Andrew Luck will be greatest ever

[Restored]

With how Luck has started, he is on pace to break all of those records that Peyton Manning has. He is also surrounded by better talent and a better coaching that could lead to him winning more SB's. Combine those two with his characteristics as a person (aka not acting like Johnny Football), then you have some ingredients that could indeed one day make him the greatest QB to ever play.

[hawkeyes]

Basing the accomplishments of individual players solely on a team accomplishment is foolish.

 

THIS!

 

Teams win Superbowls NOT QBs...so tired of the story starving media and their goats judging QBs off the number of rings they have won.

[45ACP]

Basing the accomplishments of individual players solely on a team accomplishment is foolish.

Basing a players value on individual accomplishments is foolish.  The goal is to win.  Some players have a special talent to figure out a way to win, and other players show great individual stats but never manage to win.  Being a Colts fan, I don't care about Luck's individual stats, I care about the Colts winning. 

[Cynjin]

Basing a players value on individual accomplishments is foolish.  The goal is to win.  Some players have a special talent to figure out a way to win, and other players show great individual stats but never manage to win.  Being a Colts fan, I don't care about Luck's individual stats, I care about the Colts winning. 

 

I do not care about Luck's individual stats to a point, but they do have a direct correlation to how the Colts perform.  The Colts winning, just like the teams of the players you mentioned, has more to do with the teams built around them.  The fact is that those players are not more accomplished than Luck purely because their teams won Superbowls, they may be for other reasons but certainly not just because the teams they are on won a Superbowl in the second year of a QB playing.

[dw49]

I have been watching and following the NFL for 53 years. You have no clue as to what I know. I am sorry if you take anything that don't agree with you as an insult. Like I stated before. If you don't like my comments use your ignore button. It is very easy. If you have a problem I am sure one of the mods could help you out.

 

 

No problem with you disagreeing as I understand that you were mistaken as to when one's career started and the others ended. You insulted me by saying I was delusional or had a wild imagination.  I very nicely went through what you were having trouble comprehending. I realize you were a bit embarrassed to appear not to understand. Everyone knows a John Elway would change a teams fortunes for not only the length of his career but probably some years going forward. No problem hitting the ignore as I really have no problem just dominating you.

[crazycolt1]

No problem with you disagreeing as I understand that you were mistaken as to when one's career started and the others ended. You insulted me by saying I was delusional or had a wild imagination.  I very nicely went through what you were having trouble comprehending. I realize you were a bit embarrassed to appear not to understand. Everyone knows a John Elway would change a teams fortunes for not only the length of his career but probably some years going forward. No problem hitting the ignore as I really have no problem just dominating you.

Now I know you are delusional.

[45ACP]

I do not care about Luck's individual stats to a point, but they do have a direct correlation to how the Colts perform.  The Colts winning, just like the teams of the players you mentioned, has more to do with the teams built around them.  The fact is that those players are not more accomplished than Luck purely because their teams won Superbowls, they may be for other reasons but certainly not just because the teams they are on won a Superbowl in the second year of a QB playing.

Case in point: the Colts had one heck of an offense in Manning's prime, putting up records consistently.  All those passing yards and touchdowns were fine, but Manning always choked during the playoffs.  That is what I am talking about.  He never had that "it" that special players have.  That "it" that cannot be quantified.  Sort of like Derek Jeter's "intangibles". The guy just won.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

No problem with you disagreeing as I understand that you were mistaken as to when one's career started and the others ended. You insulted me by saying I was delusional or had a wild imagination.  I very nicely went through what you were having trouble comprehending. I realize you were a bit embarrassed to appear not to understand. Everyone knows a John Elway would change a teams fortunes for not only the length of his career but probably some years going forward. No problem hitting the ignore as I really have no problem just dominating you.

 

If Elway had signed with the Colts and played the same amount of years , he would have been our QB in 1998   If If If   HUH ???

 

The above statement is correct yet you leave out his threat to play baseball & his absolute refusal to being a Colt Period  so the Colts caved in so yes John Elway would change a teams fortunes a baseball team or the Broncos IMO but never a team in Baltimore .

 

" IF" to support a argument & then getting offended is a lil delusional & is wildly imaginative .

 

IMO  What ifs are worthless & meaningless & don't pass the smell test .. 

[Cynjin]

Case in point: the Colts had one heck of an offense in Manning's prime, putting up records consistently.  All those passing yards and touchdowns were fine, but Manning always choked during the playoffs.  That is what I am talking about.  He never had that "it" that special players have.  That "it" that cannot be quantified.  Sort of like Derek Jeter's "intangibles". The guy just won.

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree with the importance you seem to be putting on a team accomplishment to judge an individual player. Manning did have great offensive numbers, but rarely had a good defense and special teams to go with the offense. Manning's "choking" quite possibly was due to the lack of a good team around him causing him to press and take greater risks knowing that either the special teams or defense would not hold up. An example would be the Super Bowl against the Saints when in the second half the special teams failed to recover the onsides kick and, if I recall correctly, the defense did not stop the Saints offense at all.

[Jason_]

If Elway had signed with the Colts and played the same amount of years , he would have been our QB in 1998   If If If   HUH ???

 

The above statement is correct yet you leave out his threat to play baseball & his absolute refusal to being a Colt Period  so the Colts caved in so yes John Elway would change a teams fortunes a baseball team or the Broncos IMO but never a team in Baltimore .

 

" IF" to support a argument & then getting offended is a lil delusional & is wildly imaginative .

 

IMO  What ifs are worthless & meaningless & don't pass the smell test .. 

 

How is saying "if Elway had signed" leaving out his threat to play baseball and his refusal to be a Colt.  Elway did refuse and he did threaten and that's why he didn't sign.  So, the real history is that Elway did not sign, and that's why dw said if Elway had signed. 

 

As for the rest of that discussion...I can see both sides.  On one hand, if Elway had signed with the Colts and had a career comparative to what he had with Denver then yeah, it's highly unlikely that the Colts are in a position to draft Manning.  However, there are a ton of variables in that scenario...with the Colts coaching staff at that time, would Elway have turned out to be the same caliber of player?  Would he have had the same lack of injuries?  Would he have had an offensive system that would have let him thrive and skill players and OL around him to allow him to have been successful?

[45ACP]

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree with the importance you seem to be putting on a team accomplishment to judge an individual player. Manning did have great offensive numbers, but rarely had a good defense and special teams to go with the offense. Manning's "choking" quite possibly was due to the lack of a good team around him causing him to press and take greater risks knowing that either the special teams or defense would not hold up. An example would be the Super Bowl against the Saints when in the second half the special teams failed to recover the onsides kick and, if I recall correctly, the defense did not stop the Saints offense at all.

We're in agreement I think.  We both wish for Manning to revert to his choker role when the Colts play Denver on Sunday.

[Cynjin]

We're in agreement I think.  We both wish for Manning to revert to his choker role when the Colts play Denver on Sunday.

We absolutely agree, however I am more likely to give the credit to the Colts defense if that was to occur.

[OffensivelyPC]

Luck is not more accomplished than several recent QBs.  Roethlisberger won a Super Bowl in his 2nd year, Brady also.

This is the quintessential reason why people shouldn't be attributing team accomplishments to the QB.  The Steelers won that superbowl, but it was in spite of Ben's play that day.

[Dark Superman]

The young man is very good. He has all the tools.

He can have all the tools, but if we don't get him a solid offensive line and running game, he's never going to be able to play up to his potential.

[Dark Superman]

We absolutely agree, however I am more likely to give the credit to the Colts defense if that was to occur.

I think we all want that to happen..

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

There will never be one single undisputed GOAT at the quarterback position.

The only positions you could say there is an undisputed GOAT is at WR Rice, CB Sanders, Punter: Guy. But at QB there is so much involved that there will always be major dispute over who's the GOAT there.

Rod Woodson would like to have a word with Prime Time.

[45ACP]

This is the quintessential reason why people shouldn't be attributing team accomplishments to the QB.  The Steelers won that superbowl, but it was in spite of Ben's play that day.

And here we have a thread where Colts fans are proclaiming Luck the Greatest of All Time.

[OffensivelyPC]

And here we have a thread where Colts fans are proclaiming Luck the Greatest of All Time.

That doesn't have anything to do with what I said.  And for the record, I never said anything about Luck being the all time greatest.  But way to deflect the argument into something irrelevant to mine.

[45ACP]

That doesn't have anything to do with what I said.  And for the record, I never said anything about Luck being the all time greatest.  But way to deflect the argument into something irrelevant to mine.

Sorry - no accusation about you saying anything like that, and no deflection.  Just stating a fact.  And observing how reluctant Colts fans are to equate team success with a QB's greatness (leadership, clutch play etc).

[Jason_]

Rod Woodson would like to have a word with Prime Time.

 

what would Woodson say?  "congratulations for being the greatest of all time?"

 

  I kid, I kid

[ColtStronger]

Huh ?  Dude thats not exactly breaking news .

Didn't say it was news... Pretty sure everybody knows!  It was more an FYI.

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

what would Woodson say? "congratulations for being the greatest of all time?"

I kid, I kid

To me he is a the GOAT COrberback and right up there as a safety as well.

[dw49]

If Elway had signed with the Colts and played the same amount of years , he would have been our QB in 1998   If If If   HUH ???

 

The above statement is correct yet you leave out his threat to play baseball & his absolute refusal to being a Colt Period  so the Colts caved in so yes John Elway would change a teams fortunes a baseball team or the Broncos IMO but never a team in Baltimore .

 

" IF" to support a argument & then getting offended is a lil delusional & is wildly imaginative .

 

IMO  What ifs are worthless & meaningless & don't pass the smell test .. 

 

 

What is so hard for you 2 guys to understand a premise I made that IF John Elway had signed with the colts , we probably would not have had that 1.1 pick in 1998. Is it anymore outrageous than saying "IF" John Elway had signed with us , the odds are we would have won a SB before 2006 ? What in God's name do you mean by saying my statement was correct but I leave out that he didn't play here and cite the reasons why he was able to avoid that. Fact is "IF" John Elway signed with the Colts , it changes our franchise for years. There's nothing outrageous about that statement . Are you two guys in the twilight zone ? 

[Valpo2004]

To your last point, yeah I don't think that'll be the case.  Anything is possible.  But even for Hall of Famers, Jerry Rice was a special breed of football player.  I mean, who can play that well for that long?  I certainly can't think of any other HOF who played at an elite level for nearly 20 years off the top of my head that wasn't a punter or kicker.  Not to mention the shelf life for players is just so much shorter than it used to be for most positions, especially running backs.

 

There are some, but not many.  

 

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/stats/40_and_over_club.aspx

 

(The people listed in red are HOF'ers)

[The Old Crow]

What is so hard for you 2 guys to understand a premise I made that IF John Elway had signed with the colts , we probably would not have had that 1.1 pick in 1998. Is it anymore outrageous than saying "IF" John Elway had signed with us , the odds are we would have won a SB before 2006 ? What in God's name do you mean by saying my statement was correct but I leave out that he didn't play here and cite the reasons why he was able to avoid that. Fact is "IF" John Elway signed with the Colts , it changes our franchise for years. There's nothing outrageous about that statement . Are you two guys in the twilight zone ?

If Elway would have signed with the Colts, it is possible they would still be in Baltimore. Attendance would have improved , and concessions would have been more forthcoming. For Indy fans, it may have been better he was traded to Denver.

[OffensivelyPC]

There are some, but not many.  

 

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/stats/40_and_over_club.aspx

 

(The people listed in red are HOF'ers)

Take out the QBs and P/K's, all that's left is Darrell Green, Jackie Slater, Ken Strong, Bruce Matthews, Bruce Smith, and Jim Thorpe.  Pretty unreal.  If Charles Woodson cna stick it out for two more seasons, he'll be on this list too.

[peytonmanning18]

Luck is a stud but get a grip people. He's 3 years in and ranks right up there with Jay Cutler and Mark Sanchez in terms of turnovers. He's 2-2 in the postseason, everyone just needs to chill. It's stuff like this that gets Skip Bayless and company all fired up

[braveheartcolt]

Luck is a stud but get a grip people. He's 3 years in and ranks right up there with Jay Cutler and Mark Sanchez in terms of turnovers. He's 2-2 in the postseason, everyone just needs to chill. It's stuff like this that gets Skip Bayless and company all fired up

And what about the stats where he eclipdes Brady and Manning etc? Convenient stat cherry picking - the staple diet of a hater.

[peytonmanning18]

And what about the stats where he eclipdes Brady and Manning etc? Convenient stat cherry picking - the staple diet of a hater.

Well when you are using the "greatest of all time" as your measuring stick, then having your number of turnovers comparable to those of Jay Cutler and Mark Sanchez is fair game. It's not "hating" is just factual information.

[Restored]

Well when you are using the "greatest of all time" as your measuring stick, then having your number of turnovers comparable to those of Jay Cutler and Mark Sanchez is fair game. It's not "hating" is just factual information.

 

You do realize that Peyton Manning threw 58 INT's in his 1st 3 seasons and Luck has thrown 43 INT's right? All young QB's turn the ball over unless they're playing in an offense that doesn't ask them to anything more than be a game-manager (ie. Russell Wilson).

[Coltsince4]

luck will go as the greatest athlete to ever play any sport anywhere. football will become known as luckball. there will be statues of him at every stadium

Heeee!!! Heeee!!! Yea you right!! Funny!!

[Coltsince4]

If Elway would have signed with the Colts, it is possible they would still be in Baltimore. Attendance would have improved , and concessions would have been more forthcoming. For Indy fans, it may have been better he was traded to Denver.

Nothing against Indy but that woulda

coulda been alright by me! You know me I's just a straight up Colts fan since 1958!!

[Coltsince4]

Down here in N.O.

[-JJ-]

Yeah .. funny how the cards fell . We lost Elway , which made Manning possible. PM misses one year in 15 and it's the year that brought us "luck," Then you need to add into it that both guys would have been 1.1 or 1.2 in the draft if they came out a year earlier. I've been a Colt fan since 1960 and it's been a crazy ride for sure. Robert Irsay really was just what his mother thought he was.

Yeah nothin' like getting dealt 4 aces.

 

meanwhile we gotta scramble for 6th rounders

[Cynjin]

If Elway would have signed with the Colts, it is possible they would still be in Baltimore. Attendance would have improved , and concessions would have been more forthcoming. For Indy fans, it may have been better he was traded to Denver.

I would guess that it is more than likely the Colts would still be in Baltimore "if" Elway had signed with the Colts back then.

[Coltsince4]

I would guess that it is more than likely the Colts would still be in Baltimore "if" Elway had signed with the Colts back then.

So let's go kick elway's butt for ole time sake!!

[peytonmanning18]

You do realize that Peyton Manning threw 58 INT's in his 1st 3 seasons and Luck has thrown 43 INT's right? All young QB's turn the ball over unless they're playing in an offense that doesn't ask them to anything more than be a game-manager (ie. Russell Wilson).

Well if he stops turning the ball over as much as Jay Cutler and he starts winning multiple Super Bowls then maybe he gets into the discussion.

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

Well if he stops turning the ball over as much as Jay Cutler and he starts winning multiple Super Bowls then maybe he gets into the discussion.

By these qualifiers then Manning is out of that conversation. And I don't know How you stand on Manning.

[The Old Crow]

Nothing against Indy but that woulda

coulda been alright by me! You know me I's just a straight up Colts fan since 1958!!

Me too, but I think everyone is happy the way things turned out. Another question if if Elway would signed if Irsay hadn't hired Kush. Elway's old man hated Kush.

[The Old Crow]

So let's go kick elway's butt for ole time sake!!

It's always a good day to beat Elway !