CJ Stroud, QB, Ohio State

[chad72]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

The system a QB is in is very important so great points. That is why QB's like Peyton and Tom could play in any system and win, they were the system.

 

You don't get such field general QBs easily. So, coaches being flexible till the QB can grow and get to that level is important. Otherwise you are constantly trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, chad72 said:

 

You don't get such field general QBs easily. So, coaches being flexible till the QB can grow and get to that level is important.

I also think Rivers was the system, he carried a lot of those Chargers teams, he had LT for a few years but his reading of defenses and changing plays ranks way up there. When he was here he was solid good.

[DougDew]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Russell Wilson is/was mobile, unlike Brees. Fran Tarkenton and Joe Montana were a lifetime ago. 

And even then the shorter QBs for their day like, Montana, Young, Theisman, Staubach...Harbaugh were scramblers.  Marino, Fouts, Unitas, Kelly were pocket passers and were taller. 

 

[Solid84]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

That was very surprising to me, but watching some clips he's shown off his arm during games. 

 

It's all the rest of the QB picture where DTR comes up short. 

It’s just surprising when we have a guy like Levis who has a hyped arm and he throws a good, but far from unique, 59 mph. Then a guy like DTR throws 62 which only Allen has done before.

[DougDew]

12 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Sam Darnold sucks, I sure never thought he would be good.

But good isn't what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about "not big".

[DougDew]

14 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

The issue is colleges aren't developing OL at the highest levels with more spread offenses. So, perfect protection for pocket passers isn't ideal or practical at the NFL level. Hence POCKET PASSING WITH A LITTLE MOBILITY while still passing first should be the new metric. Then, you evaluate the prospects.

Scrambling/mobile QBs is nothing new in the NFL.  The successful short QBs in the NFL over the past 40 years have tended to be scramblers and not pocket passers.  Brees is the exception.

 

The question for me is, is 6'3" becoming a short QB relative to the growth of NFL football players.  Probably not, but its not a big QB anymore, for a pocket passer.

[chad72]

7 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Scrambling/mobile QBs is nothing new in the NFL.  The successful short QBs in the NFL over the past 40 years have tended to be scramblers and not pocket passers.  Brees is the exception.

 

The question for me is, is 6'3" becoming a short QB relative to the growth of NFL football players.  Probably not, but its not a big QB either.

 

You can't pigeon hole QBs especially when QB play is an evolution. You want to put them into categories saying "they are either this or that" but I feel QBs evolve over their NFL tenure. The scrambling could become less and the pocket passing becomes more. Or the pocket passing could be augmented with timely scrambling by Burrow etc.

 

That happens, regardless of height. That is my point.

[Superman]

24 minutes ago, DougDew said:

6'3" 214 is exactly the same size as Sam Darnold.  Whenever I see Darnold on the field, he looks like a smallish QB.  JMO.

 

That's fine. I think 6'3" is sufficient, and not a concern for me. You said it's your minimum height, so I would think we can consider that box checked.

[Superman]

14 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

It’s just surprising when we have a guy like Levis who has a hyped arm and he throws a good, but far from unique, 59 mph. Then a guy like DTR throws 62 which only Allen has done before.

 

For sure, a definite shocker. But there's little difference between 59 and 62, especially on game day.

 

I don't think anyone is juicing the numbers, if that's what you were implying...

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, Superman said:

 

For sure, a definite shocker. But there's little difference between 59 and 62, especially on game day.

 

I don't think anyone is juicing the numbers, if that's what you were implying...

I honestly don't put much into arm strength. I could give you a trivia question and ask you, who holds the record for arm strength/velocity? You may know but it is Tim Tebow at 68 MPH. Tim was never a good QB in the NFL but his 2011 season was cool. He was clutch that season at times.

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

You can't pigeon hole QBs especially when QB play is an evolution. You want to put them into categories saying "they are predominantly this or that" but I feel QBs evolve over their NFL tenure. The scrambling could become less and the pocket passing becomes more. Or the pocket passing could be augmented with timely scrambling by Burrow etc.

 

That happens, regardless of height. That is my point.

Its a matter of determining what the ideal prototype traits are, then measuring how each QB deviates from the ideal traits.   And is there another trait that compensates.  Its been shown over the years that the successful smaller QBs have scrambling abilities as a prominent part of their game.   

 

The short statues tend to not have success.    

[chad72]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I honestly don't put much into arm strength. I could give you a trivia question and ask you, who holds the record for arm strength/velocity? You may know but it is Tim Tebow at 68 MPH. Tim was never a good QB in the NFL but his 2011 season was cool. He was clutch that season at times.

 

Yeah, it is all about playing to the strengths. Note that they didn't try to make Tebow a pocket passer there. They played good D, controlled clock with the running game and once they got into the red zone, Tebow with his running made some magic happen.

 

However, when they couldn't control the offensive output of the opponent with good D (twice vs Patriots in the regular season and playoffs), they were crushed, no Tebow magic could help them.

[Moosejawcolt]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Its a matter of determining what the ideal prototype traits are, then measuring how each QB deviates from the ideal traits.   And is there another trait that compensates.  Its been shown over the years that the successful smaller QBs have scrambling abilities as a prominent part of their game.   

 

The short statues tend to not have success.    

Like  Parcells  said.  In the top 15 u go with the prototypical stature for any  postion and after that u can then make an exception. I guess my question about Young is what single trait makes him exceptional? Just asking. 

[DaColts85]

5 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Like  Parcells  said.  In the top 15 u go with the prototypical stature for any  postion and after that u can then make an exception. I guess my question about Young is what single trait makes him exceptional? Just asking. 

I actually wonder the same thing. College vs pro is drastically different so movement in the pocket will be huge for him but the NFL speed is different. He just makes me nervous plus his arm is not impressive. 

[stitches]

Greg Cosell's scouting report on CJ Stroud:

https://www.the33rdteam.com/nfl-draft/2023/players/c-j-stroud-49609/scouting-reports/

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

On 3/6/2023 at 9:41 AM, Moosejawcolt said:

Like  Parcells  said.  In the top 15 u go with the prototypical stature for any  postion and after that u can then make an exception. I guess my question about Young is what single trait makes him exceptional? Just asking. 

OK….    Fair question.   
 

What makes Young exceptional are NOT the things you can see and/or measure…. Height, weight, arm strength which I would grade as above average to good.  
 

Instead, it’s all the things you can’t measure…

 

*** Leadership

*** Poise under pressure

*** Pocket presence and awareness

*** Reading defenses 

*** Pre-snap reading

*** Post-snap reading

*** Working with coaches on game plan

 

 

If you could out these intangibles inside Levis or Richardson, you’d have a Luck-level player. 
 

[Moosejawcolt]

14 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

OK….    Fair question.   
 

What makes Young exceptional are NOT the things you can see and/or measure…. Height, weight, arm strength which I would grade as above average to good.  
 

Instead, it’s all the things you can’t measure…

 

*** Leadership

*** Poise under pressure

*** Pocket presence and awareness

*** Reading defenses 

*** Pre-snap reading

*** Post-snap reading

*** Working with coaches on game plan

 

 

If you could out these intangibles inside Levis or Richardson, you’d have a Luck-level player. 
 

U may want to listen to GM Shuffle podcast with Mike Lombardi. U may or may not like Lombardi but he makes some good points against Stroud

 

[NewColtsFan]

5 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

U may want to listen to GM Shuffle podcast with Mike Lombardi. U may or may not like Lombardi but he makes some good points against Stroud

 

That’s fine.    I’m not totally invested with any of the five, though Stroud would be my preference.    I think there are pros and cons for each of the top 5 candidates.  
 

Like most here, I think Stroud and Young will be gone by the time the Colts pick.  Even if they move up to 3. 

[stitches]

Kurt Warner breaks down film of CJ Stroud(part 1 - the good):

 

 

[Moosejawcolt]

On 3/23/2023 at 3:39 PM, NewColtsFan said:

That’s fine.    I’m not totally invested with any of the five, though Stroud would be my preference.    I think there are pros and cons for each of the top 5 candidates.  
 

Like most here, I think Stroud and Young will be gone by the time the Colts pick.  Even if they move up to 3. 

what would we do if Young and Stroud were sitting there at 4??? lol

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

what would we do if Young and Stroud were sitting there at 4??? lol

 

Personally,   I’d take Stroud.   But I’ll trust whoever Steichen wants.    If he thinks he can succeed with Young, so be it.   I’d always worry about him.   I think Stroud is a somewhat safer pick because of his size.   
 

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Personally,   I’d take Stroud.   But I’ll trust whoever Steichen wants.    If he thinks he can succeed with Young, so be it.   I’d always worry about him.   I think Stroud is a somewhat safer pick because of his size.   
 

To me i would rather pick Young and he fails because of his size rather than pick Stroud because he does not operate an NFL offense and you maybe going crap the first time he plays a game or runs a practice and saying to yourself "did we ever get this wrong".

[stitches]

 

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

On 4/4/2023 at 12:47 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

To me i would rather pick Young and he fails because of his size rather than pick Stroud because he does not operate an NFL offense and you maybe going crap the first time he plays a game or runs a practice and saying to yourself "did we ever get this wrong".

Fans make determinations after a game or a practice.   
 

NFL types make evaluations after much longer time frames.   Like years, not days.