Coby Fleener's 1st year production vs the 1st year production of other top TE's in the league.

[Dustin]

1. 23 yards a game, 2 TDs, 11.2 YPR, and 2.1 RPG in 16 games.

2. 23.4 yards per games, 2 TDs, 10.8 YPR, and 2.2 RPG in 12 games.

3. 23.1 yard per game, 1 TD, 9.9 YPR, and 2.3 RPG in 15 games.

4. 23.7 yards per game, 5 TDs, 11.5 YPR, and 2.1 RPG in 15 games.

5. 26.5 yards per game, 3 TDs, 13.3 YPR, and 2.0 RPG in 10 games

6. 25.9 yards per game, 2 TDs, 16.2 YPR, and 1.6 RPG in 15 games.

_______________________________________________________________________

Just thought I'd throw these numbers up to show that just because he wasn't an all-pro in his first year, doesn't mean he can't be in the future. A lot of the top TEs in the league didn't put up staggering numbers their first years.

1. Is Tony G

2. Is Coby Fleener

3. Jason Witten

4. Jimmy Graham

5. Vernon Davis

6. Antonio Gates

[Dustin]

Btw YPR= yards per reception and RPG= receptions per game.

[John Dee]

Fleener will be fine, the bad OL affected more than just Luck and the passing game.  It also forced TE's to stay tight and block.   

 

BTW,     Fleener and Allen both had butterfinger hands last season.   I don't get why Fleener is the only TE catching heck.    

[BPM_Colt]

Fleener will be fine. We have two good TEs.

 

Also was in Louisville at the Colts FanFest today and was able to get his and Allen's autograph on a mini helmet. Both seemed to be pretty cool guys and both will be very good IMO

[TKnight24]

Fleener will be fine, the bad OL affected more than just Luck and the passing game. It also forced TE's to stay tight and block.

BTW, Fleener and Allen both had butterfinger hands last season. I don't get why Fleener is the only TE catching heck.

Cause some people believe anyone taken in the 1st or 2nd must ball out their first year or they're a bust

Smh

[CjMcGirt23]

Fleener's gonna take the AFCS by storm this year.

[Smurphy1]

Fleener will be fine, the bad OL affected more than just Luck and the passing game.  It also forced TE's to stay tight and block.   

 

BTW,     Fleener and Allen both had butterfinger hands last season.   I don't get why Fleener is the only TE catching heck.    

 

Allen caught like 68% of his targets with is 14% higher than lucks completion percentage. Allen actually had pretty good hands.

[TKnight24]

Been trying to tell people that even the greats didn't explode their first year. This Fleener bashing has to stop man

[Valpo2004]

Allen caught like 68% of his targets with is 14% higher than lucks completion percentage. Allen actually had pretty good hands.

 

Agree Allen's hands where fine.  

 

Also quite frankly Allen made more plays then Fleener.  

 

I think Fleener will improve and show his worth, but I'm even more excited about Allen's prospects.  Dude was underrated this year and I think in a couple years at most he'll be a pro-bowler.  

[Smurphy1]

Agree Allen's hands where fine.  

 

Also quite frankly Allen made more plays then Fleener.  

 

I think Fleener will improve and show his worth, but I'm even more excited about Allen's prospects.  Dude was underrated this year and I think in a couple years at most he'll be a pro-bowler.  

 

The way I see it based on last year is that Fleener has the potential for big plays with his size and speed while Allen is more short yardage clutch. Both bring something unique and helpful to the offense but Fleener will likely end up with the bigger stat line when its all said and done.

[Valpo2004]

The way I see it based on last year is that Fleener has the potential for big plays with his size and speed while Allen is more short yardage clutch. Both bring something unique and helpful to the offense but Fleener will likely end up with the bigger stat line when its all said and done.

 

Maybe, but there is something to love about Allen's versatility.  

[Coltscodeblue]

Coby Fleener did look like he was scared out there, that is not bashing him, it was the truth, he looked really uncomfortable and looked better when he made that TD running up the side line, he just didn't like going into the middle at any time....

 

Go Colts!!!!!

[TKnight24]

Agree Allen's hands where fine.

Also quite frankly Allen made more plays then Fleener.

I think Fleener will improve and show his worth, but I'm even more excited about Allen's prospects. Dude was underrated this year and I think in a couple years at most he'll be a pro-bowler.

Being "TE of the year" your final season in college isn't exactly being underrated. He only went so late cause no one really needed a TE apparently. We lucked up (no pun intended) and got the best 2 TE's out of the draft

[GoColts8818]

Fleener will be fine, the bad OL affected more than just Luck and the passing game.  It also forced TE's to stay tight and block.   

 

BTW,     Fleener and Allen both had butterfinger hands last season.   I don't get why Fleener is the only TE catching heck.    

Honestly because the dude wasn't a pro-bowler right out of the box people act like he can't play at all.  I am with you, nothing wrong with letting the guy develop rather than to rush to judgment just so people can be the "first" to throw their opinion that he can't play out there. 

[Jason_]

Honestly because the dude wasn't a pro-bowler right out of the box people act like he can't play at all.  I am with you, nothing wrong with letting the guy develop rather than to rush to judgment just so people can be the "first" to throw their opinion that he can't play out there. 

 

I agree...I also really don't get the "scared to go over the middle" stuff.  *shrug*

[TKnight24]

People also need to go watch some of our film. There's a few plays that Fleener was open and Luck overlooked him. Don't know how you overlook a guy with Fleeners height but Luck did.

Example: Remember that Redzone Blunder vs the Jets when Luck overthrew Coby Fleener?

See no one thinks of things like that. Some of you guys just look at stats and automatically say someone sucks or is a bust. Take some time to watch last year's film and look at the plays Fleener would've had if Luck wasn't looking for Reggie most of the time

[GoColts8818]

I agree...I also really don't get the "scared to go over the middle" stuff.  *shrug*

I think it could be people had unrealistic expectations for Fleener in his first year and rather than admitting that they had unrealistic expectations for a rookie player they just say the guy under performed and try to invent reasons why the guy under performed and the best way to do that is to say things that can't be proven or not proven on a message board by saying a guy looks scared or is afraid to go over the middle.  I am sorry I don't think any player truly likes going over the middle in the NFL.  It's like hitting the wall in auto racing.  Everyone is scared to do it because you can get hurt doing it.  The smart ones avoid it when they can, IE guys like Harrison and Wayne who would go down before they could get leveled.  Yet you don't hear people say they are scared to go over the middle you year people say they were smart to avoid the big hit by going down. 

[GoColts8818]

People also need to go watch some of our film. There's a few plays that Fleener was open and Luck overlooked him. Don't know how you overlook a guy with Fleeners height but Luck did.

Example: Remember that Redzone Blunder vs the Jets when Luck overthrew Coby Fleener?

See no one thinks of things like that. Some of you guys just look at stats and automatically say someone sucks or is a bust. Take some time to watch last year's film and look at the plays Fleener would've had if Luck wasn't looking for Reggie most of the time

I really don't think Luck likes to throw short passes.  He'll do it but I think he likes going down the field and frankly in Arians offense he was encouraged to go down the field.  I think it's one of those things he'll learn as time goes on.  Young Peyton liked to go down the field more than throw underneath stuff too so I am not going to hit some panic button on Luck over it. 

 

There were also times like the Jets game when Fleener was wide open and Luck tried to throw him the ball and just completely botched the throw.  So it wasn't all Fleener's fault. 

 

With that said, Fleener was a rookie who played like a rookie in the NFL.  His biggest problem was that he was sandwhiched between two picks and a draft class a whole that preformed better than most rookies do. 

[TKnight24]

I really don't think Luck likes to throw short passes. He'll do it but I think he likes going down the field and frankly in Arians offense he was encouraged to go down the field. I think it's one of those things he'll learn as time goes on. Young Peyton liked to go down the field more than throw underneath stuff too so I am not going to hit some panic button on Luck over it.

There were also times like the Jets game when Fleener was wide open and Luck tried to throw him the ball and just completely botched the throw. So it wasn't all Fleener's fault.

With that said, Fleener was a rookie who played like a rookie in the NFL. His biggest problem was that he was sandwhiched between two picks and a draft class a whole that preformed better than most rookies do.

You have that backwards, Luck LOVES short passes. It was Arians that took him out that mindset. Watch him at Stanford. He loved the flats 4 his running backs and the slants for his receivers. He only went deep usually off of play action. Arians took him away from that. When you take 7 step dropbacks you're looking for the long completions not the dump offs. When this year starts you'll see how much Luck changes in his decision making

[The Fish]

I wana make a cheesy joke about Colby Fleener, but I won't

[colts_mp]

Cause some people believe anyone taken in the 1st or 2nd must ball out their first year or they're a bust

Smh

Because a lot of poster had such high expectations for him.  Go back and read the threads when we first drafted him.  So many were saying (including Jim Irsay) how he's a matchup nightmare, had immediate chemistry with Luck, runs so fast, soft hands, etc.  He was even being said to be the next Gronk.  With those attributes he should have had a better season, especially with the number of attempts Luck had.  We used a very precious draft pick on him so fans want to see results and not excuses.

[TKnight24]

Because a lot of poster had such high expectations for him. Go back and read the threads when we first drafted him. So many were saying (including Jim Irsay) how he's a matchup nightmare, had immediate chemistry with Luck, runs so fast, soft hands, etc. He was even being said to be the next Gronk. With those attributes he should have had a better season, especially with the number of attempts Luck had. We used a very precious draft pick on him so fans want to see results and not excuses.

And if you look at the original post you'll see that even the greats had a slow rookie year. Now if Fleener goes these next 2 seasons being timid and all that even with Pep here, then yes you could say we "wasted" our pick on him. But you don't slam the door on someone's career after just one season that's wrong. Not all rookies are gonna come in and shine. Some are timid and nervous even scared. Doesn't make them bust or garbage, it makes them human just like the rest of us.

[colts_mp]

And if you look at the original post you'll see that even the greats had a slow rookie year. Now if Fleener goes these next 2 seasons being timid and all that even with Pep here, then yes you could say we "wasted" our pick on him. But you don't slam the door on someone's career after just one season that's wrong. Not all rookies are gonna come in and shine. Some are timid and nervous even scared. Doesn't make them bust or garbage, it makes them human just like the rest of us.

How many of those had a QB as good as Luck?  or was a college teammate of their QB?  those are advantages Fleener had that the others didn't which again is why he was expected to do more.

 

That being said, he's not a bust.  But this coming year is certainly a make or break year.  If you have your college QB and coach and still can't make a big impact with the tools he has then it's time to part ways.

[Valpo2004]

Being "TE of the year" your final season in college isn't exactly being underrated. He only went so late cause no one really needed a TE apparently. We lucked up (no pun intended) and got the best 2 TE's out of the draft

 

I was saying he was underrated in the NFL.  He was every bit as important to our 11 win season as say TY Hilton.  But I watched NFL network and I heard about TY Hilton several times and they showed his highlights.  They never mentioned Dwayne Allen.  

 

I can't say I know why that is but Dwayne Allen isn't getting any media love.  

 

Actually he's not talked about that much on here either, at least not as much as others like TY Hilton or Vick Ballard.  

 

Heck I think Fleener is going to prove his worth out there next year, but the dude had a much better season then Fleener and he get's less attention then Fleener.  

 

Anyways. . . Dwayne Allen, underrated.  The only people that didn't under rate him was PFF who had some very glowing things to say about him.  

[Coltscodeblue]

Oh no he's not a bust by any means, at Stanford he looked dominate on the field, it maybe just my opinion, but he looked not as much with the Arians offense and might be opening himself up to a huge hit, but after a year he's going to be extremely confident with his abilities and also returning to the PepH. offense and will excel, I just have that faith in him.....

 

Go Colts!!!!!

 

Please C.Fleener no more jack hammer TD celebrations :}LOL

[GoColts8818]

You have that backwards, Luck LOVES short passes. It was Arians that took him out that mindset. Watch him at Stanford. He loved the flats 4 his running backs and the slants for his receivers. He only went deep usually off of play action. Arians took him away from that. When you take 7 step dropbacks you're looking for the long completions not the dump offs. When this year starts you'll see how much Luck changes in his decision making

No I don't, while Arians wanted us to throw the ball deep it's Luck that had to make the decision of who to throw the ball to and who not to throw the ball on plays.  There were many plays last year where he would have multipal receivers open on a play and he would elect to throw to the deep guy on a lot of them.  That's his choice not the coach.  Maybe one of the better examples of this was caught on video with audio in the Packers highlights from last year.  We were driving for a score and Luck made a throw across his body to Reggie in double coverage in the back on the endzone to try to get the touchdown and passed on a wide open Donald Brown who would have in all likely hood gotten a first down but not the touchdown.  As soon as Luck got to the sidelines Arians grabs him and says "Never throw that pass again." and then points out "You have Donald underneath, if you throw it to him he catches it and is down at the three and we are going in for the score on the next play.

 

At the end of the day it's probably a mix of both not all Arians and not all Luck.  However, we can't ignore that Luck is the one who would pull the trigger and make the decision on where to go with the football so he had a hand in it.  I would agree though that Arians offense lent it's self to go deep more often than most, however I also think to just blame all of Luck's deep passes on Arians offense is also a mistake. 

 

Like I said before younger QBs in general tend to like going down the field more than the dink and dunk offense and frankly it's harder to run a dink and dunk offense so I am not concerned at all over Luck doing that as a rookie.  I am sure like most younger QBs he will develop and grow and throw more dink and dunk plays as time goes on and I also do think that Pep's offense will lend it's self to more dinking and dunking than Arians did. 

[Jason_]

How many of those had a QB as good as Luck?  or was a college teammate of their QB?  those are advantages Fleener had that the others didn't which again is why he was expected to do more.

 

That being said, he's not a bust.  But this coming year is certainly a make or break year.  If you have your college QB and coach and still can't make a big impact with the tools he has then it's time to part ways.

 

That's the part I don't get.  Luck made a lot of rookie mistakes too.  He overthrew Fleener many times but people just like to talk about Fleener underproducing.  People will look at things that don't show up on the stat sheet when it comes to Luck...like the horrible OL, Arians offense etc etc so no one cares about Luck's less than 55% completion percentage or his 18 INT's.  And they're right to do so.  But some people do not seem to take those same things into consideration when it comes to Fleener.  

 

The rest of this is in general reply to multiple other posts made in this and the other thread and are not directly in response to the post that I quoted by colts_mp.

 

How often is a rookie TE going to be the Primary Receiver in an NFL play?  Probably not likely when a guy like Reggie Wayne is on the field.  Now, factor in that Arians does a lot more with multiple WR sets than he does with TE's.  So Fleener wasn't going to be a primary target very often, if at all.  More often than not, Luck didn't have time to properly go through progressions before he had to run for his life so Fleener's chances of being a target went down even more.  Then factor in how much they kept Fleener in as a blocker.  

 

So no, Fleener wasn't able to be utilized in the manner that best suits his skill set but that's not all his fault.  Luck's spotty accuracy (which was understandable considering the constant pressure he was under) and Arians' offensive scheme also heavily figured into that as well.  

 

And I would be HIGHLY disappointed if the Colts gave up on Fleener after 2 years.  Really?  Fleener will at least finish out his rookie contract with the Colts so I don't see any scenario where he gets cut after next year.  And if you want him to be, all I can say is

[Jim H.]

Nice topic.  Too bad numbers don't matter to all the Fleener-haters out there.

 

I believe between Allen and Fleener - the Colts have a great set of TE's that will give opposing defenses fits in every aspect.

[NewEra]

I like Fleener and think he will be much my h better this year. Allen just surprised me. He plays with an attitude and angry. He's one BAMF!

[crazycolt1]

Because a lot of poster had such high expectations for him.  Go back and read the threads when we first drafted him.  So many were saying (including Jim Irsay) how he's a matchup nightmare, had immediate chemistry with Luck, runs so fast, soft hands, etc.  He was even being said to be the next Gronk.  With those attributes he should have had a better season, especially with the number of attempts Luck had.  We used a very precious draft pick on him so fans want to see results and not excuses.

It normally takes any receiver 2 or 3 years to learn their trade. The talent level of pro linebackers and defensive backs compared to the pros is a huge step. There have been very few exceptions to that observation. Luck was force feeding Reggie so much throughout the season the other receivers really didn't have all that much work in game time experience. Last season Luck was late for training camp due to his finales he didn't have that many reps to work with. 5 of 7 of his receivers were rookies and it showed in games. Arians played a big part in what Luck was doing at the same time he was being pounded by defenses in every game. The expectations were there but the reality was Lucks pure talent made us through to the playoffs. You call them excuses when in fact the team as a whole over achieved all season on Luck and Waynes backs. I have no clue if Fleener will be an all star but most of the fans expectations were way too high from day one. My memory tells me that even Wayne had some pretty poor numbers his first year due to the fact that Manning forced his passes to Harrison the same way Luck did with Wayne. 

[crazycolt1]

No I don't, while Arians wanted us to throw the ball deep it's Luck that had to make the decision of who to throw the ball to and who not to throw the ball on plays.  There were many plays last year where he would have multipal receivers open on a play and he would elect to throw to the deep guy on a lot of them.  That's his choice not the coach.  Maybe one of the better examples of this was caught on video with audio in the Packers highlights from last year.  We were driving for a score and Luck made a throw across his body to Reggie in double coverage in the back on the endzone to try to get the touchdown and passed on a wide open Donald Brown who would have in all likely hood gotten a first down but not the touchdown.  As soon as Luck got to the sidelines Arians grabs him and says "Never throw that pass again." and then points out "You have Donald underneath, if you throw it to him he catches it and is down at the three and we are going in for the score on the next play.

 

At the end of the day it's probably a mix of both not all Arians and not all Luck.  However, we can't ignore that Luck is the one who would pull the trigger and make the decision on where to go with the football so he had a hand in it.  I would agree though that Arians offense lent it's self to go deep more often than most, however I also think to just blame all of Luck's deep passes on Arians offense is also a mistake. 

 

Like I said before younger QBs in general tend to like going down the field more than the dink and dunk offense and frankly it's harder to run a dink and dunk offense so I am not concerned at all over Luck doing that as a rookie.  I am sure like most younger QBs he will develop and grow and throw more dink and dunk plays as time goes on and I also do think that Pep's offense will lend it's self to more dinking and dunking than Arians did. 

You failed to mention while all this was going on Luck was running for his life and getting beat into the ground. Maybe that contributed in itself to a lot of errant passes? 

[crazycolt1]

That's the part I don't get.  Luck made a lot of rookie mistakes too.  He overthrew Fleener many times but people just like to talk about Fleener underproducing.  People will look at things that don't show up on the stat sheet when it comes to Luck...like the horrible OL, Arians offense etc etc so no one cares about Luck's less than 55% completion percentage or his 18 INT's.  And they're right to do so.  But some people do not seem to take those same things into consideration when it comes to Fleener.  

 

The rest of this is in general reply to multiple other posts made in this and the other thread and are not directly in response to the post that I quoted by colts_mp.

 

How often is a rookie TE going to be the Primary Receiver in an NFL play?  Probably not likely when a guy like Reggie Wayne is on the field.  Now, factor in that Arians does a lot more with multiple WR sets than he does with TE's.  So Fleener wasn't going to be a primary target very often, if at all.  More often than not, Luck didn't have time to properly go through progressions before he had to run for his life so Fleener's chances of being a target went down even more.  Then factor in how much they kept Fleener in as a blocker.  

 

So no, Fleener wasn't able to be utilized in the manner that best suits his skill set but that's not all his fault.  Luck's spotty accuracy (which was understandable considering the constant pressure he was under) and Arians' offensive scheme also heavily figured into that as well.  

 

And I would be HIGHLY disappointed if the Colts gave up on Fleener after 2 years.  Really?  Fleener will at least finish out his rookie contract with the Colts so I don't see any scenario where he gets cut after next year.  And if you want him to be, all I can say is

Well said. I pretty much made a comment saying the same thing in an earlier post. Even the great Jerry Rice had 3 TDs as a rookie with Joe Montana as his QB. I am not saying Rice and Fleener should be said in a sentence together but I think the point was made.

[Hans Moleman]

Fleener will be just fine. By all the accounts I've heard, he's going to be better than just fine and is developing into a nice weapon for us.

 

Bottom line is some people looked for whatever excuse they could find to knock the guy because they hated the pick. Every year there's a few whipping boys that get picked out by fans for whatever reason, and there's nothing that guy will be able to do right. I don't know why that is, I don't like that that's how it is, but it is what it is. Fleener was one of those players last year. 

[Gavin]

People forget he only had 48 targets all year long...To put that into perspective, Rob Gronkowski had 55 CATCHES and 79 targets

[rittdk01]

Fleener will be fine, the bad OL affected more than just Luck and the passing game. It also forced TE's to stay tight and block.

BTW, Fleener and Allen both had butterfinger hands last season. I don't get why Fleener is the only TE catching heck.

Allens hands, routes, blocking and overall production were far superior in year one to Fleeners. Allen didnt have butter fingers in any case. Allen also got good yards after the catch for Fleeners size he played soft in this respect and definately in blocking. They drafted the last pick TE Cunningham because he is a great blocker and will replace Fleener when the situations call for it.

Two spots out of the first round Fleener was a yr one flop. The Colts thought they were getting Gronk and didnt get anything close. This is a new year and I have far from given up on Fleener but he needs to improve a ton to justify his high draft position.

Can't blame Colts fans for being impatient Jerry Hughes and Donald Brown kinda make us uneasy when the high picks struggle.

[xMarvin88x]

Fleener will come into his own. God our team is so young.. and talented. 

[CR91]

anyone that says fleener had a bad year doesnt understand football. a TE isnt just a pass catching hes also a blocker and when your o-line is a revolving door, you better believe we're gonna keep our TEs on the line to block. add in the fact that he missed 4 games and how luck has to keep reggie happy along with his other weapons.

[John Dee]

Allens hands, routes, blocking and overall production were far superior in year one to Fleeners. Allen didnt have butter fingers in any case. Allen also got good yards after the catch for Fleeners size he played soft in this respect and definately in blocking. They drafted the last pick TE Cunningham because he is a great blocker and will replace Fleener when the situations call for it.

Two spots out of the first round Fleener was a yr one flop. The Colts thought they were getting Gronk and didnt get anything close. This is a new year and I have far from given up on Fleener but he needs to improve a ton to justify his high draft position.

Can't blame Colts fans for being impatient Jerry Hughes and Donald Brown kinda make us uneasy when the high picks struggle.

Allen was in his comfort zone all of last season.   He can block, so there was no adjustment period for him.

 

Fleener is not a good blocker, and why would Indy draft him to block?   Yet they did, this is another reason i am glad Arians is way on down the road in Arizona.     He doesn't like to throw to the TE.     

 

You don't draft Fleener and then not use him in a way he can succeed. 

 

Fleener is 9 lbs lighter this season, Pep will utilize him the way he knows how.  Not going to be seeing Fleener in tight blocking this season.

[TKnight24]

Allen was in his comfort zone all of last season. He can block, so there was no adjustment period for him.

Fleener is not a good blocker, and why would Indy draft him to block? Yet they did, this is another reason i am glad Arians is way on down the road in Arizona. He doesn't like to throw to the TE.

You don't draft Fleener and then not use him in a way he can succeed.

Fleener is 9 lbs lighter this season, Pep will utilize him the way he knows how. Not going to be seeing Fleener in tight blocking this season.

With that disgraceful unit we called an offensive line Fleener had no choice but to block. But those days are over for him now. He may chip block here or there. But he'll be mostly a receiver this season. It's just up to Luck to find him this year

[rittdk01]

With that disgraceful unit we called an offensive line Fleener had no choice but to block. But those days are over for him now. He may chip block here or there. But he'll be mostly a receiver this season. It's just up to Luck to find him this year

and its up 2 fleener to run his routes correctly and not drop the ball more than he catches it this year. Gotta be able 2 block as a TE. Gronk is the best and he is also a fantastic blocker.

btw Bradshaw ia the very best blocking running back in the NFL so u better believe that was a big reason ythe Colts got him. The offense starts with the QB and he has to have time 2 b effective. The running backs and te's are also a part of the protection.