[Lombardi] Deon Cain's injury might be season-ending

[PrincetonTiger]

22 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

I think this speaks volumes if you were unaware of this.

 

Also, I’m a stats guy ok, I make numbers do all sorts of fun things in my day job so I’m well aware of their fallacy without context. A play by play break down gives you some context. To dismiss it as an inferior piece of intelligence is nonsensical. No one, no one I repeat, can pick up all the nuances of a play watching live. 

 

Again.. I suggest you chill out a bit, a don’t put forward an absolute position, especially when you’re not fully informed. You can say the same thing in many ways, but how you say it makes a big difference.

That is why  when I watch games I often focus on the interior OL the same way I did when I was coaching

[Stoney]

it looked to me like he was trying to do too much out there when he got the ball. a lot of times injuries are just a fluke thing that you cant control, but theres times where you can control it. the players that do go their whole career without a major injury doesn't happen by JUST luck. 

[crazycolt1]

20 hours ago, Stoney said:

it looked to me like he was trying to do too much out there when he got the ball. a lot of times injuries are just a fluke thing that you cant control, but theres times where you can control it. the players that do go their whole career without a major injury doesn't happen by JUST luck. 

Just how does a player do too much?  If it is noticed they are not trying or giving their best they are chastised. 

[BleedBlu8792]

On 8/14/2018 at 12:18 AM, Narcosys said:

Once you tear your acl, its a crap shoot as to whether you'll be able to play again or not. Sure he'll be 100%, but he is much more susceptible to re-injuring it. He won't be the same.

 

To put this as nicely as I can, but this couldn't be more false. It's been medically proven that reconstructive knee surgery after these injuries makes the knee stronger than it was before the injury. 10-15 years ago, sure, medical technology/surgery/rehab were nowhere near as advanced as now, so you could question the post-injury recovery, but now, the rate of failure after these surgeries has dropped significantly - guys are recovering successfully faster. Plus, being professional athletes, they're getting the best sports medicine has to offer, especially on the rehab side. 

 

Malik Hooker tore his MCL and ACL and is already in line to start week 1, less than a year than when his injury occurred. Cain will be fine and will more than likely be at full health/participation by training camp next year with a good chance it being before then.

[Narcosys]

17 hours ago, BleedBlu8792 said:

 

To put this as nicely as I can, but this couldn't be more false. It's been medically proven that reconstructive knee surgery after these injuries makes the knee stronger than it was before the injury. 10-15 years ago, sure, medical technology/surgery/rehab were nowhere near as advanced as now, so you could question the post-injury recovery, but now, the rate of failure after these surgeries has dropped significantly - guys are recovering successfully faster. Plus, being professional athletes, they're getting the best sports medicine has to offer, especially on the rehab side. 

 

Malik Hooker tore his MCL and ACL and is already in line to start week 1, less than a year than when his injury occurred. Cain will be fine and will more than likely be at full health/participation by training camp next year with a good chance it being before then.

We'll see how Hooker plays at game speed.

 

And you are more susceptible to ACL injuries after the first. 

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130711084135.htm

 

https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/04/how_to_rehab_a_torn_acl.html

 

So I'm sorry, but I couldn't be more right.

[ColtsBlueFL]

1 hour ago, Narcosys said:

We'll see how Hooker plays at game speed.

 

And you are more susceptible to ACL injuries after the first. 

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130711084135.htm

 

Remember SteelCityColt mentioning stats... and context?  I looked at this above and saw the subjects in the study. Did you know, there have been studies I've seen where female athletes suffered ACL injury 2 - 8 times higher than males?  Did you note the subjects of this study?

 

    "... 59 female, 19 male) between 10 and 25 years old"

 

and this - ""In our study, female athletes after ACLR demonstrated more than four times greater rate of injury within 24 months than their healthy counterparts.

 

https://www.verywellhealth.com/acl-tears-more-common-in-women-and-girls-2549223

 

Younger athletes, notably females, have significantly higher incidence. 

 

https://tinyurl.com/y7nu5fgb

 

I try to find studies that come closer to having subjects similar to the college football, NFL athlete (gender and age) if I can.

 

 

1 hour ago, Narcosys said:

 

https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/04/how_to_rehab_a_torn_acl.html

 

I already addressed this earlier-

 

1 hour ago, Narcosys said:

So I'm sorry, but I couldn't be more right.

 

 :-|

[Cynjin]

2 hours ago, Narcosys said:

We'll see how Hooker plays at game speed.

 

And you are more susceptible to ACL injuries after the first. 

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130711084135.htm

 

https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/04/how_to_rehab_a_torn_acl.html

 

So I'm sorry, but I couldn't be more right.

 

Like @ColtsBlueFL mentioned, females are more prone to tearing ACLs than males.  I don't remember why, but I have seen that data.  That being said, a study that just looked a females cannot be used to say that NFL players are more prone to re-injury.

[Narcosys]

4 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Remember SteelCityColt mentioning stats... and context?  I looked at this above and saw the subjects in the study. Did you know, there have been studies I've seen where female athletes suffered ACL injury 2 - 8 times higher than males?  Did you note the subjects of this study?

 

    "... 59 female, 19 male) between 10 and 25 years old"

 

and this - ""In our study, female athletes after ACLR demonstrated more than four times greater rate of injury within 24 months than their healthy counterparts.

 

https://www.verywellhealth.com/acl-tears-more-common-in-women-and-girls-2549223

 

Younger athletes, notably females, have significantly higher incidence. 

 

https://tinyurl.com/y7nu5fgb

 

I try to find studies that come closer to having subjects similar to the college football, NFL athlete (gender and age) if I can.

 

 

 

I already addressed this earlier-

 

 

 :-|

 

3 hours ago, Cynjin said:

 

Like @ColtsBlueFL mentioned, females are more prone to tearing ACLs than males.  I don't remember why, but I have seen that data.  That being said, a study that just looked a females cannot be used to say that NFL players are more prone to re-injury.

 

 

http://m.startribune.com/athletes-recover-from-acl-injuries-eventually/391891671/

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4780097/

 

 

You were saying?  All reports and studies conclude they are never the same, never return to their maximum potential, and are all much more likely to suffer another injury. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

19 hours ago, Narcosys said:

 

 

 

http://m.startribune.com/athletes-recover-from-acl-injuries-eventually/391891671/

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4780097/

 

 

You were saying? 

 

Quote

You said - "Serious disappointment, was expecting big things from him. It's a shame, he'll likely never play much again."

 

I say - We do not know yet, and I personally have never commented on this before.

 

Quote

You say - "Once you tear your acl, its a crap shoot as to whether you'll be able to play again or not. Sure he'll be 100%, but he is much more susceptible to re-injuring it. He won't be the same."

 

I say - Define much more?  It is my opinion (based upon studies I read, mostly researching Sam Bradford and his future prospects a while back) the athlete has nearly as good a chance for injury the 'other' ACL as to a repaired ACL.  But both chances go up after the first injury.  But I cannot, and do not comment on their performance level after reconstruction/revision.

 

Quote

Then you say - "And you are more susceptible to ACL injuries after the first. "

 

Revised down from much more to just more (which I now agree with, if reasonable numbers) , but then you cited a study that used 75% girls and young ladies under the age of 25 as the subjects, skewing the numbers for those that read it.

 

Quote

All reports and studies conclude they are never the same, never return to their maximum potential, and are all much more likely to suffer another injury. 

 

All?  Including this report (and you're also back to much more without defining it. (percent chance over what time frame)-

 

http://www.stack.com/a/5-nfl-stars-reveal-how-they-came-back-faster-stronger-and-better-following-acl-surgery

 

Even after a 2nd ACL reconstruction (either to original repaired one, or the healthy contra lateral one)

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5400221/

 

So that is what I was saying.

 

Also, if you are implying an ACLR means the players involved have a poor chance of coming back to play, and even then a lower chance of performing well, then I am not in total agreement.  To me, it is like a long field goal.  To make it you need a great snap (Good surgeon that performed the operation very well), a great hold and positioning of the ball (top flight Physical Therapist rehabbing the patient), and a determined kick with concentration (willing and capable patient committed to the whole rehab process). I believe how those 3 items come together will have a large bearing on the outcome; in both cases.

[Cynjin]

6 hours ago, Narcosys said:

 

 

 

http://m.startribune.com/athletes-recover-from-acl-injuries-eventually/391891671/

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4780097/

 

 

You were saying?  All reports and studies conclude they are never the same, never return to their maximum potential, and are all much more likely to suffer another injury. 

 

I was saying that a study that is of women only or even predominantly women cannot be used to draw a conclusion in regards to NFL players when the data suggests that women are more prone to ACL injuries than men..  I stand by that.

[Narcosys]

20 hours ago, Cynjin said:

 

I was saying that a study that is of women only or even predominantly women cannot be used to draw a conclusion in regards to NFL players when the data suggests that women are more prone to ACL injuries than men..  I stand by that.

You were pointing out how the study did not support the argument, so I found some specifically four nfl athletes. Majority of players do not return to play, play for extended period of time (more than one season), or play as well as they did before.

 

@Coltsblue wants to nit-pick semantics (more vs much more) (i would at 79% qualifies as much more btw) and 2/5 people in his article don't require the ACL as crucially as a WR, and another one that hasn't shown he can even play. 

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, Narcosys said:

You were pointing out how the study did not support the argument, so I found some specifically four nfl athletes. Majority of players do not return to play, play for extended period of time (more than one season), or play as well as they did before.

 

@Coltsblue wants to nit-pick semantics (more vs much more) (i would at 79% qualifies as much more btw) and 2/5 people in his article don't require the ACL as crucially as a WR, and another one that hasn't shown he can even play. 

Does Adrian Petterson, Tom Brady, Phillip Rivers, Frank Gore, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, Joe Thomas, Jeremy Maclin, Von Miller, Darrelle Revis or Eric Berry ring a bell?  These are just a few who had knee surgery and returned and most played as well or even better after their surgery.  The strides that have been made in that field has improved over the last few years where a knee injuries does not end nor hamper NFL players careers.  Getting over the mental issues these players get sometimes is tougher than the physical.

[ColtsBlueFL]

4 hours ago, Narcosys said:

You were pointing out how the study did not support the argument, so I found some specifically four nfl athletes. Majority of players do not return to play, play for extended period of time (more than one season), or play as well as they did before.

 

@Coltsblue wants to nit-pick semantics (more vs much more) (i would at 79% qualifies as much more btw) and 2/5 people in his article don't require the ACL as crucially as a WR, and another one that hasn't shown he can even play. 

 

Here's some that show 63% on average return (not that 79% don't)-

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5480637/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20610771

 

It was found he RTP rates after ACL reconstruction in NFL football players are lower than previously perceived, {less than my earlier (for Bradford) previous studies I saved had it at.}

"More experienced and established athletes are more likely to return to competition at the same level after this procedure than those with less professional experience. In addition being selected in the first 4 rounds of the NFL draft was highly predictive of RTP."

 

Even multiple ligament injury (ACL + another) return rates average 63%
(55% for ACL + LCL or PCL) and (71% for ACL + MCL)

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5542124/

 

Additional notes from Dr. Chao seems to show players just return too fast causing higher RTP failure rates-

 

****

At 13 months post-surgery and beyond, the ligament's re-growth is well along. Once the "ligamentization" process is complete, per Dr. Chao, the reconstructed ACL is as little as half as likely to rupture as the other knee's healthy ACL!

****

"Early return has become the industry standard," wrote Dr. Chao. "In a perfect world, an athlete would sit out two seasons before playing, but this is simply not practical."

 

Average RTP seems to be around 10.8 months, before ligamentization has taken place.

 

Now, Carson Wentz had an ACL + LCL.  The study above says Wentz has a 55% chance of returning. But he's doing 7 on 7 now, and maybe targeting 1st game return. ( I feel if Foles is good to go, to delay Wentz' return longer if they can.)

 

 

 

[Narcosys]

7 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Does Adrian Petterson, Tom Brady, Phillip Rivers, Frank Gore, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, Joe Thomas, Jeremy Maclin, Von Miller, Darrelle Revis or Eric Berry ring a bell?  These are just a few who had knee surgery and returned and most played as well or even better after their surgery.  The strides that have been made in that field has improved over the last few years where a knee injuries does not end nor hamper NFL players careers.  Getting over the mental issues these players get sometimes is tougher than the physical.

Oh ya, those ring a bell but the list of players who haven't is much longer. Just like the study pointed out, 79% of players only played for one more season. 

[Narcosys]

@ColtsBlueFL

 

Your study also notes that the majority of players study showed they were retears, and like have been saying, are more susceptible to injury than those who have not. The 79% comes from the average of play time after injury. It states that after returning from injury, they play in significantly less games and seasons than before. 

 

You both point to a handful of players to prove your point, but the fact remains the majority are not the same and do not return to play in the same manner if they weren't injured.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5400221/

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Narcosys said:

@ColtsBlueFL

 

Your study also notes that the majority of players study showed they were retears, and like have been saying, are more susceptible to injury than those who have not. The 79% comes from the average of play time after injury. It states that after returning from injury, they play in significantly less games and seasons than before. 

 

You both point to a handful of players to prove your point, but the fact remains the majority are not the same and do not return to play in the same manner if they weren't injured.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5400221/

Your listed study only studied 24 total players. If you read and list the factors your study does not say exactly what your are insinuating. Omitting all the percentages but the single one you mentioned in the study does not come to the conclusion you claim. Also the players who were studied were injured between 2007 and 2014.

This is taken from the exact site you are showing.

Over the last 4 years the procedure to repair knee injuries has vastly improved. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

3 hours ago, Narcosys said:

@ColtsBlueFL

 

Your study also notes that the majority of players study showed they were retears, and like have been saying, are more susceptible to injury than those who have not. The 79% comes from the average of play time after injury. It states that after returning from injury, they play in significantly less games and seasons than before. 

 

You both point to a handful of players to prove your point, but the fact remains the majority are not the same and do not return to play in the same manner if they weren't injured.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5400221/

 

Truth is that not all that long ago an ACL tear was career ending.  Now days, at minimum 2 out of 3 players return to play ( position related, IE: >93% of QB's return) from the first injury.  If a player that returned has a second ACL or revision, they still have an 80% return rate from that injury.  If you were drafted in the first 4 rounds, or played at least 55 games or 4 years before injury, your return rate goes up significantly higher than the others.

 

In reading the studies, it seems linemen ( O and D) and QB's that do return also return to pre-injury production. It is agreed that other skill players do show a drop off, and reduction in career length etc.  However, it is so player and position specific, generalizations cannot be made.  It is different for a first round QB, and a 3rd round DT, and a 7th round RB. Interventional advancements make the prognosis better with each passing year.

 

Each year, teams push players (and likely the players themselves do it too) back into sport before they are completely ready.  10.8 months average after first ACL, 12.6 months after a second because of the demand of the sport.

 

Here's a nice article on WR's coming back from an ACL-

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears/how-do-acl-tears-affect-wide-receivers-numbers-are-promising-allen-robinson-cameron-meredith

 

I always try to look glass half full in medical issues, and that numbers will always improve.  And maybe tudies performed from 2014-2018 will be much more promising than one done from 2007 - 2013, etc...  Because it wasn't all that long ago the ACL injury was career ending. Period.

 

 

 

 

 

[Narcosys]

@ColtsBlueFL @crazycolt1

 

There are also numerous examples of players who haven't returned, like RG3. He was of the 7% of QBs that didn't. I'm sure they're are plenty others as well like jamaal Charles, teddy Bridgewater, and what about the 51 other players who we have to wait and see on from last year.

 

Will deshaun Watson or carson wentz be the same? Allen Robinson, dalvin cook, or Hooker? We hope, we can have a positive outlook, but we don't know.

 

You nitpick my numbers left and right, but you're ok with using those same articles to support your argument when it suits you. At least keep some consistency. You're not getting anything that directly shows the exact positions that you're looking for. Many studies tend to group things together when numbers for specifics are low.

 

The 79% in general shows most players won't return for long, and many will retear. You can't deny it, even though you're giving it your all.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Narcosys said:

@ColtsBlueFL @crazycolt1

 

There are also numerous examples of players who haven't returned, like RG3. He was of the 7% of QBs that didn't. I'm sure they're are plenty others as well like jamaal Charles, teddy Bridgewater, and what about the 51 other players who we have to wait and see on from last year.

 

Will deshaun Watson or carson wentz be the same? Allen Robinson, dalvin cook, or Hooker? We hope, we can have a positive outlook, but we don't know.

 

You nitpick my numbers left and right, but you're ok with using those same articles to support your argument when it suits you. At least keep some consistency. You're not getting anything that directly shows the exact positions that you're looking for. Many studies tend to group things together when numbers for specifics are low.

 

The 79% in general shows most players won't return for long, and many will retear. You can't deny it, even though you're giving it your all.

I am not arguing with you. Your own article shows you are the one who hand picked one stat to try to prove your point. If you are going to use an article to try to make a point use the whole article.

RG3 is back in the league. Jamaal Charles averaged more yards per carry after his knee surgery.

Bridgewater is back playing.

Look, if you cant realize that the advancement of knee surgeries have improved to the point players are recovering from them I don't know what to tell you.  

[ColtsBlueFL]

17 hours ago, Narcosys said:

@ColtsBlueFL @crazycolt1

 

There are also numerous examples of players who haven't returned, like RG3. He was of the 7% of QBs that didn't. I'm sure they're are plenty others as well like jamaal Charles, teddy Bridgewater, and what about the 51 other players who we have to wait and see on from last year.

 

Will deshaun Watson or carson wentz be the same? Allen Robinson, dalvin cook, or Hooker? We hope, we can have a positive outlook, but we don't know.

 

 

They will be part of a future study, hopefully with much higher return rates reported.

 

Quote

 

You nitpick my numbers left and right, but you're ok with using those same articles to support your argument when it suits you. At least keep some consistency. You're not getting anything that directly shows the exact positions that you're looking for. Many studies tend to group things together when numbers for specifics are low.

 

 

There are many  out there-  here's just a small one

 

https://tinyurl.com/ydxqoxqz

Injury Trends By Position And Team Activity In The National Football League Between 2009-2014--(Hoffman)

 

Quote

 

The 79% in general shows most players won't return for long, and many will retear. You can't deny it, even though you're giving it your all.

 

Can you cut and paste the quote for this part (bold print), I can't see where you get that 80%  suffering ans ACL won't return or will be out of the league shortly thereafter.

 

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2017/02/22/bjsports-2016-096836

 

I have another site that says 83% of elite athletes return to sport, supporting one of the other sites listed earlier above.  That means lesser players may not play as long, but lesser players have a shorter shelf life in the NFL anyway, whether they had an ACL or not.

 

We agree that an ACL impacts some players.  And a tear increases the chances of re-injury some (even if it is the other side), but who, how much, and for how long we disagree.  So let's leave it there.

 

 

[Narcosys]

12 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I am not arguing with you. Your own article shows you are the one who hand picked one stat to try to prove your point. If you are going to use an article to try to make a point use the whole article.

RG3 is back in the league. Jamaal Charles averaged more yards per carry after his knee surgery.

Bridgewater is back playing.

Look, if you cant realize that the advancement of knee surgeries have improved to the point players are recovering from them I don't know what to tell you.  

I didn't say they weren't back, but they are not what they use to be. Is RG3 running all over the place as a starting QB? How about Bridgewater?

 

For sure, the advancements are great and the success rate is increasing. I just do not expect a full recovery as if nothing happened until the player proves otherwise. 

[crazycolt1]

52 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

I didn't say they weren't back, but they are not what they use to be. Is RG3 running all over the place as a starting QB? How about Bridgewater?

 

For sure, the advancements are great and the success rate is increasing. I just do not expect a full recovery as if nothing happened until the player proves otherwise. 

Anything more either one of us want to say is now argumentative. I have no more to say or add to this.

[WoolMagnet]

On 8/16/2018 at 4:07 PM, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

 

I say - We do not know yet, and I personally have never commented on this before.

 

 

I say - Define much more?  It is my opinion (based upon studies I read, mostly researching Sam Bradford and his future prospects a while back) the athlete has nearly as good a chance for injury the 'other' ACL as to a repaired ACL.  But both chances go up after the first injury.  But I cannot, and do not comment on their performance level after reconstruction/revision.

 

 

Revised down from much more to just more (which I now agree with, if reasonable numbers) , but then you cited a study that used 75% girls and young ladies under the age of 25 as the subjects, skewing the numbers for those that read it.

 

 

All?  Including this report (and you're also back to much more without defining it. (percent chance over what time frame)-

 

http://www.stack.com/a/5-nfl-stars-reveal-how-they-came-back-faster-stronger-and-better-following-acl-surgery

 

Even after a 2nd ACL reconstruction (either to original repaired one, or the healthy contra lateral one)

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5400221/

 

So that is what I was saying.

 

Also, if you are implying an ACLR means the players involved have a poor chance of coming back to play, and even then a lower chance of performing well, then I am not in total agreement.  To me, it is like a long field goal.  To make it you need a great snap (Good surgeon that performed the operation very well), a great hold and positioning of the ball (top flight Physical Therapist rehabbing the patient), and a determined kick with concentration (willing and capable patient committed to the whole rehab process). I believe how those 3 items come together will have a large bearing on the outcome; in both cases.

In the immortal words of Mr Pee Wee Herman.... "i know you are but what am I?"

[WoolMagnet]

Anybody know the Ravens defensive player(s) involved in the play Cain got hurt?  I read somewhere he was pushed from behind I think.

[SteelCityColt]

59 minutes ago, WoolMagnet said:

Anybody know the Ravens defensive player(s) involved in the play Cain got hurt?  I read somewhere he was pushed from behind I think.

 

I thought he got hurt against the Seahawks?

[WoolMagnet]

2 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I thought he got hurt against the Seahawks?

Haha.

i meant kj Brent.  Tuff keeping up.

just wonderin if it was that jean-baptiste character who was throwing all the punches.

[chad72]

I would want us to go after Dontrelle Inman, former Charger and Bear. I feel he might be more productive, given Reich's familiarity with him when he was a Charger. He has been productive when he has gotten the looks. Thoughts???

[jskinnz]

15 minutes ago, chad72 said:

I would want us to go after Dontrelle Inman, former Charger and Bear. I feel he might be more productive, given Reich's familiarity with him when he was a Charger. He has been productive when he has gotten the looks. Thoughts???

 

Maybe Reich's familiarity with Inman is the exact reason why they have not gone after him.  

[chad72]

3 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

Maybe Reich's familiarity with Inman is the exact reason why they have not gone after him.  

 

You have a valid point. We will see how it plays out. Inman has done better as a #3 wide out, it seems like, more than anything else, though I did find this interesting (though I felt it was cherry picking):