The Sheriff vs. Shady Tom Brady - 10-7-12 - 4:25 EST

[Jules]

You know FJC, that is a great point: What prompted Wayne to stay in INDY? His familiarity with Chuck Pagano at Miami? Enjoying the community of Indianapolis and her citizens immensely as a place to live, work, and play? Given his age, most WR's don't wanna hit the reset button with a rookie QB...How hard was the sales pitch from Manning for #87 to relocate to Mile High? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he stayed put. I just love hearing about famous people and their true motivations I guess.

I think Wayne loves the Colts and his familiarity with Pagano was big too. I also think he wanted to prove he was not just "a product of working with Manning." He might not say this out loud but I think that played in there.

Some felt he was rumored to be headed to NE too. There again, he would have gone from Manning to Brady and people would just give credit to the star QBs.

Wayne is a beast, period. And he is proving that this season even with a rookie QB (and this rookie QB himself is a stud so that helps a bit too).

[southwest1]

I think Wayne loves the Colts and his familiarity with Pagano was big too. I also think he wanted to prove he was not just "a product of working with Manning." He might not say this out loud but I think that played in there.

Some felt he was rumored to be headed to NE too. There again, he would have gone from Manning to Brady and people would just give credit to the star QBs.

Wayne is a beast, period. And he is proving that this season even with a rookie QB (and this rookie QB himself is a stud so that helps a bit too).

Can you imagine if Wayne became a Patriot and Welker became a Colt? Both franchises would be conducting an elaborate NFL debriefing for days. What does Belichick fear most? What schemes present the most problems for his squad? What flutters Brady the most and why? And vice versa for Coach Pagano. God, I love this Horseshoe vs Foxboro rivalry. It's bleeping fantastic due to the premier caliber and outstanding competitiveness of both organizations. I love it!!!

No argument there Jules. Wayne is a beast and a money 1st down WR. #87 is DA MAN in INDY!!!

[Nadine]

I've removed some personal arguments and personal shots from this thread.

Please people, keep your comments within the rules. No personal shots. no inflammatory posting, no baiting.

No personal arguments. Those do not belong in the public forum.

[bayone]

Surely, the supporting cast did not play perfect and had some mistakes, surely, but the Denver Broncos supporting cast is solid . . . maybe not top 5 in the league but solid (btw Mark Sanchez's backup Tebow went 7-4 with that same supporting cast last year, just a little point of fact seeing that we all are concerned about facts) . . .

Your posts on this thread Moose do have a classic "Peyton does it all with no help from his friends" aspect, and flavored with the "Peyton should be credited with just about everything" spice . . . fiar enough whatever floats your boat . . . but appears that you seemed to be of the opinion that things are centered outwardly from Manning and that he is a reason that for Denver's offensive success, as opposed to maybe, just a thought here, the failings of the opposing team's defense . . .

Now I got no problem with how you want to frame the discussion, be it PM greatness or the failing of the opposing D's . .. but if you are going to place the credit in the lap of QB . . . then you might just want to place the success of your opponent's offenses in the first 5 games in the laps of the QB's and not the failing of your defense . . . afterall if one one QB can be the reason for success so can't the opponents QBs . ..

and you guys have faced the following (PPG ranking)

Big Ben and the Pitt off. (#16)

Matt Ryan and the Falcon offense (some are saying he might be a MVP canidate this year) (#6)

Matt Shaubb and the Houston offense (#2)

Oakland (#29 - one of the games you won btw)

Mr. Tom Brady and the pats offense (#1)

so the three games you lost was to the #1, #2, and #6 ranked scoring teams with three of the top say 8 or 10 QBs in the league, and the two games you won were against the middle of the road Steelers and animic Raiders

So before you start going all off on the D as failing, you might want to give some credit to the three opposing teams who seem to have had put up some good scores against the rest of the league . . . just a thought . . .

Obviously its a bit of both,m but as said 7 DC in 7 years not good,, i lose ti op DT to free agency & the one u hope replaces him , a probowl player for Pats gets on IR for 3rd straight year

Thin at LB and the starter u hoped to get back, your best player suspended an aditional 3 games making it 9 in all

Safty thin

CBs thin behind Porter & Baily

The D does have problems and when u cant prevent all those 3rd & long conversions, esp when 1 is at their own 5 yard line & allow a 19 yard run, the 2nd of another similar situation ,then u let them March 4 anothrer TD

sorry that is bad no matter what offense u are i up against

There is also no good depth for substitutions

I am not in any way taking away from Pats , Very Solid all around and now so dangerous with back to back 200 yard run games

[chad72]

hmm . . . the last time I checked my America's Game: the 2006 Colts, the colts beat the Ravens 15-6 in the divisional game, all on FGs, which if my football knowledge serves me correctly, means Mr. Peyton "please irsay give him some help" Manning failed to get the ball into the endzone . . .

But maybe I mixing the the shows up in my head and am thinking of an earlier team . . .

It was a classic case of Peyton's help rising to the challenge for one postseason and one postseason only. We forced turnovers, stops, and ran the ball to control tempo well in the 2006 postseason, that is what won us the SB. Whether it is stopping Billy Volek and Michael Turner while up 24-21 at home vs the Chargers or recovering the onside kick vs the Saints or stopping the Saints with a lead of 17-16 in the 4th qtr. or preserving a 16-14 lead with 1 minute to go vs the Jets, the help failed all those occasions.

It was not like Ellis Hobbs was a lights out KR but we made him look like Devin Hester in the AFCCG, look at the field position the Pats got in the 34-38 AFCCG loss in 2006. Then came the SB Hester return. I could go on and on about our ST or not so special teams.

If Brady and the Pats expected Brady to put up 25 points all the time in the playoffs, then the postseason success for the Pats would have never happened. The Colts were top heavy in quality and salary, and kept rolling the dice for too long with that, IMO. Yes, we broke through for 1 good postseason run but more often, when we had to deal with teams that were more rounded on O, D and ST, we came up short. It is not a myth.

After his initial SB win, Brady had this 6 yr. $60 mil. salary that helped the Pats build pieces around him. Same with Rodgers' QB rookie contract for the Packers, same with Big Ben's middle of round 1 rookie QB contract, same with Brees' "take a chance on him" contract with Saints for 6 yrs. $60 mil.

Peyton being a No.1 pick with no rookie wage scale had a significant impact on the Colts being able to afford more pieces, IMO but however, the Giants managed to do so with Eli's contract better and surround him with better talent than Peyton has had defensively around him. Maybe the Giants did draft better than the Colts, at least since 2006???

[bayone]

Man, I totally forgot about Eddie Royal and Brandon Lloyd. There went the speed factor for the Broncos with both of those. I bet the Broncos wish they could have had some ST play now with Eddie Royal.

& u let Royal go to the SAME DIVISION Chargers Too, just what u need, dumb move in all aspects

[chad72]

& u let Royal go to the Chargers Too, just what u need, dumb move in all aspects

Yep, just like Meachem got 2 TDs vs the Saints, expect Rivers to go down the mdidle to Royal in this game.

[bayone]

Yep, just like Meachem got 2 TDs vs the Saints, expect Rivers to go down the mdidle to Royal in this game.

why not, he knows teams weakness's , has seen pats exploit it, knows we didnt draft anyone to help immediately at LB & Safety there

In General why does Peyton have to throw into tight spaces and u see such wide open receivers against Broncos ???

[Moose Of Woe]

why not, he knows teams weakness's , has seen pats exploit it, knows we didnt draft anyone to help immediately at LB & Safety there

In General why does Peyton have to throw into tight spaces and u see such wide open receivers against Broncos ???

While the pass blocking is better than Indy, it's often not good enough to give time for receivers to get wide open. (IE: New England) When Manning occasionally gets 4+ seconds to throw, you'll see more open targets.

Barring a blown coverage or occasional great move by a receiver, it doesn't really happen. Plus Manning doesn't have a guy like Marv or Reg which tended to catch the ball wherever he threw hit. Decker and Thomas require pretty much a perfect pass.

Stokely is the best receiver on the squad and he's 40 years old out of retirement. That's just sad. None of the Denver receivers/TE's have the speed to get wide open without a lot of time aside from Thomas. Thomas, unfortunately, has other issues.

Tamme runs great routes and has good hands, but he's a TE. Most TE's aren't supposed to be burners who can get wide open. Guys like Gronk and Hernandez are quick, but they're a rare bird. Being quick on top of their their size, strength, hands, and smarts really sets them apart.

[bayone]

While the pass blocking is better than Indy, it's often not good enough to give time for receivers to get wide open. (IE: New England)

Barring a blown coverage or occasional great move by a receiver, it doesn't really happen. Plus Manning doesn't have a guy like Marv or Reg which tended to catch the ball wherever he threw hit. Decker and Thomas require pretty much a perfect pass.

Stokely is the best receiver on the squad and he's 40 years old out of retirement. That's just sad. None of the Denver receivers/TE's have the speed to get wide open aside from Thomas. Thomas, unfortunately, has other issues.

Tamme runs great routes and has good hands, but he's a TE. Most TE's aren't supposed to be burners who can get wide open. Guys like Gronk and Hernandez are quick, but they're a rare bird.

Oh I know the answer , was being sarcastic in my own way, its just a shame , and then even wide open McGee looked up field on possibly the easiest catch of the last game when he dropped it, but even with that , and the fumble for him its rare though truly had bad back to back timing when did it,

not like DT which u have a choice

a ) he led league with dropped passes of 20 % of them a few games back or

b ) he catches these significant long gains and then fumbles them away , 3 games in a row , there are no excuses, I think he should sleep with a football and learn to hug the darn thing all day & night

[Moose Of Woe]

I think he should sleep with a football and learn to hug the darn thing all day & night

The thought of that image in my mind made me chuckle.

[bayone]

The thought of that image in my mind made me chuckle.

That's great

and your answer made me smile, something we all can use anytime anywhere

[bayone]

error

[bayone]

hmm . . . the last time I checked my America's Game: the 2006 Colts, the colts beat the Ravens 15-6 in the divisional game, all on FGs, which if my football knowledge serves me correctly, means Mr. Peyton "please irsay give him some help" Manning failed to get the ball into the endzone . . .

But maybe I mixing the the shows up in my head and am thinking of an earlier team . . .

It was a classic case of Peyton's help rising to the challenge for one postseason and one postseason only. We forced turnovers, stops, and ran the ball to control tempo well in the 2006 postseason, that is what won us the SB. Whether it is stopping Billy Volek and Michael Turner while up 24-21 at home vs the Chargers or recovering the onside kick vs the Saints or stopping the Saints with a lead of 17-16 in the 4th qtr. or preserving a 16-14 lead with 1 minute to go vs the Jets, the help failed all those occasions.

2006 SB run

& if Yehoodi quotes the FG game vs strong Ravens D , well what about when the leadership & points were needed in that championship game Vs Pats for record comeback in such a game

( Yehoodi why do u think BB went on it on the 4th & 2 game , Fear of Peyton plain & simple

2006 SB run The one time Sanders came back & Stayed healthy enough for 4 games

all other times yes the help failed , the surrounding pieces just werent / arent there

[southwest1]

Personally, I think #18 is back right now. The problem is timing, timing, timing with his offensive weapons in Denver. Did I mention timing? I will acknowledge that no one really knows his arm strength ceiling yet. Like I said before, wait until week 7 next season. Then, everyone will know what Peyton's plateau really is IMO.

I heard a number of bloggers say that Denver's defense is suspect. I don't subscribe to that theory because Denver kept Tim Tebow in about 8 games last year. Is Denver's defense San Francisco or the Ravens? No, but it's solid. Not top 10 but with the top 15 I think. If DC Jack Del Rio wasn't there I'd be worried, but Jack will tighten the bolts and fix it IMO.

I like John Fox's commitment to the run game. From his Carolina days and NY Giants days, Fox has always believed in a strong ground game to set up the pass and take pressure off his QB. Fox is old school football and I love that.

[bayone]

Personally, I think #18 is back right now. The problem is timing, timing, timing with his offensive weapons in Denver. Did I mention timing? I will acknowledge that no one really knows his arm strength ceiling yet. Like I said before, wait until week 7 next season. Then, everyone will know what Peyton's plateau really is IMO.

I heard a number of bloggers say that Denver's defense is suspect. I don't subscribe to that theory because Denver kept Tim Tebow in about 8 games last year. Is Denver's defense San Francisco or the Ravens? No, but it's solid. Not top 10 but with the top 15 I think. If DC Jack Del Rio wasn't there I'd be worried, but Jack will tighten the bolts and fix it IMO.

I like John Fox's commitment to the run game. From his Carolina days and NY Giants days, Fox has always believed in a strong ground game to set up the pass and take pressure off his QB. Fox is old school football and I love that.

They had Brunkly ( SP )as Best DT and let him go and let eddie Royal go , a good WR & returner to Chargers yeet and as saidf banked on ex pat DT who now is IRed in preaseason 3 years in a row and also lost starting DE thats why wolfe there, originally wanted wolf as DT up the middle pressure

My Cousin called Papers in NY are saying Peyton Played great, The coaching was lousy as were the players around him

[southwest1]

In the interest of full disclosure, I will admit that is extremely difficult for me to be objective regarding #18 because I respect Peyton so much as a man and how he constantly carries himself with dignity and character. I remember what INDY was like before Peyton was drafted in 1998 a basketball town not a football juggernant. I remember all the "experts" who said Peyton can't win a Championship. I remember all the short sighted fools who said Rex Grossman enabled the Colts to win the SB...It still ticks me off to this day.

Do I want #18 to be the 1st QB in NFL history to win 2 SBs with 2 different franchises? You bet your caboose I do. If that doesn't transpire, Peyton through his grace, honor, and charm will thank all the people who molded his career and played a crucial role in making him a HOF Canton bound QB. Peyton will actually make me and his loyal fan base feel better.

At least, I can admit my deep appreciation for Peyton. If anybody attacks #18 without provocation, I respond aggressively just the same as if you needlessly attack my family or forum friends. I'm very protective of both #18 and my friends. You don't dismiss Peyton, you don't underestimate Peyton, and most of all, you don't forget what Peyton has singlehandedly done for the city of Indianapolis and the Colts. Loyalty means everything to me.

But, I also pride myself on giving praise to Tom Brady, Warren Moon, Joe Montana, Drew Brees and other fantastic QBs too. And, if another team is legitimate like the Texans or the Seattle Seahawks defense, I will tell you that also. And if your squad demolishes my squad, I will admit it and give your team props. If I mess up in my analysis I will say so and I am always willing to listen and learn. Mutual respect that what drives me in my discussions with other bloggers as well. You don't always need to agree with me, but just maintain an aura of respect and a willingness to consider an alternative viewpoint.

[bayone]

"Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack." Sun Tzu

Tell that to Denver & to get better & consistent at both, may take time for chemistry but then again u still have to hold onto the ball

[Yehoodi]

Regarding the offense, and Tebow's record, he didn't play the top 3 teams in the NFL. Not that Tebow could actually throw, but he had Brandon Lloyd and the D played at a much different level than it is now. Unless it's the Patriots, where they gave up like 100 points in two games last season.

It's not all Manning doing the work - guys like Stokely and Tamme do their share. The fact that Manning can have 0 ints, throw for 350 yards, 75% completion and still somehow the team loses leads me to believe Manning is a big reason it's even a football game and not a pounding. (Patriots/Broncos last year x2) Somewhere along the line, a lot of players aren't making plays and winning that football game.

Against weak defenses, I expect Denver to have no issues winning games. Even with stupid blunders along the way.

Does Denver have offensive talent? Sure. Is there enough? Nope.

Manning does need more help. He needs more than a mediocre overall squad if Denver wants to be a contender. A handful of good/great players with a crapton of poor ones (Indy) doesn't make a great team. it makes it mediocre.

In Denver's case, it's mediocre all around as is. There aren't as many individuals like Wayne, Clark, Harrison, Freeney to bring the team up. HOWEVER, all the talent in between the skill players is better.

I do agree with you that the Denver 52 is middle of the road, a say, 4-7 win team with a middle of a road QB, and if you add an elite QB you can add 2-3 wins or so (I was never one sold on an elite QB can give you an extra 6-8 wins) . . . so Denver with Manning should be around a 7-10, 11 win team . . .

But getting back to Manning, the Denver 52, and Tebow . . .I do think that the D52 have help out this year . . .

Before you read more of my post just take a gander that these two points and think for a moment what comes to mind when you see these two things

1) Denver v. Miami in 2011 . . .

2) Denver v. Altanta in 2012 . . .

. . . . now for me #1 speaks of Tebow Time, coming back from the abysis and a 15-0 defiicit to win 18-15 in OT . . .now surely, a lot of credit should go to, and did, to Tebow, but also some credit needs to go to the D, keeping the team within reach (which some correctly said last year) . . .now Tebow did not make any mistakes but nor did he get any points till the end . . .but the D help Mia to just 15 points to give Tebow and opportunity to come back . . .

. . . now if we think about #2, what comes to my mind is really the same thing as #1, the D kept the Falcons at bay so the Denver was able to come back in the 4th. The offense put the D in a tough spot in the first qtr, a ball on the one and one in FG range and all the D did was yeild a TD and FG, which is kind of the O's fault, if you look at the final score it the D only yeild 17 points beyond the spot they were put in by the O (which is not off of the 15 yeilded against Miami, a weaker team) . . . the Falcon's game very likely should of been basically over at half time . . but the D stepped up, held them to only 10 points off TOs, which was going to happen anyways, and then jkust 17 points more . . .

So yah Tebow did not score any point but also did not cause points to be yield against his team, and in both cases the D only yeilded 15 and 17 points . . . .so my point being if we are going to praise the Denver D for helping Tebow in the Miami game we need to do the same and give praise to the Denver D in the Falcons game . . .

Somethings, like linemen and the refs, when we don't hear there name, they are doing a good job . . .likewise the D in the falcons game did a good job . ..

[Yehoodi]

It was a classic case of Peyton's help rising to the challenge for one postseason and one postseason only. We forced turnovers, stops, and ran the ball to control tempo well in the 2006 postseason, that is what won us the SB. Whether it is stopping Billy Volek and Michael Turner while up 24-21 at home vs the Chargers or recovering the onside kick vs the Saints or stopping the Saints with a lead of 17-16 in the 4th qtr. or preserving a 16-14 lead with 1 minute to go vs the Jets, the help failed all those occasions.

It was not like Ellis Hobbs was a lights out KR but we made him look like Devin Hester in the AFCCG, look at the field position the Pats got in the 34-38 AFCCG loss in 2006. Then came the SB Hester return. I could go on and on about our ST or not so special teams.

If Brady and the Pats expected Brady to put up 25 points all the time in the playoffs, then the postseason success for the Pats would have never happened. The Colts were top heavy in quality and salary, and kept rolling the dice for too long with that, IMO. Yes, we broke through for 1 good postseason run but more often, when we had to deal with teams that were more rounded on O, D and ST, we came up short. It is not a myth.

After his initial SB win, Brady had this 6 yr. $60 mil. salary that helped the Pats build pieces around him. Same with Rodgers' QB rookie contract for the Packers, same with Big Ben's middle of round 1 rookie QB contract, same with Brees' "take a chance on him" contract with Saints for 6 yrs. $60 mil.

Peyton being a No.1 pick with no rookie wage scale had a significant impact on the Colts being able to afford more pieces, IMO but however, the Giants managed to do so with Eli's contract better and surround him with better talent than Peyton has had defensively around him. Maybe the Giants did draft better than the Colts, at least since 2006???

The help failed in the playoffs? really . . . is that your position . . .

You do realize that in the 2006 AFCCG, SB 42 and SB 46 the Patriots D allowed the opposition a go ahead score on the last meanful possession of each respective game . . . do you realize this don't you . . . btw, I don't count as a meaningful possession ones that start at or around or under the last minutee of the game and require a TD to win (ot less time and needed just a FG), if you know any instances in which a drive started at that time and started in your end of the field requiring a TD that were successful in any playoff game since the Merger, let me know . . . you are not going many, if any . . . translation it does not happen and I dont hold Brady, Manning or any QB to that standard . . .

But if I wanted to go all nuclear, I could say, "Geez the D costs us three rings" "our supporting cast couldn't make one stop when it counted", I have no problem publicily saying that our supporting cast help out us getting our rings . . .but at the same time, if push comes to shove, we need to look at all things in perspective, SBs 36, 38, 42, and 46, and 2006 AFCCG, and realize those five runs the pats supporting cast help in area but not so much in others . . .

See the supporting case cant help card works both ways . . .I am not going to say that TB deserves 6 rings anymore or less that i am going to chatise or credit PM and his helpers . . .

I do agree with you that the support hasn't help the playoff chances for the colt and mostly in part to your theory, but you gotta put some of the fault on the shoulders of Manning (just as one does with Brady when he makes mistakes, like the off throw to Welker last year, or his interception in the first drive against the jets in 2010, or the redzone pick-six against den in 05)

in the games you sighted

. . . in a few of SD games Manning had some late possessions that ended in punts

. . . in the 2005 divisional game after getting sacked and game over, the D got a once in a generation fumble, and PM drove the field and maybe could of gotten his team closer as the FG attempt went a tad right (well maybe more than a tad)

. . . in the Jet game, Manning missed a key third down play which could of kept the ball in the colts hand and allowed them and their kicker AV to have walk off FG for the win . . .kind of like, wait for it now . . . umm SBs 36 and 38 with that other QB . . .

. . . and in onside kicke SB 44 when they were driving in the 4th for a game tying TD and well . . .

So yes the help did not come to play in some of the games , but we can't discount some of Mannings contributions, pluses and minus, just as with Brady . . .

and lastly if you look back as some of the pats and colts playoff scores, you are going to need to realize that you need to factor in the playing condition and how it effected the scores . . . . and not compare them totalling with apples and apples . . .meaning a D in a raging blitz, or just snow, or the cold, in Foxboro is going to yield fewer points that in a dome like SB 38 and 39 . . . so the fact that the pat's D gave up fewer points than the colts D has to do with both the talent and the location of the game . . . and as such making a direct comparsion between the teams is not completely fair . . .

[Yehoodi]

I give all the credit to the world to the Texans, Falcons, Patriots' offenses. They're fantastic.

That doesn't excuse Denver's failure to generate turnovers and not showing up until the fourth quarter against quality teams. 3rd and 17? On the ground?

To me, a true fan settles for nothing BUT the best for their team. If it comes across as whining or crying to some, so be it. Complacency leads to nothing. Criticism, DRIVE, change, adaptability etc. leads to championships.

i hear ya . . . i think Denver is just a good solid middle of the road team and, as u said, may not as presently constitiuted to have enough to get to the promise land even with a QB the likes of PM . . .

but between the salary cap, things not going well, and just the sine curve of players in and out of a team you may not be able to match up the elite QB with the teams best supporting cast . . . and not be able to get it turned around in a year . . .

look at the pats we got lucky with Hernandez and Gronk, but missed on Graham and Watson . . . lucklily TB's career has spanned both, but if we had hernandez and Gronk in graham/watson's place from 2002-2010, maybe the last decade might of been a tad different . . .

the exciting part for you guys is that you got two teams to cheer for . . .

[Yehoodi]

Obviously its a bit of both,m but as said 7 DC in 7 years not good,, i lose ti op DT to free agency & the one u hope replaces him , a probowl player for Pats gets on IR for 3rd straight year

Thin at LB and the starter u hoped to get back, your best player suspended an aditional 3 games making it 9 in all

Safty thin

CBs thin behind Porter & Baily

The D does have problems and when u cant prevent all those 3rd & long conversions, esp when 1 is at their own 5 yard line & allow a 19 yard run, the 2nd of another similar situation ,then u let them March 4 anothrer TD

sorry that is bad no matter what offense u are i up against

There is also no good depth for substitutions

I am not in any way taking away from Pats , Very Solid all around and now so dangerous with back to back 200 yard run games

ya the Denver 52 are not the best . . . but are middle of the road, hopefully for their sake, PM can help get them farther than last year . . . it is going to be an exciting year . . .

[Yehoodi]

2006 SB run

& if Yehoodi quotes the FG game vs strong Ravens D , well what about when the leadership & points were needed in that championship game Vs Pats for record comeback in such a game

( Yehoodi why do u think BB went on it on the 4th & 2 game , Fear of Peyton plain & simple

2006 SB run The one time Sanders came back & Stayed healthy enough for 4 games

all other times yes the help failed , the surrounding pieces just werent / arent there

I was just point out originally that the ST did help in '06 . . .and yes like the Pats SB 36 and SB 38 runs the offense step up somtimes (SB 38) and the D (SB 36) and STs ('01 AFCCG) . . . so each had a crack at it . . . and like PM and the colts O in '06 AFCCG , TB and the pats O had to help out in SB 38 . . .

as for 4th and 2, there is a lot more to it than many think . . . I actually said my peace about that in another threat in post #128 of that thread

http://forums.colts....h/page__st__120

but bottom line BB was trying to get a conversion to win the game, and if that failed was likely to get another possession and basicially two possession to the colts one at the end of the game . . . but alas, Merriweather, who was cut the following season, decided to tackle Addai as opposed to, like in SB 46, letting the team score to get the ball back . . .

furthermore, we were in prevent D, and it was highly likely going to see the colts back at our 29 in about a minute's time and at that point would only have a minute on the clock and if they did score, would leave less time on the clock, if any, clock to drive and get a FG to erase the oene point deficit . . .

Surelyu manning was a factor in that he would be more effective in driving his team back to the 29 than other QBs, but our game play is to trade FP for time in the hopes of a mistake and then tighten it up when the field get shorter in the Red zone . . .

I for one will take the two for one possession (with the first one having a chance to end the game with just a 2 yard gain) then punting and letting them back to the same spot with just a minute to go and squashing our chances for a additional possession . . .

there is a lot more to things that what one hears on NFLN and is why some people are anaylists and others have been to 8 SBs in one coaching capacity or another . .. things don't aways work out, but if you are constantly playing the percentages in your favor, sticking to the situation and playing situational football as opposed to what the "convention" says, you will, in the long run, have more success . . .

[Yehoodi]

^{That doesn't excuse Denver's failure to generate turnovers and not showing up until the fourth quarter against quality teams. 3rd and 17? On the ground?}

^{I agree that you wish the D to have stopped that run, but sometimes the opponents run plays that might work . .. TB said after the game that the Josh M called that play given the smaller package Denver had in the game and thought it would work . . . so ya u wish the D to stop it, but it was a tactical decision on the part of the pats given what they saw during the game and at the time of the play call . . .}

[southwest1]

i hear ya . . . i think Denver is just a good solid middle of the road team and, as u said, may not as presently constitiuted to have enough to get to the promise land even with a QB the likes of PM . . .

but between the salary cap, things not going well, and just the sine curve of players in and out of a team you may not be able to match up the elite QB with the teams best supporting cast . . . and not be able to get it turned around in a year . . .

look at the pats we got lucky with Hernandez and Gronk, but missed on Graham and Watson . . . lucklily TB's career has spanned both, but if we had hernandez and Gronk in graham/watson's place from 2002-2010, maybe the last decade might of been a tad different . . .

the exciting part for you guys is that you got two teams to cheer for . . .

This is why I respect your analysis Yehoodi. You point out TE like Graham and Watson that you missed out on as a franchise. You can be honest about mis steps that your organization missed the boat on. That is real analysis when you can look at yourself in the mirror and be truthful. That is why I love reading your commentary. Humility begins and ends at home first or, in this case, Foxboro. Bravo Yehoodi!

Maybe Denver needs to take a good hard look at the pieces around Manning. Best case scenario in Denver....Peyton has 3 years in Denver to hoist the Lombardi. 4 if he's lucky, but I think 3 is more accurate. Pat Bowlen and John Elway need to sit down and say "whose an asset here and whose a liability here?" The window is short for #18. Heck, have Manning in the same room with Fox too and say "Peyton, we trust your judgement what do you see as our deficiencies and discrepancies right now? Do you want Pat to go out and get someone specific?" Normally, I don't blur the line between QB and front office decisions, but the clock is ticking and #18 doesn't have long to wait to fill team voids IMO.

[chad72]

The help failed in the playoffs? really . . . is that your position . . .

You do realize that in the 2006 AFCCG, SB 42 and SB 46 the Patriots D allowed the opposition a go ahead score on the last meanful possession of each respective game . . . do you realize this don't you . . . btw, I don't count as a meaningful possession ones that start at or around or under the last minutee of the game and require a TD to win (ot less time and needed just a FG), if you know any instances in which a drive started at that time and started in your end of the field requiring a TD that were successful in any playoff game since the Merger, let me know . . . you are not going many, if any . . . translation it does not happen and I dont hold Brady, Manning or any QB to that standard . . .

But if I wanted to go all nuclear, I could say, "Geez the D costs us three rings" "our supporting cast couldn't make one stop when it counted", I have no problem publicily saying that our supporting cast help out us getting our rings . . .but at the same time, if push comes to shove, we need to look at all things in perspective, SBs 36, 38, 42, and 46, and 2006 AFCCG, and realize those five runs the pats supporting cast help in area but not so much in others . . .

See the supporting case cant help card works both ways . . .I am not going to say that TB deserves 6 rings anymore or less that i am going to chatise or credit PM and his helpers . . .

I do agree with you that the support hasn't help the playoff chances for the colt and mostly in part to your theory, but you gotta put some of the fault on the shoulders of Manning (just as one does with Brady when he makes mistakes, like the off throw to Welker last year, or his interception in the first drive against the jets in 2010, or the redzone pick-six against den in 05)

in the games you sighted

. . . in a few of SD games Manning had some late possessions that ended in punts

. . . in the 2005 divisional game after getting sacked and game over, the D got a once in a generation fumble, and PM drove the field and maybe could of gotten his team closer as the FG attempt went a tad right (well maybe more than a tad)

. . . in the Jet game, Manning missed a key third down play which could of kept the ball in the colts hand and allowed them and their kicker AV to have walk off FG for the win . . .kind of like, wait for it now . . . umm SBs 36 and 38 with that other QB . . .

. . . and in onside kicke SB 44 when they were driving in the 4th for a game tying TD and well . . .

So yes the help did not come to play in some of the games , but we can't discount some of Mannings contributions, pluses and minus, just as with Brady . . .

and lastly if you look back as some of the pats and colts playoff scores, you are going to need to realize that you need to factor in the playing condition and how it effected the scores . . . . and not compare them totalling with apples and apples . . .meaning a D in a raging blitz, or just snow, or the cold, in Foxboro is going to yield fewer points that in a dome like SB 38 and 39 . . . so the fact that the pat's D gave up fewer points than the colts D has to do with both the talent and the location of the game . . . and as such making a direct comparsion between the teams is not completely fair . . .

Let us just talk about Peyton in a vacuum, just based on the 15-6 FG game you were talking about. When your O can run and control tempo, and your D is playing well to force punts and turnovers, why did Peyton really need to wing it just to get to the end zone against the #1 D in the league? Makes no sense. Peyton realized the help was there to show up and did not have to press. You obviously realize those 80 and 90 yard drives Brady could put up in Foxboro during those back-to-back SBs vs the Colts with the help of a running game did take the pressure off a QB, don't you?

I was talking just about the help for Peyton where he lost 4th qtr. leads in his last 4 playoff games, a 24-21 lead in the 2007 Chargers game, a 17-14 lead in the 2008 Chargers game, the 17-16 lead vs the Saints in the 4th qtr. and the 16-14 lead vs the Jets.

I then look at Eli and the Giants. Pats were up 17-9, and the mighty Pats & Brady were shut down the rest of the 3rd qtr. and the entire 4th qtr. for the Giants to win 21-17, so stick your "Peyton did not do enough to get one more first down vs the Jets with a minute to go" theory up your...

A top 5 D in 2007 is supposed to stop Billy Volek and Michael Turner while up 24-21 in the 4th qtr. and heck yeah, I stand by the theory "the help failed". One first down and we beat the Chargers while up 17-14 which was dominated by field position thanks to Robo Punter SCifres having the game of his life. Addai misses a small lane to pick up the first down on 2nd down to make it 3rd and 2, and a back up TE misses his block for a sack, and boom goes Sproles running all over us in OT.

Saints game - yes, I do believe Peyton should not have stared down and made that throw or thrown it to Collie since it was 4 down territory anyway, and after having his comments about protection breakdowns in 2005 twisted to no end, Peyton was not going to say anything about Wayne. In fact, it was Brady who wondered on a radio show why Reggie broke his route a tad sooner. However, I personally believe Brady would not have made that throw.

When you give up the first return KO TD in SB history and the first onside kick after the half in SB history, you know your ST play is not something opposing teams take seriously, even in as big a stage as the SB.

There is something to be said about coaching styles that has influenced how Peyton has played in the playoffs. Time and time again, I see Brady have the confidence to go empty backfield or single RB backed up inside his own 5 and throwing without thinking twice. I always wondered why Peyton was never encouraged to do that. Maybe it is conservative ball that Dungy encouraged but Brady has scored so many TDs recently backed up inside his 5, as recently as the latest SB. Then, I flash back to SB 44 vs the Saints before the half and if Brady was put in that position at his own 1 yard line, he probably spreads the WRs & TEs out and goes on the offensive to get a TD and not just a first down, I am positive Belichick would have him do that. Sean Payton probably got it from Belichick, who got that trait from Bill Parcells. Coaching has to be clearly considered as to why 2 QBs of similar elite caliber were used differently in the same situations during their playoff careers. When Gregg Williams was asked about his aggressive style, he cited Brees as a reason why he felt he could take chances, while the Colts were the literal opposite playing conservative Tampa 2 hoping the opposing QB made mistakes due to a higher number of plays. When the opposing QB had a rounded offense like Brady, or even Rivers at times with a good running game or Brees that dinked and dunked us to death in SB 44, the mistakes never came proving flaws in that theory.

So, the bottom line is, football being the ultimate team sport, Brady's teammates have as much credit and blame to go around like Peyton's do for wins and losses. But I do believe that after 2006, Peyton's numbers in the playoffs and efficiency improved to much better levels that with a better supporting cast, he would have made more noise in the playoffs than his record shows.

[southwest1]

Hey everybody FYI, for those people who didn't get to see the NE/Denver game this Sunday on TV, NFL Network will re-air this game Tuesday night on NFL Reply around 7 or 7:30 P.M. CST.

VL, GoPats, Flying Elvis & all concerned: I will be adding more to my analysis of this game later this week so be sure to check in here later this week.

Point of Order: The Pats/Denver Game is actually tonight Oct. 9, 2012 at 8:30-10:30 P.M. CST. [NFL Network] The Colts/GB is on first at 7 P.M.

[bayone]

I was just point out originally that the ST did help in '06 . . .and yes like the Pats SB 36 and SB 38 runs the offense step up somtimes (SB 38) and the D (SB 36) and STs ('01 AFCCG) . . . so each had a crack at it . . . and like PM and the colts O in '06 AFCCG , TB and the pats O had to help out in SB 38 . . .

as for 4th and 2, there is a lot more to it than many think . . . I actually said my peace about that in another threat in post #128 of that thread

http://forums.colts....h/page__st__120

but bottom line BB was trying to get a conversion to win the game, and if that failed was likely to get another possession and basicially two possession to the colts one at the end of the game . . . but alas, Merriweather, who was cut the following season, decided to tackle Addai as opposed to, like in SB 46, letting the team score to get the ball back . . .

furthermore, we were in prevent D, and it was highly likely going to see the colts back at our 29 in about a minute's time and at that point would only have a minute on the clock and if they did score, would leave less time on the clock, if any, clock to drive and get a FG to erase the oene point deficit . . .

Surelyu manning was a factor in that he would be more effective in driving his team back to the 29 than other QBs, but our game play is to trade FP for time in the hopes of a mistake and then tighten it up when the field get shorter in the Red zone . . .

I for one will take the two for one possession (with the first one having a chance to end the game with just a 2 yard gain) then punting and letting them back to the same spot with just a minute to go and squashing our chances for a additional possession . . .

there is a lot more to things that what one hears on NFLN and is why some people are anaylists and others have been to 8 SBs in one coaching capacity or another . .. things don't aways work out, but if you are constantly playing the percentages in your favor, sticking to the situation and playing situational football as opposed to what the "convention" says, you will, in the long run, have more success . . .

Oh I agree that if made that 1st down on 4th & 2 = game over , just saying doubt BB would of done it against virtually any other QB of that year , showing respect for Peytons ability against the Pat D that day

as far as doing things 1 way as opposed to what the "convention" says, I am a contrarien in may things i do, many times going against what all else is doing works

we are all allowed opinions, sometimes we just need explanations to understand why one has such an opinion

[bayone]

TB and the pats O had to help out in SB 38 . . .

U will Love & I hope laugh with me, this is an apology by me or at least Me admitting a fault, but do to time restrictions from many rushings to & from Dr's, wheel chair van obtaining and meeting an hr prior to Dr appointment for MOM , assisted living visits with mom etc , in other words all the daily crap I have which I know others have to, some worse,

Well I read this so fast in sense that had so many initials that when I got to TB and the pats O had to help out in SB 38 . .I said to myself, Tampa Bay what's he talking about instead of realizing u easily meant Tom Brady

sometimes after so many initials for players or champ games etc etc, my mind just gets lost at speed i am reading

took forever to realize what Denver 52 meant

Know i need to slow down but that's not my life right now , if I want to be here at all, it has to be squeezing this in between multitasking while in pain & refusing to take my Narcotic ( for painful multiple areas of body with joint reconstructions & others with tears & no longer a viable surgical candidate ) & Valium ( Back & Neck post op infection left with Spasms ) prescriptions as would have to drive on them.

My others all are heavy, work on central nervous system and my Drs have no idea how I can even wake up and function at all esp at high level that i do

[Yehoodi]

Let us just talk about Peyton in a vacuum, just based on the 15-6 FG game you were talking about. When your O can run and control tempo, and your D is playing well to force punts and turnovers, why did Peyton really need to wing it just to get to the end zone against the #1 D in the league? Makes no sense. Peyton realized the help was there to show up and did not have to press. You obviously realize those 80 and 90 yard drives Brady could put up in Foxboro during those back-to-back SBs vs the Colts with the help of a running game did take the pressure off a QB, don't you?

I was talking just about the help for Peyton where he lost 4th qtr. leads in his last 4 playoff games, a 24-21 lead in the 2007 Chargers game, a 17-14 lead in the 2008 Chargers game, the 17-16 lead vs the Saints in the 4th qtr. and the 16-14 lead vs the Jets.

I then look at Eli and the Giants. Pats were up 17-9, and the mighty Pats & Brady were shut down the rest of the 3rd qtr. and the entire 4th qtr. for the Giants to win 21-17, so stick your "Peyton did not do enough to get one more first down vs the Jets with a minute to go" theory up your...

A top 5 D in 2007 is supposed to stop Billy Volek and Michael Turner while up 24-21 in the 4th qtr. and heck yeah, I stand by the theory "the help failed". One first down and we beat the Chargers while up 17-14 which was dominated by field position thanks to Robo Punter SCifres having the game of his life. Addai misses a small lane to pick up the first down on 2nd down to make it 3rd and 2, and a back up TE misses his block for a sack, and boom goes Sproles running all over us in OT.

Saints game - yes, I do believe Peyton should not have stared down and made that throw or thrown it to Collie since it was 4 down territory anyway, and after having his comments about protection breakdowns in 2005 twisted to no end, Peyton was not going to say anything about Wayne. In fact, it was Brady who wondered on a radio show why Reggie broke his route a tad sooner. However, I personally believe Brady would not have made that throw.

When you give up the first return KO TD in SB history and the first onside kick after the half in SB history, you know your ST play is not something opposing teams take seriously, even in as big a stage as the SB.

There is something to be said about coaching styles that has influenced how Peyton has played in the playoffs. Time and time again, I see Brady have the confidence to go empty backfield or single RB backed up inside his own 5 and throwing without thinking twice. I always wondered why Peyton was never encouraged to do that. Maybe it is conservative ball that Dungy encouraged but Brady has scored so many TDs recently backed up inside his 5, as recently as the latest SB. Then, I flash back to SB 44 vs the Saints before the half and if Brady was put in that position at his own 1 yard line, he probably spreads the WRs & TEs out and goes on the offensive to get a TD and not just a first down, I am positive Belichick would have him do that. Sean Payton probably got it from Belichick, who got that trait from Bill Parcells. Coaching has to be clearly considered as to why 2 QBs of similar elite caliber were used differently in the same situations during their playoff careers. When Gregg Williams was asked about his aggressive style, he cited Brees as a reason why he felt he could take chances, while the Colts were the literal opposite playing conservative Tampa 2 hoping the opposing QB made mistakes due to a higher number of plays. When the opposing QB had a rounded offense like Brady, or even Rivers at times with a good running game or Brees that dinked and dunked us to death in SB 44, the mistakes never came proving flaws in that theory.

So, the bottom line is, football being the ultimate team sport, Brady's teammates have as much credit and blame to go around like Peyton's do for wins and losses. But I do believe that after 2006, Peyton's numbers in the playoffs and efficiency improved to much better levels that with a better supporting cast, he would have made more noise in the playoffs than his record shows.

whoa ho ho got a lot of stuff there . . . i do my best to respond to all of them . . .

2006 Divsional Game v. Balt . .. . I hear ya about PM's play, but he almost had to do that as opposed to a game plan . . . as it stood i think he threw two picks and on deep in his own end of the field . . . not too far after that Steve McNair threw teh ball into the chest of LBs, i think it was Sessions or Brackett, and but for that gaff by him, that game is closer . . . and you run game wasn't the best . . . for me tho it was something they had to do, as opposed to something that was up in the air and he made the correct decision

as for the bolded portions in your post, I think you might be getting a little excited there and may need to head to the frig and get a Pepsi and take a 30 second breather . . . :wave: (j/k)

well get back to one of your bolden portion . . . i am not so sure what Eli has to do with th subject (altho i think it was a toungue and check comment) . . . i had already mentioned that TB was a little off on the pass to Welker late in SB 46, plus he got injured so i dont fault him for that . . . . but i was just reference the jets game because one, PM or his supportters, should not be so hard on the poeple who came behind them, the special teams and defense, when he was not able to end the game . . . you can't really yell at the teammate when you were not able to do the job and close the game out . . . kind of like Brady's wife complaining about his teammates not being able to catch the ball after he made an off the mark throw . . .

As for SB 44, everyone makes key ints, TB did twice, division game against DEvener 05, that i mentioned and late in SB 38 when a ball throw out of the endzone meant a FG and 8 point lead, instead a pick, no points, and 3 plays later Carolina is in the endzone with a lead and we trailed for the first time since november of that year . . . but that time he recovered . . . but still threw the pick . . .

staying with SB 44 I think it was the right call to run the ball at the end of the half and would agree it would be the same for brady and co. (but thanks for the props) . . . for me to late to really be able to score as you gotta go 98 yards and the chances are low (not like if they had been 4 mins) and the negative side if pass the ball and only take off like 30 secs, NO has the ball at teh 50 with min and half to go and enough time to score a TD . . . but if you run the ball you loose a small chance to score, but you significantly reduce there chance to score a TD (less time) and for them to settle for apossible FG . . .

and yes Mike Scrifies had a career game in the playoff game . . .

[-JJ-]

All I know is Brady picked up the sheriff's badge. Leaving our friend Peyton with the deputy badge of course

[shecolt]

All I know is Brady picked up the sheriff's badge. Leaving our friend Peyton with the deputy badge of course

Call me crazy, but when I read that all I can think of is Eli and the Giants singing, "I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy."

[southwest1]

Off to watch the Patriots/Broncos game now recorded on my DVR. My review will follow either tomorrow or Friday.

Sidebar: Even though I started a Patriots tribute on this site, I am astonished at the "HEAT" Foxboro fans take over the success that your franchise experiences to this day. Just today, I felt compelled to respond to a less than flattering post about your team. NE may be a rival, but I don't hate them. I respect them. In large part to their hierarchy, command structure, and how they conduct themselves on a daily, monthly, and annual basis.

Why can't people just respect another team's remarkable accomplishments? No "shady," "underhanded," or fraudulent practices took place here. Rule infractions or misinterpretations of NFL bylaws maybe, but conspiracy and corruption...Absolutely NOT!!! I just shake my head in disbelief; it's so small and said IMO. Can't people just acknowledge when a team like the Patriots is very good and clicking on all cylinders? I know that if the shoe was on the other foot and the Broncos or Colts played well and won a SB my Foxboro friends might be disappointed, but I know that they would give credit where credit is due because they are honorable individuals and extremely fair too.

[southwest1]

Okay, I just finished watching the Broncos/Patriots game. Here is my official breakdown...

Overall lasting impressions:

--Clearly Denver is not equipped to handle a high tempo, no huddle offense that prevents LB and DE substitutions.

--Ironic: Peyton Manning in INDY used to do this very thing to NE consistently at Lucas Oil Stadium and the RCA Dome. He was a zen master at it.

--Denver defense can't stop NE's running game straight up the middle. The most basic component in football: Stop the run. Gap control assignments and blocking alignment problems.

--If Tom Brady gets under center, it means prepare for a RB play. If Brady gets in shotgun it means prepare for a slant or long pass for some serious yardage downfield.

--Denver defenders: watch NE's WR's and TE's not Brady's eyes. Don't let Gronk, Lloyd, Branch, or Welker slide past you or get behind you. Stay in front of them at all times.

--Denver RB McGhee: Secure the football at all times. Hold it high and tight against your body with 2 hands on the ball with contact as LB's hit you. No fumbles. Ball security always.

--LB Von Miller: Causes Ridley fumble in 4th Qtr., Prevents Bolden TD in 2nd Qtr., Sacks Brady twice=Good game.

--Both Manning & Brady made crucial 2nd half 3rd & 4th down conversions for 1st downs. Very impressive! Brady hit Wes Welker everytime for huge chunks downfield. Still #12's security blanket.

--Manning can make all the throws he has to and WR Demaryius Thomas had a great game despite his 3rd and 5 turnover in the 1st Qtr. Way to maintain focus #88!

--DT Vince Wilfork is a STUD. Always around the football and he either jumps on it or runs for a TD. BIG MEN need respect, props, and love too man. Bravo!!!

--RB Ridley is NE's MVP right now. He is quick, elusive, & small. He wears a defensive line out fast. Leads to hands on hips, bad tackling, & sheer exhaustion. WOW!!!

--RB Woodhead is solid as a rock. Darn good pass blocker and NE's bulldozer back. Put the ball in his hands to run out the clock in the 4th Qtr. IMO. He won't fumble period.

--RB McGhee had a decent game other than that fumble & dropped pass which killed #18's comeback. Don't come down hard on McGhee. He will be fine down the road.

--WR Brandon Stokley is Manning's security blanket. He likes TE Jacob Tammie, but in clutch situations #18 will look at Stokley first. A higher trust factor IMO in vital games.

--Tom Brady & Wes Welker were outstanding! Treat Welker right NE & find a way to use him early & often. Get that man a SB Ring ASAP.

-- Denver DC Jack Del Rio: Stop the run NOW or your squad's Playoff Hopes are dead in the water!!! GAP CONTROL IS MANDATORY!!!

--CBS NFL broadcasters Phil Simms & Jim Nance are AWESOME. Great voices, Great chemistry together, & superb x's & o's analysts of compelling games.

[Yehoodi]

This is why I respect your analysis Yehoodi. You point out TE like Graham and Watson that you missed out on as a franchise. You can be honest about mis steps that your organization missed the boat on. That is real analysis when you can look at yourself in the mirror and be truthful. That is why I love reading your commentary. Humility begins and ends at home first or, in this case, Foxboro. Bravo Yehoodi!

Maybe Denver needs to take a good hard look at the pieces around Manning. Best case scenario in Denver....Peyton has 3 years in Denver to hoist the Lombardi. 4 if he's lucky, but I think 3 is more accurate. Pat Bowlen and John Elway need to sit down and say "whose an asset here and whose a liability here?" The window is short for #18. Heck, have Manning in the same room with Fox too and say "Peyton, we trust your judgement what do you see as our deficiencies and discrepancies right now? Do you want Pat to go out and get someone specific?" Normally, I don't blur the line between QB and front office decisions, but the clock is ticking and #18 doesn't have long to wait to fill team voids IMO.

Thanks for the props SW . . . i always enjoy reading your posts too . . .

Denver is close tho . . .. altho I do think Thomas does has the fumblies . . . But McGhee is a solid runner, so is Tamme and stokley altho old, is still solid . . .. they were able to go 7-4 with Tebow and have a good base, they may only be a player or two from being a great team . . .

[Yehoodi]

U will Love & I hope laugh with me, this is an apology by me or at least Me admitting a fault, but do to time restrictions from many rushings to & from Dr's, wheel chair van obtaining and meeting an hr prior to Dr appointment for MOM , assisted living visits with mom etc , in other words all the daily crap I have which I know others have to, some worse,

Well I read this so fast in sense that had so many initials that when I got to TB and the pats O had to help out in SB 38 . .I said to myself, Tampa Bay what's he talking about instead of realizing u easily meant Tom Brady

sometimes after so many initials for players or champ games etc etc, my mind just gets lost at speed i am reading

took forever to realize what Denver 52 meant

Know i need to slow down but that's not my life right now , if I want to be here at all, it has to be squeezing this in between multitasking while in pain & refusing to take my Narcotic ( for painful multiple areas of body with joint reconstructions & others with tears & no longer a viable surgical candidate ) & Valium ( Back & Neck post op infection left with Spasms ) prescriptions as would have to drive on them.

My others all are heavy, work on central nervous system and my Drs have no idea how I can even wake up and function at all esp at high level that i do

Bayone, thanks for getting back to me . . .sorry for the short hand in my posts . . .i get lazy with typing . . . and ya i have the same problem too when i see shorthand and try to figure out what it means . . . its takes me time too . . . :-) . . .

glad that you are able to free up some time to post here given all of your appointments . . . you always have some great thoughts to add and always seem to fine those hidden articles to post to add to, or start, a discussion . . . :highfive:

[Yehoodi]

Oh I agree that if made that 1st down on 4th & 2 = game over , just saying doubt BB would of done it against virtually any other QB of that year , showing respect for Peytons ability against the Pat D that day

as far as doing things 1 way as opposed to what the "convention" says, I am a contrarien in may things i do, many times going against what all else is doing works

we are all allowed opinions, sometimes we just need explanations to understand why one has such an opinion

yes Manning was a factor and he came in to factor in increasing the likelihood of getting the ball back to the 29, whereas BB would of thought it less likely than another would of brought it back . . .so he was a big contributing factor for the portion of the cost benefit anaylsis to get the ball back to teh 29 . . .my point was kind of think a lot of the media think he was the only sole factor, which i dont agree with . ..

[-JJ-]

Call me crazy, but when I read that all I can think of is Eli and the Giants singing, "I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy."

...touche' ;)

[Gramz]

Call me crazy, but when I read that all I can think of is Eli and the Giants singing, "I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy."

I think this one of the best answer-backs in quite a while. Love it...!!!

[southwest1]

Bayone, thanks for getting back to me . . .sorry for the short hand in my posts . . .i get lazy with typing . . . and ya i have the same problem too when i see shorthand and try to figure out what it means . . . its takes me time too . . . :-) . . .

glad that you are able to free up some time to post here given all of your appointments . . . you always have some great thoughts to add and always seem to fine those hidden articles to post to add to, or start, a discussion . . . :highfive:

I second that thought on Bayone. His compression of the NFL and it's rich history of NFL greats like Johnny Unitas, Deacon Jones, and John Montana his very impressive to me. Barry, to my mind, is the Steve Sabol of Colts Forum. We are lucky to have him on here without question. Barry always digs up hidden gems of historical football relevance. As a historian myself by profession, I always respect the individuals who protect and preserve the bedrock of any agency, organization, or institution. Well done Barry!