Vontae Davis potential "shutdown" corner back

[sixfive]

VD was the Fins top corner last year and I believe Forth or fifth best in the AFC in picks last yr with 4. 4 is a good number, He cant hurt the defense for sure. The tandem of VD and powers will be a shot in the arm if they both can stay healthy. It will take some pressure off of Bethea making all of the tackles in the secondary. I believe VD will cover the # 1 receiver, that will open powers up for some picks. Fingers are crossed. Coltstrong.

[NewColtsFan]

"He's one of those guys that can be a shutdown corner," said Pagano of Vontae Davis, who was picked up in a trade with the Dolphins on Sunday afternoon.

Nice.

The key words in Pagano's quote are.....................................

"can be"....

He didn't say..... IS a shutdown corner.... he said, can be a shutdown corner.

It's now up to Pagano and his staff and Davis himself to make that happen.

[Indyboy757]

Man were talking shuttdown corner an Revis and Champ top15-20 or top 5 and he can be as good as Revis, wow man lets just keep it simple people, and just say Davis is the best corner this team has had over the past 10yrs and that says it all. What Davis can be well thats up to Davis...

[weslo1812]

This is exciting not only because of the talent, ability and size he has but because of how he could improve with Coach Pagono. Remember Pagono's specialty is working with secondary guys. He worked with guys that were just below average type guys and trained and developed them into solid players at thier position either CB or S. So when you combine all this it looks like it could be a good situation. I think his attitude will change now with a new team where he is happy and is gonna get solid coaching. Well have to see but Im defiantley excited!!!

[GoColts8818]

The key words in Pagano's quote are.....................................

"can be"....

He didn't say..... IS a shutdown corner.... he said, can be a shutdown corner.

It's now up to Pagano and his staff and Davis himself to make that happen.

Mostly Davis. There are some real work ethic concerns here which is why Davis was on the market in the first place. This is not a sure thing. This could end up blowing up in the Colts face like Corey Simon did. That's part of why Polian was so careful about signing free agents or making trades. Generally speaking really really really good players never hit the open the market in the NFL. If a player does there is almost always a risk involved of some kind. With that said if Davis embraces this as a fresh start and puts the work in this could end up being a great trade for the Colts. If Davis plays up to this talent He is going to be way more valuable than a second pick. I'll also say this you don't do well in the NFL if you never take a risk.

[NewColtsFan]

Mostly Davis. There are some real work ethic concerns here which is why Davis was on the market in the first place. This is not a sure thing. This could end up blowing up in the Colts face like Corey Simon did. That's part of why Polian was so careful about signing free agents or making trades. Generally speaking really really really good players never hit the open the market in the NFL. If a player does there is almost always a risk involved of some kind. With that said if Davis embraces this as a fresh start and puts the work in this could end up being a great trade for the Colts. If Davis plays up to this talent He is going to be way more valuable than a second pick. I'll also say this you don't do well in the NFL if you never take a risk.

Really nice post by you. Really nice.

Well said.

[John Dee]

Really nice post by you. Really nice.

Well said.

GC really does know how to articulate his thoughts very well...

[unitaswestand]

You should know the rules on this board. If you ever say something optimistic, a "Negative Nancy" will come along and state the obvious "It's only preseason. We don't know until they play in games that count" or "We won't know the impact for three years" or "I would lower your expectations.

As far as I know, 95% of what is said on his is speculation. Colt fans giving their opinions. We can only project what we think will happen. That is a give. So not sure why someone always has to be the Negative Nancy and remind of us of the obvious.

[mystrymaster]

we really need to calm down our expectations of vontae. yes im excited we have another corner to play opposite powers and I expect good things, but some people here not saying you particularly are getting way too excited. some saying the guy is a top 5 cb which is completely absurd. lower your expectations people are else your gonna be very disappointed.

I agree. Vontae is good but he's not elite in any sense of the word. Definitely an upgrade at the CB position, though.

Vontae Davis as of right now is one of the best CB's we have had here in a long time.

Is he an Elite CB right now? Nope, but he does have the talent to be.

We as a fan base have cried out for a CB who can cover for 3-4 seconds because generally that is all our D-line has needed to get to the QB, now we have one (based on past play) and I expect people to be giddy about it.

[Qwiz]

Vontae Davis as of right now is one of the best CB's we have had here in a long time.

Is he an Elite CB right now? Nope, but he does have the talent to be.

We as a fan base have cried out for a CB who can cover for 3-4 seconds because generally that is all our D-line has needed to get to the QB, now we have one (based on past play) and I expect people to be giddy about it.

There's nothing wrong with being giddy. Davis is still not elite, though. Does he have the talent? I guess only time will tell.

[Thewholefnshow28]

we really need to calm down our expectations of vontae. yes im excited we have another corner to play opposite powers and I expect good things, but some people here not saying you particularly are getting way too excited. some saying the guy is a top 5 cb which is completely absurd. lower your expectations people are else your gonna be very disappointed.

People just need to remember there is a reason the Dolphins were willing to get rid of this guy.

There are some very real concerns that he has. I mean this is a guy who showed up drunk to practice down there. That does not scream I am a hard worker. I understand the excitement because even drunk he is better then anything we got now. He definitely has the talent to be our shut down corner and nobody denies that, but it is all upstairs with him.

Do not get me wrong I am salivating at the thought of having a real corner on this team finally, but I also know this could really blow up in Grigson's face.

[oldunclemark]

http://www.fox59.com...olumn?track=rss

This is a really great read about our new corner back.

His first job will be to stop Brandon Marshall....someone he knows well//..

I'm liking this....

[oldunclemark]

We are going to have to come up with a better abbreviation for Vontae's name than 'VD'

for obvious reasons...

[schwamm]

You should know the rules on this board. If you ever say something optimistic, a "Negative Nancy" will come along and state the obvious "It's only preseason. We don't know until they play in games that count" or "We won't know the impact for three years" or "I would lower your expectations.

As far as I know, 95% of what is said on his is speculation. Colt fans giving their opinions. We can only project what we think will happen. That is a give. So not sure why someone always has to be the Negative Nancy and remind of us of the obvious.

I totally get your point, and I've gone around and around with a couple of your negative nancys.

I guess I'm discoving that fans express their interest and passion in the team in all kinds of different ways. Some like to hang their hats on trust, hope and optimism, where others try to "keep it real" and know where the pitfalls are before the season reveals them.

It's not something I'm always good at, but I'm trying to understand that neither direction (or any that may fall somewhere in the middle) defines anyone as a lesser or greater fan than anyone else.

Its all cool.

[mystrymaster]

There's nothing wrong with being giddy. Davis is still not elite, though. Does he have the talent? I guess only time will tell.

Maybe a completely different topic but What is Elite? Is Elite being in the top 5 at your position? top 10? top guy only?

Also as an aside how many corners from last year where better than him?

[Qwiz]

Maybe a completely different topic but What is Elite? Is Elite being in the top 5 at your position? top 10? top guy only?

Also as an aside how many corners from last year where better than him?

Being an elite corner means being the best, no questions asked. It means that whatever side of the field you're on, that particular side is partially or completely ignored by the quarterback from fear of turning the ball over or racking up incompletions. If someone has to ask if a player is elite, more than likely, he isn't. Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Darrelle Revis, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Willis, Arian Foster, Rob Gronkowski, those are just a few examples of elite players. No one ever questions their ability.

As far as what other corners did last year, Asomugha had 35 tackles and 3 interceptions, not counting assists. Revis had 41 tackles and 4 interceptions. Charles Woodson had 62 tackles, 7 ints, and a touchdown. Asante Samuel had 30 tackles, 3 ints, 1 TD. Champ Bailey had 35 tackles and 2 ints. Devin McCourty had 65 tackles and 2 ints. Compared to these others, Vontae had 39 tackles and 4 ints. He claimed that he was a part of the best CB tandem in the league while down at Miami, but he and that secondary gave up 821 yards to Tom Brady alone this past season. The guy has 9 ints in 3 years in the NFL, hardly elite, but he should still have some upside. He's only 24, after all.

[coltsfanatic24]

pagano turned ladarius webb into a top 10 cb, vontae is more talented and physically gifted then webb.

[mystrymaster]

Being an elite corner means being the best, no questions asked. It means that whatever side of the field you're on, that particular side is partially or completely ignored by the quarterback from fear of turning the ball over or racking up incompletions. If someone has to ask if a player is elite, more than likely, he isn't. Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Darrelle Revis, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Willis, Arian Foster, Rob Gronkowski, those are just a few examples of elite players. No one ever questions their ability.

As far as what other corners did last year, Asomugha had 35 tackles and 3 interceptions, not counting assists. Revis had 41 tackles and 4 interceptions. Charles Woodson had 62 tackles, 7 ints, and a touchdown. Asante Samuel had 30 tackles, 3 ints, 1 TD. Champ Bailey had 35 tackles and 2 ints. Devin McCourty had 65 tackles and 2 ints. Compared to these others, Vontae had 39 tackles and 4 ints. He claimed that he was a part of the best CB tandem in the league while down at Miami, but he and that secondary gave up 821 yards to Tom Brady alone this past season. The guy has 9 ints in 3 years in the NFL, hardly elite, but he should still have some upside. He's only 24, after all.

Oh I agree, I don't think he is elite I do however think he is top 15 creaping up towards top 10, you?

[Qwiz]

Oh I agree, I don't think he is elite I do however think he is top 15 creaping up towards top 10, you?

Top 15 no doubt. I want to see how he fits in this defense and how Pagano can coach him up to his full potential.

[mystrymaster]

Top 15 no doubt. I want to see how he fits in this defense and how Pagano can coach him up to his full potential.

Right, name me a time in the recent Colts history that we had a top 20, 25, or even 30 corner on this team?

[Qwiz]

Right, name me a time in the recent Colts history that we had a top 20, 25, or even 30 corner on this team?

Hahaha good point. I think some of your fellow Colts fans might make an argument that Jerraud Powers is a top 25 corner though.

[FightLikeSin]

Hahaha good point. I think some of your fellow Colts fans might make an argument that Jerraud Powers is a top 25 corner though.

No...way...is Powers top 25. Top 40 at best. In fact, I saw an article recently breaking down the top 50 CB's. Justin King and Josh Gordy were ahead of Powers in that article... Not good. lol.

[Qwiz]

No...way...is Powers top 25. Top 40 at best. In fact, I saw an article recently breaking down the top 50 CB's. Justin King and Josh Gordy were ahead of Powers in that article... Not good. lol.

Justin King??? Wow lol. Definitely not good.

[FightLikeSin]

Justin King??? Wow lol. Definitely not good.

That's what I said! Gordy is understandable...but wow...King? Either way...Vontae is a welcome addition to the team.

[mystrymaster]

I would say Powers is one of the top number 2 cornerbacks in the league. He shouldn't be a number 1 and I hope with Davis here now he wont have to be. I do hope though that Pagano does what he did in Baltimore and the CB's played their side of the field much like Marv and Reg used to.

[mystrymaster]

No...way...is Powers top 25. Top 40 at best. In fact, I saw an article recently breaking down the top 50 CB's. Justin King and Josh Gordy were ahead of Powers in that article... Not good. lol.

Where did you see that?

I found this on Football OUtsiders

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2012/worst-cornerback-charting-stats-2011

And Gordy and King's names are littered all over it.

[YOUR GM]

The guy has 9 ints in 3 years in the NFL, hardly elite, but he should still have some upside. He's only 24, after all.

I don't think he's elite [yet] either... but this is a bad argument. Revis only has 10 INT's the past 3 seasons. Is he not elite, either?

[Qwiz]

I don't think he's elite [yet] either... but this is a bad argument. Revis only has 10 INT's the past 3 seasons. Is he not elite, either?

Quarterbacks don't throw at Revis nearly as much as they do Davis, and Revis still managed to get one more than him. Not saying it's a big deal, but these are two completely different players with completely different target totals.

[unitaswestand]

I totally get your point, and I've gone around and around with a couple of your negative nancys.

I guess I'm discoving that fans express their interest and passion in the team in all kinds of different ways. Some like to hang their hats on trust, hope and optimism, where others try to "keep it real" and know where the pitfalls are before the season reveals them.

It's not something I'm always good at, but I'm trying to understand that neither direction (or any that may fall somewhere in the middle) defines anyone as a lesser or greater fan than anyone else.

Its all cool.

Good point. And I hear what you are saying. Negative Nancy's drive me crazy because I think we all know it is preseason. We all know we don't have a crystal ball. We all know it is speculation. Not sure why some people have to constant remind anyone of those things.

[The Peytonator]

Thing is, arguing best/worst Cornerbacks is all relative. Powers rates extremely poorly when you look at the completion percentage he's given up in his career. What these statistics don't take into account is the players coverage scheme. We all know the frustrating coverage Powers has been forced to use. Now that he's allowed to play a little press coverage, he's looked better. Now add Davis into the mix, and Powers will be taking the #2 WR, and should further prove his value.

With Davis, I think we're getting a nasty, physical CB. Very much in the mold of Darrelle Revis. He isn't at Revis' level, but with Pagano he might just make the jump into the elite level. That remains to be seen. But I am the eternal optimist.

[YOUR GM]

Quarterbacks don't throw at Revis nearly as much as they do Davis, and Revis still managed to get one more than him. Not saying it's a big deal, but these are two completely different players with completely different target totals.

Sorry, but this is false as well. Revis was actually targeted MORE than Davis, based off the way the Jets used him. They moved him around and force opposing teams to throw at him, while rolling the help to other DB's.

http://www.footballo...72/vontae-davis

http://www.footballo.../darrelle-revis

Davis Targets

2011: 60

2010: 66

2009: 71

Revis Targets

2011: 79

2010: 55

2009: 96

Once again, this is not to make a case that Davis is better than Revis. Just telling you, your statements are false. Revis was thrown at more and had more opportunities to get interceptions than Davis. What makes Revis so good is his success rate (62% last year), not the number of INT's he gets. This ultimately leads to my original point that number of INT's is a poor way of measuring a DB's overall impact. You saying that Davis only having 9 picks in 3 years somehow proves that he's not elite is flawed logic.

[Qwiz]

Sorry, but this is false as well. Revis was actually targeted MORE than Davis, based off the way the Jets used him. They moved him around and force opposing teams to throw at him, while rolling the help to other DB's.

http://www.footballo...72/vontae-davis

http://www.footballo.../darrelle-revis

Davis Targets

2011: 60

2010: 66

2009: 71

Revis Targets

2011: 79

2010: 55

2009: 96

Once again, this is not to make a case that Davis is better than Revis. Just telling you, your statements are false. Revis was thrown at more and had more opportunities to get interceptions than Davis. What makes Revis so good is his success rate (62% last year), not the number of INT's he gets. This ultimately leads to my original point that number of INT's is a poor way of measuring a DB's overall impact. You saying that Davis only having 9 picks in 3 years somehow proves that he's not elite is flawed logic.

You're missing what I'm getting at completely. Revis being moved around takes away the whole philosophy of a quarterback's decision to not throw at the particular receiver he's covering if he's moved around so much. Rex Ryan is tricky. I'm not saying interceptions is what makes a great DB, it's the cover skills, and the ability to take away an entire side of the football field. My mention of Vontae having only 9 ints was only a very minimal part of my overall argument. And of course this isn't a case about who is better...both of us would have to be on something to even suggest that Vontae Davis is better than Revis.

[YOUR GM]

You're missing what I'm getting at completely. Revis being moved around takes away the whole philosophy of a quarterback's decision to not throw at the particular receiver he's covering if he's moved around so much. Rex Ryan is tricky.

But.... that isn't what you were getting at. It only became part of your argument after I brought it to your attention. Don't mean to be argumentative but... it is what it is. You said Vontae wasn't elite and cited his interception totals as evidence of such. Then you said Revis's interception totals aren't high because he wasn't targeted as much as Vontae. Both are false. Both are bad foundations for your argument.

I'm not saying interceptions is what makes a great DB, it's the cover skills, and the ability to take away an entire side of the football field. My mention of Vontae having only 9 ints was only a very minimal part of my overall argument. And of course this isn't a case about who is better...both of us would have to be on something to even suggest that Vontae Davis is better than Revis.

Yes, but i think the advanced stats that I linked in my previous post prove that Vontae is not that far off from being elite. When you compare his numbers from last year to corners with a long reputation of being elite, you'll see he's actually not that far off. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, us Colts fans have a reason to be excited because we did just land a player capable of being elite very soon if he keeps his head straight.

And I'm not saying this based purely off of his potential, either... I'm basing this off his body of work to date (which is already impressive, IMO)

Anyways, time will tell, like you said....

[colts 101]

maybe he's not a "shutdown corner", but he's a heck of alot better than anyone we had backing up Powers before the trade..

If the coaching staff does their job and he hangs with the right guys, I think we have a winner on our hands.

[Warhorse]

You should know the rules on this board. If you ever say something optimistic, a "Negative Nancy" will come along and state the obvious "It's only preseason. We don't know until they play in games that count" or "We won't know the impact for three years" or "I would lower your expectations.

As far as I know, 95% of what is said on his is speculation. Colt fans giving their opinions. We can only project what we think will happen. That is a give. So not sure why someone always has to be the Negative Nancy and remind of us of the obvious.

Negative Nancy makes me Attitudy Judy.

[Qwiz]

But.... that isn't what you were getting at. It only became part of your argument after I brought it to your attention. Don't mean to be argumentative but... it is what it is. You said Vontae wasn't elite and cited his interception totals as evidence of such. Then you said Revis's interception totals aren't high because he wasn't targeted as much as Vontae. Both are false. Both are bad foundations for your argument.

Yes, but i think the advanced stats that I linked in my previous post prove that Vontae is not that far off from being elite. When you compare his numbers from last year to corners with a long reputation of being elite, you'll see he's actually not that far off. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, us Colts fans have a reason to be excited because we did just land a player capable of being elite very soon if he keeps his head straight.

And I'm not saying this based purely off of his potential, either... I'm basing this off his body of work to date (which is already impressive, IMO)

Anyways, time will tell, like you said....

His interceptions, once again, were an after thought and something not nearly as important as what you seem to think I believe. Vontae has potential, that's no doubt, but you can't just accurately predict that a player is going to be elite. I look forward to seeing how he shapes up in this defense.