How Do Colts CBs Stack Up?

[atapcl]

Gil Brandt has criteria on NFL.com about the combine measurables that are target numbers for each position. It seems of the 8 measurables 3 are the most important for CB:Forty, Vertical and Cone. Lets see how we stack up.

The forty should be 4.55 or less. The vertical should be 36" or more. The cone should be 7.00 or less.

Powers - 4.43f, 36.5v,6.91c

Johnson - 4.56f, 34v, 7.04c

King - 4.59f, 36v, 6.87c

Rucker - 4.54f, 33.5v, 6.87c

Thomas - 4.41f, 32.5v, 6.82c

Jackson - 4.37f, 40v, 7.11c

Chism - 4.55f, 31v, 6.83c

Fenelus - 4.44f, 36.5v, 6.67c

Vaughn - 4.42f, 38.5v, 7.23c

Lindsay - 4.56f, ?v, 7.11c

Most of Baltimore CBs ran less than 4.5 and the two starters were under 4.45 for the forty. If forty alone was the criteria then Johnson, King, Rucker, Chism and Lindsay would be cut. If vertical was the most important then Johnson, Rucker, Thomas, Chism and possibly Lindsay (I could not find Lindsay's vertical) would be cut. The cone helps determine if a CB can mirror a receiver and if it is used then Johnson, Jackson, Vaughn, and Lindsay would be cut. There are only two CBs that meet all the criteria, Powers and Fenelus, and both of them are short. There is no criteria for peripheral vission but it is probably the most important. We have to watch game film to see if the players have the vission to stay with receivers. Maybe this is why Grigson is still searching.

[HtownColt]

Gil Brandt has criteria on NFL.com about the combine measurables that are target numbers for each position. It seems of the 8 measurables 3 are the most important for CB:Forty, Vertical and Cone. Lets see how we stack up.

The forty should be 4.55 or less. The vertical should be 36" or more. The cone should be 7.00 or less.

Powers - 4.43f, 36.5v,6.91c

Johnson - 4.56f, 34v, 7.04c

King - 4.59f, 36v, 6.87c

Rucker - 4.54f, 33.5v, 6.87c

Thomas - 4.41f, 32.5v, 6.82c

Jackson - 4.37f, 40v, 7.11c

Chism - 4.55f, 31v, 6.83c

Fenelus - 4.44f, 36.5v, 6.67c

Vaughn - 4.42f, 38.5v, 7.23c

Lindsay - 4.56f, ?v, 7.11c

Most of Baltimore CBs ran less than 4.5 and the two starters were under 4.45 for the forty. If forty alone was the criteria then Johnson, King, Rucker, Chism and Lindsay would be cut. If vertical was the most important then Johnson, Rucker, Thomas, Chism and possibly Lindsay (I could not find Lindsay's vertical) would be cut. The cone helps determine if a CB can mirror a receiver and if it is used then Johnson, Jackson, Vaughn, and Lindsay would be cut. There are only two CBs that meet all the criteria, Powers and Fenelus, and both of them are short. There is no criteria for peripheral vission but it is probably the most important. We have to watch game film to see if the players have the vission to stay with receivers. Maybe this is why Grigson is still searching.

How about can you get a nice jam off the line, stick a receiver stride for stride, recognize route combinations, have good ball skills wether batting it down or int, and have the guts to jump a slant/hitch route every now and again, and a willing tackler. I'm not too big on measurables just 40time height weight and strength. I'm more of a let me sit down and watch and examine a full game of you(not a highlight tape) then I can make a assumption of you type of guy

[buccolts]

Measurables, schmeasurables.

[atapcl]

How about can you get a nice jam off the line, stick a receiver stride for stride, recognize route combinations, have good ball skills wether batting it down or int, and have the guts to jump a slant/hitch route every now and again, and a willing tackler. I'm not too big on measurables just 40time height weight and strength. I'm more of a let me sit down and watch and examine a full game of you(not a highlight tape) then I can make a assumption of you type of guy

If you noticed I did say we have to watch game film. Gil Brandt is a respected personel man and I also believe measurables mean something, but each to his own.

[bahhummbug]

Measurables, schmeasurables.

Same here on measurables watch alot of film and 40 times do not matter alot.Some guys can play faster in game with ball skills stiff arm at line and instincts.40 time might matter if your on Wallace but some nice line work can throw him off his game..

[Smonroe]

If you noticed I did say we have to watch game film. Gil Brandt is a respected personel man and I also believe measurables mean something, but each to his own.

Yep, obviously measurables aren't the end all, but they wouldn't be measured if they didn't mean something. Game play/tape is by far the most important factor, we all know that.

But if you take the best CBs in the league they'd fall into the top of the measurables category on average. So it makes sense that if you're looking for a good CB you'd use those criteria.

[TKnight24]

Those don't really matter. Yeah Speed is an assest, but Skill is MOST Important. The Cone & Vert aren't really important. As long as you can Deflect or Catch a Ball, your Bunnies don't really matter. It'd be nice to have Nice Verts, but most of our CB's are Short. So based on Skill, our line-up should be #1- Powers #2 Rucker (Love his physical style of play & coverage) & Slot- Chism or Vaughn (Either one would be a Good Fit)

[TKnight24]

And Grigson needs to Stop acting like he's gonna have a DREAM Team his 1st Year here. If you work with Chism, Vaughn & Rucker..... they all could be Great CB's. This is why we won't get anywhere. They won't work with what they have. Our young players can't get any better if every 5 seconds, we're tryna bring someone NEW in. You cannot get better if people keep doubting you or you don't touch the field because someone NEW keeps coming in. Work with what you have, & make something of it !!!! Stop being so QUICK to find someone NEW

[hawkeyes]

Sadly, they dont stack up ... I'm still hoping we can pull of a trade and/or pick some skilled backs up!

[atapcl]

Baltimore's DBs

Brown-cb 4.37f,39.5v,6.50c

Gorrer-cb 4.40f,35.5v,6.90c

Smith-cb 4.42f,37.0v,6.93c

Webb-cb 4.35f,36.5v,6.77c

Williams-cb 4.43f,32.5v,6.94c

Giants CBs

Webster-4.50f,39v,6.91c

Ross-4.44f,34v,6.72c

Blackmon 4.47f,41v,6.69c

Amakamura 4.38f,38v,6.97c

Forty Niners starting CBs

Rogers 4.44f,40.5v,6.48c

Brown 4.42f,33.5v,7.00c

A lot of criteria is needed to judge CBs as athletes like height, weight, arm length, etc. I chose the forty, vertical, and cone as a few to give those interested a snap shot of what Grigson and Pagano may be looking at.

[chad72]

And Grigson needs to Stop acting like he's gonna have a DREAM Team his 1st Year here. If you work with Chism, Vaughn & Rucker..... they all could be Great CB's. This is why we won't get anywhere. They won't work with what they have. Our young players can't get any better if every 5 seconds, we're tryna bring someone NEW in. You cannot get better if people keep doubting you or you don't touch the field because someone NEW keeps coming in. Work with what you have, & make something of it !!!! Stop being so QUICK to find someone NEW

+1

I totally agree, give these first year players a chance. Even with the big names, the Eagles' secondary did not light it up by any means year 1. So, some of our unheralded guys could surprise us, and odds are, a few of them will, IMO.

[#12]

And Grigson needs to Stop acting like he's gonna have a DREAM Team his 1st Year here.

That's good advice for the fans. Patience.

That said, Grigson, as GM, should never stop attempting to improve the team. The previous administration became lazy over time. Manning, his iron man streak, and the system allowed them to become lazy.

[TKnight24]

That's good advice for the fans. Patience.

That said, Grigson, as GM, should never stop attempting to improve the team. The previous administration became lazy over time. Manning, his iron man streak, and the system allowed them to become lazy.

I'm not saying STOP Progress all together. But give people a Chance. A NEW System, Coaching Staff, Era, & Team (For the Most Part). See how things are 1st, then make Changes. Give these Young Players a Chance to live out their Dreams of playing & starting on Sundays

[TKnight24]

+1

I totally agree, give these first year players a chance. Even with the big names, the Eagles' secondary did not light it up by any means year 1. So, some of our unheralded guys could surprise us, and odds are, a few of them will, IMO.

I know MOST of our Guys will Surprise us. All this Young Talent on the Team, we're Feeding the Monster. But we're tryna do it too Fast. Feed something too Fast, & it'll get Sick & Throw Up right in your Face!

[fvantagio]

I'm not saying STOP Progress all together. But give people a Chance. A NEW System, Coaching Staff, Era, & Team (For the Most Part). See how things are 1st, then make Changes. Give these Young Players a Chance to live out their Dreams of playing & starting on Sundays

Competition makes everyone better. This is the NFL, if someone is better then your gone. The GM should always be bringing in new talent thats how teams improve. Its a business, everyone's replaceable and players know that.

[Gavin]

if a Corner doesn't have instincts and a nose for the ball then measurables mean nothing, we will hopefully see our guys have better instincts with jumping routes and such more this year but I wont be surprised at all if we dont

[coltnorth]

And Grigson needs to Stop acting like he's gonna have a DREAM Team his 1st Year here. If you work with Chism, Vaughn & Rucker..... they all could be Great CB's. This is why we won't get anywhere. They won't work with what they have. Our young players can't get any better if every 5 seconds, we're tryna bring someone NEW in. You cannot get better if people keep doubting you or you don't touch the field because someone NEW keeps coming in. Work with what you have, & make something of it !!!! Stop being so QUICK to find someone NEW

Really? You think you know how good the young cb's will be? Obviously the coaching staff and FO have evaluated our secondary and feel it needs help. People are big on Rucker and Thomas on this forum but find me a quote from a real analyst that indicates these guys have shown potential. They all say the same thing. Other than Powers, we have nothing proven. The colts staff can't just see how the season goes with theses guys. Their jobs are on the line. Our young guys will make the field if they can out play others in camp. To say that they wont get better if we bring somebody else in due to confidence is a joke. They are professionals, not babies. Let the FO and coaches field the best team they can. Our corners sucked last year. Really. The improvements so far have been a couple of journeymen and undrafted free agents. We need all the help we can get at CB

[chad72]

Really? You think you know how good the young cb's will be? Obviously the coaching staff and FO have evaluated our secondary and feel it needs help. People are big on Rucker and Thomas on this forum but find me a quote from a real analyst that indicates these guys have shown potential. They all say the same thing. Other than Powers, we have nothing proven. The colts staff can't just see how the season goes with theses guys. Their jobs are on the line. Our young guys will make the field if they can out play others in camp. To say that they wont get better if we bring somebody else in due to confidence is a joke. They are professionals, not babies. Let the FO and coaches field the best team they can. Our corners sucked last year. Really. The improvements so far have been a couple of journeymen and undrafted free agents. We need all the help we can get at CB

However, I do think that there will be post-TC cuts and post-preseason cuts that we can be scouring patiently for. All of the additions do not need to happen before TC, IMO.

[TKnight24]

Really? You think you know how good the young cb's will be? Obviously the coaching staff and FO have evaluated our secondary and feel it needs help. People are big on Rucker and Thomas on this forum but find me a quote from a real analyst that indicates these guys have shown potential. They all say the same thing. Other than Powers, we have nothing proven. The colts staff can't just see how the season goes with theses guys. Their jobs are on the line. Our young guys will make the field if they can out play others in camp. To say that they wont get better if we bring somebody else in due to confidence is a joke. They are professionals, not babies. Let the FO and coaches field the best team they can. Our corners sucked last year. Really. The improvements so far have been a couple of journeymen and undrafted free agents. We need all the help we can get at CB

There are NO Good CB's available besides Chris Johnson. We can't afford to keep Trading cause eventually, someone's gonna want a Draft Pick. We're Rebuilding, Picks are needed. We're gonna go through this Season with what we have right now whether people like it or not. I don't see the Cowboys giving us Jenkins & I don't see any other good CB's out there right now who we could bring in without giving something up

[TKnight24]

Competition makes everyone better. This is the NFL, if someone is better then your gone. The GM should always be bringing in new talent thats how teams improve. Its a business, everyone's replaceable and players know that.

Most of our CB's are Rookie's. They have to have time to come in & Perform. It's June. If they dont perform by Late July, then you Cut them. But at least give them a shot now

[weslo1812]

Really? You think you know how good the young cb's will be? Obviously the coaching staff and FO have evaluated our secondary and feel it needs help. People are big on Rucker and Thomas on this forum but find me a quote from a real analyst that indicates these guys have shown potential. They all say the same thing. Other than Powers, we have nothing proven. The colts staff can't just see how the season goes with theses guys. Their jobs are on the line. Our young guys will make the field if they can out play others in camp. To say that they wont get better if we bring somebody else in due to confidence is a joke. They are professionals, not babies. Let the FO and coaches field the best team they can. Our corners sucked last year. Really. The improvements so far have been a couple of journeymen and undrafted free agents. We need all the help we can get at CB

First thing I would say is we need to give Rucker and Thomas an actual chance and give them a full season of playing time before we make any real judgment on them. Yes they have played some already but its been on a very inconsistant basis. We need to see how they will do with consistant playing time and a new sheme with a coach that knows how to coach up a secondary. Not saying they are gonna be good or even great but right now is a little to early to be judging them. And I woudnt rely on everything these analyst say about these guys either bucause half the time they are wrong. Yes they are analyst but just because they give a bad report on a player doesnt mean that player ends up being bad. Like I said these guys may just need time and some actual good defensive coaching to prove themselves. I really dont think that last year our quality of Defenive back coaching and Defensive coaching overall was at all near wha it is now. We have coaches now that teach and re enforce the fundamentals at thier positions and help players establish a solid foundation. Then once they see a solid foundation they start coaching a teaching them the rest of their postion and the more advanced things to help mold that player. And then as Grigson has said about these coaches after they do that they see it come to fruition on the feild. So Lets give these players a chance with new coaches and a new scheme, its a fresh start.

[Gavin]

First thing I would say is we need to give Rucker and Thomas an actual chance and give them a full season of playing time before we make any real judgment on them. Yes they have played some already but its been on a very inconsistant basis. We need to see how they will do with consistant playing time and a new sheme with a coach that knows how to coach up a secondary. Not saying they are gonna be good or even great but right now is a little to early to be judging them. And I woudnt rely on everything these analyst say about these guys either bucause half the time they are wrong. Yes they are analyst but just because they give a bad report on a player doesnt mean that player ends up being bad. Like I said these guys may just need time and some actual good defensive coaching to prove themselves. I really dont think that last year our quality of Defenive back coaching and Defensive coaching overall was at all near wha it is now. We have coaches now that teach and re enforce the fundamentals at thier positions and help players establish a solid foundation. Then once they see a solid foundation they start coaching a teaching them the rest of their postion and the more advanced things to help mold that player. And then as Grigson has said about these coaches after they do that they see it come to fruition on the feild. So Lets give these players a chance with new coaches and a new scheme, its a fresh start.

All very good points well said, with that said, I think if Grigson and Pagano thought we had solid Corners for the future then he wouldn't have recently signed one and brought so many in during the offseason, now obviously we have seen enough of Thomas or Rucker to truely judge but part of that is do to Thomas not being able to stay healthy, the new scheme and such may help them (Powers, Thomas and Rucker) but none of these guys have ever been guys with decent interception numbers in other schemes, seems telling to me that they just dont have the instincts and the read and react skills but we shall see

[TKnight24]

First thing I would say is we need to give Rucker and Thomas an actual chance and give them a full season of playing time before we make any real judgment on them. Yes they have played some already but its been on a very inconsistant basis. We need to see how they will do with consistant playing time and a new sheme with a coach that knows how to coach up a secondary. Not saying they are gonna be good or even great but right now is a little to early to be judging them. And I woudnt rely on everything these analyst say about these guys either bucause half the time they are wrong. Yes they are analyst but just because they give a bad report on a player doesnt mean that player ends up being bad. Like I said these guys may just need time and some actual good defensive coaching to prove themselves. I really dont think that last year our quality of Defenive back coaching and Defensive coaching overall was at all near wha it is now. We have coaches now that teach and re enforce the fundamentals at thier positions and help players establish a solid foundation. Then once they see a solid foundation they start coaching a teaching them the rest of their postion and the more advanced things to help mold that player. And then as Grigson has said about these coaches after they do that they see it come to fruition on the feild. So Lets give these players a chance with new coaches and a new scheme, its a fresh start.

Thank You!! I've been saying that this whole time! And our DB's must not have been that Bad, cause we're Ranked 15th in the NFL against the Pass. So, with the Young Talent, & NEW System.... We can maybe move up to the Top 10 (Maybe a Strecth, but just throwing it out there)

[weslo1812]

Thank You!! I've been saying that this whole time! And our DB's must not have been that Bad, cause we're Ranked 15th in the NFL against the Pass. So, with the Young Talent, & NEW System.... We can maybe move up to the Top 10 (Maybe a Strecth, but just throwing it out there)

Yep exactly like we were saying. We were 15th in the leauge and the big problem we had was the intermediate throws over the middle. I had a post on that showing those numbers. If we can cut those numbers in half or close to it then I could see us craking top ten. Bold jusgment but its possible.Plus I see this new scheme being able to help that out as well. We do have to see how our LB adjust to pass coverage though because they will be a part in that as well. And agin remeber the Pats and Packers were last and second to last in pass defense and they had success. So Its not like this Detrmines whether we can win but we do ned to improve not only just win but win championships.

[TKnight24]

Yep exactly like we were saying. We were 15th in the leauge and the big problem we had was the intermediate throws over the middle. I had a post on that showing those numbers. If we can cut those numbers in half or close to it then I could see us craking top ten. Bold jusgment but its possible.Plus I see this new scheme being able to help that out as well. We do have to see how our LB adjust to pass coverage though because they will be a part in that as well. And agin remeber the Pats and Packers were last and second to last in pass defense and they had success. So Its not like this Detrmines whether we can win but we do ned to improve not only just win but win championships.

Exactly. Our only problem was Rush Defense & Total Defense (Most of the Total yards came from Rushing Yards). We got Bigger, so we should at least crack Top 20 Run Defenses. Top 10 Pass D & Top 20 Run D

[weslo1812]

All very good points well said, with that said, I think if Grigson and Pagano thought we had solid Corners for the future then he wouldn't have recently signed one and brought so many in during the offseason, now obviously we have seen enough of Thomas or Rucker to truely judge but part of that is do to Thomas not being able to stay healthy, the new scheme and such may help them (Powers, Thomas and Rucker) but none of these guys have ever been guys with decent interception numbers in other schemes, seems telling to me that they just dont have the instincts and the read and react skills but we shall see

Part of that can be true but also it could be to create better competition, now thats not saying they dont have a little doubt in thier head about how these guys may turn out and they brought some guys in to be prepared. We dont know yet. Also I understand the Interception numbers on either are not great but I have watched a little of Thomas and he seemed to deflect alot of passes and be right there with his man. If we could turn some of those into interceptions that would be great. Im just anxious to see what this new defensive coaching staff can do with these guys before we make a true judgment on them.

[Andy]

Talent wise, not so well, but they got Pagano, a secondary genius, so let's see if he makes them better.

[Gavin]

Part of that can be true but also it could be to create better competition, now thats not saying they dont have a little doubt in thier head about how these guys may turn out and they brought some guys in to be prepared. We dont know yet. Also I understand the Interception numbers on either are not great but I have watched a little of Thomas and he seemed to deflect alot of passes and be right there with his man. If we could turn some of those into interceptions that would be great. Im just anxious to see what this new defensive coaching staff can do with these guys before we make a true judgment on them.

Agreed

[weslo1812]

Exactly. Our only problem was Rush Defense & Total Defense (Most of the Total yards came from Rushing Yards). We got Bigger, so we should at least crack Top 20 Run Defenses. Top 10 Pass D & Top 20 Run D

Oh Yeah!!! If chapman and Big Mack are healthy I could see moving up possibly even to top 15, I wont go any higher than that that because thats pretty bold but With these big guys we have now and then seeing the numbers on how Anger and Conner fair against the run I like how it looks. Plus Redding and Nevis on the edges whiches looks very intruguing to me. I am encouraged.

[TKnight24]

Oh Yeah!!! If chapman and Big Mack are healthy I could see moving up possibly even to top 15, I wont go any higher than that that because thats pretty bold but With these big guys we have now and then seeing the numbers on how Anger and Conner fair against the run I like how it looks. Plus Redding and Nevis on the edges whiches looks very intruguing to me. I am encouraged.

Exactly. Nevis' Rookie season got cut short due to Injury. But I look for him to Bounce Back & Be as Disruptive as he was at LSU. We have the Potential to be a Good Team. But since we're soo Young, no one wants to wait or give our guys a chance. We don't need to keep bringing people in. That just makes it worse cause it Increases the # of People we have to Cut in the End smh

[bahhummbug]

And Grigson needs to Stop acting like he's gonna have a DREAM Team his 1st Year here. If you work with Chism, Vaughn & Rucker..... they all could be Great CB's. This is why we won't get anywhere. They won't work with what they have. Our young players can't get any better if every 5 seconds, we're tryna bring someone NEW in. You cannot get better if people keep doubting you or you don't touch the field because someone NEW keeps coming in. Work with what you have, & make something of it !!!! Stop being so QUICK to find someone NEW

If bringing in better talent than what you have is a bad thing,then we should of stayed with Dan-O or Painter and let them learn?I love what Grigs is doing hes putting the best talent he can get under Cap this year to be competitive.If we can draft a shutdown corner next year should we pass and keep Rucker to coach up?Put the best talent you can on the field and hope the others learn all they can .

[coltnorth]

Our pass defense was ranked 15th because teams didn't need to throw after they built a lead. They would just get ahead and run the ball to control the clock. If we were better on the O side of things, team would have just passed more to keep the lead. The thing was our secondary offered little resistance. Lets not think that our secondary was actually the 15th best.

[mark5362]

You can't teach vision.

[Narcosys]

I dont know if this has been reported yet, but it looks like were trying to get Mike jenkins

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/7972613/indianapolis-colts-making-bid-dalllas-cowboys-mike-jenkins-source-says

[Gavin]

I dont know if this has been reported yet, but it looks like were trying to get Mike jenkins

http://espn.go.com/d...ins-source-says

yep been reported, I dont want him, asking price is to high

[Superman]

Really? You think you know how good the young cb's will be? Obviously the coaching staff and FO have evaluated our secondary and feel it needs help. People are big on Rucker and Thomas on this forum but find me a quote from a real analyst that indicates these guys have shown potential. They all say the same thing. Other than Powers, we have nothing proven. The colts staff can't just see how the season goes with theses guys. Their jobs are on the line. Our young guys will make the field if they can out play others in camp. To say that they wont get better if we bring somebody else in due to confidence is a joke. They are professionals, not babies. Let the FO and coaches field the best team they can. Our corners sucked last year. Really. The improvements so far have been a couple of journeymen and undrafted free agents. We need all the help we can get at CB

You're right that our corners are unproven, outside of Powers, and even he has had health issues. Cornerback is easily the most problematic position for our team right now, and I definitely understand why people are so vexed about it.

But -- Broken Record Disclosure™ -- our corners did not suck last year. Our scheme sucked. That's not to say that we have great corners; there's no evidence that we do. But two things I noticed: a) our corners played better when they were allowed to engage receivers, either by starting closer to the line of scrimmage or in the rare man coverage; and b) Thomas and Rucker got better as the season went on.

It is logical to expect our corners to play better next season, not just because they have another year under their belts (Thomas and Rucker were rookies last year, as was Johnson), but because we'll be using a scheme that won't have them playing deep shell coverage 85% of the time. We should also have an improved pass rush and run defense, which will give our corners a break in the run game and a few more opportunities to make plays.

If we had a clear-cut solution to improve our cornerback position, I'd be all for it, provided the cost wasn't too high (and I definitely think the cost for a proven veteran is too high at this point, specifically for Mike Jenkins; there may be a veteran floating around that can be had on a low level contract, but that says something about his ability on the field). I was slightly dismayed that we didn't draft a corner, though I appreciate Grigson staying true to his board and avoiding questionable picks like Janoris Jenkins. At this point, though, I understand sticking with what we have and seeing how they respond to the scheme changes, because after watching the games again, it's clear that our corners aren't as bad as they looked last year.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Measurables are nice, but you also need to be able to produce on the field!! Our CB situation is intusting for sure, and quite frankly a HUGE concern. Outside of Powers who if he could stay healthey could become an ALL Pro the rest are ALL MAYBES & Queestion marks!! I kind of like the liitle bit I saw of Rucker last year, I would like to see him come on ! Again more fun & a postion to watch closly in the per season games. My Take right now, it may be one of our WEEKEST POSTIONS on the team!