Can we stop blaming Whalen now?

[1959Colts]

It's absolutely true. He wasn't supposed to snap the ball. Maybe he wasn't aware that he wasn't supposed to snap it, but he wasn't.

 

But if he isn't aware. Then he really isn't to blame.

[1959Colts]

It's absolutely true. He wasn't supposed to snap the ball. Maybe he wasn't aware that he wasn't supposed to snap it, but he wasn't.

 

According to McAfee:

 

it says if we get under center, snap it

[Superman]

But if he isn't aware. Then he really isn't to blame.

 

According to McAfee:

 

it says if we get under center, snap it

 

I don't know what you're looking for. The ball wasn't supposed to be snapped, and he snapped it. 

[SurfinKal]

So if the Pats were caught in a personnel change and the ball hiked then blown dead by the whistle, wouldnt that be off setting penalties becasue of the illegal formation?

 

Sounds to me like Coach Pagano still needs to be fired.

[Yehoodi]

You may have already heard this, but this is what I know about the situation:

 

1. They practiced the play throughout the week with Geathers as the Center. Geathers was hurt and Whalen subbed in for him.

2. Whalen had not practiced this play and did not know the audible.

3. The play was designed to fool NE into thinking the punt team was running off of the field. If NE subbed extra guys in, then the Colts would snap the ball to get the penalty called on NE.

4. Anderson was supposed to look for this and only get under center if he expected the snap.

5. Anderson got under center but said the audible, which Whalen did not know. Then Whalen snapped the ball and we all know what happened after.

 

Hence the "miscommunication' that they have claimed all along. You can blame Whalen for snapping the ball, but in that situation he was the center with his head down and he had to trust Anderson playing the QB position, who was supposed to look at NE's defensive substitution.

 

This is basically as how is see it.  And to be honest we do not know all of the facts to determine if we can blame Whalen on not.  For me, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

As you mentioned as the center he does not have his head up and must rely on the QB to tell him if there are 12 men on the field and to hike the ball, so Whalen was at the mercy of Anderson, the fill in QB.

 

For those who think he should not have hike the ball, lets turn this around.  If we had the typically QB center exchange with a 12th defender on the field and the QB is yelling to hike the ball is the center not supposed to hike it?  Ah, the answer to that question would be a no and the center is supposed to hike it, and get those 5 yards. 

 

The problem is you have inexperience folks at center and QB with the center's only knowledge is that his team is trying to get 5 yards with a 12 man on the field play, and if he hears the words "hike", like the normal center in the above exchange his job IS to hike the ball so his team, in this case, get a first down on penalty.   

 

Now this comes down to what was said by Anderson.  If indeed he yelled three times "Don't hike the ball" perhaps in all of the confusion, first time at center trying a trick play he may have just heard the last three words "Hike the ball", in which case he is relying on Anderson who has the view of the field and can see if a pats player has come on the pitch,  and like a good center he is, his job at that point is to hike the ball as a that is all he knows.

 

This kind of reminds me of the game 6 of the 1975 World Series between the Red Sox and Reds and in the bottom of the ninth the Soxs had runners on first and third and nobody out.  Denny Doyle was on third base and Fred Lynn flied out to short left field to George Foster in left field.  Don Zimmer, then our third base coach, yelled "No!, No! No!" telling Doyle not to go, Doyle thought he heard "Go!, Go!, Go!", so he tags and tries to make it home and was thrown out by Foster.   Mcnaney then retired Rico Petrocelli and the game goes into extra innings which we fortunately won, so no harm done.  But it just goes to show you if you have similarly sounding but opposite instructions, things can happen.   Just as "no no no" can be heard as "go go go", so can "don't hike the ball" be heard as "hike the ball"

 

I don't really fault Whalen if indeed the above is how things panned out.   

[1959Colts]

I don't know what you're looking for. The ball wasn't supposed to be snapped, and he snapped it. 

 

I am not looking for anything. I think you should ask yourself your own question.

 

I am only trying to say that, if a player only knows whats in the playbook. And was never told that they made a change to that play.

When he does exactly as the playbook dictates. He should not be blamed.

 

After all, The title of this thread is "Can we stop blaming Whalen now"

[Yehoodi]

So if the Pats were caught in a personnel change and the ball hiked then blown dead by the whistle, wouldnt that be off setting penalties becasue of the illegal formation?

 

Sounds to me like Coach Pagano still needs to be fired.

 

Yes, I believe they are off setting penalties, but as such they would replay 4th down and the colts would simply punt the ball

[Superman]

So if the Pats were caught in a personnel change and the ball hiked then blown dead by the whistle, wouldnt that be off setting penalties becasue of the illegal formation?

 

Sounds to me like Coach Pagano still needs to be fired.

 

LOL

 

First, yes, the penalties would offset, which sucks.

 

Second, Pagano should be fired because the punt team didn't line up properly? Wow. 

[Superman]

I am not looking for anything. I think you should ask yourself your own question.

 

I am only trying to say that, if a player only knows whats in the playbook. And was never told that they made a change to that play.

When he does exactly as the playbook dictates. He should not be blamed.

 

After all, The title of this thread is "Can we stop blaming Whalen now"

 

And the answer is, no, because he snapped the ball. 

 

I have no ill will toward Whalen, and I actually feel sorry for him, but he still shouldn't have snapped the ball, and EVERYONE knows it.

[CoachLite]

No. He still snapped the ball.

He (in this case Griff) was supposed to snap the ball IF the Patriots had 12 men on the field caused by "confusion". Now maybe Griff miscounted, or someone else yelled "hike", but the whole thing was a bone-headed mistake from the start.

[1959Colts]

The center is not the one who decides.

[Yehoodi]

I don't know what you're looking for. The ball wasn't supposed to be snapped, and he snapped it. 

 

Well the ball was supposed to be snapped if there was a 12th man on the field.  And as some are saying Whalen is relying on Anderson to give him instruction to snap the ball when there is a 12th man on the field.   And if Whalen hears "hike the ball" what he is supposed to do? 

 

I have an expanded version of this post in my post #85.

 

I hear what you are saying Supes, but I will give Whalen the benefit of the doubt if things unfolded as I mentioned in my prior post.

[Flash7]

And the answer is, no, because he snapped the ball. 

 

I have no ill will toward Whalen, and I actually feel sorry for him, but he still shouldn't have snapped the ball, and EVERYONE knows it.

Superman, I think why you are getting so many responses in this thread is perhaps because you appear to be placing blame solely on Whalen.

 

I think we can all agree that Whalen should NOT have snapped the ball. It's clearly evident now.

 

What some are trying to figure out is where blame should appropriately be placed. Currently, Whalen is taking the blunt of it. Many feel it's not warranted due to all of the new information coming out. There are others (coaches, Colt Anderson) that can, and should, take some of the blame.

[csmopar]

Didn't we just confirm that Whalen snapped the ball when he wasn't supposed to?

He had no idea of what the audibles were and he had no idea he wasn't supposed to snap it. Matter of fact, he never even practiced this play either. Not his fault

[1959Colts]

Regardless of which players are to blame,

Just an asinine situation for Pagano to put the team in.

[UKColt13]

Yes. He made a mistake. DQ blew a coverage on Gronk. Luck missed a couple of throws.

Play as a team, win as a team, lose as a team.

[NewEra]

Regardless, whenever you get done with it they should of grabbed Whalen before running out there and make sure he doesn't hike the damn ball. I blame coaching...

[1959Colts]

Regardless, whenever you get done with it they should of grabbed Whalen before running out there and make sure he doesn't hike the damn ball. I blame coaching...

 

Telling him not to hike it is wrong too. Why would they do that?

What if NE did have 12 men on the field?

Then Whalen would have to hike it.

Afterall, the whole point of running the fake punt was to catch them with 12 men.

 

The playbook reads, according to Pat McAfee:

...it says if we get under center, snap it

[NewEra]

Telling him not to hike it is wrong too.

What if NE did have 12 men on the field?

Then Whalen would have to hike it.

Then tell him that also. He needs to know what to do. He needs to be taught...by a coach

[GoColts8818]

On ESPN NFL Live they are slamming Pagano for this.

The one reporter mentioned that the entire right side of the line was lined up illegally. Right in front of the Colts sidelines, yet the coaches didn't call time out.

because they didn't think the ball was going to be snapped.

Still the fact it was called was a coaching fail, even more so hearing what Pat said today. There is no real argument to defend the coaches here.

[1959Colts]

because they didn't think the ball was going to be snapped.

Still the fact it was called was a coaching fail, even more so hearing what Pat said today. There is no real argument to defend the coaches here.

 

But had the play worked, and NE gets charged with the 5 yard penalty, the whole thing would end up being for nothing, because we lined up in an illegal formation. As I said before, simply asinine.

[Cynjin]

LOL

 

First, yes, the penalties would offset, which sucks.

 

Second, Pagano should be fired because the punt team didn't line up properly? Wow.

Of course, every coach should be fired after every illegal formation penalty is called. Eject them from the game right then and there and ask them not to come back.

On a serious note it is not getting any better for Pagano and Pat did not help Pagano's cause after what he said this morning.

[Superman]

Superman, I think why you are getting so many responses in this thread is perhaps because you appear to be placing blame solely on Whalen.

 

I think we can all agree that Whalen should NOT have snapped the ball. It's clearly evident now.

 

What some are trying to figure out is where blame should appropriately be placed. Currently, Whalen is taking the blunt of it. Many feel it's not warranted due to all of the new information coming out. There are others (coaches, Colt Anderson) that can, and should, take some of the blame.

 

I've said several times that other people are to blame. But the thread asks 'can we stop blaming Whalen.' The answer, IMO, is no.

[1959Colts]

Of course, every coach should be fired after every illegal formation penalty is called. Eject them from the game right then and there and ask them not to come back.

On a serious note it is not getting any better for Pagano and Pat did not help Pagano's cause after what he said this morning.

 

It's cumulative. These foolish situations add up. Not just the one illegal formation.

This team has had way too many embarrassing moments this year.

Penalties, blocked extra point, poor decision making, Blown coverages, etc etc,

[Cynjin]

It's cumulative. These foolish situations add up. Not just the one illegal formation.

This team has had way too many embarressing moments this year.

Penalties, blocked extra points, poor decision making, Blown coverages, etc etc,

Yeah it is a cumulative effect. I am disappointed in how the offense has underachieved and how undisaplined they have been this year.

At this point I really would like to know how much input Pagano has with the offense and the coaching decisions, not that I expect to.

[Superman]

Of course, every coach should be fired after every illegal formation penalty is called. Eject them from the game right then and there and ask them not to come back.

On a serious note it is not getting any better for Pagano and Pat did not help Pagano's cause after what he said this morning.

 

No, it's not, but oh well. Pagano has a job to do, and he should be judged on how well he does it. 

 

That's a far cry from 'fire him because we messed up a fake punt call!' He might be out after this year, but it won't be because of that play. And we still have 10 games remaining, so this is premature, IMO.

[1959Colts]

Maybe against the Saints they can let Whalen run the Old Statue of Liberty Play?

[RockThatBlue]

Regardless of which players are to blame,

Just an asinine situation for Pagano to put the team in.

Yup. Pagano should have at least called a timeout. And he didn't even do that. I feel sorry for Whalen, he's getting 100% of the blame from some people when he's barely 50% to blame. Pagano screwed the pooch here big time.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

No!

He lacks the speed, size, and athleticism to make BONE HEAD PLAYS.

[DougDew]

How is Whalen supposed to know how many players are on the field when he has his head down, and before that he's in shift mode and running away from the Pats bench, not able to follow any subs off the sideline? 

 

IOW, how would he have known to NOT snap the ball?

 

And McAfee said Griff knows every play in the playbook, but didn't practice being the center it at all.

 

That's kind of like asking Andre Johnson to fill in for Hugh Thornton at guard.  Since he knows the playbook, he should know the Oline schemes.

[1959Colts]

Looks like there is more to this story than meets the eye.

And Gregg Doyles latest article sums it all up:

 

Gregg Doyel ‏@GreggDoyelStar 3h3 hours ago

Pagano watches as we laugh at Griff Whalen.

 

Column: http://indy.st/1RUH8MD 

 

[csmopar]

Looks like there is more to this story than meets the eye.

And Gregg Doyles latest article sums it all up:

Gregg Doyel ‏@GreggDoyelStar 3h3 hours ago

Pagano watches as we laugh at Griff Whalen.

Column: http://indy.st/1RUH8MD

link no workie

[1959Colts]

Doyel on Colts fake punt: Pagano watches as we laugh at Griff Whalen

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2015/10/20/doyel-pagano-watches-we-laugh-griff-whalen/74293386/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=FeedBlitzRss&utm_content=Doyel%3a+Pagano+watches+as+we+laugh+at+Griff+Whalen

[csmopar]

Doyel on Colts fake punt: Pagano watches as we laugh at Griff Whalen

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2015/10/20/doyel-pagano-watches-we-laugh-griff-whalen/74293386/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=FeedBlitzRss&utm_content=Doyel%3a+Pagano+watches+as+we+laugh+at+Griff+Whalen

Thanks.

I don't like Doyle. But he's 110 percent correct

[Cynjin]

Doyel on Colts fake punt: Pagano watches as we laugh at Griff Whalen

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2015/10/20/doyel-pagano-watches-we-laugh-griff-whalen/74293386/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=FeedBlitzRss&utm_content=Doyel%3a+Pagano+watches+as+we+laugh+at+Griff+Whalen

See, this is the problem with Pat going on a show and saying what he did. McAfee should of kept this in the locker room.

[1959Colts]

See, this is the problem with Pat going on a show and saying what he did. McAfee should of kept this in the locker room.

 

But by keeping it in the locker room, Whalen is the scape goat.

I think McAfee wanted to back up his teammate.

Too bad for Chuck.

[Cynjin]

But by keeping it in the locker room, Whalen is the scape goat.

I think McAfee wanted to back up his teammate.

Too bad for Chuck.

You do not take things like that public. If McAfee wanted to stick up for Whalen, which I believe he was, go to the coach and have it out with him, but never do you go public.

[OLD FAN MAN]

the play is history, let it rest, the question is, what will grif do the next time we run this play?

[Superman]

See, this is the problem with Pat going on a show and saying what he did. McAfee should of kept this in the locker room.

 

I'm not reading Doyle's article because it's Doyle, but I agree that McAfee probably shouldn't have said anything. 

[Superman]

the play is history, let it rest, the question is, what will grif do the next time we run this play?

 

We'll never run this play again.