Chuck Pagano

[BOTT]

I don't know.

[CoachLite]

Good coaches need coaching, too. Usually, that's done by the HCs they work for, but that is insufficient.  The novice needs to find a path to exceed his master, and that master must be very good.  IMO, the best HC of all time was Bill Walsh, but common wisdom holds Vince Lombardi as #1. Belichick makes the top 10.  They saw things other HCs couldn't see, and were able to address whatever it was they saw.

 

It is not one thing that makes a great coach - the sum is greater than the parts - if you can be considered great.  I think we still have a long way to go, even if the potential is there.  I just don't see it.

[#12]

He's a good leader, and after all that's why Irsay said he hired him - for leadership.  With better coordinators, he might be fine.  I don't know.  But under the current structure, it feels like Manning era 2.0, where you have the QB to be competitive, but not the coaching or balanced team for greatness.  It feels like you're fighting the same type of battle. 

[#12]

The honeymoon is over for Chuck - that's for sure. 

[sweetsurrender]

I like Pagano but question if he is the guy to get us where we need to go. There are still personnel issues that Grigs has to address as well.

[JoshPhilpot]

I would like to move him to DC and hire Jim Harbaugh as HC.

 

HC- Jim Harbaugh

OC- Pep Hamilton/Rob Chudzinski

DC- Chuck Pagano

 

Now that would be an awesome coaching staff!

[Moopsiepuffs]

I beg to differ about the team that Pagano started with. There were only like 8 or so players left from the 2-14 team. The offense was completely void. Out of those players left two were kickers.

 

You seem to be confusing the offseason after 2011 with the actual roster of 2012.

 

It doesn't matter if there was "only like 8" players left from 2011, the fact is, that roster which started the 2012 season was not a train wreck (as others have argued in this thread).

 

The offense was void following the 2011 season, but once again, it was filled with players by the start of the 2012 season.

 

To call an offense with Luck, Ballard, Wayne. Fleener, Hilton, Allen "void" is absurd.

 

Pagano was handed a roster FAR from a train wreck. I can think of a bunch of teams who would kill for that roster.

[SteelCityColt]

You seem to be confusing the offseason after 2011 with the actual roster of 2012.

 

It doesn't matter if there was "only like 8" players left from 2011, the fact is, that roster which started the 2012 season was not a train wreck (as others have argued in this thread).

 

The offense was void following the 2011 season, but once again, it was filled with players by the start of the 2012 season.

 

To call an offense with Luck, Ballard, Wayne. Fleener, Hilton, Allen "void" is absurd.

 

Pagano was handed a roster FAR from a train wreck. I can think of a bunch of teams who would kill for that roster.

In hindsight... Yes. At the time though.. Lots of unproven rookies on O and the D had such highlights as Cassius "I can't turn my neck" Vaughan and Tom Z.

As for the offensive line that year....

The point is the FO did a good job building that roster from the position they are in so isn't that to their credit. Remember Pagano played a large part in Reggie coming back and signing up Arians.

[Moopsiepuffs]

In hindsight... Yes.

[SteelCityColt]

Well we are talking about hindsight, aren't we?

 

This is 2014, and SouthWest1 says that the 2012 roster was a "train wreck". That is what this discussion has been about.

 

Of course it is hindsight, it happened two years ago.

 

The fact they were unproven BEFORE that season doesn't change how they performed DURING that season.

 

tl;dr not a train wreck

They also massively over performed on their Pythagorean expectations that season, there was a reason we we considered the luckiest team that season.

Degree of semantics, I won't speak for Southwest but I assume he means the situation the new FO inherited was a train wreck...not the roster they built.

[SteelCityColt]

Well we are talking about hindsight, aren't we?

 

This is 2014, and SouthWest1 says that the 2012 roster was a "train wreck". That is what this discussion has been about.

 

Of course it is hindsight, it happened two years ago.

 

The fact they were unproven BEFORE that season doesn't change how they performed DURING that season.

 

tl;dr not a train wreck

Btw wouldn't the above point towards good coaching.... Or at the least good drafting.

I mean that's what we're talking right, how awful our FO and coaching staff is?

[Moopsiepuffs]

I mean that's what we're talking right, how awful our FO and coaching staff is?

[SteelCityColt]

This is a thread about Pagano as far as I know.

 

I think everyone would acknowledge that Grigson did a great job prior to 2012, handing Pagano a non-train wreck of a roster ;)

Because Pagano had no input into it.... Like I said he was the man who brought Reggie back for one.

[Moopsiepuffs]

Because Pagano had no input into it.... Like I said he was the man who brought Reggie back for one.

[SteelCityColt]

I'm not arguing that. You are further proving my point that the 2012 roster was not a train wreck.

No.. But the situation prior to it was. 8 players under contract, that's a serious clean out.

[Moopsiepuffs]

No.. But the situation prior to it was. 8 players under contract, that's a serious clean out.

 

Yep, as I said earlier, things weren't looking too great BEFORE the 2012 season. Different story when the roster was filled.

[SteelCityColt]

Yep, as I said earlier, things weren't looking too great BEFORE the 2012 season. Different story when the roster was filled.

So semantics I think then on as to where you class "2012" starting. Hey ho, so Pagano as a rookie coach and an empty roster did pretty well with Grigs to put together a competitive team really? Considering the cap restrictions at the time to boot.

[Moopsiepuffs]

So semantics I think then on as to where you class "2012" starting. Hey ho, so Pagano as a rookie coach and an empty roster did pretty well with Grigs to put together a competitive team really? Considering the cap restrictions at the time to boot.

 

It's not really semantics though, is it?

 

If I say, "the Colts had a pretty good team in 2012, didn't they?"

 

and you reply, "Bro! They only had like 8 players in 2012, they didn't even have a quarterback!"

 

That is a little more than semantics.

 

If you were to type into Google "Indianapolis Colts roster 2012", I'm sure you would find more than 8 players. I'm sure you would find Andrew Luck and the rest of them.

[SteelCityColt]

It's not really semantics though, is it?

 

If I say, "the Colts had a pretty good team in 2012, didn't they?"

 

and you reply, "Bro! They only had like 8 players in 2012, they didn't even have a quarterback!"

 

That is a little more than semantics.

 

If you were to type into Google "Indianapolis Colts roster 2012", I'm sure you would find more than 8 players. I'm sure you would find Andrew Luck and the rest of them.

Sigh, your whole argument was that the roster Pagano inherited was stacked... Let's rephrase the question, when Pagano got the job, who was on his roster on day one..

If you Google the roster you'll get the final roster (say for example Davis) and that's not what we have been discussing.

[Moopsiepuffs]

Sigh, your whole argument was that the roster Pagano inherited was stacked... Let's rephrase the question, when Pagano got the job, who was on his roster on day one..

If you Google the roster you'll get the final roster (say for example Davis) and that's not what we have been discussing.

 

Yep, let's rephrase the question 100-posts deep to suit your argument

[antipatriot]

I am actually of the opinion this team has suffered due to coaching hires since before PMoney.  Dungy was a defensive minded coach who was way to conservative, Caldwell was ultra conservative and still is just look at the lions, and I think the defensive minded Pagano is also holding this team back.  I said it before and I will say it again when we hired Pagano we really should have hired Arians but most will say hindsight is 20/20.

 

However in my humble opinion this should be the last year for Pagano and Irsay should look for a more offensive minded head coach who will hire a strong D coordinator.  I just dont see the adjustments during the game and I dont see that we game plan well.  I could be completely wrong on all of this but I think we are mostly out coached and are currently very lucky our division foes are not real good right now.  But in case people havent noticed as the season has gone on all the teams in our division have gotten better, maybe not in the win loss column but just take a look we are not as far ahead as many would have us believe.

 

I am not a believer in a lot of quick turn over because continuity is usually better but I think in this case we got it wrong with our coaching staff.

 

As others have said great guy, probably a great coordinator but not a great head coach.  We also suffer with our D coordinator.

 

All that said GO COLTS

[SteelCityColt]

Yep, let's rephrase the question 100-posts deep to suit your argument

I'm rephrasing it to better suit your orginal statement... In that Pagano didn't inherit a train wreck when he took the job, It's just not a true statement, the 100 posts or so have been spent battling your obstinacy and hair splitting. The players you brought up as examples were not on the roster he inherited... I don't see where the confusion is. It's not just me who's been trying to point this out to you. The saying if you think everyone else is wrong....

As I said you arguement could be seen as a positive for Pagano because he had a hand in bringing some of those players on board in 2012. We massively overachieved in 2012 all things considered

[Moopsiepuffs]

I'm rephrasing it to better suit your orginal statement... In that Pagano didn't inherit a train wreck when he took the job, It's just not a true statement, the 100 posts or so have been spent battling your obstinacy and hair splitting. The players you brought up as examples were not on the roster he inherited... I don't see where the confusion is. It's not just me who's been trying to point this out to you. The saying if you think everyone else is wrong....

As I said you arguement could be seen as a positive for Pagano because he had a hand in bringing some of those players on board in 2012. We massively overachieved in 2012 all things considered

[Surge89]

I am actually of the opinion this team has suffered due to coaching hires since before PMoney. Dungy was a defensive minded coach who was way to conservative, Caldwell was ultra conservative and still is just look at the lions, and I think the defensive minded Pagano is also holding this team back. I said it before and I will say it again when we hired Pagano we really should have hired Arians but most will say hindsight is 20/20.

However in my humble opinion this should be the last year for Pagano and Irsay should look for a more offensive minded head coach who will hire a strong D coordinator. I just dont see the adjustments during the game and I dont see that we game plan well. I could be completely wrong on all of this but I think we are mostly out coached and are currently very lucky our division foes are not real good right now. But in case people havent noticed as the season has gone on all the teams in our division have gotten better, maybe not in the win loss column but just take a look we are not as far ahead as many would have us believe.

I am not a believer in a lot of quick turn over because continuity is usually better but I think in this case we got it wrong with our coaching staff.

As others have said great guy, probably a great coordinator but not a great head coach. We also suffer with our D coordinator.

All that said GO COLTS

You think we need an offensive HC? I juse see our problems more defensive/attitude related than offense.

[crazycolt1]

So you want to call a roster a "train wreck" before a game has been played? Before the draft has taken place? Before Free Agency? That's just dumb.

 

The 2012 roster is the roster that played during the 2012 season. How the team looked at the end of 2011 has nothing to do with anything.

This is a thread about Pagano as far as I know.

 

I think everyone would acknowledge that Grigson did a great job prior to 2012, handing Pagano a non-train wreck of a roster ;)

So now you call someone dumb because they have a different opinion that you? Just because you have an opinion don't automatically make it right. One of your things is there is no debate at all with you. You make it clear if another poster don't agree with you, you call them or consider them dumb. You are rude and obnoxious. Nothing is a debate with you because it turns into an argument.

[antipatriot]

You think we need an offensive HC? I juse see our problems more defensive/attitude related than offense.

My point was if we were to have a change at the HC position we should consider going down a different road than the one we have before just because we would have an offensive coach doesnt mean wouldnt have a great defence or an attitude to go with it.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

[crazycolt1]

My point was if we were to have a change at the HC position we should consider going down a different road than the one we have before just because we would have an offensive coach doesnt mean wouldnt have a great defence or an attitude to go with it.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

Don't mean to step on anyone's toes but the Colts have the #1 offense in the NFL. That's more than the Broncos, Patriots, Packers and any other team. Bradshaw was one of the better RBs in the league and will be hard to replace. The Colts right now have the same or better record than 21 other teams in the NFL. Calling for a coaching change is not the answer.

[pacolts56]

I'm just curious

Do you believe Chuck is a good/great coach?

I think hes a decent coach, but sometimes he does things that make me shake my head. I'm just curious as to what most of you guys think about him...

Well, it's impossible to argue his results haven't been good....keeping in mind that its more about the players, and that "great" label usually only sticks around as long as great players do. We won't know the answer to "great" until several O-line and D-line/ILB/Safety spots are developed and/or upgraded and Super Bowls happen for us.

 

But IMO, Grigson, Pagano and the staff should get another two full seasons before any discussion of changing directions is reasonable. Two 11-5 playoff seasons with what looks like a third on the way earns you that.

 

And while that might sound insane to some posters here....keep in mind that by the standards of some who've ripped Pagano even to the point of calling for his firing for God knows what retread....here's a list of some Super Bowl winning HCs of the past that would have been fired after their 3rd season.....

 

Tom Landry

Chuck Noll

John Madden

Jimmy Johnson

Bill Parcells

 

Does this mean Chuck Pagano will rise to the level of these HCs? Or Grigson to the level of those team's GMs?

 

No it doesn't.

 

But none of them had the successful 3-year start to their HC/GM careers that Pagano and Grigson have either....and they were allowed to grow with the team THROUGH their mistakes and finally cash in their efforts for Super Bowls.

[coltkingABC]

He's an OK coach, he may win 2 SB titles with Luck.

[Johnny colt]

You're over hyping the 2012 roster. It wasn't as good as you say it was. Without Luck, the 2012 team wins maybe 4 games, if that.

 

Yeah sure, whatever you say.

If you think Luck didn't play a big part in those 11 wins, then clearly you did not watch a game from 2012. The O Line was atricious, the D line outside of Redding was pretty bad. Our linebacker play outside of Mathis, was average at best. Our secondary was OK but nothing special.

Quit over hyping that roster. Its nonsense.

You are downplaying that roster on purpose.Luck by the way has a team he plays with.He doesn't win games,he contributes .That roster was not a train wreck.No way.

[GOCOLTS_ROLLTIDE]

I think he gets a bad rep around here because he doesn't always coach perfectly. Tony Dungy is treated like a god coach and I wasn't on the forum back then, but did anyone think he was a suspect coach when the team gave up 100 yards every single game before he went on to win a super bowl?

we won because of Bob Sanders. .. No question

[GOCOLTS_ROLLTIDE]

All he needs to do is work his personnel better. . I love his passion, he's genuine, family oriented, cares about the players on and off the field, I love the fact he'll actually chew the refs tail for crappy calls, and he's not a sideline statue ultimately the adjusting is on the coordinators.. This is only his 2nd yr on the job give him more time

[RockThatBlue]

You are downplaying that roster on purpose.Luck by the way has a team he plays with.He doesn't win games,he contributes .That roster was not a train wreck.No way.

I never said it was a train wreck. But it certainty wasn't good by any means.

[antipatriot]

Don't mean to step on anyone's toes but the Colts have the #1 offense in the NFL. That's more than the Broncos, Patriots, Packers and any other team. Bradshaw was one of the better RBs in the league and will be hard to replace. The Colts right now have the same or better record than 21 other teams in the NFL. Calling for a coaching change is not the answer.