Leonard seems displeased with his role

[Solid84]

14 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Do we think Bradley is just having a hard time figuring out how Shaq fits in this defense? 

Leonard played Will in Flus' scheme. He had freedom to make plays without being the target of blockers all the time. In Bradley's scheme that's the Mike if I understand it correctly. So, you put him at Mike? You put your playmakers into the best possible position to make plays. I don't care if Franklin makes a lot of tackles, so did Leonard when he had the freedom to do so and Leonard made turnovers on top of that. ASSUMING Leonard is still capable of (or will be again) making those plays it seems like a no-brainer to me. But, just cutting your $20m LB out of plays and not giving him the chance to even prove if he can be that guy again is horse poop in my opinion.

[Solid84]

1 minute ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Also the guy that replaced Franklin last week played 100% of snaps and got a int. Can’t argue with that result.

On 39 snaps Leonard had 10 tackles (8/2) and 1 missed tackle.

 

On 71 snaps Olubi had 4 tackles (4/0) and 5(!!) missed tackles. Sure he had the game ending INT, but there's a reason he graded out in the 40s by PFF.

[Solid84]

6 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Are fans going to feel the same if he is out there and blows the game? 

At least he'd get the chance to prove he can or can't. Just benching your $20m LB nearly half the defensive snaps without giving him the chance at his best position is terribad coaching.

[RollerColt]

Just now, Solid84 said:

On 39 snaps Leonard had 10 tackles (8/2) and 1 missed tackle.

 

On 71 snaps Olubi had 4 tackles (4/0) and 5(!!) missed tackles. Sure he had the game ending INT, but there's a reason he graded out in the 40s by PFF.

And to be fair, that was a really bad decision throw by Young at the end when that interception happened. Most NFL players would intercept that... 

[Superman]

26 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

I never said that is what Bradley said. I said behind the scenes they clearly don’t trust him. Their actions are louder then words.

 

If their words and their actions aren't lined up, then it's not hard to understand Leonard's frustration. If they told him 'wait until November, we'll get you more reps,' and then didn't do that, and didn't explain why, that's on them, not him.

 

It's also interesting how convinced you are that they don't trust him, considering they've never said that. And it's not like he's been out on the field making mistakes. Also, they play guys like Darrell Baker and Tony Brown at corner, but they don't trust Shaq Leonard? That doesn't track...

Edited November 9, 2023 by Superman

[Thunderbolt]

It's the nature of the business, you put your best product out there on the field, and if he's not making that splash as he has stated, then time to move on.  It's human nature also to feel the way he does b/c he's a competitor and i grant him that credit for feeling that way, again as fans we want winners that can contribute to the team, and he's not doing it right now....unfortunately.

[Superman]

24 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Do we think Bradley is just having a hard time figuring out how Shaq fits in this defense? 

 

The truth is probably that Shaq isn't a great fit for this defense. He's not great taking on blockers, he's not a physically imposing tackler, and he's not an eraser in coverage. His best trait is his ability to get around the ball, generate big plays, and create turnovers. That's a trait that none of our other LBs have displayed with any kind of consistency, and we don't know whether Shaq still has it because he doesn't get consistent playing time, and hardly ever plays on third down.

 

But it's not like he's just stuck on the bench. They're making a conscious decision to take him out, especially on third down, when you're mostly playing nickel and there's a ready-made role for a player like Shaq. But they give that role to other players, and apparently haven't told him why.

[1959Colts]

 

[richard pallo]

Gus didn’t sugarcoat anything.  I thought he gave honest answers to the questions asked.  Shaq appears to be getting better each week.  He could wind up playing more before the end of the year.  At the very end of his conference he stated something to the fact that if players keep showing out in practice they will give them the opportunity in a game and he mentioned a few names.  For me that’s why I don’t think we’re seeing Cross playing.  They don’t feel he’s come on enough to trust him in a game situation.  You clearly have to show you’ve got it together in practice before you are going to see the field.

[husker61]

If he didn’t have that huge contract, I don’t think we would be having this conversation. I think the colts over payed again and I feel that’s on the owner that’s more of a fan than a football mindset. He likes to keep colts players even if it may not be the best long term for the team. 

[stitches]

I think Shaq gets released at the end of the season. That would be a sad ending to what could have been a legendary Colts career. Unfortunately the injuries have robbed him off a lot of what made him special.  

[richard pallo]

13 minutes ago, husker61 said:

If he didn’t have that huge contract, I don’t think we would be having this conversation. I think the colts over payed again and I feel that’s on the owner that’s more of a fan than a football mindset. He likes to keep colts players even if it may not be the best long term for the team. 

For me I don’t worry one iota about what a team plays a player.  Every players contract is negotiated and agreed to and both sides are happy.  Contracts normally cover multiple years for most players.  Things can change over time.  For better or worse.  So getting all worked up because fans don’t think he’s earning his money is fruitless.  If the team comes to the same conclusion they will do something.  If not so be it.  If they are happy that’s all that matters.  I think they do an excellent job managing the cap and the roster.  All I care about is their ability to continue to improve the roster.  So far they are pretty good at it.  Seems like some fans all they want to do is * about something or some player.  Like our opinions matter.  They don’t.  I just want to watch and win.  I’ll let the front office and coaches do their job and hope they make the right decisions.  That’s all any fan can do.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

27 minutes ago, stitches said:

I think Shaq gets released at the end of the season. That would be a sad ending to what could have been a legendary Colts career. Unfortunately the injuries have robbed him off a lot of what made him special.  

I think a lot will depend on what happens with Bradley

51 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Gus didn’t sugarcoat anything.  I thought he gave honest answers to the questions asked.  Shaq appears to be getting better each week.  He could wind up playing more before the end of the year.  At the very end of his conference he stated something to the fact that if players keep showing out in practice they will give them the opportunity in a game and he mentioned a few names.  For me that’s why I don’t think we’re seeing Cross playing.  They don’t feel he’s come on enough to trust him in a game situation.  You clearly have to show you’ve got it together in practice before you are going to see the field.

I was kind of surprised how honest he was. Kind of nice to see that honesty.

[husker61]

7 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Seems like some fans all they want to do is * about something or some player.  Like our opinions matter.  They don’t.  I just want to watch and win.  I’ll let the front office and coaches do their job and hope they make the right decisions.  That’s all any fan can do.

but you are here on a forum doing just that, complementing or criticizing what the team is doing. There’s nothing wrong with that. But why say you”just want to watch and win”?

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Bradley actually changed some things and listened to Kenny Moore to get him in a better position to make plays. It says a lot they haven’t done the same for Shaq. Bradley is a real players coach. That’s why I lean this is probably  more  on Leonard just not being the same.  He also missed most of last season so Bradley never got to see the real Shaq either. 

[Solid84]

33 minutes ago, stitches said:

I think Shaq gets released at the end of the season. That would be a sad ending to what could have been a legendary Colts career. Unfortunately the injuries have robbed him off a lot of what made him special.  

I think it's too early to tell. I don't think Leonard has been given the chance to prove if he is what he once was. But, it's not unreasonable to think the injuries has taken the top off of his ability.

 

I'd just like to see him be given the chance. Leonard has never been good at shedding blockers. Franklin is better in that regard. Leonard can match or exceed Franklin as a tackler and is better at creating turnovers. If he can still play up to that level I just don't see how it's not a win for the Colts if those two players switched positions. Franklin may not like it though.

[Solid84]

2 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Bradley actually changed some things and listened to Kenny Moore to get him in a better position to make plays. It says a lot they haven’t done the same for Shaq. Bradley is a real players coach. That’s why I lean this is probably  more  on Leonard just not being the same.  He also missed most of last season so Bradley never got to see the real Shaq either. 

Bradley made those changes after Kenny's first season in the system. Leonard is playing his first season in the system....

[AKB]

29 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Bradley made those changes after Kenny's first season in the system. Leonard is playing his first season in the system....

I'd be fine moving on from shaq. 

 

LB is the RB of defense it seems

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

35 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Bradley made those changes after Kenny's first season in the system. Leonard is playing his first season in the system....

There is still tape out there Bradley can watch to see what Leonard was doing.

[richard pallo]

24 minutes ago, husker61 said:

but you are here on a forum doing just that, complementing or criticizing what the team is doing. There’s nothing wrong with that. But why say you”just want to watch and win”?

Complementing and criticizing happens all the time on a forum.  But going after a player for what he is being paid versus how well he is playing is fruitless for me.  It happens a lot.  Q is overpaid so is Kelly except now he is playing well.  The entire line is overpaid for that matter.  Of course Shaq is now too.  I don’t care what they are being paid.  Apparently the team has no problem with what they’re paying the players.  If they want to move on from a player they will.  I will say I’m glad they didn’t trade Kelly.  They could have had a cap savings but they kept him even after a down year.  So tying a player’s salary as a justification to move on from him doesn’t resonate with me.  There are more important factors that would come into play when deciding whether to move on or not.

[Superman]

35 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

I think it's too early to tell. I don't think Leonard has been given the chance to prove if he is what he once was. But, it's not unreasonable to think the injuries has taken the top off of his ability.

 

I'd just like to see him be given the chance. Leonard has never been good at shedding blockers. Franklin is better in that regard. Leonard can match or exceed Franklin as a tackler and is better at creating turnovers. If he can still play up to that level I just don't see how it's not a win for the Colts if those two players switched positions. Franklin may not like it though.

 

It would not be surprising if Leonard never gets back to his old self. The odds are heavily stacked against him, as a matter of fact. And I have understood being cautious with him all along, to make sure he can physically hold up without any major setbacks. Now we're halfway through the season, he's not on the practice injury report, he apparently isn't spending all week in the training room, and he's not coming out of games with pain or other physical issues. So why not take the gloves off and see what he can do?

 

What would really suck would be to keep him on a governor all season, and then cut him in March, and he goes off to another team and excels in a role that we wouldn't allow him to play. 

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Complementing and criticizing happens all the time on a forum.  But going after a player for what he is being paid versus how well he is playing is fruitless for me.  It happens a lot.  Q is overpaid so is Kelly except now he is playing well.  The entire line is overpaid for that matter.  Of course Shaq is now too.  I don’t care what they are being paid.  Apparently the team has no problem with what they’re paying the players.  If they want to move on from a player they will.  I will say I’m glad they didn’t trade Kelly.  They could have had a cap savings but they kept him even after a down year.  So tying a player’s salary as a justification to move on from him doesn’t resonate with me.  There are more important factors that would come into play when deciding whether to move on or not.

 

I'm a contract/cap management junkie, and I agree that people are overly concerned with contracts. Especially in the middle of the season, when there are no contract decisions to be made.

 

I thought Ryan Kelly should have been a cap casualty before the season, but I'm not going to spend all year complaining about his contract. And at this point, he's actually having a pretty good year, so it's a good thing we kept him.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

43 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

It would not be surprising if Leonard never gets back to his old self. The odds are heavily stacked against him, as a matter of fact. And I have understood being cautious with him all along, to make sure he can physically hold up without any major setbacks. Now we're halfway through the season, he's not on the practice injury report, he apparently isn't spending all week in the training room, and he's not coming out of games with pain or other physical issues. So why not take the gloves off and see what he can do?

 

What would really suck would be to keep him on a governor all season, and then cut him in March, and he goes off to another team and excels in a role that we wouldn't allow him to play. 

I do agree with the last part here. If they want to see if he is back he needs the chance. But I also think they see practice and their actions tells us they aren’t seeing what they need to see.

[ShuteAt168]

57 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Complementing and criticizing happens all the time on a forum.  But going after a player for what he is being paid versus how well he is playing is fruitless for me.  It happens a lot.  Q is overpaid so is Kelly except now he is playing well.  The entire line is overpaid for that matter.  Of course Shaq is now too.  I don’t care what they are being paid.  Apparently the team has no problem with what they’re paying the players.  If they want to move on from a player they will.  I will say I’m glad they didn’t trade Kelly.  They could have had a cap savings but they kept him even after a down year.  So tying a player’s salary as a justification to move on from him doesn’t resonate with me.  There are more important factors that would come into play when deciding whether to move on or not.

Players are cut all the time because their salary isn’t in line with what they are producing. Cost is a huge factor when teams are deciding a player’s future. 

[RollerColt]

58 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm a contract/cap management junkie, and I agree that people are overly concerned with contracts. Especially in the middle of the season, when there are no contract decisions to be made.

 

I thought Ryan Kelly should have been a cap casualty before the season, but I'm not going to spend all year complaining about his contract. And at this point, he's actually having a pretty good year, so it's a good thing we kept him.

A question: 

 

Is there anything in Shaq's contact about guarantees when injured? Could they be trying to lessen the chance of him getting hurt and owing him more money? 

 

It sounds far fetched for sure, but I don't know what his contract specifics are... 

[Solid84]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

It would not be surprising if Leonard never gets back to his old self. The odds are heavily stacked against him, as a matter of fact. And I have understood being cautious with him all along, to make sure he can physically hold up without any major setbacks. Now we're halfway through the season, he's not on the practice injury report, he apparently isn't spending all week in the training room, and he's not coming out of games with pain or other physical issues. So why not take the gloves off and see what he can do?

 

What would really suck would be to keep him on a governor all season, and then cut him in March, and he goes off to another team and excels in a role that we wouldn't allow him to play. 

Exactly this!

 

I would be so disappointed if he went to another team and balled out and we didn't even give him the chance. What's the harm? We're not winning anything this season anyway and since we're EVALUATING......

[Solid84]

1 hour ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

There is still tape out there Bradley can watch to see what Leonard was doing.

He played 74 snaps last season and could hardly run. I don't think it's fair to evaluate him on that.

[Superman]

13 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

A question: 

 

Is there anything in Shaq's contact about guarantees when injured? Could they be trying to lessen the chance of him getting hurt and owing him more money? 

 

It sounds far fetched for sure, but I don't know what his contract specifics are... 

 

Yes, $6.5m of his $13.6m salary in 2024 is guaranteed for injury. And IMO that's a terrible reason to limit his snaps.

 

I completely understand the team being cautious with him, but no one seems to be telling him 'we're trying to keep you healthy.' It doesn't seem like he's getting any real reason for why he's not playing more, and of course that would be frustrating.

[RollerColt]

Just now, Superman said:

 

Yes, $6.5m of his $13.6m salary in 2024 is guaranteed for injury. And IMO that's a terrible reason to limit his snaps.

 

I completely understand the team being cautious with him, but no one seems to be telling him 'we're trying to keep you healthy.' It doesn't seem like he's getting any real reason for why he's not playing more, and of course that would be frustrating.

Thanks! I agree that's a poor excuse. I was just curious. 

 

It's very frustrating. He's a grown man and a professional ball player. The staff needs to be straight up with him and not play games. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

13 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

He played 74 snaps last season and could hardly run. I don't think it's fair to evaluate him on that.

What about digging the tape out when eberflus was here?

[Superman]

31 minutes ago, ShuteAt168 said:

Players are cut all the time because their salary isn’t in line with what they are producing. Cost is a huge factor when teams are deciding a player’s future. 

 

This is obviously true, but that's a January to March discussion. Maybe you extend that conversation through the summer. It's not a November discussion.

 

Yet, any time a highly paid player is injured and can't play, or has a bad game, or even a bad play, there will be a 'why did we pay him?' reply. There will be a 'for X million dollars, he should be out there' post. And it's petty, IMO. 

 

It's especially petty in this case, when the accusation is that Leonard got paid and then decided to coast. In reality, the dude had a really difficult injury to recover from, and probably lost two years of his prime because of it. And that's no one's choice, it's just the circumstance.

[Solid84]

6 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

What about digging the tape out when eberflus was here?

Well, if they are digging the Eberflus tape out and seeing anything but Leonard > Franklin, then I think they are incompetent. But I doubt they are looking at tape from Eberflus' scheme.

[husker61]

8 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is obviously true, but that's a January to March discussion. Maybe you extend that conversation through the summer. It's not a November discussion.

 

Yet, any time a highly paid player is injured and can't play, or has a bad game, or even a bad play, there will be a 'why did we pay him?' reply. There will be a 'for X million dollars, he should be out there' post. And it's petty, IMO. 

 

It's especially petty in this case, when the accusation is that Leonard got paid and then decided to coast. In reality, the dude had a really difficult injury to recover from, and probably lost two years of his prime because of it. And that's no one's choice, it's just the circumstance.

i might remember one post about him coasting, all the others are just saying they don’t think he is worth the money he is getting. Completely different. 
 

I am sure every player is being evaluated all season and what they are payed, are they going to be a free agent, could they be replaced, etc. is a part of the process. The decision will be made after the season, but everything should be looked at by a good gm.

[Superman]

12 minutes ago, husker61 said:

i might remember one post about him coasting, all the others are just saying they don’t think he is worth the money he is getting. Completely different. 
 

I am sure every player is being evaluated all season and what they are payed, are they going to be a free agent, could they be replaced, etc. is a part of the process. The decision will be made after the season, but everything should be looked at by a good gm.

 

There's been a lot of posts suggesting he got paid and doesn't care anymore, not just one. 

 

Saying he's not worth the money he's getting is debatable, but it's irrelevant halfway through the season because the money is locked in. If he's still not looking worthy of his contract after the season, I'm right there with all of you. But it dominates the conversation even now.

[Superman]

On 11/2/2023 at 4:25 PM, Blueblood23 said:

He grabbed the guys foot. Really put the wood to him. Lol

 

So the narrative is that he doesn't make any impact plays, 'yeah he had 10 tackles but what good is that when they're 10 yards down the field?', and so on. Someone shows him beating a blocker, getting into the backfield, and making a solo tackle for a loss, and still he gets no credit? It wasn't a big enough hit or something?

 

The ideas have been that Leonard is slow, scared, doesn't care, can't handle the physicality, doesn't make splash plays, etc. Doesn't this play debunk all of that?

[Hoose]

14 minutes ago, husker61 said:

i might remember one post about him coasting, all the others are just saying they don’t think he is worth the money he is getting. Completely different. 
 

I am sure every player is being evaluated all season and what they are payed, are they going to be a free agent, could they be replaced, etc. is a part of the process. The decision will be made after the season, but everything should be looked at by a good gm.

What Leonard has gone through is very unfortunate. Until his back injury, he was a great player, IMO deserving of his high salary. He was the heart and soul of the D. 
But that guy doesn’t exist anymore. The Maniac has been robbed of his special athleticism. Which is why I expect the Colts to part ways with him and put that  chunk of money towards some new difference makers. 
It’s the harsh reality of this game. 

[ThorstenDenmark]

I hate we traded away Darius Leonard for Shaquille Leonard

 

Ever since things just haven't been the same

 

And yes, I know it's just a name change he made, but in a weird way it's just two completely different players.

 

Darius Leonard was a DOG and one of the best, IF not THE Best LB in the entire NFL.

 

Shaquille Leonard is a poor man's version of that dude and tbh... I won't mind we traded him for some draft picks or a another player of need like a young CB.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

34 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Well, if they are digging the Eberflus tape out and seeing anything but Leonard > Franklin, then I think they are incompetent. But I doubt they are looking at tape from Eberflus' scheme.

I was mainly talking about seeing how Leonard was used. Gives Bradley a idea of how to use him better. If that’s the real issue and not Shaq having it anymore.

[Zoltan]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I don't see that from him at all. At this point, I'm pleasantly surprised that he has not had a physical setback. If what he said is true and the coaches told him to wait until November, then I don't know if I've seen anything that makes me think he's not physically able to handle a full workload. And in a game where Franklin is out, giving the lion's share of snaps to a STer and CUTTING Leonard's workload is weird. I could understand if he looked slow and incapable during games. He's not the same guy he used to be, but he looks fine.

 

Also, his comments sound like they haven't given him an indication that they're seeing something they don't like. He sounds like he's in the dark as much as we are. We've only heard his side so far, so I'll wait to see if the coaches have something else to say. But if what he's saying is true, then I get his frustration.

 

Someone said that this reminds them of last year when Bradley kept playing Facyson even though Rodgers was outplaying him and clearly was the better player. I can't remember who referenced this earlier but I totally agreed with it. It seems Bradley picks favorites like Facyson and forces them into the lineup, and we are seeing something similar with Leonard. Where he doesn't like some aspect of Leonard's game, so he would rather play a worse player that follows his rules than play Leonard which like Moore is an instinct player. My one disclaimer though is that I'm over Bradley as a DC.

 

4 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Coaches are clearly seeing something and don’t trust him.

 

4 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Just looks like a guy who was once great and is having a hard time realizing he isn’t the same. If you guys want to see what Bradley said watch this. It’s from Tuesday. I was kind of shocked Bradley was this open.

 

 

 

Idk about that I bet it has more to do with scheme and how Bradley wants the position played, because Shaq is still outplaying the other LBs. Ironically Eberflus seemed to give his playmakers more freedom in his version of this defense, we saw Moore have a down year and have a lot of frustration last year with the system.

[compuls1v3]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

It would not be surprising if Leonard never gets back to his old self. The odds are heavily stacked against him, as a matter of fact. And I have understood being cautious with him all along, to make sure he can physically hold up without any major setbacks. Now we're halfway through the season, he's not on the practice injury report, he apparently isn't spending all week in the training room, and he's not coming out of games with pain or other physical issues. So why not take the gloves off and see what he can do?

 

What would really suck would be to keep him on a governor all season, and then cut him in March, and he goes off to another team and excels in a role that we wouldn't allow him to play. 

And the kicker...wait for it......

 

 

 

 

 

 

On his new team, he changed his name BACK to Darius Leonard..... .... j/k...