Is Brady's arm 'shot'?

[amfootball]

ok, but what does that have to do with the current situation?

You tell me. You responded to me about Manning have a more recent ring than Brady so that was the natural response.

[jvan1973]

You tell me. You responded to me about Manning have a more recent ring than Brady so that was the natural response.

Actually you were the one that initially brought Manning up.

[amfootball]

Actually you were the one that initially brought Manning up.

No I wasn't. Check the thread. He was brought in by BlueShoe, Clem-dog and then Bond. I was responding to Bond.

[amfootball]

That is where we disagree. I do not think Brady ever wins a Super Bowl if he did not play for the Patriots. 

 

I don't believe he was ever great. Brady has a Great Coach - Maybe the best of all time. He has had Great Teams around him. But Brady, in my mind, has never been Great. 

Yeah those two league MVPs including the only unanimous MVP AND two super bowl MVPs and the best statistical season ever by a QB in 2007 until Manning's last year are all the marks of an average QB.

[Gramz]

Back to the Question of the Thread....

 

It appears so.   I have thought so since game one of this season, and last night was the worst.

[Coffeedrinker]

Did you so soon forget the Mathis hit from last year that caused Manning to have ankle issues for most of the season? yes, he would be toast with these hits. He relies heavily on his lower body now to get velocity on the ball. If he gets dinged low, he is in real trouble.

 

Why do you think Elway put that line around him and those skill players? He knows how to handle an aging QB, especially one that had four neck surgeries causing him to lose his strength in this throwing arm.

The Mathis hit proves your point wrong.  Manning, at the same age that Brady is now, got hit a lot early in the season and still won 13 games, threw 55 TDs and went to the SB.  Does not sound like refusing to take the field.  Maybe that's what happened last night... Brady didn't get benched because of poor play and the game being out of reach, he just refused to take the field.

[amfootball]

The Mathis hit proves your point wrong.  Manning, at the same age that Brady is now, got hit a lot early in the season and still won 13 games, threw 55 TDs and went to the SB.  Does not sound like refusing to take the field.  Maybe that's what happened last night... Brady didn't get benched because of poor play and the game being out of reach, he just refused to take the field.

If you times the Mathis hit by 10 then you have Manning on IR. Brady has been getting hit like that all season.

[jvan1973]

No I wasn't. Check the thread. He was brought in by BlueShoe, Clem-dog and then Bond. I was responding to Bond.

bond didnt mention manning in the post you quoted

[jvan1973]

If you times the Mathis hit by 10 then you have Manning on IR. Brady has been getting hit like that all season.

please show me a video of even one hit that Brady had taken as nasty as nasty as the Mathis hit

[amfootball]

bond didnt mention manning in the post you quoted

Huh? yes he did. Here is his quote,

No he won't. He will teach Amendola, Lafell and other WRs how to run routes and the offense will just be fine.

 

The "He" he is referencing is Manning from the Clem-dog quote Bond quoted,

"Those early 2000 Patriot teams are long gone. Brady is essentially in the middle of a rebuild now, so of course he's gonna struggle. Put Peyton on that team right now and he will struggle too.

[amfootball]

please show me a video of even one hit that Brady had taken as nasty as nasty as the Mathis hit

Watch any of the last four games ...

[sweetsurrender]

That is where we disagree. I do not think Brady ever wins a Super Bowl if he did not play for the Patriots. 

 

I don't believe he was ever great. Brady has a Great Coach - Maybe the best of all time. He has had Great Teams around him. But Brady, in my mind, has never been Great. 

Wow. Are you for real man or just blinded by hate? I get you don't like the Pats as a Colts fan as neither do I but this comment is just ignorant. Brady is one of the greats of all time. Do you also think Montana was average because of his team and coach?

[jvan1973]

Watch any of the last four games ...

He hasnt taken a hit like this this season. Mathis held his arms and drove him into the ground

[amfootball]

He hasnt taken a hit like this this season. Mathis held his arms and drove him into the ground

Brady has taken a ton of huge hits. The culmination of hits would have Manning out. No doubt about it. Like I said, there is a reason why Elway built the team around him the way he has. You have to handle an aging, surgically repaired QB differently.

[Coffeedrinker]

If you times the Mathis hit by 10 then you have Manning on IR. Brady has been getting hit like that all season.

Oh my word, you are such a whiner.  The Pats oline certainly looks bad but Brady has not been getting hit any more or any harder than most of QBs in the NFL.  And to suggest that an iron man of the NFL would give up if he were in Brady's situation is asinine beyond belief, even from a Patriots fan.

[jvan1973]

Brady has taken a ton of huge hits. The culmination of hits would have Manning out. No doubt about it. Like I said, there is a reason why Elway built the team around him the way he has. You have to handle an aging, surgically repaired QB differently.

Manning played with a broken jaw. He would be fine He audibles out of five step drop when he knows the blitz is coming.

[amfootball]

Oh my word, you are such a whiner.  The Pats oline certainly looks bad but Brady has not been getting hit any more or any harder than most of QBs in the NFL.  And to suggest that an iron man of the NFL would give up if he were in Brady's situation is asinine beyond belief, even from a Patriots fan.

Brady won't survive the season at this rate either. He was already hurt in practice to start the season no doubt from a defensive lineman getting a free shot at him.

 

And this isn't about Brady compared to other QBs. He can't absorb the hits  like Luck or Kaepernick could right now. He is 37 not 24. He has taken a lot of hits over his career. This isn't whining. This is the truth. Too much turnover at the one area you can't afford to be weak on with an older QB who is not mobile.

[amfootball]

Manning played with a broken jaw. He would be fine He audibles out of five step drop when he knows the blitz is coming.

Teams are getting pressure with just four. They are not blitzing. Manning's biggest issue in the SB was the Hawks pressuring him consistently with just four rushers. Brady has been facing that all season.

[The Old Crow]

I heard the talking heads today and they actually made some good points. They compared Denver and NE with relatively short windows with Manning and Brady, and how Denver was getting everyone they could to help Manning in this window, while Belichick is still trading back, and playing for the future, while the future is now , for Brady. Interesting

[amfootball]

I heard the talking heads today and they actually made some good points. They compared Denver and NE with relatively short windows with Manning and Brady, and how Denver was getting everyone they could to help Manning in this window, while Belichick is still trading back, and playing for the future, while the future is now , for Brady. Interesting

Yeah but that has been true their entire careers. Polian did the same thing with Manning as Elway is doing and the Pats have always traded back and built for the future as well as the present. The issue is, Bill used to be able to either draft or get FAs that filled the needs of the star players he let go. Right now he has missed just too much. Amendola has been injured or non-existent, we inactivated both of our second year WRs last night - Dobson and Thompkins. And of course has some bad luck with Hernandez. And apparently the D still needs work which has been the case since 2006. As I have said on this forum over and over, Bill the HC has covered for Bill the GM more often than not but right now this team does not have the talent to compete. I don't think it is a philosophy issue as how can you argue with Bill's approach but too many factors all hitting at once. Brady is 37, their long time Oline coach retired, and too many misses on players.

[The Old Crow]

Yeah but that has been true their entire careers. Polian did the same thing with Manning as Elway is doing and the Pats have always traded back and built for the future as well as the present. The issue is, Bill used to be able to either draft or get FAs that filled the needs of the star players he let go. Right now he has missed just too much. Amendola has been injured or non-existent, we inactivated both of our second year WRs last night - Dobson and Thompkins. And of course has some bad luck with Hernandez. And apparently the D still needs work which has been the case since 2006. As I have said on this forum over and over, Bill the HC has covered for Bill the GM more often than not but right now this team does not have the talent to compete. I don't think it is a philosophy issue as how can you argue with Bill's approach but too many factors all hitting at once. Brady is 37, their long time Oline coach retired, and too many misses on players.

They hit on those points also. I think it was Chris Carter talking about Bill the GM letting down Bill the coach. They also talked about the loss of top assistant coaches to other teams that hamper player development. That has some merit , as I've seen the Ravens lose a lot of their top coaches.

You may have a year like we did last year, 8-8 ish, but the good thing is you are in a crappy division where you still may be able to get in the playoffs. Anyway, it's still early, maybe you can right the ship. I would like to see you right it against the Bengals !

[amfootball]

They hit on those points also. I think it was Chris Carter talking about Bill the GM letting down Bill the coach. They also talked about the loss of top assistant coaches to other teams that hamper player development. That has some merit , as I've seen the Ravens lose a lot of their top coaches.

You may have a year like we did last year, 8-8 ish, but the good thing is you are in a crappy division where you still may be able to get in the playoffs. Anyway, it's still early, maybe you can right the ship. I would like to see you right it against the Bengals !

It is possible too that it is just one horrific game against a very tough team to play on the road. I do think they fix some things and hopefully have better energy at home vs the Bengals.

[jvan1973]

Yeah but that has been true their entire careers. Polian did the same thing with Manning as Elway is doing and the Pats have always traded back and built for the future as well as the present. The issue is, Bill used to be able to either draft or get FAs that filled the needs of the star players he let go. Right now he has missed just too much. Amendola has been injured or non-existent, we inactivated both of our second year WRs last night - Dobson and Thompkins. And of course has some bad luck with Hernandez. And apparently the D still needs work which has been the case since 2006. As I have said on this forum over and over, Bill the HC has covered for Bill the GM more often than not but right now this team does not have the talent to compete. I don't think it is a philosophy issue as how can you argue with Bill's approach but too many factors all hitting at once. Brady is 37, their long time Oline coach retired, and too many misses on players.

Polian did the same thing Elway is doing? No, not even close. Polian didn't bring on high priced free agents EVER. Elway is all in for the next two seasons because he knows when Manning retires the rebuild begins. Polian and elway couldn't be further apart in their approach

[amfootball]

Polian did the same thing Elway is doing? No, not even close. Polian didn't bring on high priced free agents EVER. Elway is all in for the next two seasons because he knows when Manning retires the rebuild begins. Polian and elway couldn't be further apart in their approach

I meant building the team around Manning and the O. Yes, they went about it differently.

[The Old Crow]

It is possible too that it is just one horrific game against a very tough team to play on the road. I do think they fix some things and hopefully have better energy at home vs the Bengals.

It reminded me of our opening game against Denver. I hope you fix things against the Bengals, as a matter of fact, I'm counting on it .

[amfootball]

It reminded me of our opening game against Denver. I hope you fix things against the Bengals, as a matter of fact, I'm counting on it .

I hope so. Brady looks really depressed out there like he expects things won't work. I hate to read into body language but just no fire from him from the opening kick.

[Yehoodi]

That is where we disagree. I do not think Brady ever wins a Super Bowl if he did not play for the Patriots. 

 

I don't believe he was ever great. Brady has a Great Coach - Maybe the best of all time. He has had Great Teams around him. But Brady, in my mind, has never been Great. 

 

What is Bill B.'s record as a head coach outside of coaching with Brady . .  .

 

Take a look at the 5-7 years preceding the arrival of Brady in NE and Manning in indy and tell me what the difference is in the two teams?  I do not see any significant difference.  Do you?  And if so please explain yourself.

[Yehoodi]

It reminded me of our opening game against Denver. I hope you fix things against the Bengals, as a matter of fact, I'm counting on it .

 

We will have to wait and see . . . we generally fix things thought out the year . . . time will tell . . . maybe this will be an off year for the pats although things looked more promising coming into the season.  If we can get the Oline set better and another WR to get separation we should be okay . . . I got to think the D will be okay . . .

[fvantagio]

Manning would be out injured and maybe in retirement. He can't take the hits anymore that Brady has been absorbing.

 

If you times the Mathis hit by 10 then you have Manning on IR. Brady has been getting hit like that all season.

Not only is that pure speculation, but I find it ironic that you are using a hit on Peyton to explain how bad Brady is getting hit. Perhaps you should show me the seemingly countless huge hits from this year on Brady that you have alluded to. Using a previous hit on Peyton as an example to say "this hit would have hurt Peyton" is probably the most backwards logic ive come across in a while.

[amfootball]

Not only is that pure speculation, but I find it ironic that you are using a hit on Peyton to explain how bad Brady is getting hit. Perhaps you should show me the seemingly countless huge hits from this year on Brady that you have alluded to. Using a previous hit on Peyton as an example to say "this hit would have hurt Peyton" is probably the most backwards logic ive come across in a while.

Just watch any of the past four games ... I would drain all the memory of the site if I posted all the videos.

 

I am not talking about one hit but the cumulative effect of taking so many hits. I don't think  Brady will survive at this rate either. I am surprised he has lasted this long. He started the season injured from a practice hit.

[Yehoodi]

Polian did the same thing Elway is doing? No, not even close. Polian didn't bring on high priced free agents EVER. Elway is all in for the next two seasons because he knows when Manning retires the rebuild begins. Polian and elway couldn't be further apart in their approach

 

I think the point amfootball was saying is that Polian put a lot of team stock in and around manning where the Pats spread the stock out over the 53 man roster . . . Polian did draft and most importantly retain high level talent in the skilled position on offense . . so if Polian retains a Reggie Wayne, as opposed to letting him go and bring in a Larry Fitzgerald, there is no difference from the mindset to where the place your team stock . . . the fact that the latter might do it through FA as opposed to retain team stock there is no difference in that respect . . .

[jvan1973]

I think the point amfootball was saying is that Polian put a lot of team stock in and around manning where the Pats spread the stock out over the 53 man roster . . . Polian did draft and most importantly retain high level talent in the skilled position on offense . . so if Polian retains a Reggie Wayne, as opposed to letting him go and bring in a Larry Fitzgerald, there is no difference from the mindset to where the place your team stock . . . the fact that the latter might do it through FA as opposed to retain team stock there is no difference in that respect . . .

He never brought in guys like TJ ward , Talib or Demarcus Ware. So the premise is still incorrect

[Yehoodi]

He never brought in guys like TJ ward , Talib or Demarcus Ware. So the premise is still incorrect

 

no he did not, but as the premise goes he did not let go of Mathis and Freeney . . . out goes Dumervil and in comes Ware and so on . . . the fact that some one "brings" some one in and another retains a great player does make them any different some look to they roster to retain players others let players go and grab others . . . if both have great players at key positions, it does not matter what they do or how they do it . . . both Elway and Polian work on the premise of having big names whereas the Pats spread the stock over the 53 man roster . . .

[Shane Bond]

No I wasn't. Check the thread. He was brought in by BlueShoe, Clem-dog and then Bond. I was responding to Bond.

I didnt

[amfootball]

I didnt

lol. I didn't say you started but that I was responding to your post.

[Shane Bond]

If you times the Mathis hit by 10 then you have Manning on IR. Brady has been getting hit like that all season.

Its a QB skill to throw the ball earlier. Not everyone has it. Can't start blaming others for it.

[amfootball]

Its a QB skill to throw the ball earlier. Not everyone has it. Can't start blaming others for it.

You can't throw if no one is getting separation. Brady has one of the fastest releases from snap of the ball to when it comes out of hands in the history of the league. Just no time and no one open. But he has missed too.

[CR91]

anyone else enjoy watching brady not get his famous 30 min pocket

[Shane Bond]

You can't throw if no one is getting separation. Brady has one of the fastest releases from snap of the ball to when it comes out of hands in the history of the league. Just no time and no one open. But he has missed too.

Figure out. Adjust. Adapt.

[Cynjin]

no he did not, but as the premise goes he did not let go of Mathis and Freeney . . . out goes Dumervil and in comes Ware and so on . . . the fact that some one "brings" some one in and another retains a great player does make them any different some look to they roster to retain players others let players go and grab others . . . if both have great players at key positions, it does not matter what they do or how they do it . . . both Elway and Polian work on the premise of having big names whereas the Pats spread the stock over the 53 man roster . . .

  

lol. I didn't say you started but that I was responding to your post.

What has happened to the Pats Oline? I know they traded away Mankins, but the Pats Oline has usually been very solid, it looks poor this season. I figured you two would know better than I would, just curious.