Could someone explain our Safety scheme?

[Black-Vell]

Was doing a little research on the positions it is shaping up that we will be targeting in the draft and got hung up on what we need due to what we were doing.

 

Ok, 1st of all, whose scheme are we running in the secondary, C Pagano or the DEF coordinator's? It seemed to me that compared to most teams, our Safeties are flipped. A Bethea was our SS and was mostly in the box acting as run support and in coverage while L Landry played the single-high-safety. BUT, L Landry has always played the SS bone-crusher role and A Bethea has alway played as the deep over the top Safety. I mean come on, A Bethea was drafted into a Cover 2 scheme while L Landry was playing in the box in Rex Ryan's aggressive 2 shutdown CB system.

 

I admit that I do not watch other teams enough to know who else plays this reverse Safety scheme or if it was just a way to keep L Landry healthy by I guess protecting him from himself or what. BUT, I do see the problems it caused and am wondering how we will proceed now. It seems L Landry needs to be in the box attacking the LOS. His mentality is too aggressive to be running up from 12-15 yards back as the last line of DEF. Too many times I seen him run up, line someone up, only to get shook by a simple move in space for big gains. Let him play from closer up, scraping and catching these RB's still picking their way through the trenches where LL has the advantage.

 

I asked who scheme it was because its as simple to me as are we looking for E Reed or B Pollard? L Landry seems more like the B Pollard type so I would say E Reed. Which brings me to my overall issues when scouting. 1, if E Reed was on our roster we would know it, and 2, drafting him will be hard missing 59 picks.

 

Are we planning to be "very aggressive" in the draft? I have read about moving back, but what about moving up, twice? As it looks right now, if L Landry and G Toler was to very uncharacteristically miss a few games, it could get ugly without a top 2-3 Safety back there. Eric Berry was the 5th pick round 1, but E Reed was the 24th. Am I way off and just do not understand the scheme fully? Or will I feel better once I see what's out there for us to draft?  Thanks.

[21isSuperman]

I'm not sure if this is the answer, but perhaps they are more willing to drop Landry deep since he is faster than Bethea.  He would be able to cover those 12-15 yards faster than Bethea and (theoretically) make the tackle quicker.

 

Like you said, I'm curious whose defense this is between Pagano and Manusky.  Is it Pagano's from Baltimore?  Maybe a hybrid of the two?

[Black-Vell]

"Like you said, I'm curious whose defense this is between Pagano and Manusky.  Is it Pagano's from Baltimore?  Maybe a hybrid of the two?"

 

 

 

 

This is what I'm watching this year the most, what are we doing and why. Because it seems to me that the things we do the worse was suppose to be the foundation of the team. Stop the run and power run. While I'm fully aware of everything that has gone on with the team, I just really wanna see this thing on DEF resemble whatever it was suppose to. It seems like the welcome addition of A Jones and D Jackson have people 100% at ease with our run DEF. Ok, is it just me or do you think we still lack speed at #2 CB, ILB and OLB?

 

Back to whose scheme is it? It could be my flawed thinking, but I think it is extremely telling 2 specific games we lost this year. I want to win them all, but I especially wanted to beat ARI and SD. We were blown out in both. Losing to ARI says to me B Arians was legit and losing to SD says Manusky is not. Didn't we all of a sudden "open" the OFF up after getting touched up by ARI? Or maybey CIN, you get my point though. Whoever is running the DEF, its time to put up or get gone. I also hope this same confusion doesn't show up on OFF now that we have 2 OFF coordinators now also.

[21isSuperman]

"Like you said, I'm curious whose defense this is between Pagano and Manusky.  Is it Pagano's from Baltimore?  Maybe a hybrid of the two?"

 

 

 

 

This is what I'm watching this year the most, what are we doing and why. Because it seems to me that the things we do the worse was suppose to be the foundation of the team. Stop the run and power run. While I'm fully aware of everything that has gone on with the team, I just really wanna see this thing on DEF resemble whatever it was suppose to. It seems like the welcome addition of A Jones and D Jackson have people 100% at ease with our run DEF. Ok, is it just me or do you think we still lack speed at #2 CB, ILB and OLB?

 

Back to whose scheme is it? It could be my flawed thinking, but I think it is extremely telling 2 specific games we lost this year. I want to win them all, but I especially wanted to beat ARI and SD. We were blown out in both. Losing to ARI says to me B Arians was legit and losing to SD says Manusky is not. Didn't we all of a sudden "open" the OFF up after getting touched up by ARI? Or maybey CIN, you get my point though. Whoever is running the DEF, its time to put up or get gone. I also hope this same confusion doesn't show up on OFF now that we have 2 OFF coordinators now also.

I think speed is something you can never have enough of on defense.  I loved the speed on defense we had under Dungy, but of course that came with its own cons.

 

As for whose defense this is, I want to say Pagano's.  Signing Redding was a very important deal and he's been a big leader.  A big deal was made about how he could teach the defense to other guys.  Then there were lots of comparisons made between the Ravens defense and our defense (ie. there was a big discussion as to who would play the Suggs role in our defense).  So I want to say it's Pagano's defense, but then I'm not sure what role Manusky would play in it all.  Maybe they both run the same style of 3-4?

[Sova!]

I agree, the colts were a lot of fun to watch during the Dungy era... only when Bob Sanders was healthy. Without a special playmaker like Sanders, it was nerve wracking watching some of those games. Personally, I'd rather have an intimidating blue collar defense like Bal and Pit

[Defjamz26]

"Like you said, I'm curious whose defense this is between Pagano and Manusky.  Is it Pagano's from Baltimore?  Maybe a hybrid of the two?"

 

 

 

 

This is what I'm watching this year the most, what are we doing and why. Because it seems to me that the things we do the worse was suppose to be the foundation of the team. Stop the run and power run. While I'm fully aware of everything that has gone on with the team, I just really wanna see this thing on DEF resemble whatever it was suppose to. It seems like the welcome addition of A Jones and D Jackson have people 100% at ease with our run DEF. Ok, is it just me or do you think we still lack speed at #2 CB, ILB and OLB?

 

Back to whose scheme is it? It could be my flawed thinking, but I think it is extremely telling 2 specific games we lost this year. I want to win them all, but I especially wanted to beat ARI and SD. We were blown out in both. Losing to ARI says to me B Arians was legit and losing to SD says Manusky is not. Didn't we all of a sudden "open" the OFF up after getting touched up by ARI? Or maybey CIN, you get my point though. Whoever is running the DEF, its time to put up or get gone. I also hope this same confusion doesn't show up on OFF now that we have 2 OFF coordinators now also.

 

I've said before, I think we have no identity on offense or defense, which is why both units are inconsistent. That's been my  biggest area of impatience; how they keep selling us dreams that have yet to come to fruition. We are terrible in Run D and equally as bad at running the ball. In a lot of ways, this is the same Colts team from the Post Dungy area.

 

I think that's the issue though. Pagano is trying to just turn it into Baltimore lite instead of basing it around the personell. We don't have the worst defense in the league at all, but we could have the worst run 3-4 D in the league. I don't think this D has an identity one way or another. It's just a mixed bag

[coltsfanatic24]

Manusky and Pagano defensive schemes both used a FS that was more of a playmaker playing the deep half. Landry played a lot of deep half with Rex Ryan as well, i remember when we played the Jets he was making plays deep down field against Avery and Hilton. Landry is a hybrid safety can play either effectively, he just had a down year and dealt with injuries throughout the season. If he returns to form he can make the pro bowl again like he did with the Jets, he just has to be used correctly.

 

I'm really not concerned with our safeties, i think Landry, Howell, and a rookie safety would be good enough. I'm more concerned with Toler staying healthy and a consistent pass rush other then Mathis.

[Dustin]

Manusky and Pagano defensive schemes both used a FS that was more of a playmaker playing the deep half. Landry played a lot of deep half with Rex Ryan as well, i remember when we played the Jets he was making plays deep down field against Avery and Hilton. Landry is a hybrid safety can play either effectively, he just had a down year and dealt with injuries throughout the season. If he returns to form he can make the pro bowl again like he did with the Jets, he just has to be used correctly.

I'm really not concerned with our safeties, i think Landry, Howell, and a rookie safety would be good enough. I'm more concerned with Toler staying healthy and a consistent pass rush other then Mathis.

Landry didn't have a down year, he had a normal year by his standards. Getting burned in coverage, getting injured, and whiffing on tackles.

[ProblChld32]

I could be wrong but from what i remember Both Bethea and Landry swapped roles often, ive seen both play in the box last season. But i really do wish there was a more clear cut indication of the type of hybrid defense we run as i think Manusky and Pagano do huge influences on it. 

[CroatianColtsFan21]

...

 

Ok, 1st of all, whose scheme are we running in the secondary, C Pagano or the DEF coordinator's? It seemed to me that compared to most teams, our Safeties are flipped. A Bethea was our SS and was mostly in the box acting as run support and in coverage while L Landry played the single-high-safety. BUT, L Landry has always played the SS bone-crusher role and A Bethea has alway played as the deep over the top Safety. I mean come on, A Bethea was drafted into a Cover 2 scheme while L Landry was playing in the box in Rex Ryan's aggressive 2 shutdown CB system.

 

...

 

 

i would say that has to do more with bethea's decline, than our defensive schemes...

[Black-Vell]

i would say that has to do more with bethea's decline, than our defensive schemes...

I don't see A Bethea declining as much as him playing a bigger role than he started. A Bethea was the deep Safety in our Cover 2 scheme, last 2 years he's been the SS in the box. We are lucky he even could do that. SF doesn't see a decline, and A Bethea is filling big shoes for them. 

[dgambill]

I've said before, I think we have no identity on offense or defense, which is why both units are inconsistent. That's been my  biggest area of impatience; how they keep selling us dreams that have yet to come to fruition. We are terrible in Run D and equally as bad at running the ball. In a lot of ways, this is the same Colts team from the Post Dungy area.

 

I think that's the issue though. Pagano is trying to just turn it into Baltimore lite instead of basing it around the personell. We don't have the worst defense in the league at all, but we could have the worst run 3-4 D in the league. I don't think this D has an identity one way or another. It's just a mixed bag

I agree a ton with that...we definately need to address the LOS issues better...both running and stopping it...but one thing about having our own identity..is that we have our own players. We might be Baltimore lite because lets be honest....we don't have

A.LEWIS

B.NGATA

C.SUGGS

D.REED

E.KRUGER

F.POLLARD

G.CORNERS THEY'VE HAD

H.OVERALL DL DEPTH

 

Nobody has fielded a team like that EXCEPT Baltimore. Without the TALENT...we aren't going to have the results. We have good players and we keep adding...liking who we added this year to that front seven...but everyone is Baltimore lite compared to that defense of a few years back...including themselves lol. I think we are building to something similar...it takes time...and most importantly...it takes drafting HOF talent...and that may never happen who knows??

[throwing BBZ]

IMO, last season on D we couldn`t really have an Identity playing the likes of Franklin, Moala, Mathews, Angerer, Conner, Sheppard, so much and with RJF and Toler injured.

Those D-Lineman killed us.
 Arthur Jones will FIX some things against the run, Chapman will be in there much more, and Hughes should be ready to HELP.
With Redding, RJF, Pendleton in the rotation it should be a Big upgrade over last season.
 Walden was terrible the 1st half of the season but really shored it up later on. Werner should improve, and Mathis will get his.
 This Group has the POTENTIAL to be Very Good and make life for Everyone playing behind them much more productive.

 

 I think that Identity will come together This Season!

[AntonMcG]

Defensive schemes are not just plug-and-play like so many think. Pagano has stated multiple times that he wants versatile Safeties that can interchange on roles... that is very much embedded in this scheme.

 

It is not Baltimore's, or San Diego's or Pagano's and Manusky's scheme, it is a a combination of those things with a little bit of 'keeping up with the times' thrown in for good measure. So just because these dual-role safeties were not a staple part of Pagano's schemes of the past, does not mean it is not now.

[Defjamz26]

IMO, last season on D we couldn`t really have an Identity playing the likes of Franklin, Moala, Mathews, Angerer, Conner, Sheppard, so much and with RJF and Toler injured.

Those D-Lineman killed us.

 Arthur Jones will FIX some things against the run, Chapman will be in there much more, and Hughes should be ready to HELP.

With Redding, RJF, Pendleton in the rotation it should be a Big upgrade over last season.

 Walden was terrible the 1st half of the season but really shored it up later on. Werner should improve, and Mathis will get his.

 This Group has the POTENTIAL to be Very Good and make life for Everyone playing behind them much more productive.

 

 I think that Identity will come together This Season!

 

The thing is that you also need consistency to form an identity. A lot of the guys are stop gap guys on short contracts. It's not going to matter if we find an identity and then like 3 of the guys leaves because football is a business after all and you can't keep everybody. I think it'll take 2 good drafts back to back to really get identity. We need to find a core first. Like Seattle has its secondary, with the core being Sherman, Chancellor, and Thomas. The Bengals have theirs in their D-Line as do the Jets.

 

Once we get a core of young, talented players on one unit, then we'll have identity. But it's not going to work if we bring in this corner here for 2 years, this safety on a 1 year deal, etc...because it will always be unbalanced. We need to get a solid unit, identify the key players, and let them grow together.