NEW ENGLAND FIRES OL COACH. SCAPE GOAT?

[-JJ-]

9 hours ago, Superman said:

 

It is what it is. I think they want someone who can coach up interior linemen, and weren't satisfied with the guy they had. 

 

I don't have any problem with a coach retooling his staff as he sees fit. We obviously have no idea what the dynamic is, or what the actual expectations are, so I hesitate to say that anyone is being scapegoated. I think Belichick wants a better OL coach, and that makes sense to me.

Agree- there's no such thing as a scapegoat here because what is BB trying to scapegoat. There's no reason to scapegoat to anyone. He simply wants to change coaches.

With 13 different Oline lineups this year (by far the most in the NFL) one would think he did ok. Or not.

[BloodyChamp]

9 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I disagree wholeheartedly with the bolded. Maybe none of them would do anything on another staff, but those guys know their stuff and work hard. I think McDaniels showed some serious flaws as a head coach, but he's obviously a smart offensive guy. 

 

Also, I posted an article here today about how the Texans install the offensive gameplan every week. O'Brien insists that 'Bill lets his coaches coach,' said it more than once in that piece. And he says he's patterned his staff after what they did in New England, where O'Brien worked up from low level assistant to OC. If anyone knows the Pats' modus operandi, it's O'Brien. The Texans' staff is all hands on deck when it comes to putting in the gameplan. I can't imagine Belichick not being the same way.

 

I got the same impression from the "Do Your Job" fluff piece last offseason. I recently watched it for the first time, and it's good stuff, but not nearly as in depth as I expected. Still, all the coaches work hard, from the research director to the coordinators.

How do you not see the link between being successful on Bill's staff and nowhere else...Josh McDaniels is basically a child. Meanwhile I wouldn't put to much stock into what Bill Obrien says works.

[chad72]

2 hours ago, Mrs. Misunderstood said:

here's an interesting stat

Belichick has lost more games to Peyton than any other opposing QB.

Maybe Peyton is in BB's head

 

 

He has played more vs Peyton than anyone else as well, you have to factor that.

 

Belichick hated playing Rod Smith and Elway, and now he officially hates the Broncos.

[chad72]

12 hours ago, bababooey said:

Nevermind the fact that Belichick has drafted exactly two offensive linemen in the first three rounds since '06...

 

First 3 rounds does not really matter to me.

 

Tarik Glenn - 1st rounder

Ryan Lilja - undrafted

Jeff Saturday - undrafted

Jake Scott - 4th rounder

Ryan Diem - 4th rounder

 

The above was our best OL line up in the Peyton Colts era, most of them overachieved where they were drafted or played with a chip because they were undrafted.

 

If Grigson drafts OL and gets the right coaches to develop them, that matters more. Patriots drafted Nate Solder and Sebastian Vollmer in the first 3 rounds but did draft Bryan Stork and Cameron Fleming and Marcus Cannon to develop in the later rounds. That is not the reason their OL is stinking, the OL draft positions. Last year, they were playing well as a unit.

 

This year, when they were using several combinations earlier in the year, people were praising it. I found it odd because that would have not allowed the OL to get enough continuity which would matter with stunts, blitzes etc. for communication when they played better Ds. It started mattering in December and then vs the Broncos as well. So, OL coaching DID matter, IMO.

[bababooey]

8 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

First 3 rounds does not really matter to me.

 

Tarik Glenn - 1st rounder

Ryan Lilja - undrafted

Jeff Saturday - undrafted

Jake Scott - 4th rounder

Ryan Diem - 4th rounder

 

The above was our best OL line up in the Peyton Colts era, most of them overachieved where they were drafted or played with a chip because they were undrafted.

 

If Grigson drafts OL and gets the right coaches to develop them, that matters more. Patriots drafted Nate Solder and Sebastian Vollmer in the first 3 rounds but did draft Bryan Stork and Cameron Fleming and Marcus Cannon to develop in the later rounds. That is not the reason their OL is stinking, the OL draft positions. Last year, they were playing well as a unit.

 

This year, when they were using several combinations earlier in the year, people were praising it. I found it odd because that would have not allowed the OL to get enough continuity which would matter with stunts, blitzes etc. for communication when they played better Ds. It started mattering in December and then vs the Broncos as well. So, OL coaching DID matter, IMO.

Bulsworth could have been great. Third round. Still you can't blame that on the OL when you don't invest high draft picks in it for a LONG time...

[ColtRider]

11 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:

Loving this...so many things happening to protect Brady from any blame. I forgot where I read this earlier, but I read something about the Broncos double teaming Gronk all game, which was why Edelman got all those targets. Then on the PAT the doubled Edelman who Brady had started looking to first even though he wasn't the first option by design.

 

That's a great point, BC. About protecting Brady from blame. I saw McDaniels go over to him several times while on the bench during the game. Keeping his cool, et.al. He probably told him, "Dude, you blow-up? Then you're really gonna be running for your life." Not that he wasn't already, but stuff like that. 

 

 

[bababooey]

11 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:

Loving this...so many things happening to protect Brady from any blame. I forgot where I read this earlier, but I read something about the Broncos double teaming Gronk all game, which was why Edelman got all those targets. Then on the PAT the doubled Edelman who Brady had started looking to first even though he wasn't the first option by design.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tom-brady-couldnt-take-the-pressure/

 

An interesting read on how bad he performed under pressure. Only Rivers and Brees are worse. Denver didn't even blitz often, just have a beast DL.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, BloodyChamp said:

How do you not see the link between being successful on Bill's staff and nowhere else...Josh McDaniels is basically a child. Meanwhile I wouldn't put to much stock into what Bill Obrien says works.

 

Not being good head coaches doesn't mean they aren't good assistant coaches. 

 

As for Bill O'Brien, it's interesting that your intuition is more reliable in this matter than the guy who spent five years working on Belichick's staff. 

[ColtRider]

11 hours ago, Superman said:

 

It is what it is. I think they want someone who can coach up interior linemen, and weren't satisfied with the guy they had. 

 

I don't have any problem with a coach retooling his staff as he sees fit. We obviously have no idea what the dynamic is, or what the actual expectations are, so I hesitate to say that anyone is being scapegoated. I think Belichick wants a better OL coach, and that makes sense to me.

 

I already have summized that Belichick IS the OL Coach. For years. Just think he needs someone to coach-up his techniques after finding the talent to perform. BB knows OLs. 

[chad72]

56 minutes ago, bababooey said:

Bulsworth could have been great. Third round. Still you can't blame that on the OL when you don't invest high draft picks in it for a LONG time...

 

You still don't get the point. It does not matter if you don't invest high draft picks on the OL all the time for a long time of even 10 years. The Pats invested in Nate Solder and Sebastian Vollmer because Matt Light retired and Logan Mankins, Dan Koppen were still there but they planned for the future on the tackle front. 

 

Tackles - yes, you invest high round draft picks on. Guards, you don't need to unless a highly rated guard slides. It was not till the 2007 draft when Ugoh was drafted did the Polians pull the trigger for about 9 years on an OL pick in the first 2 rounds. High draft picks on OL matter mainly on the tackle front because tackles are at a premium in the draft, the Pats did that. 

 

It is not an OL talent issue with the Pats, they coached up pretty much the same OL last year with better results, it is a coaching issue.

[Superman]

1 minute ago, ColtRider said:

 

I already have summized that Belichick IS the OL Coach. For years. Just think he needs someone to coach-up his techniques after finding the talent to perform. BB knows OLs. 

 

I disagree. I think Belichick is tops, but his staff is just as important to him as the staff for any other head coach. 

 

Also, Belichick has never specifically coached OL. Not that he wouldn't be qualified; if he wanted to be the Colts OL coach, I'd have no problem with his qualifications (his methods, on the other hand...) But I doubt that he would not allow his assistants to do their jobs. 

[ColtRider]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I disagree. I think Belichick is tops, but his staff is just as important to him as the staff for any other head coach. 

 

Also, Belichick has never specifically coached OL. Not that he wouldn't be qualified; if he wanted to be the Colts OL coach, I'd have no problem with his qualifications (his methods, on the other hand...) But I doubt that he would not allow his assistants to do their jobs. 

 

Oh, I'm sure he allows his assistants to do their job. No doubt. Right after he explains to them what he wants. 

 

Hey, can't agree on everything. I see it differently.

[Superman]

1 minute ago, ColtRider said:

 

Oh, I'm sure he allows his assistants to do their job. No doubt. Right after he explains to them what he wants. 

 

Hey, can't agree on everything. I see it differently.

 

We probably don't disagree that much. I think the bolded applies to most head coaches.

 

Compare him to Pagano, for instance, and I think Pagano gives a general directive to the offensive staff, then leaves the room. I think Belichick probably goes more in depth and explains how he wants to get to where he wants to go, and he could even get in on the gameplanning if he has a younger, newer OC. But then he lets the offensive staff do the job. 

 

I think he's capable of a lot more than most other head coaches, when necessary. But I think his position coaches are just as important as they are anywhere else.

 

JMO

[ColtRider]

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

We probably don't disagree that much. I think the bolded applies to most head coaches.

 

Compare him to Pagano, for instance, and I think Pagano gives a general directive to the offensive staff, then leaves the room. I think Belichick probably goes more in depth and explains how he wants to get to where he wants to go, and he could even get in on the gameplanning if he has a younger, newer OC. But then he lets the offensive staff do the job. 

 

I think he's capable of a lot more than most other head coaches, when necessary. But I think his position coaches are just as important as they are anywhere else.

 

JMO

 

I agree. I think Belichick is a HC that takes exception to excuses. I believe he lies out his objectives with every assistant, of course, then follows a pattern of undaunting perfection as it were. He's probably the only HC that creates an atmosphere of "win at all costs" right at the edge of the envelope. Sometimes, that gets pushed over the edge with all the gated stuff. 

 

Just seems he has his hand & mind into everyone in New England and they're all on the same page. Once that's accomplished, it's wavy-gravy from then on with his set objectives.

 

I've said this before in other threads. He has a "Thundering Velvet Hand!" That's hard to consistently use year in and year out with this game. There have been others such as Bill Walsh, Tom Landry, Don Shula, et.al. 

 

However, Belichick has been the best with that tag line. 

[jet1968]

I think the Pats line did a good job this year considering other then their last game.

[RockThatBlue]

Might just be me and no disrespect to the OP, but I'm getting tired of people being called scapegoats once they lose their job. 95% of the time people are fired because they weren't good at their job or jobs. I hate the Pats as much as anybody, but their o line was not all that great this year. I could see a good reason for him being canned as it was probably necessary. 

[DougDew]

Obviously the GM sucks.  Brady got hit more than any other QB in the AFCCG.  NE failed to invest enough draft picks and FA money into protecting their franchise....starting 3 rookies...none of whom were drafted in the first round.  There is no other way to see it. The GM and HC should be fired.

 

Obviously the assistant coach is being scapegoated.

[ColtRider]

57 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Obviously the GM sucks.  Brady got hit more than any other QB in the AFCCG.  NE failed to invest enough draft picks and FA money into protecting their franchise....starting 3 rookies...none of whom were drafted in the first round.  There is no other way to see it. The GM and HC should be fired.

 

Obviously the assistant coach is being scapegoated.

 

Ah, the irony of sarcasm dripping into our pretentious heads.   Nice post, DD!

[BloodyChamp]

6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Not being good head coaches doesn't mean they aren't good assistant coaches. 

 

As for Bill O'Brien, it's interesting that your intuition is more reliable in this matter than the guy who spent five years working on Belichick's staff. 

Yeah I really see the influence...Bill B. would have made the same decisions in that Ryan Mallett game.

[southwest1]

On January 26, 2016 at 11:45 PM, SkyBane said:

The O line is better than people give it credit for, the real reason to question Grigson is his first round success rate. He's done decent-good finding talent outside the first round, but check this out

 

2012 draft:

1-1: Andrew Luck

 

2013 draft:

1-24: Bjoern Werner

 

2014 draft:

traded to Cleveland- Trent Richardson

 

2015 draft: 

1-29: Phillip Dorsett

 

W H E W

H

E

W 

Grigson doesn't get credit for Andrew Luck SB. That call was Jim Irsay's not Ryan's. Watch the 1st press conference in 2012 that Grigson had again. A reporter asked Ryan about Peyton Manning's future & he said that was the owner's call not his to make not his. Ergo, Jimmy released Peyton & went with Luck from Stanford University. 

 

Mr. Double speak CIA imposter 'Jack Ryan' AKA Ryan Grigson gets zero credit for picking Chewbacca. Try again. 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

22 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Except they haven't owned manning led teams in the last decade.  

 

maybe not the last 3 years but as a Colt  ,  In all the meetings I can recall 18 had been pretty much on the receiving end in regards to the patties  this was the first time I can recall a defense that 18 called teammates was able to smack & batter 12 it was fun to watch .

 

 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

19 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

Might just be me and no disrespect to the OP, but I'm getting tired of people being called scapegoats once they lose their job. 95% of the time people are fired because they weren't good at their job or jobs. I hate the Pats as much as anybody, but their o line was not all that great this year. I could see a good reason for him being canned as it was probably necessary. 

 

 

 

So 13 wins with 13 different lineups is not that great , Okay what is then ? 15 wins & 1 big loss ?

 

 

[bababooey]

27 minutes ago, ÅÐØNϧ 1 said:

 

maybe not the last 3 years but as a Colt  ,  In all the meetings I can recall 18 had been pretty much on the receiving end in regards to the patties  this was the first time I can recall a defense that 18 called teammates was able to smack & batter 12 it was fun to watch .

 

 

Manning is 6-5 over the last decade after starting 0-6, 4 as a Colt and 2 as a Bronco. 3 of those are in the AFC championship including both as a Bronco. One of the recent losses includes the primetime OT game in NE that Welker blew by not telling his teammates to get out of the way of the ball on a punt.

[dgambill]

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 9:27 PM, Superman said:

Their line has been barely average, or worse, for a couple years now. 

I agree...but then again I don't think they have put the emphasis on it that they should have. They have abandoned the run in favor of the quick pass and that doesn't help....along with shipping off Logan Mankins....and the injuries....I just wasn't sure it was this guys fault. Just a week before they shut down the second best pass rush in the league...I think it was more an issue with being too stubborn to change their game plan than just bad OL coaching. What happened to the team that would run for 250 yds against us than the next week throw 40 times....now its just throw for 40 one week....and then for 50 the next and then 55 the following....it just isn't sustainable. Had they taken a page out of the Broncos play book and stayed committed to the run longer maybe they break a long one or two or wear down the pass rush...then open it up. It wasn't like they were playing from a 2 score deficit...I honestly believe they thought they were smart enough to out play the Broncos by throwing it.

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, bababooey said:

Manning is 6-5 over the last decade after starting 0-6, 4 as a Colt and 2 as a Bronco. 3 of those are in the AFC championship including both as a Bronco. One of the recent losses includes the primetime OT game in NE that Welker blew by not telling his teammates to get out of the way of the ball on a punt.

A big factor is HFA. The way the scheduling worked out Tom has had more home games than Peyton. Don't get me wrong Tom has been better on the road against Peyton than the opposite but in the last 10 years Peyton has won his home games more often than not....and Tom has dominated at home. That loss was a tough one...it was a crazy game and actually could have ended in a tie most likely not for that last play.

[chad72]

13 minutes ago, dgambill said:

A big factor is HFA. The way the scheduling worked out Tom has had more home games than Peyton. Don't get me wrong Tom has been better on the road against Peyton than the opposite but in the last 10 years Peyton has won his home games more often than not....and Tom has dominated at home. That loss was a tough one...it was a crazy game and actually could have ended in a tie most likely not for that last play.

 

Peyton and OT do not go well together lately.

 

2010 Cowboys OT game that he lost as a Colt, then 2012 Ravens playoff game that he lost in OT, 2013 Patriots regular season game that he lost in OT, 2014 Seahawks regular season game that he lost in OT.

 

Once you make it a war of attrition vs Peyton in OT, he and his team wear down, it seems like at least lately. That is why I was scared that Brady might come back to tie it at 20-20, it would almost be a death knell given Peyton's recent history in OT.

 

Not to mention the 2 playoff OT losses vs the Dolphins 17-23 in 2000 and to the Chargers 17-23 in 2008 for Peyton. However, he won enough in OT during that time frame. But since 2010, it has been tough sledding, if I remember right.

[bababooey]

8 minutes ago, dgambill said:

A big factor is HFA. The way the scheduling worked out Tom has had more home games than Peyton. Don't get me wrong Tom has been better on the road against Peyton than the opposite but in the last 10 years Peyton has won his home games more often than not....and Tom has dominated at home. That loss was a tough one...it was a crazy game and actually could have ended in a tie most likely not for that last play.

True, looking back on the games the regular season ones were 8 in NE, 4 in Indy, none in Denver.

 

Playoff matchups in chronological order were two in NE, one in Indy, and two in Denver, all won by the home team. The only QBs to beat Brady in NE in the playoffs are Joe Flacco twice and Mark Sanchez.

 

Peyton's first two victories over Brady were both regular season at Gillette, none in the playoffs though (0-2). Every game after those two road wins that Peyton beat Brady was at home. He came close in his last game as a Colt and threw a head scratcher of a pick at the end when they were in FG range to tie it, even worse was the blown lead in NE on that primetime game that went into OT and Welker didn't signal for his team to get out of the way of the punt, it hit someone and NE recovered and won on a chipshot FG, both which happened in NE. 

[Superman]

22 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I agree...but then again I don't think they have put the emphasis on it that they should have. They have abandoned the run in favor of the quick pass and that doesn't help....along with shipping off Logan Mankins....and the injuries....I just wasn't sure it was this guys fault. Just a week before they shut down the second best pass rush in the league...I think it was more an issue with being too stubborn to change their game plan than just bad OL coaching. What happened to the team that would run for 250 yds against us than the next week throw 40 times....now its just throw for 40 one week....and then for 50 the next and then 55 the following....it just isn't sustainable. Had they taken a page out of the Broncos play book and stayed committed to the run longer maybe they break a long one or two or wear down the pass rush...then open it up. It wasn't like they were playing from a 2 score deficit...I honestly believe they thought they were smart enough to out play the Broncos by throwing it.

 

My point was that I don't think the Patriots fired the OL coach just because they played poorly on Sunday. 

 

To the bolded, there's no way for us to know these things. Changes to positional coaches are always hard to really understand, but I don't think those decisions are made on the basis of one game.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

2 hours ago, bababooey said:

Manning is 6-5 over the last decade after starting 0-6, 4 as a Colt and 2 as a Bronco. 3 of those are in the AFC championship including both as a Bronco. One of the recent losses includes the primetime OT game in NE that Welker blew by not telling his teammates to get out of the way of the ball on a punt.

 

Not looking to slam just pointing out the obvious .

Decade is a poor choice of words clearly.

 

Since 18 was drafted by the Colts  which of course is longer than a decade his history versus the Patriots has been a source of great contention a decade is like a pie you can slice it how ever you choose 1998 - 2016 is much more given a good  defense Peyton Manning is who we thought he was a great QB .

[our_dbs_rock]

On 1/26/2016 at 8:01 PM, SilentHill said:

Rumor has it he was responsible for the air pressure in the balls yesterday, needless to say they were not to Tom's liking.

 

I read that as "needle less" at first.

[Superman]

Belichick said today that DD's contract was up, and they agreed to part ways. Still a firing, likely.

[dgambill]

On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 11:24 AM, Superman said:

 

My point was that I don't think the Patriots fired the OL coach just because they played poorly on Sunday. 

 

To the bolded, there's no way for us to know these things. Changes to positional coaches are always hard to really understand, but I don't think those decisions are made on the basis of one game.

Very good point. I thought all things considering (injuries, rookies, and coaching staff not even ATTEMPTING a running game this year) that this guy hadn't done too bad a job...he was well regarded coming in..won a sb against a great defense...and yes they had a lot of problems this year but I personally didn't feel it looked like it was a coaching thing. Perhaps he didn't fit in...but the side of my brain that questions things says perhaps this was a way to deflect some blame when this game IMO was lost in the playcalling/gameplanning phase....to me this team got outcoached...something we've never done to NE but of course we never had the horses Wade has either.

[dgambill]

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 10:14 AM, BloodyChamp said:

How do you not see the link between being successful on Bill's staff and nowhere else...Josh McDaniels is basically a child. Meanwhile I wouldn't put to much stock into what Bill Obrien says works.

I think its very very hard to duplicate NE...the reason being is because it isn't necessarily a system (like west coast offense or some special defense) its game planning differently week in and week out to beat teams....and having personnel that is flexible and good at multiple things (very hard to build that up) and the hardest thing is finding a Tom Brady. Lets be honest if McDaniels or Obrein have a Tom Brady on their team in Denver or Houston they probably have a SB caliber team. Same with Romeo. To build an organization like Bill's it takes time...years...many drafts...and you have to walk into a good roster to begin with (Parcell didn't leave the cupboard bare before Bill came). So starting off with a franchise qb...roster full of high character..tough guys...well you should be successful enough to stay in a place and build something. That said most of Bill's coaches have gone places and not had nearly the time or roster to win with. The main thing...is Tom covers up a lot of weaknesses...and there aren't any other Tom's out there (thank god or we would never win a playoff game). So overall...I believe it can work...but you need time to get it up and running and you NEED that franchise qb to cover up your weaknesses.

[Yehoodi]

Just to be clear up a misnomer regarding the OL coach, his contract was up at the end of this season and the Pats decided not to renew his contract.  So basically he did not have a job the moment the clock read 0:00 of the AFCCG.

 

My guess is that the pats wish to not renew his contract was something that was in the works for a while now.  Some folks/fans here in NE were not exactly a fan of the initial hire.  True the OL played well most of the second half of last year. 

 

We did lose some starters via retirement and IR this season and it was not playing well most of the season with the team trying different combinations, the most in the NFL, to try to get it right.  Surely part of that is due to the injuries but perhaps coaching could of helped.

 

Given that the OL gave up the most QB hits in a decade in the AFCCG, some can understand why the pats wanted to move on with another OL coach.

 

[BloodyChamp]

I th you're giving Brady way to much credit DG, and not enough to Bill. Yes it takes time to build what Bill has built but Bill is still who built it. Meanwhile that kills the "nothing without Brady" theory. The Browns were headed in the right direction before Modell went crazy. They'd gotten through the Kosar divorce, won a playoff game and were over .500 for most of that season before Model's bomb.