AR vs Young vs Stroud vs Levis

[Dingus McGirt]

5 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

I don’t understand why panthers thought it was a good idea to hire someone who just got fired.

 

On a side note Steichen mentioned he told panthers he didn’t want the job there. Told them he was taking colts job. Wonder if all this owner meddling turned him off.

Because Reich is a perceived “good man” and “players coach.”  

[Moosejawcolt]

23 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

Because Reich is a perceived “good man” and “players coach.”  

Its a long season and they are probably into Frank for 2 years. To fire him this year would be embarrassing and that they made a mistake. Do you want Young starting all over with a new coach next year? I think they will improve as the year goes on but who knows.

[Superman]

31 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

I don’t understand why panthers thought it was a good idea to hire someone who just got fired.

 

On a side note Steichen mentioned he told panthers he didn’t want the job there. Told them he was taking colts job. Wonder if all this owner meddling turned him off.

 

Fired coaches get hired all the time.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, Superman said:

 

Fired coaches get hired all the time.

That quick  though was kind of crazy.

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

That quick  though was kind of crazy.

 

The Cardinals hired Kliff Kingsbury right after he got fired by Texas Tech, so yeah. A lot of times they wind up taking a year off, like Doug Pederson. But not always.

 

By the time he got fired, I was out on Reich as a HC, but he's still well respected around the league, and has ties to Carolina. Some people even though he was undermined by Irsay and Ballard, especially with the Jeff Saturday stuff. I wasn't surprised to see him get hired, but I didn't expect him to suddenly be a great HC. Still, kind of surprised it's been this shaky so far.

[Moosejawcolt]

3 hours ago, chad72 said:

Josh Allen keeps showing us that the rocket arm means little without the accuracy and reduction of turnovers. Mahomes and Reid remind us why Brady won those SBs with timely offense and good defense with a lot of no name WRs, with an accurate QB.

Actually the Bengals are like the Peyton Manning Colts with top notch WRs, except Lou Anurumo’s D is so much better than what Dungy implemented here.

 

The way to win is still from spreading it around in the passing game with just timely running that will have the lanes necessary only if they respect your passing. I’m hoping that’s the approach they take with AR.

Rocket arms do one thing that a noodle arm cannot. They can make every throw and guys like Minshew are limited in what they can and cannot do in terms of making throws. It does affect the game a lot more than you would think

[chad72]

4 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Rocket arms do one thing that a noodle arm cannot. They can make every throw and guys like Minshew are limited in what they can and cannot do in terms of making throws. It does affect the game a lot more than you would think

 

Yes I know that. The goal is not comparing Josh Allen to Minshew. There is a reason we got AR, for the ceiling. The point is comparing newly drafted QBs and what attributes of a QB are important to succeed. Rocket arm is just ONE OF those attributes. There are a lot of equipment guys who could throw hard and far too. Without accuracy and reading coverages, it ends up like a Jeff George like situation. 

[Moosejawcolt]

4 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Yes I know that. The goal is not comparing Josh Allen to Minshew. There is a reason we got AR, for the ceiling. The point is comparing newly drafted QBs and what attributes of a QB are important to succeed. Rocket arm is just ONE OF those attributes. There are a lot of equipment guys who could throw hard and far too. Without accuracy and reading coverages, it ends up like a Jeff George like situation. 

agreed as there is a lot more that goes into making a great qb. However, guys with limited arm strength are somewhat easy to scheme against. The D will put on pressure as they like to throw short. The cbs will play tight waiting for the quick throws and prepare for the box to be loaded. 

[ADnum1]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Part of Young's struggles could very well being in that organization. 

I like Frank and I feel bad for him.

 

But he's in way over his head as a HC.

 

He needs to go back to being an OC or retire.

[chad72]

21 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

agreed as there is a lot more that goes into making a great qb. However, guys with limited arm strength are somewhat easy to scheme against. The D will put on pressure as they like to throw short. The cbs will play tight waiting for the quick throws and prepare for the box to be loaded. 

 

That is most likely what I anticipate happening against Minshew like the Ravens game. Pittman and/or Pierce will have to win a few 1-on-1s past 20 yards, IMO. Plus Minshew has to make sure the OL goes max. protect or something to pick up any blitzes, Cover 0 or not. Thankfully, early on, when the Jaguars don't blitz, we need to gain some valuable points. Jaguars typically rush 4 most of the time. Most likely, their goal would be to stop the run while rushing 4. It is time for OL redemption from game 1 for us.  

 

Steichen however has shown a good ability to adapt with chipping and "run away from the blitz" type of calls.

[Moosejawcolt]

7 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

agreed. I had made those points before the draft. I said back then that the only way  I would have considered taking  him at number one is if he ran a  4.3,  had a rocket arm and was able to jump tall buildings!!

I think I was right again lol

[NewColtsFan]

16 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I think I was right again lol

Moose?    You ALWAYS think you’re right. 
 

 

[Moosejawcolt]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Moose?    You ALWAYS think you’re right. 
 

 

 

[OLD FAN MAN]

imo stroud was the only one day one ready to start in the nfl. young was too small with the tall lines in the nfl. ar could develop into a good duel threat qb but it will take time, stroud is the best of the bunch and has the potential to be a top 10 qb of all time, I wish ballard would have found a way to move up and get him. the texans nailed the draft with a top qb and pass rusher

[Nickster]

17 hours ago, Superman said:

 

The Cardinals hired Kliff Kingsbury right after he got fired by Texas Tech, so yeah. A lot of times they wind up taking a year off, like Doug Pederson. But not always.

 

By the time he got fired, I was out on Reich as a HC, but he's still well respected around the league, and has ties to Carolina. Some people even though he was undermined by Irsay and Ballard, especially with the Jeff Saturday stuff. I wasn't surprised to see him get hired, but I didn't expect him to suddenly be a great HC. Still, kind of surprised it's been this shaky so far.

You watched any of them Supe?  What’s going on over there?

 

 I’m surprised at the record.  I didn’t like Young’s height and in the couple games I watched he just looked like a typical BAMA QB carving up inferior defenses, but his numbers so far are as bad as it gets really.

 

Evidence supports Frank being kind to QBs.  I wasn’t a huge supporter of FR overall, but his QBs outperformed themselves under FR.  He’s been using vets not rooks though.

Not surprised a rookie would come in looking bad but it looks pretty bad on paper.

 

 

[DougDew]

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Moose?    You ALWAYS think you’re right. 
 

 

Meh.  Context.   I think others' persistent and almost giddy usage of the word WRONG to immediately label his opinions over the years (when they merely disagree with the opinion) has earned him the capital to use the word RIGHT when its later shown he was. 

[Nickster]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Meh.  Context.   I think others' persistent and almost giddy usage of the word WRONG to immediately label his opinions over the years has earned him the capital to use the word RIGHT when its later shown he was. 

There is certainly been a liberal use of the word wrong on this site lol.

[DougDew]

7 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

 

Yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that Tepper was the force behind the Young pick and not Frank. 

 

IIRC, and its been a while, but CAR traded up to 1 long before they had to, and I thought that at the time of the trade the rumors that they were eyeing CJ Stroud with the pick.  But then that wave of media love with Young sort of consumed all of the air out of the discussion and it became a given that CAR was going to take Young.  Maybe Tepper was a source and  caused the media to swing to Young, or maybe Tepper bought into the love of Young as a cute and cuddly personality for the franchise the media was selling and caused CAR to move to him.  I don't recall the facts at the time though. 

 

I mean for never testing his physicality, Young sure didn't take much flak about it in terms of questioning his fitness to be number 1 over Stroud.  I guess Stroud had that processing test hanging over him too by then.

[NFLfan]

20 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I guess Stroud had that processing test hanging over him too by then.

 

If Stroud continues to play well, teams won't be using that test anymore.

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

If Stroud continues to play well, teams won't be using that test anymore.

Yeah, if a person is not used to taking one particular kind of test, it can be a one-off environmental surprise thing.  I think there is value to that kind of testing, but more things probably have to be understood about it.

[NFLfan]

32 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yeah, if a person is not used to taking one particular kind of test, it can be a one-off environmental surprise thing.  I think there is value to that kind of testing, but more things probably have to be understood about it.

 

I think it has value, but Stroud's success may show that this test does not accurately predict how a quarterback will play. The proponents of the S2 test noted that scoring well on the test was not necessarily a sign of future success but that failing the test is a sign that someone does not have the analytical skills to play the game. Stroud failed the test badly, but he is playing football well without a great OL and without great WRs.

[DougDew]

16 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

I think it has value, but Stroud's success may show that this test does not accurately predict how a quarterback will play. The proponents of the S2 test noted that scoring well on the test was not necessarily a sign of future success but that failing the test is a sign that someone does not have the analytical skills to play the game. Stroud failed the test badly, but he is playing football well without a great OL and without great WRs.

Its my understanding the test is about processing speed, not necessarily about analytical skills.  Its not even a written test.  A specific stimulus appears on the screen, and the student's reaction is timed and measured along with what decision was made.  IOW, if a pass rusher is bearing down, how quickly does he see that and make the right throw.  It was especially important for Stroud because there were questions about that with him coming out of OSU...he had such clean pockets and wide open receivers that he was rarely tested in game situations...outside of the UGA game.

 

Young apparently tested well, but processing speed seems to be a problem with his play thus far.

AR did very well in the test, and processing speed seems to be a strength of his game.

 

Ever watch Magnum Force, where Clint Eastwood and "Hutch" have a shooting competition on a range?  Make the right decisions quickly.  There is value to the testing, but the test needs to be quality.

[NFLfan]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Its my understanding the test is about processing speed, not necessarily about analytical skills. 

 

I may have added "analytical skills" by accident, but those who believed in the test thought it could help eliminate those who would not be successful in football.

 

If the test measures processing speed, then it was not accurate at predicting Stroud's speed when processing information on the football field. One has to process lots of information quickly to be successful at football. Stroud is clearly doing that.

 

Anyway, good discussion.

[DougDew]

40 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

I may have added "analytical skills" by accident, but those who believed in the test thought it could help eliminate those who would not be successful in football.

 

If the test measures processing speed, then it was not accurate at predicting Stroud's speed when processing information on the football field. One has to process lots of information quickly to be successful at football. Stroud is clearly doing that.

 

Anyway, good discussion.

I agree.  I was thinking you were saying that because Stroud's test didn't reflect his reality, that that kind of testing should not be part of the predraft process.  I'd say to make the test better, or couch the results better, because measuring processing speed when under stress is a valuable test.  

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

Yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that Tepper was the force behind the Young pick and not Frank. 

 

IIRC, and its been a while, but CAR traded up to 1 long before they had to, and I thought that at the time of the trade the rumors that they were eyeing CJ Stroud with the pick.  But then that wave of media love with Young sort of consumed all of the air out of the discussion and it became a given that CAR was going to take Young.  Maybe Tepper was a source and  caused the media to swing to Young, or maybe Tepper bought into the love of Young as a cute and cuddly personality for the franchise the media was selling and caused CAR to move to him.  I don't recall the facts at the time though. 

 

I mean for never testing his physicality, Young sure didn't take much flak about it in terms of questioning his fitness to be number 1 over Stroud.  I guess Stroud had that processing test hanging over him too by then.

I think Frank would have taken Stroud. IT fits what he likes to do

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

This goes back to Reich. Why would he put this much on a rookie QB.

 

 

[DougDew]

3 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

This goes back to Reich. Why would he put this much on a rookie QB.

 

 

"that Tepper stepped over the coaches to select Young".

 

@Moosejawcolt. There was more to it than just a feeling...looks like some actual tweets from sources (whoever they are).  I thought it was pretty common thinking right after the trade up that CAR wanted Stroud.....In the UGA game he showed elusiveness and out of structure play and his stock rose quite a bit.   

[stitches]

On 10/11/2023 at 7:30 AM, Moosejawcolt said:

 

I wouldn't trust Frank to pick my QB too... well... I wouldn't trust him to coach my team in the first place so... 

[stitches]

On 10/11/2023 at 3:43 PM, NFLfan said:

 

If Stroud continues to play well, teams won't be using that test anymore.

I disagree. The helpfulness of a test is not determined by the success of one player, be it in positive or negative direction. It will add another data point. One that they might have needed since they've been saying that so far no QB who scored low has succeeded. It might help them better contextualize what the test is saying about the prospects... or it might just be an outlier.

[stitches]

3 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

This goes back to Reich. Why would he put this much on a rookie QB.

 

 

I'm not sure how much this is true about Steichen and Richardson. From what I've heard Steichen's offense is pretty verbose too... and Richardson mastering it is just one aspect of how impressive he's been and why they gave him the starting spot.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, stitches said:

I'm not sure how much this is true about Steichen and Richardson. From what I've heard Steichen's offense is pretty verbose too... and Richardson mastering it is just one aspect of how impressive he's been and why they gave him the starting spot.  

I do think Steichen has been careful about keeping things simple. But yeah I don’t think it’s completely true. That said if young has too much on his plate might be a bad sign of him being able to handle it. But I bet Reich had given way to much to handle. I don’t know if Carolina has a vet center but I am sure Kelly has helped Richardson a ton not having to do to much protection wise.

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, stitches said:

I'm not sure how much this is true about Steichen and Richardson. From what I've heard Steichen's offense is pretty verbose too... and Richardson mastering it is just one aspect of how impressive he's been and why they gave him the starting spot.  

So it turns out, Young isn't grasping the offense that well (you can kind of see that by how he has been playing).  I get it, he's a rookie, and my standards aren't that high for a rook to grasp right away...so I wouldn't criticize that.  But...

 

If he's short, not particularly strong, not a rocket arm, not elite accuracy, not great speed, and takes a while to grasp the offense....what exactly were his qualifications to be rated the number 1 prospect?

 

Production?...there are lots of QBs that have great college production who's size and physical traits don't project well into the NFL.  Purdy, Minshew, Sam, Bennett, all come to mind, and I'm sure there are other QBs too that have gotten left behind.

 

I never understood the Young love back then, and it becomes even a greater mystery to me.

[stitches]

13 minutes ago, DougDew said:

So it turns out, Young isn't grasping the offense that well (you can kind of see that by how he has been playing).  I get it, he's a rookie, and my standards aren't that high for a rook to grasp right away...so I wouldn't criticize that.  But...

 

If he's short, not particularly strong, not a rocket arm, not elite accuracy, not great speed, and takes a while to grasp the offense....what exactly were his qualifications to be rated the number 1 prospect?

 

Production?...there are lots of QBs that have great college production who's size and physical traits don't project well into the NFL.  Purdy, Minshew, Sam, Bennett, all come to mind, and I'm sure there are other QBs too that have gotten left behind.

 

I never understood the Young love back then, and it becomes even a greater mystery to me.

It was mainly his feel for the game... anticipation, improviastional ability... accuracy was pretty good too... 

 

I ultimately didn't see how it will translate at the next level with him too. Just at that size you need some exceptional physical attribute to compensate for the size disparity. But he's neither fast enough, nor his armstrength is good enough to qualify IMO. 

 

We will see how he pans out ultimately. Lets not close the door for him just yet. For example, I had very similar feelings about Tua(though he was a bit bigger). and he's turned into a very efficient QB with the right coaching and supporting cast..

[GoColts8818]

On 10/10/2023 at 11:34 AM, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

I don’t understand why panthers thought it was a good idea to hire someone who just got fired.

Yeah I am sure glad the Colts have never done anything like that…

 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

I'm not sure how much this is true about Steichen and Richardson. From what I've heard Steichen's offense is pretty verbose too... and Richardson mastering it is just one aspect of how impressive he's been and why they gave him the starting spot.  

 

This report is about more than verbiage. Lots of offensive calls are verbose. But the Colts don't have Richardson calling protections and adjusting routes at the line. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This report is about more than verbiage. Lots of offensive calls are verbose. But the Colts don't have Richardson calling protections and adjusting routes at the line. 

My guess as of right now Kelly is doing a lot of that.

44 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Yeah I am sure glad the Colts have never done anything like that…

 

Dungy had a lot more success then Reich has had.

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

It was mainly his feel for the game... anticipation, improviastional ability... accuracy was pretty good too... 

 

I ultimately didn't see how it will translate at the next level with him too. Just at that size you need some exceptional physical attribute to compensate for the size disparity. But he's neither fast enough, nor his armstrength is good enough to qualify IMO. 

 

We will see how he pans out ultimately. Lets not close the door for him just yet. For example, I had very similar feelings about Tua(though he was a bit bigger). and he's turned into a very efficient QB with the right coaching and supporting cast..

Sure, its only 5 games, and he can be fine in the end. 

 

Including the tweet that talks about the O being too complicated relative to the Os other rookies are running now, his struggles are seen as being caused by something other than the possibility he never deserved to be the number 1 pick in the first place. 

[NFLfan]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

I disagree. The helpfulness of a test is not determined by the success of one player, be it in positive or negative direction. It will add another data point. One that they might have needed since they've been saying that so far no QB who scored low has succeeded. It might help them better contextualize what the test is saying about the prospects... or it might just be an outlier.

 

Okay. I hear you, but I don't think people will be so quick to dismiss someone who scores low on the test.

[GoColts8818]

2 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

My guess as of right now Kelly is doing a lot of that.

Dungy had a lot more success then Reich has had.

He was still a coach who had just gotten fired.

[Dingus McGirt]

3 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

My guess as of right now Kelly is doing a lot of that.

Dungy had a lot more success then Reich has had.

And…he had Peyton, Marvin, etc.