Grigson making too many trades?

[cbear]

So far, I believe it's been 6th, 7th rounders, and players we didn't really want anyway, so I don't really care. What I DO care about are the guys we're getting in return. Yes, you aren't going to get an all-star at that price, but they should be serviceable at the least. DJ Johnson, Stanton, Vaughn, Winston, Gordy, Fokou, Lloyd, who else?? Jury is still out on most of them IMO.

[Coffeedrinker]

Give it some time Coffee i understand

I am giving it time and that is why I didn't make any definitive statements about his trade.

where its coming from i just don't believe these moves are bad in any phase.

Same thing give it time.

KT was more of an off corner that didn't like getting dirty that had some potential but he was a very fragile player.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about KT but there was nothing his is play that indicated he didn't like to get dirty or tackle, those were two of the reasons he was drafted in the 3rd round was because of his willingness and ability against the run. He is better suited for zone than man though.

I'm a firm believer that the deeper the secondary is the better. Its a passing league and i for one would like to see some tenacity at that position.

But a team will only carry so many CBs and the CBs they have traded for are a dime a dozen variety.

[Coffeedrinker]

So what? Grigson has to trade for starters only?

When you trade for a guy and pencil him in as the starter and then he shows he's not ready to be a starter (Justice) or gets beat out by another player (Vaughn) then that is not good.

[Rblake]

I think we should continue to let Grigson do his job as he sees fit.

[Coffeedrinker]

The only one of those moves I have an issue with is the Kevin Thomas trade, but even that one I think you're misclassifying. Every trade doesn't have to be for a starter. Inside backer was one of the thinnest spots on the roster before that trade, and since, we lost Angerer for six weeks.

I'm not syaing anything about trading for a starter, but one of those LBers should have at least been a back up and now they are the back-up to the back-up (Freeman).

I don't know how you figure the Eagles won the Justice trade.

I don't have to know who the Eagles got to know who won the trade... I know who the Colts got... Justice and he was penciled in as the starter and he's not starter material.

T.Y. Hilton isn't going to be graded in comparison with Lavon Brazill. He should be graded on how he does on the field, and he's done fine, with the exception of one dropped pass. He has the potential to be a big time playmaker. No complaints with that trade.

That is not true, he may be graded by the fans and the news by what he does but that doesn't really matter. When it comes time for the coaches to send someone onto the field they are going to send the player that has done better and so far that has been Brazill. I don't think Hilton has done bad but he's been outplayed by Brazill.

The trades for Cassius Vaughn and others are pretty irrelevant as well, low level, back end trades that added depth at positions we had none at.

Adding a player is not the same as adding depth.

Even if all those trades turn out to be bad, it's not like we gave up anything of value for any of them. The most valuable asset we parted with was Kevin Thomas. None of these moves have the potential to seriously hamper the team moving forward.

That is beside the point, if all these trades turn out to be bad it will show that Grigson has a lot to learn on player evaluation and trade value. Also those draft positions do have value... that 6th round pick could be the next Bethea, that 5th round pick could be the next Charlie Johnson, that 7th round pick could be the next quality role player. Those positions do have value.

[Coltswarriors]

No. Grigson is improving the team.

Now, if he starts shipping out first rounders & 2nd rounders every year like the Raiders, then I might start to get worried, but right now? Not at all.

[mystrymaster]

But a team will only carry so many CBs and the CBs they have traded for are a dime a dozen variety.

But both if those dime a dozen CB's where better than some of our CB's or at least appear to be right now.

[Coffeedrinker]

But both if those dime a dozen CB's where better than some of our CB's or at least appear to be right now.

That sentence is pretty hard to understand but they are better based on what?

That's not really the point, I'm sure there is something, someone likes about those players, the point is are those players really better? The answer is, I don't know.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned some of the evidence we have seen up to this point causes me a little concern about Grigson's ability to improve the team with these trades, Justice and Vaughn are two examples, McGlynn as a free agent is another example.

I understand people being excited by the activity, all I'm saying is the activity is meaningless if it does not improve the team and, IMO, the early indications are Grigson is pretty hit and miss with his selections.

[Coffeedrinker]

No. Grigson is improving the team.

Based on what exactly?

See that's just it, I'm not saying he's hindering the team, I'm saying I don't know but there are some concerns based on the early production of some of those trades.

[funktacious2]

I have become a tad concerned with Grigson's tendency lately to make trades for players of questionable value for future draft picks. Granted, the latest acquisition, Gordy, was for an undisclosed draft pick. But I think we should be careful about mortgaging away the team's draft picks so liberally. Thoughts?

I can understand your concern, but then I remember all the 6-7th round busts out there.

[basketballsteve]

I have become a tad concerned with Grigson's tendency lately to make trades for players of questionable value for future draft picks. Granted, the latest acquisition, Gordy, was for an undisclosed draft pick. But I think we should be careful about mortgaging away the team's draft picks so liberally. Thoughts?

If Grigson has made trades for multiple players that will not make the rooster then maybe there is reason for concern but we don't that yet so I am waiting to see. I guess I am not concerned.

[Coltswarriors]

Based on what exactly?

See that's just it, I'm not saying he's hindering the team, I'm saying I don't know but there are some concerns based on the early production of some of those trades.

I guess I should have said he's attempting to improve the team.

Polian didn't. He stuck with what we had knowing we had glares on the defensive side or whatever. Grigson is willing to make moves in or to improve the team.

So far Justice has worked out for us, I'd say. Definitely fills a need.

[Coffeedrinker]

I guess I should have said he's attempting to improve the team.

True, I believe that is what he's attempting to do.

Polian didn't. He stuck with what we had knowing we had glares on the defensive side or whatever. Grigson is willing to make moves in or to improve the team.

That is not true. Polian would sign free agents every year, he made trades but he was leary of them and for good reason... he knew that teams rarely will trade a player if that player has the potential to make an impact for the team.

So far Justice has worked out for us, I'd say. Definitely fills a need.

How has justice worked out? He is an average RT at best. That is not working out.

[GoColts8818]

To this point, Grigson has been excellent in his decision making and managing of this team. If he is working the lines for a blockbuster trade, then I believe this trade will work in our favor. I love everything about the approach we are taking to win NOW. If we give up high draft picks now to get a proven winner, then expect us to make a big splash in free agency. This regime has multiple approaches to build our team and make us better and I love it. Stay aggressive Grigson!!!!!

That is easy to say when they haven't played a real game yet my guess is if this team has say another 2-14 season people wont be as high on grigson. I am not saying they will go 2-14 either I am just saying people are being a little pre mature in judging him one way or another.

[Coltswarriors]

That is not true. Polian would sign free agents every year, he made trades but he was leary of them and for good reason... he knew that teams rarely will trade a player if that player has the potential to make an impact for the team.

How has justice worked out? He is an average RT at best. That is not working out.

No, it is true. Polian pick ups were never worth anything. The only memorable ones that ever made any impact was McFarland & Simon, which both were many years ago. Vinatieri has worked out too. The last couple years Polian didn't do anything to improve our problems. Even knowing our defense has been average he didn't try to improve it.

We had nothing at RT. Bringing in Justice gives us something and is clearly the best option rather then going with whatever we would of had without Justice.

[Coffeedrinker]

No, it is true. Polian pick ups were never worth anything. The only memorable ones that ever made any impact was McFarland & Simon, which both were many years ago. Vinatieri has worked out too. The last couple years Polian didn't do anything to improve our problems. Even knowing our defense has been average he didn't try to improve it.

Well them and then there was also Bratzke, Walt Harris, Nick Harper, Biscuit, Brock, Reagor to name a few. Last year alone he signed Sims, Anderson, Brayton, Collins, Harris.

We had nothing at RT. Bringing in Justice gives us something and is clearly the best option rather then going with whatever we would of had without Justice.

So that was the only choice in the offseason... Justice or nobody? Somehow I don't think that's the case.

But using that "logic" then every move Polian(or any GM) has ever made was the correct one because whoever the player was it gave the Colts(or team) something and was clearly the best option rather than going with what they would have had without that player.

[Andy]

If they're good trades, then no, he's not.

[Coltswarriors]

Well them and then there was also Bratzke, Walt Harris, Nick Harper, Biscuit, Brock, Reagor to name a few. Last year alone he signed Sims, Anderson, Brayton, Collins, Harris.

Did Sims help us at all last year? Could say he did a litte, but he was injured. Not a great pick up.

Did Anderson help us at all last year? Out of all the ones you named, he probably did the most. Average pick up.

Did Brayton help us at all last year? No. Not a great pick up.

Did Collins help us at all last year? Yes, if the goal was to lose every game and get Luck, no if we were trying to win games. Bad pick up.

Did Harris help us at all last year? No, didn't even make the team.

[smittywerb]

I mean, it's not like he has been trading away valuable picks. I am actually happy that Grigs is active. There hasn't been a move that he has made that I didn't like yet.

[Coffeedrinker]

Did Sims help us at all last year? Could say he did a litte, but he was injured. Not a great pick up.

Bringing in Sims gave the Colts something and was clearly the best option rather then going with whatever they would of had without Sims.

Did Anderson help us at all last year? Out of all the ones you named, he probably did the most. Average pick up.

Bringing in Anderson gave the Colts something and was clearly the best option rather then going with whatever they would of had without Anderson.

Did Brayton help us at all last year? No. Not a great pick up.

Bringing in Brayton gave the Colts something and was clearly the best option rather then going with whatever they would of had without Brayton.

Did Collins help us at all last year? Yes, if the goal was to lose every game and get Luck, no if we were trying to win games. Bad pick up.

Did Harris help us at all last year? No, didn't even make the team.

It really doesn't matter if it was a good signing or a bad signing. You stated that Grigson is good because he is signing players and Polian was bad because he didn't sign players. All I did was point out that Polian signed plenty of players. And you can't really compare which was more effective because you are using your hindsight and comparing that to your hopes.

Also I found it funny that people want to act like Grigson took over a team that had been wallowing around in the basement for years. Not a team that was two years removed from the SB and one year removed from being considered a favorite to get the the SB in 2010.

[Superman]

I'm not syaing anything about trading for a starter, but one of those LBers should have at least been a back up and now they are the back-up to the back-up (Freeman).

How is that a negative mark against the trade? That's a positive for the acquisition of Freeman. Says nothing about how good Fokou and Lloyd are, and they've been pretty good through two games. As of right now, they are both backups, to Conner and Freeman.

I don't have to know who the Eagles got to know who won the trade... I know who the Colts got... Justice and he was penciled in as the starter and he's not starter material.

Okay, the Eagles got a kick returner who won't even make it past first cuts (ihypothetically). We got a player who has started several games at right tackle, and who didn't look bad against the Steelers. How can you say that it doesn't matter who they got in return? If we have a player who is more valuable, we won the trade.

That is not true, he may be graded by the fans and the news by what he does but that doesn't really matter. When it comes time for the coaches to send someone onto the field they are going to send the player that has done better and so far that has been Brazill. I don't think Hilton has done bad but he's been outplayed by Brazill.

How is that a referendum on the trade for Hilton? We got a good player that we wanted. Even if Brazill is better, how does that make the Hilton trade bad?

Adding a player is not the same as adding depth.

That is beside the point, if all these trades turn out to be bad it will show that Grigson has a lot to learn on player evaluation and trade value. Also those draft positions do have value... that 6th round pick could be the next Bethea, that 5th round pick could be the next Charlie Johnson, that 7th round pick could be the next quality role player. Those positions do have value.

Yes, sometimes back end picks turn into to great players. Most often, they're out of the league within two years. So do we really value them so greatly that we won't part with them if we can make the team better now?

[Coltswarriors]

It really doesn't matter if it was a good signing or a bad signing. You stated that Grigson is good because he is signing players and Polian was bad because he didn't sign players. All I did was point out that Polian signed plenty of players. And you can't really compare which was more effective because you are using your hindsight and comparing that to your hopes.

Also I found it funny that people want to act like Grigson took over a team that had been wallowing around in the basement for years. Not a team that was two years removed from the SB and one year removed from being considered a favorite to get the the SB in 2010.

Where did I state Grigson was good? I clearly stated that he's willing to improve the roster.

All those guys you just mentioned WEREN'T the best option than what we had. They were added for depth and ended up starting because of injuries. And played average at best.

I also find it funny that people don't realize the roster WAS "wallowing around in the basement for years" and was completely hidden because of how great Manning was for us. It showed last year. Polian was fired because our team sucked last year and was unable to add great players around Manning.

[GoColts8818]

True, I believe that is what he's attempting to do.

That is not true. Polian would sign free agents every year, he made trades but he was leary of them and for good reason... he knew that teams rarely will trade a player if that player has the potential to make an impact for the team.

How has justice worked out? He is an average RT at best. That is not working out.

Justice has looked better than Link at right tackle (who I don't just blindly hate like some do) which would mean he's an upgrade over last year which would mean he worked out. Is he a pro-bowler or ever going to be? No probably not and he might be a one year player here but if it upgraded the team for this year you can argue that it worked on some level.

[Balzer40]

Justice has looked better than Link at right tackle (who I don't just blindly hate like some do) which would mean he's an upgrade over last year which would mean he worked out. Is he a pro-bowler or ever going to be? No probably not and he might be a one year player here but if it upgraded the team for this year you can argue that it worked on some level.

I agree and quite frankly, I'm a little taken aback with some of our fans. They act as if its possible for our O-line or more specifically each member of our O-line to win every single snap and completely dominate every play. It seems absurd to me. Not the greatest O-line ever assembled is going to win every battle on every snap. Justice has done fine IMO, along with the rest of the line(with the possible exception of McGlynn) and even he deserves more of an opportunity since he was injured very early in the 1st preseason game. I guess I would just expect a little more patience from our fanbase, but I guess thats too much to ask.

[Coffeedrinker]

How is that a negative mark against the trade? That's a positive for the acquisition of Freeman. Says nothing about how good Fokou and Lloyd are, and they've been pretty good through two games. As of right now, they are both backups, to Conner and Freeman.

Okay, the Eagles got a kick returner who won't even make it past first cuts (ihypothetically). We got a player who has started several games at right tackle, and who didn't look bad against the Steelers. How can you say that it doesn't matter who they got in return? If we have a player who is more valuable, we won the trade.

How is that a referendum on the trade for Hilton? We got a good player that we wanted. Even if Brazill is better, how does that make the Hilton trade bad?

Adding a player is not the same as adding depth.

Yes, sometimes back end picks turn into to great players. Most often, they're out of the league within two years. So do we really value them so greatly that we won't part with them if we can make the team better now?

Where did I state Grigson was good? I clearly stated that he's willing to improve the roster.

All those guys you just mentioned WEREN'T the best option than what we had. They were added for depth and ended up starting because of injuries. And played average at best.

I also find it funny that people don't realize the roster WAS "wallowing around in the basement for years" and was completely hidden because of how great Manning was for us. It showed last year. Polian was fired because our team sucked last year and was unable to add great players around Manning.

Justice has looked better than Link at right tackle (who I don't just blindly hate like some do) which would mean he's an upgrade over last year which would mean he worked out. Is he a pro-bowler or ever going to be? No probably not and he might be a one year player here but if it upgraded the team for this year you can argue that it worked on some level.

This way I don't have to repeat myself.

I can't stand Link I don't think he's an NFL caliber player. Justice has not been significantly better and just because he's an upgrade (arguably) over Link does not mean he has worked out for the team. Justice did not look good against the Steelers and he's looked even worse against the Redskins. By that logic, Link started over Diem so he was an upgrade so he worked out for the team.

As far as Polian having the team wallowing in the basement that is complete hogwash and revisionist history. You don't have double digit wins and playoff appearances 9 years in a row with one player and a bad roster. It just doesn't happen.

I don't get the comment about the players starting because of injuries... they were the best the Colts had for that situation, according to the previous logic they were then all good moves.

Again I'm not saying the trades are good or bad. We don't know yet. Just a couple of his big trades (Justice) don't look that great at the moment.

[GoColts8818]

This way I don't have to repeat myself.

I can't stand Link I don't think he's an NFL caliber player. Justice has not been significantly better and just because he's an upgrade (arguably) over Link does not mean he has worked out for the team. Justice did not look good against the Steelers and he's looked even worse against the Redskins. By that logic, Link started over Diem so he was an upgrade so he worked out for the team.

As far as Polian having the team wallowing in the basement that is complete hogwash and revisionist history. You don't have double digit wins and playoff appearances 9 years in a row with one player and a bad roster. It just doesn't happen.

I don't get the comment about the players starting because of injuries... they were the best the Colts had for that situation, according to the previous logic they were then all good moves.

Again I'm not saying the trades are good or bad. We don't know yet. Just a couple of his big trades (Justice) don't look that great at the moment.

I disagree if the goal is to make the team better and Justice is better than the player who would be out there if he was not here I would say it worked out. It is not like we traded away a high round pick for him. The expectations are going to be different than if we gave up a high round pick for him if he can come in and be a starter for this team then he was worth the late round pick we gave up for him. If he ends up benched or cut then I would agree it didn't work out but things don't look like they are going that way unless the trade winds are for an OT.

[Superman]

I disagree if the goal is to make the team better and Justice is better than the player who would be out there if he was not here I would say it worked out. It is not like we traded away a high round pick for him. The expectations are going to be different than if we gave up a high round pick for him if he can come in and be a starter for this team then he was worth the late round pick we gave up for him. If he ends up benched or cut then I would agree it didn't work out but things don't look like they are going that way unless the trade winds are for an OT.

We didn't even give up a late round pick. We gave up 16 spots in the 6th round. I honestly can't imagine a situation where the trade for Winston Justice is considered a bad one for us. I think this entire line of criticism is a major stretch.

[Coffeedrinker]

I disagree if the goal is to make the team better and Justice is better than the player who would be out there if he was not here I would say it worked out.

That is a very monoscopic(I don't even know if that's a word but if you break down the parts it portrays my meanings) way of looking at it. To look at it that way, the only choices the Colts had for RT were Linkenbach and to trade a 6th rounder for Justice. And I would agree, if those were the only solutions then Justice would "work out". But since that is not the case in the NFL there were many directions the Colts could have gone combined with the fact that Justice has been playing poorly and is not a significant upgrade over Link then it's hard to say he's worked out. RT is still a position of need and is still a weak spot along the online. That would not be the case if Justice "worked out."

It is not like we traded away a high round pick for him. The expectations are going to be different than if we gave up a high round pick for him if he can come in and be a starter for this team then he was worth the late round pick we gave up for him.

Nope the Colts didn't give up a high pick for him so it's not a super big deal that it doesn't work out.

If he ends up benched or cut then I would agree it didn't work out but things don't look like they are going that way unless the trade winds are for an OT.

If the goal is to improve the team and the team still has a glaring weakness at RT then I'd say it doesn't work out.

[bayone]

Nest year we will have ton of cap space for strud free agents if used right and sign right that fit the team.

With that in mind we cam miss some low round picks as Free agency should ( I hope make an impact and help improve team,

with that in mind, spots that show weakness will help ID the positions to go after in FA & Draft