Once you run...you're a "runner". Doesn't matter if you're a QB or not.

???

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I think teams will hit the pitch man too whether or not the QB dishes it to him or not.

And that is EXACTLY what Bill Parcells sais last season when he & Polian were discussing this. AND he said he'd be more than willing to take penalties in order to make the point.

The second the QB moves toward an option/pistol/run & shoot/scoot & poop whatever, you blast him. After week two, it'll all be over with.

[OffensivelyPC]

If he's a runner, blast him.  Teams want to put their QB at risk, that's on them, but defenses shouldn't get penalized if the QB keeps the ball, starts to run and then throws last second.  These read option plays have the propensity to evolve as the play unfolds and at one moment, it is a run, then pass, then run.  You can't expect defenses to just sit back and let the QB decide whether to pass or run, because its that hesitation that kills defenses and its the hesitation that this particular play tries to create.  I say hit him until he doesn't get up.  It's borderline dirty, but as long as they aren't going for the QBs head, it's' fair and it's the only response to this play, if you ask me.

[OffensivelyPC]

I don't disagree at all with what you are saying. What really shocked me last year was that I never saw Kaepernick take a hard hit last year. RG3 paid the price more than once but this guy never seemed to get hit. Neither did R Wilson but I think he was more just scrambling than running the read option.. you agree ?

Well that was last year when D's werent' sure how to stop the read option.  I read a good article yesterday on grantland.  There was a quote that stuck out to me.  He didn't name the source, but said that an SEC offensive line coach said something to the degree that "Watching the NFL teams defend the read option was like stepping into a time machine and watching college teams learning how to defend the read option a decade ago.  Poor techniques, naive tactics, and ugly results were like seeing college defenses try to defend these plays, but a decade ago." http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9508313/after-offseason-searching-nfl-coaches-know-how-defend-read-option

 

Defenses will catch up, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out in the NFL.  The author opined that it won't be completely eliminated because in college, the formation and read option are still used with a degree of effectiveness.  While that may be true, college teams other than elite teams like Alabama have weaknesses in every defense (i.e. some guys who are slower, guys who aren't as good as the other players around them, etc.).  In the pros, everyone is fast, everyone is good (or at least the overall talent is better).  Colleges still run versions of the wildcat with efficiency, but its' not run at all in the NFL except in GL situations and even then, it is rare.  Will the read option survive?  I don't know, but I guarantee you that it won't be as effective as last year.

[lollygagger8]

We had a pretty good discussion about this in another thread (http://forums.colts.com/topic/19195-defending-the-read-option/).  I came to the same conclusion, but Superman and stat2883 (both very knowledgeable football guys) brought up some really good points.  Essentially, if you try to hit the QB, you're taking one of your defenders out of the play and that leaves you susceptible in the run game.  Of course, technically, it would then become 10 vs 10, so it should be somewhat equal.  The part I hate is that all we can do is speculate and come up with theories.  Until we see it in action, we won't know what works and what doesn't.

 

The problem in doing that, is the guy (usually a LB) you put on the QB usually isn't near as fast as the QB. You'd have to bring in a quick CB to keep up with the QB, then like you said, that opens up the run game. 

[dw49]

???

Not sure what all the handwringing is about regarding the rules and some notion that the NFL has ANYTHING to say regarding an individual who leaves the pocket and gets hit.

Once you run...you're a "runner". Doesn't matter if you're a QB or not.

???

 

 

Geez Brian , I would think that when I say "I think by rule , this would be no doubt be legal " I would be agreeing with what you have . So why the 6 question marks ? My question was if the NFL was going to let defenses "tee off " on RG# , Wilson and KC if they are running a lot of run option stuff. It sounds like these NFL coaches Madden quotes are planning on beating these guys up pretty good. Couple that with how they have moved the rules to protect QB's the last few years. Things like hit them below low . touch their helmets take more than a step and a half and hit them, etc, etc . It would just not surprise me if they "tweaked "the 'interpretation' of the rule you "and I" know is already in place. BTW.. I'm 100% with you and feel the same as you ... they are fair game. 

[dw49]

Well that was last year when D's werent' sure how to stop the read option.  I read a good article yesterday on grantland.  There was a quote that stuck out to me.  He didn't name the source, but said that an SEC offensive line coach said something to the degree that "Watching the NFL teams defend the read option was like stepping into a time machine and watching college teams learning how to defend the read option a decade ago.  Poor techniques, naive tactics, and ugly results were like seeing college defenses try to defend these plays, but a decade ago." http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9508313/after-offseason-searching-nfl-coaches-know-how-defend-read-option

 

Defenses will catch up, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out in the NFL.  The author opined that it won't be completely eliminated because in college, the formation and read option are still used with a degree of effectiveness.  While that may be true, college teams other than elite teams like Alabama have weaknesses in every defense (i.e. some guys who are slower, guys who aren't as good as the other players around them, etc.).  In the pros, everyone is fast, everyone is good (or at least the overall talent is better).  Colleges still run versions of the wildcat with efficiency, but its' not run at all in the NFL except in GL situations and even then, it is rare.  Will the read option survive?  I don't know, but I guarantee you that it won't be as effective as last year.

 

 

No doubt in my mind that your correct in saying they will better defend the read option. I guess that coupled with the some planing to get some good hits on the QB might make it something teams with these type QB's will think twice about running . At least running a whole lot ?

[BOTT]

Geez Brian , I would think that when I say "I think by rule , this would be no doubt be legal " I would be agreeing with what you have . So why the 6 question marks ? My question was if the NFL was going to let defenses "tee off " on RG# , Wilson and KC if they are running a lot of run option stuff. It sounds like these NFL coaches Madden quotes are planning on beating these guys up pretty good. Couple that with how they have moved the rules to protect QB's the last few years. Things like hit them below low . touch their helmets take more than a step and a half and hit them, etc, etc . It would just not surprise me if they "tweaked "the 'interpretation' of the rule you "and I" know is already in place. BTW.. I'm 100% with you and feel the same as you ... they are fair game. 

Was listening to a Grantland podcast and the nfl's head of officiating pretty much gave defenders the green light to light these guys up. They will get no extra protection.

[dw49]

Was listening to a Grantland podcast and the nfl's head of officiating pretty much gave defenders the green light to light these guys up. They will get no extra protection.

 

 

That's almost funny... for some reason , I'm sitting here chuckling. Does that mean I'm a bad person ? 

[BrentMc11]

That's almost funny... for some reason , I'm sitting here chuckling. Does that mean I'm a bad person ? 

The same reason I liked Bloods post.....hit em.  

[stat2883]

Was listening to a Grantland podcast and the nfl's head of officiating pretty much gave defenders the green light to light these guys up. They will get no extra protection.

the one caveat to this is given the QB is carrying through with the fake. If the QB declares that he doesn't have the ball, then its a flag (unless he waits till just before the hit, then the QB is just slow)

[Malakai432]

Not only would they have to worry about brutal hits, even the field itself can be very brutal claiming players on a yearly basis.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I mentioned last year there would be a lot of NFL d coaches consulting with their college D coach counterparts this winter for ways to better contain it.  I guess we'll see what tactics they tend to go with.  I feel one thing is they will focus on stopping the big breakout run, opting to give up the solid yardage that only moves the chains ever couple plays.  That way there are more plays in a drive to cause a turnover.  My inclination was putting a fast guy on the QB and it is his job(and only job in the beginning) to be close enough to the QB that he can deliver a legal hit, whether the QB kept or dumped/handed the ball off.  But maybe not. I haven't seen enough college games to know what those D coordinators do.