Just A Few Questions

[doogansquest]

DISCLAIMER: I do not endorse the questions as my own, nor will I side with any opinion in this thread. I am merely posting questions with regards to some of the more frequent, and dividing comments we've seen recently on our beloved boards. I also only want to see people's personal opinions, not some made up conclusion drawn about the things spoken by the media, which are no more than speculative, or the idea that Mr. Irsay and Mr. Manning are at odds!!! Please feel free to answer one, or all of the questions. Discuss!

Why are people saying that we have to move on from Peyton even if he's healthy?

Is winning now not as important as 6 or 7 years from now? Why does the timeframe matter?

Why is dumping Manning universally accepted as the best thing for the franchise?

When would it ever be optimal for the franchise to let the best player in football go when he can still win for you as you build the next gen team?

Why can't he and Luck coexist now that it looks as though he's getting better?

Just a few weeks ago, when everyone stated Peyton may be done forever, the idea of having Luck and Manning was a fine prospect to many. Why did that go away? The $28 million thing was well-known by that point, so nothing changed, only now Manning's health has improved. Why the change of heart?

Why is no one is allowed to be positive, or pro-Manning anymore? To even hint at anything positive towards the greatest player to don a horseshoe brings a slew of flames to that poster. Even comments not directed at anyone, not anti-Luck or anti-Irsay, just won't be tolerated around here for some reason. Why is that?

Did the idea of a healthy Manning and Luck on the same team suddenly become a bad one? It was an idea endorsed by the vast majority only a few weeks ago, and now we have positive news regarding Manning's health, a new system and coaching staff to implement, and the potential to win now AND going forward. Why did it become a "bad" idea?

That is all for now. If I think of more, I will add them.

[Dan]

I'll try them... attempting to be open minded but adding my own opinions

Why are people saying that we have to move on from Peyton even if he's healthy

I think the main viewpoint here is that if we're rebuilding we might as well rebuild the whole thing? I personally don't agree - if he wasn't injured at all nobody would have ever suggested to move on, so if he comes back completely healthy why is it suddenly time to drop him?!

Is winning now not as important as 6 or 7 years from now? Why does the timeframe matter?

The idea is that Luck has a longer timespan left so if he ends up being as good as his current potential suggests, he'll win more?

Why is dumping Manning universally accepted as the best thing for the franchise?

Beats me.

When would it ever be optimal for the franchise to let the best player in football go when he can still win for you as you build the next gen team?

I think the only thing making it seem a good idea is if we're really, really confident Luck is just like Manning but younger. Frankly though, I don't know. Rebuilding shouldn't mean weakening, and losing Peyton Manning makes you weaker whoever you are.

Why can't he and Luck coexist now that it looks as though he's getting better?

I have no idea why it's so accepted that they can't. I've seen it said several times it's impossible - why? Manning has said he can coexist with anybody and Luck has said he'd embrace the chance to learn from Peyton?

Just a few weeks ago, when everyone stated Peyton may be done forever, the idea of having Luck and Manning was a fine prospect to many. Why did that go away? The $28 million thing was well-known by that point, so nothing changed, only now Manning's health has improved. Why the change of heart?

Nope, no idea why the change of heart. No answer to this!

Why is no one is allowed to be positive, or pro-Manning anymore? To even hint at anything positive towards the greatest player to don a horseshoe brings a slew of flames to that poster. Even comments not directed at anyone, not anti-Luck or anti-Irsay, just won't be tolerated around here for some reason. Why is that?

It's a passionate time and a lot of people get carried away - you and I both know that!

Did the idea of a healthy Manning and Luck on the same team suddenly become a bad one? It was an idea endorsed by the vast majority only a few weeks ago, and now we have positive news regarding Manning's health, a new system and coaching staff to implement, and the potential to win now AND going forward. Why did it become a "bad" idea?

It's always been a bad idea to some, like I said earlier I don't know why.

[coltsblue1844]

it wouldnt surprise me, as much as Irsay monitors what the fans say, if some of the "anti-Manning" pro "time to move on" people are being planted on here to try and change people's opinions.

Am i the only one who finds it odd that when everyone was anti-Polian, there were a slew of people (ESPECIALLY that dn whatever the name guy) who were VERY PRO-Polian on here and they would defend everything about him...and then once he was fired, they all went away, strangely enough...

Not saying that it IS happening, but i wouldnt be shocked in the least.

[Scipio]

Humans are fickle, and many just like to move with the heard.

[DudeFromTennessee]

Unfortunately I think it's been made clear that many don't want Peyton there regardless of what the docs say, and that's sad...

[presto123]

If Irsay knew without a doubt that Peyton would regain all of his performance level there is no debate. Peyton is a Colt for life. You can bet Irsay knows far more than anybody on this message board about where Peyton's arm is right now. I get tired of people speculating that Peyton being back at some point is a sure thing when that is far from a given and actually Peyton's progress has been slower than expected as far as nerve regeneration. What do you expect Irsay to do if Peyton still isn't close to throwing well on March 7? These conditions can plateau at any time and then where would we be?

[Jaric]

Why is no one is allowed to be positive, or pro-Manning anymore? To even hint at anything positive towards the greatest player to don a horseshoe brings a slew of flames to that poster. Even comments not directed at anyone, not anti-Luck or anti-Irsay, just won't be tolerated around here for some reason. Why is that?

Well, first off, I would argue that isn't the case at all. In fact I'd argue it's become largely the exact opposite. Everytime I see someone post anything other than rainbows and butterflies regarding keeping Manning that person gets accused of hating the colts and being just so in love with Andrew Luck they want Manning out.

Which is nonsense. What I'm seeing alot of is people searching high and low for anything they can point to as proof whatever supports their opinion on the matter is, regardless of how relevent.

Take the Adam V thread. Lets be honest, Adam saying manning looks good really doesn't mean much. But some people took that as gospel that the matter was settled when it was anything but that. When it got pointed out, one of the most reasonable and level headed posters on this site was all but run out on a rail because of it.

That crap has got to stop. But to be honest, I'm really fed up with getting accused and seeing other accused of hating manning or being Jason LaConfora's BFF and blinding listening to him just because I take the stance that the issue around Manning's health isn't resolved.

There are serious ramifications to picking up the option bonus on a less than healthy Manning. I don't think pointing that out means I hate the team or am in anyway ungrateful for what Manning has meant to this franchise. I've tried reasoning with people on that and largely gotten nowhere. Now I've decided if I'm going to be accused of it I'm just going to run with it and use the power of sarcastic hyperbole to make my point about just how ludicris some of these claims being made by the Manning brigade are.

I want what's best for the Colts. In most situations that involved Manning at the QB but if that becomes what's NOT best for the Colts...

[Jaric]

Did the idea of a healthy Manning and Luck on the same team suddenly become a bad one? It was an idea endorsed by the vast majority only a few weeks ago, and now we have positive news regarding Manning's health, a new system and coaching staff to implement, and the potential to win now AND going forward. Why did it become a "bad" idea?

It's not as far as I'm concerned. It's actually (IMO) the ideal situation.

[Jaric]

Why are people saying that we have to move on from Peyton even if he's healthy?

Why is dumping Manning universally accepted as the best thing for the franchise?

Gonna answer these together. First off it depends on who "people" are. If it's media, well if Manning gets released they have about 5 months worth of articles already written. Makes their jobs alot easier.

Now, there is an argument to be made for moving on from a healthy Manning. I don't endorse it, but I'm going to make it to answer the question. Please keep in mind though, I'm NOT saying this is what I think should happen.

It's basically an issue of cap space. Really no more or less. We could take the money Manning is getting and jump start the rebuilding of our defense. If we really are switching to a 3-4 (which appears to be the situation) we're going to need to do some serious shuffling and some guys will just flat out not fit. The idea being that you move forward with Luck, and use Manning's money to fill holes. Not unlike the theory of trading the Luck pick for draft picks/players to fill those holes for Manning, just with Luck as the starter instead.

[WSO]

it wouldnt surprise me, as much as Irsay monitors what the fans say, if some of the "anti-Manning" pro "time to move on" people are being planted on here to try and change people's opinions.

Am i the only one who finds it odd that when everyone was anti-Polian, there were a slew of people (ESPECIALLY that dn whatever the name guy) who were VERY PRO-Polian on here and they would defend everything about him...and then once he was fired, they all went away, strangely enough...

Not saying that it IS happening, but i wouldnt be shocked in the least.

Lol

[Balzer40]

Why is no one is allowed to be positive, or pro-Manning anymore? To even hint at anything positive towards the greatest player to don a horseshoe brings a slew of flames to that poster. Even comments not directed at anyone, not anti-Luck or anti-Irsay, just won't be tolerated around here for some reason. Why is that?

Well, first off, I would argue that isn't the case at all. In fact I'd argue it's become largely the exact opposite. Everytime I see someone post anything other than rainbows and butterflies regarding keeping Manning that person gets accused of hating the colts and being just so in love with Andrew Luck they want Manning out.

Which is nonsense. What I'm seeing alot of is people searching high and low for anything they can point to as proof whatever supports their opinion on the matter is, regardless of how relevent.

Take the Adam V thread. Lets be honest, Adam saying manning looks good really doesn't mean much. But some people took that as gospel that the matter was settled when it was anything but that. When it got pointed out, one of the most reasonable and level headed posters on this site was all but run out on a rail because of it.

That crap has got to stop. But to be honest, I'm really fed up with getting accused and seeing other accused of hating manning or being Jason LaConfora's BFF and blinding listening to him just because I take the stance that the issue around Manning's health isn't resolved.

There are serious ramifications to picking up the option bonus on a less than healthy Manning. I don't think pointing that out means I hate the team or am in anyway ungrateful for what Manning has meant to this franchise. I've tried reasoning with people on that and largely gotten nowhere. Now I've decided if I'm going to be accused of it I'm just going to run with it and use the power of sarcastic hyperbole to make my point about just how ludicris some of these claims being made by the Manning brigade are.

I want what's best for the Colts. In most situations that involved Manning at the QB but if that becomes what's NOT best for the Colts...

Good post. Like I said in another thread there is a lot of people saying they won't believe any reports coming out on Manning, that is until they find one that supports their agenda and then of course its gospel truth. This whole Manning thing is tearing Colts fans apart because there are those that accept that Manning is probably done in Indy and maybe done, Period! And then there are those that want Manning to come back without regard to the implications to the franchise if he never gets back to being who he was. I've seen several that are very open minded and would love to see Manning and Luck co-exist and would be all for Manning staying here, but there seems to many more posters that completely have their minds closed to anything other than Manning better be here or else kind of attitude.

[UndecidedFrog]

Okay, I will try providing you my opinion in my answers:

Why are people saying that we have to move on from Peyton even if he's healthy?

This depends on what you mean by "healthy". If healthy means PM is 100% back to his pre-injury self, I am not in favor of moving on from PM. Anything less, and I am in the gray zone, where I would have to seriously weigh the pros and cons versus drafting and starting a highly-rated QB prospect. When the number hits 80% or below, I become okay with the idea of moving on from PM.

Is winning now not as important as 6 or 7 years from now? Why does the timeframe matter?

Winning always matters. However, sustained capacity to win in the longer term outranks shorter term capacity to win.

IOW, I will trade 3 potential SBs in the next 4 years for 12 potential SBs in the next 16 years.

Why is dumping Manning universally accepted as the best thing for the franchise?

It isn't universally accepted as the best thing for the franchise as evidenced by the acrimony on these forums. If it were universally accepted, there would be no disagreement or argument.

IF PM is not 100% back to his pre-injury form, and there is no confident prognosis that he will get back in time for the 2012 season start, I think it is best that the team moves on with a new starting QB. IF PM cannot play because his nerve has not regenerated sufficiently, and he opts to retire, I am in favor of retaining him as a non-playing QB coach for the team.

When would it ever be optimal for the franchise to let the best player in football go when he can still win for you as you build the next gen team?

When the following judgment items tip the scales in favor of moving on:

1) Age

2) Injury,

3) %Recovery,

4) Health status from a safety perspective,

5) Health status from a performance perspective.

6) Alternative options and their respective projected quality.

These items will need to be quantified in terms of what they are projected to be going forward. What has happened in the past is in the past, and not considered in the analysis.

Why can't he and Luck coexist now that it looks as though he's getting better?

First, it does not look as though PM is getting better. There is no credible evidence to support that assertion. So far, what I know, based on credible evidence, is:

1) PM has been cleared medically by the docs to play football based on the fusion results. This is from a safety perspective and has no bearing on his performance capability.

2) PM has stated that he is trying to get better, and is rehabing hard and does not plan on retirement.

I base my opinion that it is not favorable for a team undergoing rebuilding to have PM and Luck on the same team purely on the financial impact on real dollars and cap space and PM-associated risks on several scenarios that will impact those financials. I give no credence to the merits of PM mentoring other QBs, because that isn't and shouldn't be his job as a QB.

Just a few weeks ago, when everyone stated Peyton may be done forever, the idea of having Luck and Manning was a fine prospect to many. Why did that go away? The $28 million thing was well-known by that point, so nothing changed, only now Manning's health has improved. Why the change of heart?

I am not sure it did go away. One thing I can be sure of, is that there will always be differing opinions on these forums.

I don't think PM's health has improved. Medical clearance to play football (from a safety perspective) is not much different than medically cleared to aggressively rehab by throwing the football (provided in December). Neither speaks to his ability to throw for distance, accuracy, velocity, etc.

Why is no one is allowed to be positive, or pro-Manning anymore? To even hint at anything positive towards the greatest player to don a horseshoe brings a slew of flames to that poster. Even comments not directed at anyone, not anti-Luck or anti-Irsay, just won't be tolerated around here for some reason. Why is that?

I doubt that anyone is not allowed to be positive, or negative. People are allowed to be what they want to be. Everyone is allowed to express their opinion (IMO). However, people are not allowed to make up their own facts without some expectation of getting called on it. If getting called on making up facts or misquoting people are considered Anti-PM, or Anti-Luck, or Anti-Irsay, so be it.

Did the idea of a healthy Manning and Luck on the same team suddenly become a bad one? It was an idea endorsed by the vast majority only a few weeks ago, and now we have positive news regarding Manning's health, a new system and coaching staff to implement, and the potential to win now AND going forward. Why did it become a "bad" idea?

It became a bad idea to me when I learned about the financial consequences of such a plan, coupled with the current risks involved with paying the $28MM due March 8, that revolve around the uncertainties of PM's performance recovery.

[gacker65]

I would like to agree with Doogan. Why all the changes. I have a few questions of my own. 1) Why is no one allowed to say anything negative about Luck? 2) Why can't we draft a lower QB to help build a more complete team?

[fvantagio]

DISCLAIMER: I do not endorse the questions as my own, nor will I side with any opinion in this thread. I am merely posting questions with regards to some of the more frequent, and dividing comments we've seen recently on our beloved boards. I also only want to see people's personal opinions, not some made up conclusion drawn about the things spoken by the media, which are no more than speculative, or the idea that Mr. Irsay and Mr. Manning are at odds!!! Please feel free to answer one, or all of the questions. Discuss!

Why are people saying that we have to move on from Peyton even if he's healthy?

Is winning now not as important as 6 or 7 years from now? Why does the timeframe matter?

Why is dumping Manning universally accepted as the best thing for the franchise?

When would it ever be optimal for the franchise to let the best player in football go when he can still win for you as you build the next gen team?

Why can't he and Luck coexist now that it looks as though he's getting better?

Just a few weeks ago, when everyone stated Peyton may be done forever, the idea of having Luck and Manning was a fine prospect to many. Why did that go away? The $28 million thing was well-known by that point, so nothing changed, only now Manning's health has improved. Why the change of heart?

Why is no one is allowed to be positive, or pro-Manning anymore? To even hint at anything positive towards the greatest player to don a horseshoe brings a slew of flames to that poster. Even comments not directed at anyone, not anti-Luck or anti-Irsay, just won't be tolerated around here for some reason. Why is that?

Did the idea of a healthy Manning and Luck on the same team suddenly become a bad one? It was an idea endorsed by the vast majority only a few weeks ago, and now we have positive news regarding Manning's health, a new system and coaching staff to implement, and the potential to win now AND going forward. Why did it become a "bad" idea?

That is all for now. If I think of more, I will add them.

My guess is that it is the inaccurate propaganda by the media who wants to create a storyline and thats it. So they talk about it every day, ignore what Manning and Irsay are saying and insist that Manning wont play for the Colts. Its funny though, because they talk about other teams he could play on...uuhh I thought he wasnt going to be healthy Locanfora? Now your talking about him playing on Arizona? What part about the "If he is healthy he plays" confuses you? Im sure we could all collect our heads and help you spell out the words.

I must say I have never been so annoyed at a talking head. I understand he is doing his job, but c'mon now Locanfool your setting yourself up to look like an dipstick...But perhaps it will be worth it, wipe that darn smirk off his face whenever he talks about Manning being injured.

[WSO]

I would like to agree with Doogan. Why all the changes. I have a few questions of my own. 1) Why is no one allowed to say anything negative about Luck? 2) Why can't we draft a lower QB to help build a more complete team?

There are many negative things being said about Luck but the problem is most of them are along the line of "he will be a bust" "he will be unproven" which really isn't an argument in itself. Anyone can flop coming into the NFL. Anyone can become a super star.

Some actual negative things being said about Luck that are debated and hold some ground are his arm strength, velocity, transition in terms of being a successor to a HOF QB etc. Just head over to the draft section. There are some who are in favor of taking RG3 over Luck granted the arguments dont carry a lot of weight (mobile, arm strength etc.).

To answer the 2nd part, there is a very low percentage that Luck will become a bust based on his skillset and the tools he has. He has next to no flaws with the exception of his arm strength (which is still REALLY good but not elite like his other skills) and his velocity (Good but not elite).

A lesser QB is more likely going to have more flaws such as not having run a pro style offense, arm strength, accuracy, size, intelligence, dedication etc. Those quarterbacks are usually in the lower rounds for a reason. That is not to say they can't become great QBs (see Brady), but the odds are against them. A lot of the top overall quarterbacks have gone on to have solid to amazing careers. On top of all of those, Luck is regarded as one of the best prospects ever. In the same category as Elway and Manning.

[JoKeR]

Some of those talking heads have a very punchable face. Jmo

[geinsteder]

I just cannot believe how a year changes so much for a team.

Granted I do not live in Indy but I cant imagine having such a player mean so much to one team and city as Peyton Manning is to Indianapolis and the Colts.

Its very sad listening every day on what is going on up there.

He is the reason I started watching football with my husband. I have enjoyed every game I have watched either in person or on TV- whether win or lose.

I fell in love with your city when we visited and if it wasnt for him-it would of never happened.

I fear for you what has happened to us down here in south fla- A stadium that changes names every year, a new coach every other, part owners with whoever puts up the largest sum and/or can sing, a half empty stadium and a team of misfits.

It didnt have to be that way and its a darn shame one of the greatest football players ever may have played his last game as a colt.

Just my opinion from afar.

[SLILLINGTON10]

the answer to all your questions is to win, regardless of QB. If PM comes back at lets say 80% with a vamped up D and wins a superbowl next year, all these message boards will just be something to look back on and laugh. same as if Luck wins a a superbowl in the next couple of years everyone will say "i told you so"

[gacker65]

There are many negative things being said about Luck but the problem is most of them are along the line of "he will be a bust" "he will be unproven" which really isn't an argument in itself. Anyone can flop coming into the NFL. Anyone can become a super star.

Some actual negative things being said about Luck that are debated and hold some ground are his arm strength, velocity, transition in terms of being a successor to a HOF QB etc. Just head over to the draft section. There are some who are in favor of taking RG3 over Luck granted the arguments dont carry a lot of weight (mobile, arm strength etc.).

To answer the 2nd part, there is a very low percentage that Luck will become a bust based on his skillset and the tools he has. He has next to no flaws with the exception of his arm strength (which is still REALLY good but not elite like his other skills) and his velocity (Good but not elite).

A lesser QB is more likely going to have more flaws such as not having run a pro style offense, arm strength, accuracy, size, intelligence, dedication etc. Those quarterbacks are usually in the lower rounds for a reason. That is not to say they can't become great QBs (see Brady), but the odds are against them. A lot of the top overall quarterbacks have gone on to have solid to amazing careers. On top of all of those, Luck is regarded as one of the best prospects ever. In the same category as Elway and Manning.

Not talking about being a bust or not , I am talking about Luck's game/skill set. There is questions about Luck's abilities and IQ coming from his game play. I have pointed this out in other threads, but get flamed. I am not against Luck, but do have concerns about his abilities from watching him play and the analysis coming out based on his game films.

[Warhorse]

To answer every one of your questions, although important, is to incite repetition in an already cluttered "Peyton Go/Stay" manifesto. I can sum it all up in a vague opinion regarding human nature.

It takes intestinal fortitude, guts, spine, grit, or whatever else you want to call it.....to stand up for the guy who is down. It means risking YOUR reputation. If you say PM is coming back you may end up looking like the fool. People are willing to look like the fool in the short run, because odds are, that the Colts will rise again in the longer run(through A. Luck in some fans eyes). In addition, people want things neat and clean. Standing up for PM right now means getting dirty. It means argueing and fighting for what you think is right. The Luck pick is so much more clean. Why not.....after all.....he is young....and healthy....and extreeeeeeeeeemly promising.

Neat...........and............tidy.

Like I have posted on many times, PM will be a dangerous QB in the NFL again. I sure hope to Hades that he is wearing a Colt uni when he is.

[doogansquest]

Why is no one is allowed to be positive, or pro-Manning anymore? To even hint at anything positive towards the greatest player to don a horseshoe brings a slew of flames to that poster. Even comments not directed at anyone, not anti-Luck or anti-Irsay, just won't be tolerated around here for some reason. Why is that?

Well, first off, I would argue that isn't the case at all. In fact I'd argue it's become largely the exact opposite. Everytime I see someone post anything other than rainbows and butterflies regarding keeping Manning that person gets accused of hating the colts and being just so in love with Andrew Luck they want Manning out.

Which is nonsense. What I'm seeing alot of is people searching high and low for anything they can point to as proof whatever supports their opinion on the matter is, regardless of how relevent.

Take the Adam V thread. Lets be honest, Adam saying manning looks good really doesn't mean much. But some people took that as gospel that the matter was settled when it was anything but that. When it got pointed out, one of the most reasonable and level headed posters on this site was all but run out on a rail because of it.

That crap has got to stop. But to be honest, I'm really fed up with getting accused and seeing other accused of hating manning or being Jason LaConfora's BFF and blinding listening to him just because I take the stance that the issue around Manning's health isn't resolved.

There are serious ramifications to picking up the option bonus on a less than healthy Manning. I don't think pointing that out means I hate the team or am in anyway ungrateful for what Manning has meant to this franchise. I've tried reasoning with people on that and largely gotten nowhere. Now I've decided if I'm going to be accused of it I'm just going to run with it and use the power of sarcastic hyperbole to make my point about just how ludicris some of these claims being made by the Manning brigade are.

I want what's best for the Colts. In most situations that involved Manning at the QB but if that becomes what's NOT best for the Colts...

Well, seeing as how I traversed many of the threads before formulating these questions, I can tell you that you are incorrect in your disagreement. The pro-Manning crowd is largely more neutral in their responses, borderline timid even, as they get flamed far more often, and there are way more 'get rid of Manning/it's best to move on' posts than to the contrary.

Furthermore, you didn't even make it through a simple answer without resorting to name-calling, so isn't that hypocrasy at it's finest/worst?

"But some people took that as gospel..." No one took it as gospel. People were just excited to see some positive news, but were absolutely salt-blasted for enjoying it. Same with the interview, Irsay's latest tweets, the doctor's clearance, etc. Any positive news has been responded to in less than 30 seconds with a poster screaming, "...this doesn't mean anything." Meanwhile, ESPN throwing out a random comment from some know-nothing, later proven false of course, and more than 50% of the posters here were basically lining up for Manning's funeral procession.

"I'm really fed up with getting accused and seeing other accused of hating manning or being Jason LaConfora's BFF and blinding listening to him..." That Jason LaConforna bit is irrelevant. As to Manning-hate: I don't think anyone here hates Manning, but when it became clear that the Colts were in the driver's seat for Luck, suddenly the option of coexisting disappeared. A whole slew of new members started arriving, and it's been far more anti-Manning than anything else. They control most of the threads around here, and are BY FAR the loudest bunch. Not hate, just quick to be in opposition.

"Everytime I see someone post anything other than rainbows and butterflies regarding keeping Manning that person gets accused of hating the colts and being just so in love with Andrew Luck they want Manning out." I can't say I believe you are partaking in anything but selective reading then, because those instances (and people) are in the VERY slim minority right now. Again, these questions were, more or less, an FAQ, not a laundry list of my opinions.

"I don't think pointing that out means I hate the team.." I don't think you hate the team, but no one is pointing out the ramifications of picking up a healthy Manning. They have all just assumed he won't be healthy. He was just cleared to PLAY. Not practice, not throw a little or go for a walk; play. Like, real football games with contact. While this doesn't mean we know where his nerve is, there actually isn't a set time table for that, and really only the guys watching Manning do his thing will know this. Even without that information, this was a swing in the direction of "likely to return" more than anything we've seen go the other direction - where there's been only speculation. Why isn't in reasonable then to assume he's going to be fine? If it's reasonable to assume he won't, and nerve regeneration is a 50/50 thing, combined with the good news from doctors...

"I've tried reasoning with people on that and largely gotten nowhere." Can't say I agree with you there. I see less reasoning than...yelling or putting down.

"Now I've decided if I'm going to be accused of it I'm just going to run with it and use the power of sarcastic hyperbole to make my point about just how ludicris some of these claims being made by the Manning brigade are." So it's okay to insult those people and call them names? The Manning brigade, obviously spoken with a tone of contempt. Ludicrous claims? Like, any less ludicrous than the people who called time-of-death a few weeks ago? Or the ones who have been wrong every single step of the way?

I'm not trying to pick on you, hate you, or accuse you of being some wrong kind of fan. I just feel as though your finger is a long way from the pulse of what's going on here.

To answer every one of your questions, although important, is to incite repetition in an already cluttered "Peyton Go/Stay" manifesto. I can sum it all up in a vague opinion regarding human nature.

It takes intestinal fortitude, guts, spine, grit, or whatever else you want to call it.....to stand up for the guy who is down. It means risking YOUR reputation. If you say PM is coming back you may end up looking like the fool. People are willing to look like the fool in the short run, because odds are, that the Colts will rise again in the longer run(through A. Luck in some fans eyes). In addition, people want things neat and clean. Standing up for PM right now means getting dirty. It means argueing and fighting for what you think is right. The Luck pick is so much more clean. Why not.....after all.....he is young....and healthy....and extreeeeeeeeeemly promising.

Neat...........and............tidy.

Like I have posted on many times, PM will be a dangerous QB in the NFL again. I sure hope to Hades that he is wearing a Colt uni when he is.

Why can't both be possible? That's where most people stood before they heard anything about Manning progressing, or a new coaching staff that could give him a lot of help. It's not really neat and tidy to just axe a guy who wins for the hope that a college kid will get us back there. If he's healthy, Manning is the best option for now. That doesn't mean that both can't be achieved. Irsay, Polian, and Manning have all claimed it to be possible. They know more than we do, surely?

I'll try them... attempting to be open minded but adding my own opinions

Why are people saying that we have to move on from Peyton even if he's healthy

I think the main viewpoint here is that if we're rebuilding we might as well rebuild the whole thing? I personally don't agree - if he wasn't injured at all nobody would have ever suggested to move on, so if he comes back completely healthy why is it suddenly time to drop him?!

Is winning now not as important as 6 or 7 years from now? Why does the timeframe matter?

The idea is that Luck has a longer timespan left so if he ends up being as good as his current potential suggests, he'll win more?

Why is dumping Manning universally accepted as the best thing for the franchise?

Beats me.

When would it ever be optimal for the franchise to let the best player in football go when he can still win for you as you build the next gen team?

I think the only thing making it seem a good idea is if we're really, really confident Luck is just like Manning but younger. Frankly though, I don't know. Rebuilding shouldn't mean weakening, and losing Peyton Manning makes you weaker whoever you are.

Why can't he and Luck coexist now that it looks as though he's getting better?

I have no idea why it's so accepted that they can't. I've seen it said several times it's impossible - why? Manning has said he can coexist with anybody and Luck has said he'd embrace the chance to learn from Peyton?

Just a few weeks ago, when everyone stated Peyton may be done forever, the idea of having Luck and Manning was a fine prospect to many. Why did that go away? The $28 million thing was well-known by that point, so nothing changed, only now Manning's health has improved. Why the change of heart?

Nope, no idea why the change of heart. No answer to this!

Why is no one is allowed to be positive, or pro-Manning anymore? To even hint at anything positive towards the greatest player to don a horseshoe brings a slew of flames to that poster. Even comments not directed at anyone, not anti-Luck or anti-Irsay, just won't be tolerated around here for some reason. Why is that?

It's a passionate time and a lot of people get carried away - you and I both know that!

Did the idea of a healthy Manning and Luck on the same team suddenly become a bad one? It was an idea endorsed by the vast majority only a few weeks ago, and now we have positive news regarding Manning's health, a new system and coaching staff to implement, and the potential to win now AND going forward. Why did it become a "bad" idea?

It's always been a bad idea to some, like I said earlier I don't know why.

If this were one of those "Yahoo!" answers pages, we have the best answers... Well said!

[The Fish]

I'll answer all of the questions correctly and quickly.

Currently he can't grip the ball consistently, throw with consistent volocity, and he looses feeling in his arm, per a team doctor. His job is to throw the ball with 100% percent of his ability, if it's not there, it's not worth 28 mill and skipping on Luck.

If you don't agree, tell Irsay.

[presto123]

I'll answer all of the questions correctly and quickly.

Currently he can't grip the ball consistently, throw with consistent volocity, and he looses feeling in his arm, per a team doctor. His job is to throw the ball with 100% percent of his ability, if it's not there, it's not worth 28 mill and skipping on Luck.

If you don't agree, tell Irsay.

Where did you hear that? I've heard the same thing but it was from an NFL reporter and people automatically discount that. If there is any truth to it though Peyton knows he doesn't have ANY bargaining chips. I think he realizes deep down but doesn't want to admit that the show may be over. I don't think Irsay is trying to force him to retire. I think Irsay knows it's a long shot right now. I'm sure Irsay knows a lot more about where Peyton's arm is right now than anybody on this message board.

[UndecidedFrog]

Where did you hear that? I've heard the same thing but it was from an NFL reporter and people automatically discount that. If there is any truth to it though Peyton knows he doesn't have ANY bargaining chips. I think he realizes deep down but doesn't want to admit that the show may be over. I don't think Irsay is trying to force him to retire. I think Irsay knows it's a long shot right now. I'm sure Irsay knows a lot more about where Peyton's arm is right now than anybody on this message board.

If this is true, it will become apparent to the trainers and coaches Mr. Irsay employs to provide him with information on PM's rehab progress.

If the proper communications are made, the decision will be easier to make.

However, what is not known is how far PM may progress as he continues to rehab. What will become critical is time, given the option bonus is due March 8.

I advise watching and waiting as the truth unfolds like a blossom.

Unlike a blossom, the truth is not so fragile that it cannot be tested, or questioned.

[presto123]

If this is true, it will become apparent to the trainers and coaches Mr. Irsay employs to provide him with information on PM's rehab progress.

If the proper communications are made, the decision will be easier to make.

However, what is not known is how far PM may progress as he continues to rehab. What will become critical is time, given the option bonus is due March 8.

I advise watching and waiting as the truth unfolds.

That's why I'm not sure why Peyton would want a decision right now? I doubt that he's even close right now so how can he expect Irsay to go all in at this particular moment.

[UndecidedFrog]

That's why I'm not sure why Peyton would want a decision right now? I doubt that he's even close right now so how can he expect Irsay to go all in at this particular moment.

I don't know. You can speculate on many possible reasons:

1) to force a decision early, would give more time to find a new team willing to hire him.

2) to force a decision early, would provide less of a risk that his rehab progress plateaus, if it has not already.

3) to force a decision early, would somehow change the Colts ability to draft a highly-rated potential replacement. (I don't see this is reasonable, but then, I have seen many things said and thought of that are unreasonable).

4) other reasons I am too tired to think of at this moment.

[The Fish]

Peyton is all business now.

I've found the quote about Mannings condition on pft, CNN, fox, and bleacher report.. Only BR say "team doctors". Lol at that, take it for what it's worth.

I will say that those symptoms are spot on for nerve problems though, and I'd glady surmise thats a part of the statement that Irsay didn't make.

[mmcrazylikeafox]

My guess is that it is the inaccurate propaganda by the media who wants to create a storyline and thats it. So they talk about it every day, ignore what Manning and Irsay are saying and insist that Manning wont play for the Colts. Its funny though, because they talk about other teams he could play on...uuhh I thought he wasnt going to be healthy Locanfora? Now your talking about him playing on Arizona? What part about the "If he is healthy he plays" confuses you? Im sure we could all collect our heads and help you spell out the words.

I must say I have never been so annoyed at a talking head. I understand he is doing his job, but c'mon now Locanfool your setting yourself up to look like an dipstick...But perhaps it will be worth it, wipe that darn smirk off his face whenever he talks about Manning being injured.

I agree with your post 100%! Don't fall for the media hype especially when they say; their "sources" say, or PM or Mr. Irsay could not be reached... We are all Colts fans and want what is best for our team!

[JTcardscolts]

It's the media and the agenda they want to push....I kno it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but they don't want the biggest star in a small market like Indy, could you imagine how much news could be created if Peyton and Eli were in the same city together, if Peyton is released he won't be going to a small market franchise, and you better believe the NFL and the comish knows about it, that's what makes me wonder about that dinner last night with the 3 of them and now the media has almost completely dropped the subject...I hope Peyton and Irsay didn't give up....

The fact is the media wants something to talk about and Peyton being a colt for life isn't it.

JMO

[John Dee]

DISCLAIMER: I do not endorse the questions as my own, nor will I side with any opinion in this thread. I am merely posting questions with regards to some of the more frequent, and dividing comments we've seen recently on our beloved boards. I also only want to see people's personal opinions, not some made up conclusion drawn about the things spoken by the media, which are no more than speculative, or the idea that Mr. Irsay and Mr. Manning are at odds!!! Please feel free to answer one, or all of the questions. Discuss!

Why are people saying that we have to move on from Peyton even if he's healthy?

Is winning now not as important as 6 or 7 years from now? Why does the timeframe matter?

Why is dumping Manning universally accepted as the best thing for the franchise?

When would it ever be optimal for the franchise to let the best player in football go when he can still win for you as you build the next gen team?

Why can't he and Luck coexist now that it looks as though he's getting better?

Just a few weeks ago, when everyone stated Peyton may be done forever, the idea of having Luck and Manning was a fine prospect to many. Why did that go away? The $28 million thing was well-known by that point, so nothing changed, only now Manning's health has improved. Why the change of heart?

Why is no one is allowed to be positive, or pro-Manning anymore? To even hint at anything positive towards the greatest player to don a horseshoe brings a slew of flames to that poster. Even comments not directed at anyone, not anti-Luck or anti-Irsay, just won't be tolerated around here for some reason. Why is that?

Did the idea of a healthy Manning and Luck on the same team suddenly become a bad one? It was an idea endorsed by the vast majority only a few weeks ago, and now we have positive news regarding Manning's health, a new system and coaching staff to implement, and the potential to win now AND going forward. Why did it become a "bad" idea?

That is all for now. If I think of more, I will add them.

Bro this is a message board not the place you upload your college dissertation.

Good Lord Doog this is football not the coming of the AntiChrist... Relax and take what is given to "US" as a fanbase.

wow.........I'm not reading and answering all that just because primarily... I'm too lazy.

[Tony Sullivan]

DISCLAIMER: I do not endorse the questions as my own, nor will I side with any opinion in this thread. I am merely posting questions with regards to some of the more frequent, and dividing comments we've seen recently on our beloved boards. I also only want to see people's personal opinions, not some made up conclusion drawn about the things spoken by the media, which are no more than speculative, or the idea that Mr. Irsay and Mr. Manning are at odds!!! Please feel free to answer one, or all of the questions. Discuss!

Why are people saying that we have to move on from Peyton even if he's healthy?

i dont agrew with these people, but i suppose they believe Luck is too good to pass up and Mannings money would be better spent on other players.

Is winning now not as important as 6 or 7 years from now? Why does the timeframe matter?

we should be trying to win every year.

Why is dumping Manning universally accepted as the best thing for the franchise?

its not

When would it ever be optimal for the franchise to let the best player in football go when he can still win for you as you build the next gen team?

im starting to see a pattern to these questions.

Why can't he and Luck coexist now that it looks as though he's getting better?

How much is Luck really going to learn riding the pine behind a guy whose camp hes been to several times, as opposed to sinking his teeth into real NFL defenses.

Just a few weeks ago, when everyone stated Peyton may be done forever, the idea of having Luck and Manning was a fine prospect to many. Why did that go away? The $28 million thing was well-known by that point, so nothing changed, only now Manning's health has improved. Why the change of heart?

youre really just focusing on people who dont agree with you arent you?

Why is no one is allowed to be positive, or pro-Manning anymore? To even hint at anything positive towards the greatest player to don a horseshoe brings a slew of flames to that poster. Even comments not directed at anyone, not anti-Luck or anti-Irsay, just won't be tolerated around here for some reason. Why is that?

lets try to talk football stop with this childish posting.

Did the idea of a healthy Manning and Luck on the same team suddenly become a bad one? It was an idea endorsed by the vast majority only a few weeks ago, and now we have positive news regarding Manning's health, a new system and coaching staff to implement, and the potential to win now AND going forward. Why did it become a "bad" idea?

i dont think opinions have changed as muh as youre making them out to be.

That is all for now. If I think of more, I will add them.

[Jaric]

Well, seeing as how I traversed many of the threads before formulating these questions, I can tell you that you are incorrect in your disagreement. The pro-Manning crowd is largely more neutral in their responses, borderline timid even, as they get flamed far more often, and there are way more 'get rid of Manning/it's best to move on' posts than to the contrary.

Furthermore, you didn't even make it through a simple answer without resorting to name-calling, so isn't that hypocrasy at it's finest/worst?

Where did I resort to name calling? I also reject your use of the term "pro-Manning" considering that most if not all of the people on this forum are "pro-manning." Believing he won't play again, or that the issue isn't resolved, doesn't make one "anti-Manning" which is what you're implying (even if it's not intentional.)

"But some people took that as gospel..." No one took it as gospel. People were just excited to see some positive news, but were absolutely salt-blasted for enjoying it. Same with the interview, Irsay's latest tweets, the doctor's clearance, etc. Any positive news has been responded to in less than 30 seconds with a poster screaming, "...this doesn't mean anything." Meanwhile, ESPN throwing out a random comment from some know-nothing, later proven false of course, and more than 50% of the posters here were basically lining up for Manning's funeral procession.

Well, it doesn't mean anything. Sorry. If pointing out reality has become a bad thing here, perhaps this isn't the forum for me.

As to the funeral procession comment, I must admit I missed that thread so have no idea what you're talking about. I also must have missed the espn comment you're talking about because I don't remember anything coming up that suggested Manning's life was in danger. (I'm not saying it didn't happen or that you're making that up for the record, just that I don't know what you're talking about.

"I'm really fed up with getting accused and seeing other accused of hating manning or being Jason LaConfora's BFF and blinding listening to him..." That Jason LaConforna bit is irrelevant. As to Manning-hate: I don't think anyone here hates Manning, but when it became clear that the Colts were in the driver's seat for Luck, suddenly the option of coexisting disappeared. A whole slew of new members started arriving, and it's been far more anti-Manning than anything else. They control most of the threads around here, and are BY FAR the loudest bunch. Not hate, just quick to be in opposition.

Well, it isn't irrelevent because it demostrates what I'm talking about from the Manning at all costs group. But that's fine we can move on.

As to the coexisting option "disappearing," I think the reason you see less people talk about coexisting has little to do with Luck and more to do with Manning. Specifically his health. I think more people are starting to think he isn't coming back (either to the Colts or to the NFL) and so coexisting becomes less of an option.

"Everytime I see someone post anything other than rainbows and butterflies regarding keeping Manning that person gets accused of hating the colts and being just so in love with Andrew Luck they want Manning out." I can't say I believe you are partaking in anything but selective reading then, because those instances (and people) are in the VERY slim minority right now. Again, these questions were, more or less, an FAQ, not a laundry list of my opinions.

It's possible we're both engaging in selective reading, because that is the impression I get. I take the stance that the health issue is not resolved and that Manning's release is a very real possibility. You seem to be a bit more on the "everything is going to be ok" side. Both of us likely don't experience things the same because our view points differ. For the record, I don't say that as a bad thing or that you're wrong or anything. Only that online our viewpoints largely determine our experience.

"I don't think pointing that out means I hate the team.." I don't think you hate the team, but no one is pointing out the ramifications of picking up a healthy Manning. They have all just assumed he won't be healthy. He was just cleared to PLAY. Not practice, not throw a little or go for a walk; play. Like, real football games with contact. While this doesn't mean we know where his nerve is, there actually isn't a set time table for that, and really only the guys watching Manning do his thing will know this. Even without that information, this was a swing in the direction of "likely to return" more than anything we've seen go the other direction - where there's been only speculation. Why isn't in reasonable then to assume he's going to be fine? If it's reasonable to assume he won't, and nerve regeneration is a 50/50 thing, combined with the good news from doctors...

Well, to be fair, I think most of us know the ramifications of picking up a healthy Manning. We'll likely go 10-6/12-4 and maybe win a playoff game. I think most of the more vocal "the issue isn't resolved yet" group (which I would consider myself a part of) all said that Manning getting cleared to play was a very positive thing. I suppose I might have missed a few posters but that was the impression I got.

"I've tried reasoning with people on that and largely gotten nowhere." Can't say I agree with you there. I see less reasoning than...yelling or putting down.

Well, to be honest you're probably going to see a bit more of that because I'm fed up with having my words twisted or baseless accusations made simply because I'm not waiving pom poms yet.

"Now I've decided if I'm going to be accused of it I'm just going to run with it and use the power of sarcastic hyperbole to make my point about just how ludicris some of these claims being made by the Manning brigade are." So it's okay to insult those people and call them names? The Manning brigade, obviously spoken with a tone of contempt. Ludicrous claims? Like, any less ludicrous than the people who called time-of-death a few weeks ago? Or the ones who have been wrong every single step of the way?

Yeah there is contempt there. There is a fairly vocal (but admittidly small) group who believes that anyone who even considers releasing Manning is an ungrateful hater who should be ashamed of themselves. That's who I'm refering to with the Manning brigade comments. And yes, there have been Ludicris claims being made. Apparently none of what I've said has violated forum rules as the moderators have not taking any action against me, so perhaps thou doth protest too much.

I'm not trying to pick on you, hate you, or accuse you of being some wrong kind of fan. I just feel as though your finger is a long way from the pulse of what's going on here.

You might be right. You also might be doing what most of us are guilty of at some point or another which is to let our opinions cloud how we interpret a situation. I might be as well. As always, reality is likely somewhere in the middle.

[Malakai432]

Where's my Ferrari cake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want an Accura cake, I wanted a *%+% Ferrari cake, it's my super sweet sixteen Halloween bash!!!!

[UndecidedFrog]

You might be right. You also might be doing what most of us are guilty of at some point or another which is to let our opinions cloud how we interpret a situation. I might be as well. As always, reality is likely somewhere in the middle.

And every side is pulling that much harder for their position in an attempt to make sure the middle is over the previous half-way point such that observers who figure the truth is somewhere in the middle, will favor their position.