Jonathan Taylor comments on his contract/Request trade (Merge)

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

It should. With those two we should see a lot of wide open tight ends and WR.

I agree. It is just basic football 101 to understand that concept. Imagine if Lamar would have had a JT type in 2019 and 2020? Ravens may have won a SB in one of those 2 years. Andrews is always open for easy 10 yard gainers on the pass just because of Lamar alone. 

[Superman]

7 hours ago, AKB said:

I feel like running backs should be paid more, on shorter-term deals due to the wear and tear on most running backs. (Marlon Mack)

 

edit - also, even if we do overpay taylor a little, does it really matter? Our QB is on a rookie deal, and we have the 5th in cap space right now, and a roster that to me; looks like it is about to flip over. 

 

I think Leonard is done. My guess is he probably gets cut when its cap favorable. I saw a workout video of him today and he looks so slow. (could be that he was absolutely exhausted during the workout - who knows. but he looked very slow)

 

Clip Below

 

 

 

 

(relevant in terms of contract/cap and how it relates to signing/extending Taylor)

 

You think he looks slow in that video??

[Superman]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

With the drafting of Anthony Richardson, the Colts have backhandedly lowered JTs value to the team.  How many running plays can an NFL team call?

 

JT should play out the season and sign with JAX, where they have a QB that uses passing skills, which thereby requires another player to have the running skills.

 

This is meant to be tongue in cheek, right?

[Dingus McGirt]

How many young backs come out of college every year - fresh legs, rookie contracts and not beaten down by NFL defenses? No different than factory production workers who slow down with age. Fresh meat is always available for the grinder.

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

You think he looks slow in that video??

My 2 cents but I thought he looked ok, borderline good. Hard to tell from a short video though. 2 biggest questions through camp will be, who will be our starting QB to start the season, AR or Mustache? Will Leonard be ready for opening day?

[Nickster]

3 hours ago, DougDew said:

The NFL one day might think about the wisdom of concentrating 66% of the offensive skill into one athlete under C for the cheap superhero promotional value that some fans like, rather than the wisdom of diversifying risk by spreading different skills out amongst different players.

I think they are trying that.  I think there is some movement towards looking at these dual threat guys as more disposable than Brady, Manning types.  Ie.  Get a guy that can give you maybe 6 really good years with a lot of running then getting a new guy, rather than hoping for a dozen years from a guy.

 

 

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

My 2 cents but I thought he looked ok, borderline good. Hard to tell from a short video though. 2 biggest questions through camp will be, who will be our starting QB to start the season, AR or Mustache? Will Leonard be ready for opening day?

 

I thought his footspeed looked pretty good, his hips and balance looked good also. I don't know about burst, but it wasn't an explosive drill, it was an agility drill. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I thought his footspeed looked pretty good, his hips and balance looked good also. I don't know about burst, but it wasn't an explosive drill, it was an agility drill. 

He did look healthy with his movements. 

[Superman]

2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Hurts led the league in qb rushing attempts with 165.  Miles Sanders still had 259 attempts.   

 

Sanders had his best season by far. It probably doesn't make sense to expect 330 carries and 1,800 yards from JT, but I think being in Steichen's offense will be good for JT, and any other back.

[jvan1973]

29 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I think they are trying that.  I think there is some movement towards looking at these dual threat guys as more disposable than Brady, Manning types.  Ie.  Get a guy that can give you maybe 6 really good years with a lot of running then getting a new guy, rather than hoping for a dozen years from a guy.

 

 

There are more dual threat guys in the NFL because that is what the NCAA is sending.  There aren't many Manning and Luck type guys coming from college

[Nickster]

56 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

There are more dual threat guys in the NFL because that is what the NCAA is sending.  There aren't many Manning and Luck type guys coming from college

There never have been.  There have always been dual threat QBs in college.  It wasn’t even considered a choice before a few years ago int he NFL.  
 

I don’t think there are more dual threat guys now than before.  NFL rules changes and QB protection emphasis have made it feasible.  I think the experiment is following the rules changes rather than college talent.  

 

one might make an argument that RPO scheme made it feasible, but I think rules emphasis made RPO possible.  You could simply just high low the qb every time he faked in the past if they tried it and it wouldn’t last long.

 

 

 

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I thought his footspeed looked pretty good, his hips and balance looked good also. I don't know about burst, but it wasn't an explosive drill, it was an agility drill. 

I don’t think that drill shows anything other than the guy can chop his feet which is a lot better than not being able to.  The drill looked fine to me.

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I don’t think that drill shows anything other than the guy can chop his feet which is a lot better than not being able to.  The drill looked fine to me.

 

I wasn't blown away or anything, but I watched it a couple times and thought it looked good. He didn't look slow to me.

 

It does nothing to calm my concern about his ability to come back and play at a high level, though.

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Sanders had his best season by far. It probably doesn't make sense to expect 330 carries and 1,800 yards from JT, but I think being in Steichen's offense will be good for JT, and any other back.

Sanders had arguably by far his worst year except from a health/touches standpoint, which as everyone knows availability is the best ability.  So total yards he had more by only 20 yds over his rookie year on 50 less touches.  His yds per touch were way lower than his career average.  Sanders was always nicked after his rookie year till last year.  I know I drafted him in fantasy.  Dude was a stud but hurt always.

 

his yds/touch are as follows

2022  4.8

2021   5.6

2020  5.5

2019   5.8

 

 

if Steichen did something to keep him healthy which I doubt he helped him but other than that he was objectively less effective in the other years.

 

 

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Sanders had arguably by far his worst year except from a health/touches standpoint, which as everyone knows availability is the best ability.  So total yards he had more by only 20 yds over his rookie year on 50 less touches.  His yds per touch were way lower than his career average.  Sanders was always nicked after his rookie year till last year.  I know I drafted him in fantasy.  Dude was a stud but hurt always.

 

his yds/touch are as follows

2022  4.8

2021   5.6

2020  5.5

2019   5.8

 

 

if Steichen did something to keep him healthy which I doubt he helped him but other than that he was objectively less effective in the other years.

 

He had career highs in carries, carries/game, rushing yards, scrimmage yards, rushing TDs, total TDs... It was easily his most productive season. How you choose to define best and worst is a personal choice, I guess.

 

In context -- does playing with a dual threat QB make the RB obsolete? -- Miles Sanders usage and production in 2022 says no, it doesn't. 

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

He had career highs in carries, carries/game, rushing yards, scrimmage yards, rushing TDs, total TDs... It was easily his most productive season. How you choose to define best and worst is a personal choice, I guess.

 

In context -- does playing with a dual threat QB make the RB obsolete? -- Miles Sanders usage and production in 2022 says no, it doesn't. 

He was healthy but other than totals he was not as effective.

 

So Supe, you believe Steichen kept him healthy lol.

 

He had more TDs for sure, but Philly scored alot.

 

I suppose if you just consider health then yes his best season.

 

but he averaged less per touch than his rookie year by a full yard.

 

Simplistically yes he had his best year by 20 yards.  Digging deeper it was seemingly a fairly obvious function of playing and being available than some sort of scheme thing.

 

and I would argue strongly from a totals Standpoint he was better when he had the same 50 less touches his rookie season. And only 20 yards less.

[NewColtsFan]

11 hours ago, AKB said:

I feel like running backs should be paid more, on shorter-term deals due to the wear and tear on most running backs. (Marlon Mack)

 

edit - also, even if we do overpay taylor a little, does it really matter? Our QB is on a rookie deal, and we have the 5th in cap space right now, and a roster that to me; looks like it is about to flip over. 

 

I think Leonard is done. My guess is he probably gets cut when its cap favorable. I saw a workout video of him today and he looks so slow. (could be that he was absolutely exhausted during the workout - who knows. but he looked very slow)

 

Clip Below

 

 

 

 

(relevant in terms of contract/cap and how it relates to signing/extending Taylor)

Plenty of responses….  Most seem to be on the favorable side.   
 

I have a minority view.   I don’t think Shaq looked fluid or comfortable or fast or even quick.    That said, it looked to me like he was working out on what might’ve been a really crappy high school field, and that might’ve impacted his performance.   
 

Bottom line, nerve injuries are tricky and it’s hard to know how things will progress.    But I’m not optimistic he’ll be ready by the end of training camp.   I hope I’m wrong. 

[DougDew]

6 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Hurts led the league in qb rushing attempts with 165.  Miles Sanders still had 259 attempts.   

That's kind of an empty stat.  It depends on how many running plays an offense wants to run in relation to passing plays, and then what is the percentage contribution by the RB.  

 

If the RBs percentage of total running plays goes down, his contribution is less than it was, even if total handoffs increase (which could be related to the success of the entire offense).  We're talking contract and what his contribution is worth relative to another RB playing the same role.

[DougDew]

4 hours ago, Nickster said:

I think they are trying that.  I think there is some movement towards looking at these dual threat guys as more disposable than Brady, Manning types.  Ie.  Get a guy that can give you maybe 6 really good years with a lot of running then getting a new guy, rather than hoping for a dozen years from a guy.

 

 

Yeah I can see that.  With the running QB, make them more of a disposable player than before.  Keep getting the athletic rookie to run hard and lead a one-read offense, then discard and repeat.  Maybe the QB gets one new short contract but not two.

[DougDew]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

This is meant to be tongue in cheek, right?

Partially.  If our dual threat Qb doesn't show signs this year of actually being a passing threat that can unstack the box, I think JT would probably want to sign elsewhere.  

[Nickster]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yeah I can see that.  With the running QB, make them more of a disposable player than before.  Keep getting the athletic rookie to run hard and lead a one-read offense, then discard and repeat.  Maybe the QB gets one new short contract but not two.

Seems like there is a some movement towards that.

[jvan1973]

15 minutes ago, DougDew said:

That's kind of an empty stat.  It depends on how many running plays an offense wants to run in relation to passing plays, and then what is the percentage contribution by the RB.  

 

If the RBs percentage of total running plays goes down, his contribution is less than it was, even if total handoffs increase (which could be related to the success of the entire offense).  We're talking contract and what his contribution is worth relative to another RB playing the same role.

Well,  the Colts have the same play caller the eagles had last year.   I'm guessing a very similar offense will be used

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

Simplistically yes he had his best year by 20 yards.  Digging deeper it was seemingly a fairly obvious function of playing and being available than some sort of scheme thing.

 

I wasn't trying to discuss whether the scheme or coaching made Miles Sanders better. The question was whether a RB will get used and be productive as a runner in an offense with a developing dual threat QB. Given the connection, Sanders is a good test case, his usage and production -- alongside a QB who had 160+ rushing attempts -- gives a strong answer.

[throwing BBZ]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Plenty of responses….  Most seem to be on the favorable side.   
 

I have a minority view.   I don’t think Shaq looked fluid or comfortable or fast or even quick.    That said, it looked to me like he was working out on what might’ve been a really crappy high school field, and that might’ve impacted his performance.   
 

Bottom line, nerve injuries are tricky and it’s hard to know how things will progress.    But I’m not optimistic he’ll be ready by the end of training camp.   I hope I’m wrong. 

 

 I thought his drill footwork looked solid but when he turned and burst forward I thought oh oh! 

 Myles Jack situation?

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

Well,  the Colts have the same play caller the eagles had last year.   I'm guessing a very similar offense will be used

I'm not sure what the counter point is.  That a Qb who will run the ball himself by design has no detrimental impact on the RBs running touches, or a point that it even helps the RB?

 

Philly is one team with a running QB, BALT and BUF are two others.  Didn't Sanders just sign for $6.5M/year? 

[Nickster]

52 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I wasn't trying to discuss whether the scheme or coaching made Miles Sanders better. The question was whether a RB will get used and be productive as a runner in an offense with a developing dual threat QB. Given the connection, Sanders is a good test case, his usage and production -- alongside a QB who had 160+ rushing attempts -- gives a strong answer.

My bad then.  I thought when you said he had his best year by far you meant like the Steichen O brought the best out of him.

 

o I suspect we run a crap ton when AR becomes the starter.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I wasn't trying to discuss whether the scheme or coaching made Miles Sanders better. The question was whether a RB will get used and be productive as a runner in an offense with a developing dual threat QB. Given the connection, Sanders is a good test case, his usage and production -- alongside a QB who had 160+ rushing attempts -- gives a strong answer.

If you're referring to the Derick Henry comment about "why not just do away with the RB", I think he was talking about a potential macro-trend in the NFL where the RB is less valuable for a number of reasons, one being the emergence of the running QB.

 

The macro-trend of the NFL becoming a passing league hurt the value of the RB, now the QB will be taking some of the running play snaps.  I don't think that defines what an individual team or RB can do or not do, but it does place headwinds on the value of the RB.  

[BlackTiger]

6 hours ago, Nickster said:

 I think there is some movement towards looking at these dual threat guys as more disposable than Brady, Manning types.  Ie.  Get a guy that can give you maybe 6 really good years with a lot of running then getting a new guy, rather than hoping for a dozen years from a guy.

Some people seem to really dislike this model but I dont see a problem with it.  No they wont last 20 years in the league and teams know that going into it.  Get a rookie contract out of them and hopefully a few more years then move on

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

My bad then.  I thought when you said he had his best year by far you meant like the Steichen O brought the best out of him.

 

o I suspect we run a crap ton when AR becomes the starter.

 

No, was more countering the idea that being in Steichen's offense with a dual threat QB would necessarily crater RB production. It probably impacts RB production some, but if Miles Sanders is getting 260 carries next to Jalen Hurts, I think whoever plays RB next to Richardson will get plenty of usage.

 

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

If you're referring to the Derick Henry comment about "why not just do away with the RB", I think he was talking about a potential macro-trend in the NFL where the RB is less valuable for a number of reasons, one being the emergence of the running QB.

 

The macro-trend of the NFL becoming a passing league hurt the value of the RB, now the QB will be taking some of the running play snaps.  I don't think that defines what an individual team or RB can do or not do, but it does place headwinds on the value of the RB.  

 

There are a lot of things that are devaluing individual RBs, specifically as it relates to compensation. This has been trending for a long time. 

 

But I was talking about your idea that JT would rather play in a different offense where he'd have a better/different role. I don't think he'll be getting 330 carries like he did in 2021, but I don't really think he should have gotten that many carries to begin with; I don't think that's a recipe for a good offense in the modern NFL. What the Eagles did with Hurts was RB friendly, and I assume our offense with Richardson will be RB friendly as well. This approach puts a lot of pressure on defenses, and whoever the RB is should get a fair amount of usage.

 

Now if JT would rather play in a more traditional offense, where the RB runs and the QB throws, then yeah, playing with Richardson probably isn't what he wants to do. But that's not really about usage, because I think we have proof of concept that RBs get used plenty, even when the QB gets a lot of carries.

[Superman]

36 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

Some people seem to really dislike this model but I dont see a problem with it.  No they wont last 20 years in the league and teams know that going into it.  Get a rookie contract out of them and hopefully a few more years then move on

 

It's because we want a "face of the franchise" QB who can practically guarantee a trip to the playoffs every year. Especially Colts fans, because that was the reality for a long time, and has been held up as the ideal. It should still be the ideal, IMO. And everyone who is contending in the AFC has a guy like that.

 

But if you can't get that guy, I'm okay with churning through different kinds of QBs, retooling your offense accordingly, and building the rest of the roster. Meanwhile, I'd still be trying to land my franchise QB, and once I have him, I'd want to keep him for the next 12-15 years.

[NFLfan]

I completely agree with Derrick Henry and I commend him for supporting his fellow RBs who are not getting paid. I don't believe he was implying anything about dual threat QBs. He is right -- the RB position has been devalued. Younger offensive minds do not use RBs the way older coaches of the past did.

 

Having said that, I agree with AKB (Kaine). I think very good to great RBs should be paid. When QBs start missing a lot of time due to injury and overuse, the value of RBs will rise.Hopefully the Colts will pay JT. If not, I'd love to see JT play for my team.

 

Just my opinion.

[csmopar]

2 hours ago, NFLfan said:

I completely agree with Derrick Henry and I commend him for supporting his fellow RBs who are not getting paid. I don't believe he was implying anything about dual threat QBs. He is right -- the RB position has been devalued. Younger offensive minds do not use RBs the way older coaches of the past did.

 

Having said that, I agree with AKB (Kaine). I think very good to great RBs should be paid. When QBs start missing a lot of time due to injury and overuse, the value of RBs will rise.Hopefully the Colts will pay JT. If not, I'd love to see JT play for my team.

 

Just my opinion.

I just it kind of funny, millionaires complaining that making 10-13 million a year is some how undervalued… I mean heck, they’re getting paid to play a GAME. And paid well. 

[NFLfan]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

I just it kind of funny, millionaires complaining that making 10-13 million a year is some how undervalued… I mean heck, they’re getting paid to play a GAME. And paid well. 

 

Well, we live in a capitalist society. Billionaires want to make more and will do whatever is necessary to get more. What makes an athlete who makes his living playing a sport any different than any other person who wishes to earn more? 

 

I support them.

[stitches]

The very fact that Taylor seems to be negotiating through the media should tell us that the talks on the negotiating table with Ballard are probably not going the way he thought they would. I have very mixed feelings about this. I would love for a player who's been great when healthy and has worked hard to get there, to get paid, but at the same time the league is telling us what they think the value of the RB position is and it would probably be competitive disadvantage for the Colts to pay him record setting numbers or anywhere close to that... 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

The very fact that Taylor seems to be negotiating through the media should tell us that the talks on the negotiating table with Ballard are probably not going the way he thought they would. I have very mixed feelings about this. I would love for a player who's been great when healthy and has worked hard to get there, to get paid, but at the same time the league is telling us what they think the value of the RB position is and it would probably be competitive disadvantage for the Colts to pay him record setting numbers or anywhere close to that... 

 

Record setting numbers?   No one has floated those type of numbers as of yet.  
 

As for numbers close to that, the devil is in the details.   How much is guaranteed?   How many years?     
 

And Ballard has always stressed that players have different value to different teams.   And he’s ok losing players to others teams if those teams offer more.   So it’s also possible that some players may be worth more money to Ballard and the Colts than they are to other teams.   
 

All that said….  You’re right that it appears likely that talks with Taylor are not going the way JT had hoped.   He seems very unhappy.  

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, csmopar said:

I just it kind of funny, millionaires complaining that making 10-13 million a year is some how undervalued… I mean heck, they’re getting paid to play a GAME. And paid well. 

They’re paid well because the league is swimming in Billions of dollars.   And they play this game better than 99.99 percent of the people on this planet.   They are not easily replaceable.   
 

They have a very short career span and will likely have health issues for decades long after their careers are over.   In short,  I think they earn every penny they get.   

[DougDew]

12 hours ago, Superman said:

 

No, was more countering the idea that being in Steichen's offense with a dual threat QB would necessarily crater RB production. It probably impacts RB production some, but if Miles Sanders is getting 260 carries next to Jalen Hurts, I think whoever plays RB next to Richardson will get plenty of usage.

 

 

There are a lot of things that are devaluing individual RBs, specifically as it relates to compensation. This has been trending for a long time. 

 

But I was talking about your idea that JT would rather play in a different offense where he'd have a better/different role. I don't think he'll be getting 330 carries like he did in 2021, but I don't really think he should have gotten that many carries to begin with; I don't think that's a recipe for a good offense in the modern NFL. What the Eagles did with Hurts was RB friendly, and I assume our offense with Richardson will be RB friendly as well. This approach puts a lot of pressure on defenses, and whoever the RB is should get a fair amount of usage.

 

Now if JT would rather play in a more traditional offense, where the RB runs and the QB throws, then yeah, playing with Richardson probably isn't what he wants to do. But that's not really about usage, because I think we have proof of concept that RBs get used plenty, even when the QB gets a lot of carries.

I think JT would be wise to see how well he fits into the Colts offense, and Ballard probably wants to see it too.  I think JT is at his best as a straight-ish ahead runner where the box is backed off a bit because of the passing threat at QB.  I don't think JT is going to benefit from a running QB, especially this coming season, unless AR can really connect with our WRs down the field.

 

Now, JT will probably have a better year than last year.  But that improved performance alone won't answer those questions, about long term fit, IMO.

 

The dual threat QB has to actually be "dual", and has to have the passing part of it down pretty well, probably even needs to be a better passer than a runner.  Otherwise he's just another runner and I don't see that helping an Alpha RB as well as another team with a passing QB.

[csmopar]

8 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

Well, we live in a capitalist society. Billionaires want to make more and will do whatever is necessary to get more. What makes an athlete who makes his living playing a sport any different than any other person who wishes to earn more? 

 

I support them.

Oh I completely agree. And I support them as well. I just think it’s funny the way it’s being written. Some of these articles are making it sound like teams are making RBs PAY the team to play  I saw one comment from someone obviously uniformed that said “RBs in todays NFL can barely afford ends meet in the vastly devalued market”

let me go back and find that link, 

[csmopar]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

They’re paid well because the league is swimming in Billions of dollars.   And they play this game better than 99.99 percent of the people on this planet.   They are not easily replaceable.   
 

They have a very short career span and will likely have health issues for decades long after their careers are over.   In short,  I think they earn every penny they get.   

Oh I agree completely. I’m not faulting the players here. I’m just saying the way it’s being portrayed, someone with little to no knowledge of football or pro sports reading the articles about it could easily draw the conclusion that RBs are paid the equivalent of minimum wage compared to other positions.  
 

but the part I truly shake my head at is this notion of sitting out over a 1-3 million dollar difference in negotiations while giving up 10.5 million. From what I saw, Barkley was offered 13-14 million average per year, effective this year. He allegedly wants 15-17 million average and longer terms. So now, instead of playing in the tag at 10.5 million(which is still a raise) he’s thinking of sitting out, not making a penny, then trying to get a new team to offer him that kind of money in the spring.  Meanwhile, his age goes up and he’s a year out of football shape. And let’s say he does get that 15-17 million over 3-4 years after he sits out this year, it would be year 4 before he made up the loss 10.5 million from sitting out vs the offered contract, assuming hes not cut or retired by injury at that stage. 
 

just all seems “funny” 

[NFLfan]

While I support the players here, I think it is not in their best interests to sit out a season like Barkley is considering. Guys like JT and Barkley are too smart to miss time in a contract dispute. Youth is one of their assets and they are not getting younger. Missing time affects their career numbers and their benefits after retirement, in addition to losing money for not playing and losing support of the fans.

 

I recall when Leveon Bell was threatening to sit out. I thought it was not smart to do for so many levels. I'm sure he is regretting it now.