The Cap

[Superman]

LOL. I think the timeline to get the pre June 1 release benefits to avoid carryover, is to release players before June 1.

I'm sorry, I should be more specific. The NFL was in lockout mode June 1 of last year. No team could make any roster moves because there was no CBA. So it would seem they would have established a new date for cut deadlines, given the compacted offseason. I assumed that was the case. Was it not? Either way, June 1 was irrelevant in 2011.

[UndecidedFrog]

That being the case, we could do a heavily incentivized contract for him and keep his cap hit for 2012 at or below the $6.6 million. I didn't realize that; I thought the incentives were based on his last year played.

Any team could offer him a bonus for starting Week 1, another bonus for starting the first four games, another for starting the first 8 games, another for starting at least 12 games, another for starting the entire season, a playoff bonus, a 3,500 yard bonus, a 25 touchdown bonus, an MVP bonus, a Super Bowl bonus, etc., etc. He can rack these bonuses up, and the team could keep them off the cap for 2012 entirely.

Of course, that ship has sailed for us. The Colts are moving on. But he could get a $15 million signing bonus, and have a $5 million base salary, and make another $5-10 million in incentives, and get close to his $28 million bonus that he didn't get from us. And by the way, if we did that with him, those bonuses would be pushed into 2013, when we'll be flush with cap space.

Assuming what you have in mind is a 3 year contract, the $15MM signing bonus and the $5MM base salary will cause the 2012 cap to be hit at $8MM.

Adding another $8MM in NLTBE incentives (which in reality will be very easily earned) will provide PM with $28MM in real dollars this year, while hitting the cap with $8MM in 2012, and (assuming base salary continues at $5mm), $16MM in 2013 (if those NLTBE incentives are indeed earned).

Yes, the Colts could have done this deal. But the Colts were already tight. In order for PM to restructure, after being released, his 2012 cap hit could not exceed $6.6MM. Yes, you could have structured a new deal heavy with this NLTBE incentives acting as reality dollars. The only other constraint would be the base salary must be at least vet minimum.

[UndecidedFrog]

I'm sorry, I should be more specific. The NFL was in lockout mode June 1 of last year. No team could make any roster moves because there was no CBA. So it would seem they would have established a new date for cut deadlines, given the compacted offseason. I assumed that was the case. Was it not? Either way, June 1 was irrelevant in 2011.

OK. I don't know what the situation was for the otherwise pre-June 1 date was due to the lockout situation last season.

I do know that in 2011, the salary cap situation was very tight, and it may well have been BP/CP decision not to release Hayden and McClendon until after the cutoff date, to purposely shift some of that dead cap space into 2012.

[Superman]

Assuming what you have in mind is a 3 year contract, the $15MM signing bonus and the $5MM base salary will cause the 2012 cap to be hit at $8MM.

Adding another $8MM in NLTBE incentives (which in reality will be very easily earned) will provide PM with $28MM in real dollars this year, while hitting the cap with $8MM in 2012, and (assuming base salary continues at $5mm), $16MM in 2013 (if those NLTBE incentives are indeed earned).

Yes, the Colts could have done this deal. But the Colts were already tight. In order for PM to restructure, after being released, his 2012 cap hit could not exceed $6.6MM. Yes, you could have structured a new deal heavy with this NLTBE incentives acting as reality dollars. The only other constraint would be the base salary must be at least vet minimum.

To the bold, his cap hit could not exceed $6.6 million *** if your primary objective was to lower his 2012 cap hit. That's not really the primary objective, not if you can save $28 million on the bonus and give him a lower cap hit in subsequent years, and have more flexibility moving forward.

Again, this ship has sailed. We're not doing this. But his status in 2011 would have made it really easy to compensate him as a top flight quarterback, so long as he's still a top flight quarterback. And if not, he'd have been gone with minimal damage.

[Superman]

OK. I don't know what the situation was for the otherwise pre-June 1 date was due to the lockout situation last season.

I do know that in 2011, the salary cap situation was very tight, and it may well have been BP/CP decision not to release Hayden and McClendon until after the cutoff date, to purposely shift some of that dead cap space into 2012.

McClendon's carryover is minimal, isn't it? I think they kept him through camp. He might have been part of the cut to 75, but I assuming his carryover is minimal, it probably had nothing to do with the cap.

Hayden, that could very well be the case. I just assumed that we were done with his contract at this point, and it's funny to talk about June 1 when there really was no June 1 last year.

[MAC]

when wa sthis that he turned down a 100 million, and why would he accept 90 million and turn down 100 you would think when your talking about money that high seriously whats an extra 10 million

It's common knowledge that Irsay wanted to make Manning the highest paid player in football. He said so many times. Manning wasn't concerned with being the highest paid player in football, he was concerned with winning. He took less with the understanding that the cap room would be used to improve the team (which it was), and he obviously allowed them to structure the deal to allow them to get out of the contract if his injury became a problem (which they did).

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/30/colts-peyton-manning-agree-to-5-year-90-million-contract/

[UndecidedFrog]

To the bold, his cap hit could not exceed $6.6 million *** if your primary objective was to lower his 2012 cap hit. That's not really the primary objective, not if you can save $28 million on the bonus and give him a lower cap hit in subsequent years, and have more flexibility moving forward.

Again, this ship has sailed. We're not doing this. But his status in 2011 would have made it really easy to compensate him as a top flight quarterback, so long as he's still a top flight quarterback. And if not, he'd have been gone with minimal damage.

I think a restructuring of the PM contract would have several important objectives.

Among them would be:

1) lower or be neutral to the then current cap hit

2) remove or mitigate the risk of PM not playing out his contract and subjecting the team to massive acceleration of bonus prorations

3) lower overall value of the contract

Yes, this ship has sailed.

[UndecidedFrog]

McClendon's carryover is minimal, isn't it? I think they kept him through camp. He might have been part of the cut to 75, but I assuming his carryover is minimal, it probably had nothing to do with the cap.

Hayden, that could very well be the case. I just assumed that we were done with his contract at this point, and it's funny to talk about June 1 when there really was no June 1 last year.

Yes, McClendon's carryover is a little more than $200K.

Hayden is responsible for a carryover of $5.4MM

[FireJimCaldwell]

Colts & other teams might be getting 1.6 more added to their cap.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7677375/sources-dallas-cowboys-washington-redskins-lose-millions-cap-space

The salary cap is projected to be $120.6 million in 2012, but the Cowboys will lose $10 million, while the Redskins will be docked $36 million in cap space, sources said.

Dallas and Washington can split the cap loss over the 2012 and '13 seasons in whatever form they prefer, with $1.6 million each going to 28 other NFL teams, the sources said.

[UndecidedFrog]

Colts & other teams might be getting 1.6 more added to their cap.

http://espn.go.com/n...lions-cap-space

The salary cap is projected to be $120.6 million in 2012, but the Cowboys will lose $10 million, while the Redskins will be docked $36 million in cap space, sources said.

Dallas and Washington can split the cap loss over the 2012 and '13 seasons in whatever form they prefer, with $1.6 million each going to 28 other NFL teams, the sources said.

Thanks for the article.

What is unclear to me is if this $1.643MM is in addition to the $120.6MM cap or not.

If it is not in addition (already included), then my information about the health care costs portion of the players' benefit pool would have been accurate such that the cap was decreased to $119, and then due to this Cowboy/Redskin punishment, increased to $120.6.

I will dig for more information on this $1.6.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Thanks for the article.

What is unclear to me is if this $1.643MM is in addition to the $120.6MM cap or not.

If it is not in addition (already included), then my information about the health care costs portion of the players' benefit pool would have been accurate such that the cap was decreased to $119, and then due to this Cowboy/Redskin punishment, increased to $120.6.

I will dig for more information on this $1.6.

That's a good question.. Wasn't the 119 more of an estimate based on the rumors that it would be lower? Since it came out a day after the 120.6 cap announcement, it is hard to say. Since it's Schefter reporting, I'm waiting on the NFL to make a formal announcement.

[Kirie89]

Here are mine 2012 cap numbers. How much difference is it to the numbers you other guys have?

Contracted Players: 37

Cap Hit (contracted): 60 288 429

I used spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap-hit/ (which has been updated the last few days) with some changes: Mathis 2012 cap hit to 5 750 000, put a signing bonus on Bethea with a 2012 cap hit of 1 825 000, removed Jerrell Freeman (he is like a rookie anyway) and put on Seth Olsen (565 000 cap hit), Ricardo Mathews (490 000 cap hit) and Terrence Johnson (450 000 cap hit). Changes came from NO PROMOTIONAL POSTING ON THE SITEsite/content/salary-cap.html except Mathis, who I got from this forum.

Rookie Players: 16

Cap Hit (Rookies): 11 550 000

I used Frog’s numbers, only changed number of rookies since I have more contracted players.

Dead Money Players: 9

Cap Hit (Dead Money): 37 827 821

I used spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap-hit/ (which has been updated the last few days) with one change: Manning’s number to 10 400 000.

Colts Cap Hit: 109 666 250

NFL Cap: 120 600 000

Colts Cap Rollover: 2 500 000

Colts Cap Space: 13 433 750

[UndecidedFrog]

That's a good question.. Wasn't the 119 more of an estimate based on the rumors that it would be lower? Since it came out a day after the 120.6 cap announcement, it is hard to say. Since it's Schefter reporting, I'm waiting on the NFL to make a formal announcement.

Yes, I am tuned into NFL.com for any announcement on this Cowboys/Redskins penalty and the $1.6 for the 28 teams.

It is still unclear to me why the Saints and the Raiders will not participate in the winnings.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Yes, I am tuned into NFL.com for any announcement on this Cowboys/Redskins penalty and the $1.6 for the 28 teams.

It is still unclear to me why the Saints and the Raiders will not participate in the winnings.

From one of the articles I read, maybe PFT, they were being penalized by not receiving the 1.6 because they did the same thing but not to the level that the Cowboys or Redskins did.

To me it sounds like a smart move to put $ into an uncapped year. If they were warned about it and did it, then it is a different story.

[UndecidedFrog]

Here are mine 2012 cap numbers. How much difference is it to the numbers you other guys have?

Contracted Players: 37

Cap Hit (contracted): 60 288 429

I used spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap-hit/ (which has been updated the last few days) with some changes: Mathis 2012 cap hit to 5 750 000, put a signing bonus on Bethea with a 2012 cap hit of 1 825 000, removed Jerrell Freeman (he is like a rookie anyway) and put on Seth Olsen (565 000 cap hit), Ricardo Mathews (490 000 cap hit) and Terrence Johnson (450 000 cap hit). Changes came from http://www.coltsauth...salary-cap.html except Mathis, who I got from this forum.

Rookie Players: 16

Cap Hit (Rookies): 11 550 000

I used Frog’s numbers, only changed number of rookies since I have more contracted players.

Dead Money Players: 9

Cap Hit (Dead Money): 37 827 821

I used spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap-hit/ (which has been updated the last few days) with one change: Manning’s number to 10 400 000.

Colts Cap Hit: 109 666 250

NFL Cap: 120 600 000

Colts Cap Rollover: 2 500 000

Colts Cap Space: 13 433 750

Good job. I have just noticed that sportrac has updated a lot of contracts.

Where did you get the Colts cap roll over number from?

Here are my revised numbers:

2012 cap

updated to reflect K. Hayden and J. McClendon carryover cap hits

updated to reflect updates to the contracts data base spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap-hit/

38 players under contract (inlcuding Freeman) = $59.92MM

9 players with dead cap space = $37.83MM

Luck = $4.20MM

14 Rookies= $6.96MM (allowing aggregate $1.5MM in premiums to picks #34 and #65)

Total = $108.91MM

Cap = $120.6MM

Additional cap space awarded by league (Cowboys/Redskins penalty) = $1.643MM

Available = $13.33MM

[UndecidedFrog]

From one of the articles I read, maybe PFT, they were being penalized by not receiving the 1.6 because they did the same thing but not to the level that the Cowboys or Redskins did.

To me it sounds like a smart move to put $ into an uncapped year. If they were warned about it and did it, then it is a different story.

Hey if I were GM, I would definitely take advantage and put the big money in the uncapped year, unless of course, the league office warned me against such practice, which may yield penalties...like this one.

[Gavin]

Im kinda surprised Antonio Johnson is still with us

[FireJimCaldwell]

Hey if I were GM, I would definitely take advantage and put the big money in the uncapped year, unless of course, the league office warned me against such practice, which may yield penalties...like this one.

To me it is no different from trying to bring in a free agent with the following deal

5 years 25 million SB

2012 5 sb 1 base sal 6 cap hit

2013 5 sb 2 base sal 7 cap hit

2014 5 sb 10 base sal 15 cap hit

2015 5 sb 12 base sal 17 cap hit

2016 5 sb 15 base sal 20 cap hit

It's taking advantage of the TV deal starting in 2014.

It seems they were told not to do it and did it anyway... So be it...

[Kirie89]

Where did you get the Colts cap roll over number from?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/12/remaining-2011-cap-space-by-team/

[UndecidedFrog]

http://profootballta...-space-by-team/

Thanks.

2012 cap

updated to reflect K. Hayden and J. McClendon carryover cap hits

updated to reflect updates to the contracts data base spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap-hit/

updated to relect the positive carryover from 2011 http://profootballta...-space-by-team/

38 players under contract (inlcuding Freeman) = $59.92MM

9 players with dead cap space = $37.83MM

Luck = $4.20MM

14 Rookies= $6.96MM (allowing aggregate $1.5MM in premiums to picks #34 and #65)

Total = $108.91MM

Cap = $120.6MM

2011 cap rollover = $2.5MM

Additional cap space awarded by league (Cowboys/Redskins penalty) = $1.643MM

Available = $15.83MM

[Superman]

Im kinda surprised Antonio Johnson is still with us

When did we resign Antonio Johnson? I thought he signed a one year deal last year...

[Gavin]

I just now looked on the roster on this site, hes on it still, maybe he will be a free agent I didnt look that far into it but Antonio Johnson is still listed as on the team

[UndecidedFrog]

When did we resign Antonio Johnson? I thought he signed a one year deal last year...

I just now looked on the roster on this site, hes on it still, maybe he will be a free agent I didnt look that far into it but Antonio Johnson is still listed as on the team

Yes he is on the roster, and counts at $1.75MM to the 2012 cap.

[ace_6900]

Yes he is on the roster, and counts at $1.75MM to the 2012 cap.

wonder if we could sign someone like say mario williams and pay him 5 million the first year and defer the additional amount for the following yearts when we have more cap space? That way we could get Nicks. Landry. Grubbs. or others like that

[FireJimCaldwell]

wonder if we could sign someone like say mario williams and pay him 5 million the first year and defer the additional amount for the following yearts when we have more cap space? That way we could get Nicks. Landry. Grubbs. or others like that

If the team has the space and the player is willing to do it, then the contract could be worked to where he received a guaranteed bonus in year 2(2013).

[Gavin]

why is Antonio Johnson still on the roster, Thoughts?

[Kirie89]

wonder if we could sign someone like say mario williams and pay him 5 million the first year and defer the additional amount for the following yearts when we have more cap space? That way we could get Nicks. Landry. Grubbs. or others like that

If the team has the space and the player is willing to do it, then the contract could be worked to where he received a guaranteed bonus in year 2(2013).

It should not be that hard to get players to sign contracts with lower cap numbers in 2012 and higher in later years. In real money the players get the signing bonus the first year so they would not need that much salary, but in cap numbers the bonus is spread out over the whole contract. Therefore the players get a lot of guaranteed money early on, but the cap hit comes later.

For the Colts who have a lot of cap space in 2013 and with the cap being significantly larger from 2014 and onwards it would be a possible option.

[Superman]

Yes he is on the roster, and counts at $1.75MM to the 2012 cap.

I see the same thing, but where is that deal from? When did he re-sign?

[Gavin]

better yet, whyyyyyyyyyyyy did they resign him

[wabbwubb]

Thanks.

2012 cap

updated to reflect K. Hayden and J. McClendon carryover cap hits

updated to reflect updates to the contracts data base spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap-hit/

updated to relect the positive carryover from 2011 http://profootballta...-space-by-team/

38 players under contract (inlcuding Freeman) = $59.92MM

9 players with dead cap space = $37.83MM

Luck = $4.20MM

14 Rookies= $6.96MM (allowing aggregate $1.5MM in premiums to picks #34 and #65)

Total = $108.91MM

Cap = $120.6MM

2011 cap rollover = $2.5MM

Additional cap space awarded by league (Cowboys/Redskins penalty) = $1.643MM

Available = $15.83MM

So when freeney is off the books via cut/trade we will have 15.83 + 14 = 29.83MM for free agents? That is a good chunk this year to sign some young FA.

[UndecidedFrog]

I see the same thing, but where is that deal from? When did he re-sign?

According to my contract database. they signed him to a 3 year contract starting 2011.

better yet, whyyyyyyyyyyyy did they resign him

No idea. Is he dating a Polian daughter?

[UndecidedFrog]

So when freeney is off the books via cut/trade we will have 15.83 + 14 = 29.83MM for free agents? That is a good chunk this year to sign some young FA.

Yes. Maybe even a few.

[Superman]

better yet, whyyyyyyyyyyyy did they resign him

Honestly, my question at this point is still stuck in the "when," because I've seen no report of a new contract for him. If, in fact, they did re-sign him, it would have been a new one year deal since the end of the season, because he signed for one year last offseason, according to all reports. I think there might be some erroneous information out there. At the very least, there should be some kind of note that he signed for another year recently.

[Superman]

According to my contract database. they signed him to a 3 year contract starting 2011.

But according to all contract sites, his deal ends in 2012, so something's not accurate.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4363/antonio-johnson

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/antonio-johnson/

I really think he's a free agent. Doesn't matter to me; at the least he's a rotational tackle on a team short on tackles. But I don't know where we're getting his contract details from.

[Gavin]

Me either but like you said hes a rotational guy at best, not long term solution

[wabbwubb]

Yes. Maybe even a few.

Fyi i used your post that had it all broken down in the free agents thread and made sure to let people know i got it from you in this thread.

[UndecidedFrog]

But according to all contract sites, his deal ends in 2012, so something's not accurate.

http://www.rotoworld...antonio-johnson

http://www.spotrac.c...ntonio-johnson/

I really think he's a free agent. Doesn't matter to me; at the least he's a rotational tackle on a team short on tackles. But I don't know where we're getting his contract details from.

These sources update and change contract details pretty often.

NO PROMOTIONAL POSTING ON THE SITEsite/content/salary-cap.html

Here is one that claims he is on contract for 3 years.

[MAC]

With all this "Cap" talk! Make sure that you don't include any "Trade" talk or it might get shut down for being too political.

[Gavin]

dang confusing trying to wrap your head around the cap talk I suck at math, I think Ill take a break and go to cap talk a while, not like we can do much right now but still interesting

[vitoaf27]

If the team has the space and the player is willing to do it, then the contract could be worked to where he received a guaranteed bonus in year 2(2013).

I was thinking the same thing as you guys, but then began to wonder about why the player would be enticed into a deal in which he wouldn't receive any bonuses or guaranteed money up front. Say we structure a contract where his cap his and real monies is very minimal in his 1st year on the deal, but heavy starting years 2 and beyond. What if the player under performs, and is subsequently cut after the first year with minimal real monies paid to him? I'm not sure any player would agree to a deal like that, unless there is some sort of clause they can put in there which guarantees him a roster spot on the 2013 roster.