I Am Still In Favor Of Rebuidling It All....including At Qb

[Portage Coltfans]

What if you are not sold a few rookies from the draft will get this team over the hump even with Peyton if he is at a high level?

I just don't always understand it. This team IMO has been terrible and the cracks started in 2010.

In some ways I feel for Irsay. Bad drafting by Polian over the years and being dinked around by him and his son. Now he has to fix everything and also try to make fans happy at the same time.

I know you have chosen the route of rebuilding without peyton, and maybe in 5 years we will be good again. So with this option we are at square one.

but why don't you think that giving Peyton a chance to come back with a better roster and defense and coaching is worth a shot? If it doesn't then we are back to square one, just a year delayed. I can wait a year longer.

I know its about $$, even so, I can wait 3 years. If it works, we could win 2-3 superbowls!

Edited February 3, 2012 by Portage Coltfans

[Portage Coltfans]

Hey it might happen again. I had nearly 20,000 posts here on the old forums.

I have been posting on other teams forums this year and have gotten some good perspectives on things.

Like the bronco's? I bet their forum is more hostile than any

[Portage Coltfans]

If you read my original post - I have zero problem that this was Peyton's team...all I cared is that our team was winning, winning with poor defense, no running game....doesn't matter ..just winning.

I quoted you, but was just responding in general.

[Malakai432]

Replacing 18 with 12 isn't rebuilding.

If you want to rebuild then you have to overhaul the system and having a top dollar qb(even if it waits 3-4 years to be top dollar), isn't altering the system.

FJC you need to change your name to another issue that will occur. Is that possible?? Perhaps something like, RobLoweGetsJumped or ChrisPolianPoopedhisPants. Hah I kid, I kid...

Ouch the Clippers are getting owned, good thing I'm a Pacers fan.......

[coltsblue1844]

We had plenty of time to install a basic NFL offense, that Collins & Orlvosky would have had a better shot of running. Jim Caldwell & Clyde Christensen failed this team/franchise by having Collins & Painter attempt to run Manning's offense. They should have ditched that as soon as Manning went under the knife again.

you do realize that Polian, Caldwell, Irsay etc thought that Peyton would only miss a few games at most until he had the fusion surgery, right? what did you expect them to do, throw in a new offense for the WRs and QBs and RBs to all learn on the fly during the season? kinda hard to game plan for opponents when you're trying to install a new offense midseason

[Smitto]

Having both Manning and Luck would not be 40% of the cap. ~23M is like around 20% of the cap.

Im guessing you did not read the article, IT IS 40% 35mil for manning... 15mil for Luck

[UndecidedFrog]

Im guessing you did not read the article, IT IS 40% 35mil for manning... 15mil for Luck

For 2012, in real dollars, it is $35.4 (28 option bonus +7.4 salary) for Peyton, and $15.6 (15.2 signing bonus + 0.4 salary) for Luck.

For 2012, in cap dollars, it is $17 (prorated portion of signing bonus (20/5) =4 + pro-rated portion of option bonus (28/5) =5.6 + 7.4 salary) for Peyton,

and $4.2 (pro-rated portion of signing bonus (15.2/4) = 3.8 + 0.4 salary) for Luck.

Please let me know if this isn't clear.

[FireJimCaldwell]

FJC you need to change your name to another issue that will occur. Is that possible?? Perhaps something like, RobLoweGetsJumped or ChrisPolianPoopedhisPants. Hah I kid, I kid...

Ouch the Clippers are getting owned, good thing I'm a Pacers fan.......

Yeah I'm taking a few under consideration. My top 10 list would likely get me banned.

you do realize that Polian, Caldwell, Irsay etc thought that Peyton would only miss a few games at most until he had the fusion surgery, right? what did you expect them to do, throw in a new offense for the WRs and QBs and RBs to all learn on the fly during the season? kinda hard to game plan for opponents when you're trying to install a new offense midseason

Yes, I do realize that, and I'm not talking about some exotic Mike Martz type offense. Just an offense that players ran all their lives, high school, college and professionally. I expected them to put our players in the best possible situation to win and they failed at that. Should it have taken them so long that adjustments needed to be made because Painter didn't have the skill set to run it? It might even take input from the players, on how they can combine concepts and terminology to help keep it simple. It's not like we asked them to decipher Irsay tweets. Just run a simple I based system. A little PAP here and there. Far better than what we witnessed.

For 2012, in real dollars, it is $35.4 (28 option bonus +7.4 salary) for Peyton, and $15.6 (15.2 signing bonus + 0.4 salary) for Luck.

For 2012, in cap dollars, it is $17 (prorated portion of signing bonus (20/5) =4 + pro-rated portion of option bonus (28/5) =5.6 + 7.4 salary) for Peyton,

and $4.2 (pro-rated portion of signing bonus (15.2/4) = 3.8 + 0.4 salary) for Luck.

Please let me know if this isn't clear.

Some won't get it if you tattoo it on their forehead.

[coltsblue1844]

Some won't get it if you tattoo it on their forehead.

my point is, now that Arians is the OC, why do you think he WONT implement the same offense that he's used everywhere else he's been the OC? If it's easy enough to learn that Roethlisberger can pick it up in a non existant offseason, i have faith that any QB that we have starting next season can do the same.

[JonnyU]

From a business standpoint it makes more sense to let Peyton go, but from a die hard fans point of view you want to see your iconic QB take every snap with your Colts. Were the Niners fans happy to watch Joe Montana in a KC chiefs uni, or the Packers fans watch Farve on 'Gang green" or sporting purple and gold? No! The sentimental fan in me does not want to see manning go anywhere else but Luck seems to be the wave of the future, we have to recognize this gift that has fallen in our franchises lap (Peyton's injury = opportunity to draft Luck) example of turning Lemons into lemonade.

[John Dee]

Years of poor drafting and mismanagemet have caused this mess to happen. In 2010 we saw it start to fall apart with nearly losing the divison to the Jaguars. Lack of depth everywhere with injuries.

This past season showed just how bad things have gotten everywhere. There was also again, little depth and most importantly at QB.

With Irsay firing just about everyone it became clear to me (or so I thought) this team was rebuilding.

If you are starting over why do you have Manning? It makes little sense to me. I don't see this as being a SB caliber team anytime soon. Not with a rookie HC. And not with Houston in this division. Be honest with yourselves. Houston even without Schaub was a contender. That is scary. Add in Schaub and they are a top 5 team in just about every statistical category.

You bring back Peyton and not only is it going to be difficult to win a title it's going to be tough to even make the playoffs IMO.

This team has been the Peyton's for years. Personally, I want to see a team again.

This does not mean I don't love and appreciate all Manning has done and hope he has a healthy future. It means I care deeply about the future of this organization as well and I don't think it helps the team or Manning to have them co-exist right now. I really don't.

If this rubs some the wrong way I am sorry.

I had to get this off my chest.

Lastly, there is no reason for the Manning camp to release information this week or to do interviews. It is taking away attention from the two QBs in the SB who deserve the spotlight.

Fear not my child.. or young lady...

Irsay is no dummy, he IS laying he groundwork for the "biggest" FA release in NFL history....

BUT... lets then see who is SO eager to pick up Manning and PAY him what he "demaands"... and it will be huge in a "bidding war"...

And as Andrew Brandt stated tonight on ESPN radio... "the NFL has the benefit of time regarding Peyton Manning, the Colts DO NOT"

True...

[Jules]

From a business standpoint it makes more sense to let Peyton go, but from a die hard fans point of view you want to see your iconic QB take every snap with your Colts. Were the Niners fans happy to watch Joe Montana in a KC chiefs uni, or the Packers fans watch Farve on 'Gang green" or sporting purple and gold? No! The sentimental fan in me does not want to see manning go anywhere else but Luck seems to be the wave of the future, we have to recognize this gift that has fallen in our franchises lap (Peyton's injury = opportunity to draft Luck) example of turning Lemons into lemonade.

I 100% agree. Well said.

My mind and heart have been going back and forth on this since week 1 last year actually.

I just hope the fanbase can deal with it if/when Peyton and the Colts part ways and if it indeed happens.

Still not sure I like the idea of both QBs. Not sure you spend the first pick in the draft on a QB if he is going to sit on the bench for 2+ years if you feel Peyton is going to last that long.

I understand. The Colts fanbase loves Manning to pieces. But, after this past season I feel the best thing to do is move on even if it hurts. I don't need people to agree with me either. I had to speak my mind though and get it out there.

[John Dee]

March 8ths is set in stone... for Indy... If Manning gives no relief to the Colts regarding this "deadline" don't hate on the Team.

[presto123]

From a business standpoint it makes more sense to let Peyton go, but from a die hard fans point of view you want to see your iconic QB take every snap with your Colts. Were the Niners fans happy to watch Joe Montana in a KC chiefs uni, or the Packers fans watch Farve on 'Gang green" or sporting purple and gold? No! The sentimental fan in me does not want to see manning go anywhere else but Luck seems to be the wave of the future, we have to recognize this gift that has fallen in our franchises lap (Peyton's injury = opportunity to draft Luck) example of turning Lemons into lemonade.

Great post from a new member. I can see arguments both ways as well but you are right I think Irsay will look at this from a business perspective.

[Jules]

Fear not my child.. or young lady...

Irsay is no dummy, he IS laying he groundwork for the "biggest" FA release in NFL history....

BUT... lets then see who is SO eager to pick up Manning and PAY him what he "demaands"... and it will be huge in a "bidding war"...

And as Andrew Brandt stated tonight on ESPN radio... "the NFL has the benefit of time regarding Peyton Manning, the Colts DO NOT"

True...

Gonna be amazing to watch in many ways.

I also will remember and cherish the memories of Peyton when and if he is released. I think he is going to be released though....been a hunch for a while. Could be wrong but the signs are there....just like when you have to break up with a long time lover and the time has come.

I don't want people to think I dislike Peyton. I have rooted for him so hard at times I have lost my voice for days.

But, I sense our time is changing since Jim Caldwell called that time out against the Jets. If it isn't changing then I hope our destiny is not meddled with.

[presto123]

I 100% agree. Well said.

My mind and heart have been going back and forth on this since week 1 last year actually.

I just hope the fanbase can deal with it if/when Peyton and the Colts part ways and if it indeed happens.

Still not sure I like the idea of both QBs. Not sure you spend the first pick in the draft on a QB if he is going to sit on the bench for 2+ years if you feel Peyton is going to last that long.

I understand. The Colts fanbase loves Manning to pieces. But, after this past season I feel the best thing to do is move on even if it hurts. I don't need people to agree with me either. I had to speak my mind though and get it out there.

I still think Manning will be forced to retire. I know it's not popular to say that but I don't think the nerve and arm strength will ever get back totally to 100% and Peyton won't take the field at anything less.

[John Dee]

Great post from a new member. I can see arguments both ways as well but you are right I think Irsay will look at this from a business perspective.

Bottom line here is ... Can Manning rework his contract and bonus deadline? If yes, and HE want's to be a Colt....

Then getter done.

But I have a feeling.. lines that have been drawn in the sand will stay there.

[John Dee]

I still think Manning will be forced to retire. I know it's not popular to say that but I don't think the nerve and arm strength will ever get back totally to 100% and Peyton won't take the field at anything less.

Manning's doctors cleared him for "full football activity" ... TODAY..

Manning's doc's tho...

[presto123]

Manning's doctors cleared him for "full football activity" ... TODAY..

Manning's doc's tho...

They cleared him from a safety standpoint not a performance standpoint. The nerve still has a ways to go from everything I've heard. I'm sure something will come out soon where he's at considering he worked out with Colts receivers this week.

[John Dee]

They cleared him from a safety standpoint not a performance standpoint. The nerve still has a ways to go from everything I've heard. I'm sure something will come out soon where he's at considering he worked out with Colts receivers this week.

not playing ping pong here but ESPN radio said Manning was "cleared for ALL FOOTBALL" related activities..

What this includes under the CBA?

Who knows.. Crazy scene...

[presto123]

not playing ping pong here but ESPN radio said Manning was "cleared for ALL FOOTBALL" related activities..

What this includes under the CBA?

Who knows.. Crazy scene...

Here's a tweet from John Clayton sometime today after the Peyton announcement. Clayton is an ESPN guy and pretty stand up in my opinion:

While Peyton Manning remains optimistic about his return, people in the Colts org. aren't as certain because of nerve in neck and triceps

[John Dee]

Here's a tweet from John Clayton sometime today after the Peyton announcement. Clayton is an ESPN guy and pretty stand up in my opinion:

While Peyton Manning remains optimistic about his return, people in the Colts org. aren't as certain because of nerve in neck and triceps

Right.. now we are "doctor fighting" ... I mean seriously...

I truly expect Manning to be a FA by this time next week.

[Smitto]

You are confusing real dollars with cap dollars. They are not the same.

Peyton's current contract:

2011 Real dollars = 26.4 Cap dollars = 16

2012 Real dollars = 35.4 Cap dollars = 17

2013 Real dollars = 8.4 Cap dollars = 18

2014 Real dollars = 9.4 Cap dollars = 19

2015 Real dollars = 10.4 Cap dollars = 20

Totals: Real dollars = 90 Cap dollars = 90

Yea im not gonna keep repeating the same thing ive said, you can believe it or not...

"That would mean that the Colts, who have plenty of voids to fill on both offense and defense, would be committing well over 40 percent of their funds for 2012 to two guys that play the same position and can never be on the field together."

That was from the link you quoted from me

[FireJimCaldwell]

Yea im not gonna keep repeating the same thing ive said, you can believe it or not...

"That would mean that the Colts, who have plenty of voids to fill on both offense and defense, would be committing well over 40 percent of their funds for 2012 to two guys that play the same position and can never be on the field together."

That was from the link you quoted from me

Brad Gagnon was wrong.

[JColts72]

I would cut Manning after the Super Bowl. What a Queen this week with all about Manning. The colts did plenty for him with signing offense weapons over the years and causing the d to sink by not putting money into that phase. Not gonna to take a 28 Mil. gamble to bury the team are we?

[Blue Horseshoe]

I would cut Manning after the Super Bowl. What a Queen this week with all about Manning. The colts did plenty for him with signing offense weapons over the years and causing the d to sink by not putting money into that phase. Not gonna to take a 28 Mil. gamble to bury the team are we?

How much will the coming savior cost?

[Balzer40]

I know you have chosen the route of rebuilding without peyton, and maybe in 5 years we will be good again. So with this option we are at square one.

but why don't you think that giving Peyton a chance to come back with a better roster and defense and coaching is worth a shot? If it doesn't then we are back to square one, just a year delayed. I can wait a year longer.

I know its about $$, even so, I can wait 3 years. If it works, we could win 2-3 superbowls!

Irsay don't care if you, me, or anybody else can wait. He's gonna do what he thinks is best for HIS franchise.

Why do people keep saying we could win 2- or 3 more superbowls if Manning plays another 3 yrs.? Manning has been here for 14 yrs. and we have 1 superbowl win.

[Blue Horseshoe]

Irsay don't care if you, me, or anybody else can wait. He's gonna do what he thinks is best for HIS franchise.

Why do people keep saying we could win 2- or 3 more superbowls if Manning plays another 3 yrs.? Manning has been here for 14 yrs. and we have 1 superbowl win.

Because of mediocre coaching and bad defense. Maybe now these deficiencies can be finally dealt with since Polian is gone.

[Smitto]

Brad Gagnon was wrong.

So basically what your saying is peytons not getting paid 35 mil this year?

[Portage Coltfans]

Irsay don't care if you, me, or anybody else can wait. He's gonna do what he thinks is best for HIS franchise.

Why do people keep saying we could win 2- or 3 more superbowls if Manning plays another 3 yrs.? Manning has been here for 14 yrs. and we have 1 superbowl win.

why not? Thats the better question

[Superman]

So basically what your saying is peytons not getting paid 35 mil this year?

It doesn't matter what he's getting paid. What matters is the cap hit, and it's not $35 million.

[Restored]

It doesn't matter what he's getting paid. What matters is the cap hit, and it's not $35 million.

This is what matters.

And as far as Irsay's rebuttle to Peyton's news yesterday. If Irsay and the Colts cleared peyton, he couldn't use the facility to rehab. Smart move by Irsay.

[Jazz69]

The Fleecing of the Colts Fans by Payton Manning:

As A fan of the Colts; I pay for the team to be able to operate. I buy the tickets, I buy the jerseys and other things liked signed footballs. I plan my families vacations so we as a family can cheer on our hero’s and it takes my life’s saving every year to make this happen.

This is why I feel Payton Manning is doing nothing but stealing from us when he signed his last contract, Knowing full well he wasn’t going to play, and still don’t know if he will be playing next year, and if so, at best will be a rookie season all over again.

Payton should be ashamed of himself for demanding payment of 28 million dollars for a bench-warmer full of what-if’s. That’s my families money don’t you think?

If the Colts can afford to pay Washed-up Garry Collins 4 million to get his butt kicked for 3 games, I am sure they would be willing to pay our bench warmer the same for a chance for both side to be proved worthy next season.

Hey Payton we want our money back, You get paid to play, so you don’t collect multi-millions until you are able to EARN THEM!!!

What happens if we pay the 28million and Payton is still worthless? We the fans LOSE while we regroup with our first round draft pick we so earned this season.

I just hope it is for Payton’s replacement after a refund from him, and the Colts learned a valuable lesson. “Never Give Your QB Every Snap in Practice”. A team must have a back-up QB that has some Gel Time with the team to be able to help the team. In all honesty Painter would have been a great Colts QB if he knew what to do with a team; or more to the point if the team knew how to play with him… Football is still a TEAM sport isn’t it?

[Portage Coltfans]

The Fleecing of the Colts Fans by Payton Manning:

As A fan of the Colts; I pay for the team to be able to operate. I buy the tickets, I buy the jerseys and other things liked signed footballs. I plan my families vacations so we as a family can cheer on our hero’s and it takes my life’s saving every year to make this happen.

This is why I feel Payton Manning is doing nothing but stealing from us when he signed his last contract, Knowing full well he wasn’t going to play, and still don’t know if he will be playing next year, and if so, at best will be a rookie season all over again.

Payton should be ashamed of himself for demanding payment of 28 million dollars for a bench-warmer full of what-if’s. That’s my families money don’t you think?

If the Colts can afford to pay Washed-up Garry Collins 4 million to get his butt kicked for 3 games, I am sure they would be willing to pay our bench warmer the same for a chance for both side to be proved worthy next season.

Hey Payton we want our money back, You get paid to play, so you don’t collect multi-millions until you are able to EARN THEM!!!

What happens if we pay the 28million and Payton is still worthless? We the fans LOSE while we regroup with our first round draft pick we so earned this season.

I just hope it is for Payton’s replacement after a refund from him, and the Colts learned a valuable lesson. “Never Give Your QB Every Snap in Practice”. A team must have a back-up QB that has some Gel Time with the team to be able to help the team. In all honesty Painter would have been a great Colts QB if he knew what to do with a team; or more to the point if the team knew how to play with him… Football is still a TEAM sport isn’t it?

are you going to copy and post this epic fail post in every thread?

[Superman]

Between Peyton's comments about not liking the changes, between the ESPN interview that came directly after media day for the SB teams and between today this is tacky.

This is Favre stuff IMO.

The Colts might have a had a horrible season. The Colts might hate it that the Pats of all teams are here. Heck for all we know Peyton's ego might have taken a dive with his baby brother and arch rival in the big one and all the Luck talk.

All I know is I don't like the attitude. Lay low the few weeks before the SB and be a gracious host.

This is all unsettling to me.

What if you are not sold a few rookies from the draft will get this team over the hump even with Peyton if he is at a high level?

I just don't always understand it. This team IMO has been terrible and the cracks started in 2010.

In some ways I feel for Irsay. Bad drafting by Polian over the years and being dinked around by him and his son. Now he has to fix everything and also try to make fans happy at the same time.

JMO:

I think you are being very, very dramatic. This is nowhere near Favre stuff. Manning has said from the very beginning that he wants to play and that he wants to be in Indy. He hasn't been swinging the franchise back and forth talking about retiring for the last four years. All this talk about his ego is unfair. Don't you think he would be in the news regardless of his health issues this week? The Super Bowl is in Indy, and his little brother and his biggest rival are in town. Plus, the Colts have a chance to draft Andrew Luck. Add on top of that the upheaval the Colts have gone through over the past month, and it's no wonder he's in the news. I think you're taking it too far when you start blaming him for all the media attention.

As for the team, I've said before, I don't think the Colts are as devoid of talent as they appeared last season. We've got good players all over the field. We had tons of injuries the past two years. That's what the primary difference was from 2009 to 2010. Add to that the failure by our coaching staff to make adjustments for the injuries and for Manning's absence, and you've got a 2-14 season. Sucks, but it's not because the team has no players.

There are still adjustments that need to be made, absolutely. Still need help at certain positions. The secondary is a mess. We need at least one starting guard. We need depth on both lines. And so on. I'm not trying to say that the only problem in 2011 was that Manning was hurt. But I do think it would be a mistake to overreact to a really bad season by gutting the team, especially when it comes to your best and most important player.

[Superman]

This is what matters.

And as far as Irsay's rebuttle to Peyton's news yesterday. If Irsay and the Colts cleared peyton, he couldn't use the facility to rehab. Smart move by Irsay.

I was saying yesterday that just because Manning's doctors say his body is sound doesn't mean he's ready to take the field. The question still remains: Has the nerve repaired itself to the point that he can throw like an NFL quarterback?

I had knee surgery last year. Minor procedure, a meniscus tear. Two weeks later, the doctor said I could start rehab. Six weeks later, the doctor and the therapist said that the knee was structurally sound and that I could resume normal activities. That doesn't mean I was ready to go out and do all the things I had been doing. I still needed to rebuild the muscles in the leg, regain my flexibility, etc. It wasn't until a couple more months went by that I felt like my leg was strong enough that I didn't need to worry about it anymore.

[Restored]

I was saying yesterday that just because Manning's doctors say his body is sound doesn't mean he's ready to take the field. The question still remains: Has the nerve repaired itself to the point that he can throw like an NFL quarterback?

I had knee surgery last year. Minor procedure, a meniscus tear. Two weeks later, the doctor said I could start rehab. Six weeks later, the doctor and the therapist said that the knee was structurally sound and that I could resume normal activities. That doesn't mean I was ready to go out and do all the things I had been doing. I still needed to rebuild the muscles in the leg, regain my flexibility, etc. It wasn't until a couple more months went by that I felt like my leg was strong enough that I didn't need to worry about it anymore.

Right, and from what another source said, it wouldn't be until about may 23rd, the one year anniversary of the 1st surgery I believe. So with that said, I think come in March, we could either see Irsay and Peyton extend the deadline or Peyton be released.

[Superman]

I guess we have a complete disagreement about the offense we've run over the past 13 years, which to me says nothing West Coast Offense or any of it's hybrids.

Yeah everyone has timing routes, and such, but conceptually we are nothing like any of those teams, and Houston has altered it, to take on the talents of Andre Johnson which is something good coaches do. Kubiak's offense is a close replica to what Denver ran for years with Elway and Shanahan, that is where he cut his teeth. The WCO has morphed far from Bill Walsh with the bunch set in Tampa that Gruden had, the way they have added the Shotgun in Green Bay, and the the boot package in Denver/Houston, but they are still built off of the same concepts.

Concepts our offense(Manning's offense) doesn't stem from.

I don't think Andrew Luck sucks by any means but I see him struggling if we simply try to replace Manning with him. If we installed a WCO, similar to what he ran in college, then I think he would be a better player much quicker and we would have a system in place that would allow a back up QB to have a fighting chance.

Collins would have had a far better chance to win running a WCO than he did trying to run our offense.

I don't think we need to get rid of Manning to rebuild either, but I would prefer a change in direction of the offense with him in place, so whoever the back up qb may be can have a better chance than what we had this past year.

We're talking about a bunch of different things. I don't mean to nitpick about what a WCO is or isn't. I believe our offense is predicated on the same principles the WCO is: short passes, timing routes to receivers that aren't necessarily open, not relying on the run to set up deep throws, and so on. I'm talking about the philosophy, and you're talking about specific offenses that have been dubbed WCO.

As it pertains to Manning, Luck, any other backup/replacement quarterback, and the Colts, I'm not suggesting that we keep running things the way we have for so long. Whether you think Manning is the best quarterback in the NFL or not, no one can run this offense the way he has for the past several years. He really took ownership of it around 2003, and spent eight years becoming one with it. I don't care if you put Tom Brady in with this offense -- and Brady is really freaking good -- it doesn't run like it does with Manning. Now that we've had a taste of Manning's football mortality, which we had been shielded from for 13 years, it's obvious even to a blind fool that we need to make sure we have a fighting chance without him. I am not a blind fool; I clearly see that changes have to be made, whether he stays or not.

Aside from that obvious truth, I don't think the failures of Kerry Collins or Curtis Painter are the reasons why changes need to be made. I think they failed because they aren't very good. Collins had his day, but in Tennessee, they protected him from having to carry the offense. He had an offensive line that gave him a lot of time and he didn't have to move around very much to avoid rushers. He threw to receivers that were going to be in a specific spot at a specific time, usually outside the hashes. They had a dominant run game. Same thing when he was a premiere guy in New York. Here, he just wasn't the right fit. I believe that he has the ability to pick up what we do, I just don't think he has the ability to execute. Painter just isn't good.

Add to that the fact that the coaches seemed to think that they could keep throwing 30+ times a game with subpar quarterbacking, and it's no wonder we averaged 15 points a game.

For me, drafting Luck is a no-brainer. And considering the fact that Manning is a year removed from 4500 yards and 31 touchdowns, IF HE'S HEALTHY, keeping him is a no-brainer. He was worth the money last year, and as long as he can throw the ball, he'll be worth the money moving forward.

The idea that because we're "rebuilding" we HAVE to get rid of Manning and run a completely different offense, or else it's not rebuilding, is wild-eyed. He's a great quarterback, assuming health. You would be able to hand it off to a great prospect. It won't hurt Luck to sit behind Manning, get a feel for what a great NFL quarterback does every day to play at a high level, and so on. And even though it's not ideal cap-wise, it's no worse than the top heavy cap we've had for the past decade, while we were winning more games than any other team and in the playoffs every year. Once the cap goes up in two years, it's even less of an issue.

If Irsay says "we can be a good team without Manning if we do this right, and we have a chance to draft Luck, and we can be more flexible cap-wise, and it's going to save us a ton of real money and cap money for the next few years," then I get it. That's not a bad decision to make. That's the decision you make if you feel Manning is just like any other player, he's replaceable, and it's time to play the "this is a business" card and cut ties. I get it.

But if you value Manning for how special he is, what he means to the franchise and what he can do for a team when he's healthy, and you want to milk every last ounce of "top five quarterback of all time" out of him, then you put up with the contract you agreed to just six months ago, you retool in other areas, you STILL draft Luck, and you transition into the next phase of Colts football.

[FireJimCaldwell]

So basically what your saying is peytons not getting paid 35 mil this year?

What I am saying is that Peyton will get paid 35.4 million in cash if the option is picked up which will result in him having a cap hit of 17 million for 2012.

Luck will get about a 15 million signing bonus, which will result in his 2012 cap hit of approximately 4.2 million.

Translation

Actual cash spent about 50 million+

Salary cap totals of the two players approximately 21.2. When you add in the Collins/Painter cap hits and the possibility of a 3rd string UDFA, The cap # of Colts QB's in 2011 approached 22.8 million or in the 18% of the 2012 salary cap.

So the link you are quoting has part of the information accurate, but he interpreting it wrong. Huge difference.

[FireJimCaldwell]

We're talking about a bunch of different things. I don't mean to nitpick about what a WCO is or isn't. I believe our offense is predicated on the same principles the WCO is: short passes, timing routes to receivers that aren't necessarily open, not relying on the run to set up deep throws, and so on. I'm talking about the philosophy, and you're talking about specific offenses that have been dubbed WCO.

As it pertains to Manning, Luck, any other backup/replacement quarterback, and the Colts, I'm not suggesting that we keep running things the way we have for so long. Whether you think Manning is the best quarterback in the NFL or not, no one can run this offense the way he has for the past several years. He really took ownership of it around 2003, and spent eight years becoming one with it. I don't care if you put Tom Brady in with this offense -- and Brady is really freaking good -- it doesn't run like it does with Manning. Now that we've had a taste of Manning's football mortality, which we had been shielded from for 13 years, it's obvious even to a blind fool that we need to make sure we have a fighting chance without him. I am not a blind fool; I clearly see that changes have to be made, whether he stays or not.

Aside from that obvious truth, I don't think the failures of Kerry Collins or Curtis Painter are the reasons why changes need to be made. I think they failed because they aren't very good. Collins had his day, but in Tennessee, they protected him from having to carry the offense. He had an offensive line that gave him a lot of time and he didn't have to move around very much to avoid rushers. He threw to receivers that were going to be in a specific spot at a specific time, usually outside the hashes. They had a dominant run game. Same thing when he was a premiere guy in New York. Here, he just wasn't the right fit. I believe that he has the ability to pick up what we do, I just don't think he has the ability to execute. Painter just isn't good.

Add to that the fact that the coaches seemed to think that they could keep throwing 30+ times a game with subpar quarterbacking, and it's no wonder we averaged 15 points a game.

For me, drafting Luck is a no-brainer. And considering the fact that Manning is a year removed from 4500 yards and 31 touchdowns, IF HE'S HEALTHY, keeping him is a no-brainer. He was worth the money last year, and as long as he can throw the ball, he'll be worth the money moving forward.

The idea that because we're "rebuilding" we HAVE to get rid of Manning and run a completely different offense, or else it's not rebuilding, is wild-eyed. He's a great quarterback, assuming health. You would be able to hand it off to a great prospect. It won't hurt Luck to sit behind Manning, get a feel for what a great NFL quarterback does every day to play at a high level, and so on. And even though it's not ideal cap-wise, it's no worse than the top heavy cap we've had for the past decade, while we were winning more games than any other team and in the playoffs every year. Once the cap goes up in two years, it's even less of an issue.

If Irsay says "we can be a good team without Manning if we do this right, and we have a chance to draft Luck, and we can be more flexible cap-wise, and it's going to save us a ton of real money and cap money for the next few years," then I get it. That's not a bad decision to make. That's the decision you make if you feel Manning is just like any other player, he's replaceable, and it's time to play the "this is a business" card and cut ties. I get it.

But if you value Manning for how special he is, what he means to the franchise and what he can do for a team when he's healthy, and you want to milk every last ounce of "top five quarterback of all time" out of him, then you put up with the contract you agreed to just six months ago, you retool in other areas, you STILL draft Luck, and you transition into the next phase of Colts football.

Again, I don't see it, if anything ours would be a WCO on steroids and by that I mean the throws are longer than the short (dink & dunk) throws that a WCO is based on. The bulk of our offense has been 10-30 yards, while the WCO is 0-15. Our primary one back sets, vs. the WCO primary two back sets.

Passing games in any offense will share some conceptual issues. Similar routes, formations etc, there are limitations, but from of a theory, or what the team is trying to do I still wouldn't call our offense anything to a WCO.

I agree that Brady & Brees, or any other QB would struggle to come in and execute our offense without much time in it. It would take time for them to begin to become adjusted to it.

To me Collins failure was three fold.. (Not enough time to get a good enough grasp of the offense to see the field, the offense itself didn't meet his skill set, and he became injured, he would have progressed the more time he spent in it, but he would have been limited).

Painter was horrible. He had a few bright spots which was partially on outstanding plays by Garcon & Wayne, but I'm surprised he even made the roster.

I don't see keeping both Manning & Luck as a good situation for either player. I don't see it as a good situation for the Colts from a cap perspective when so much money is going to need to be spent on other free agents.

It would be a luxury, and it would come at the cost of other positions being weakened by roster cuts, or the failure to resign some players.